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Did Aimians fight in the Desolations?


Higgs-Boson Spren

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I highly doubt I’m the first to propose this, but in the Prologue and in several flashbacks depicting Desolations, there are references to large piles of burning Kremlings. We know that the Aimians are not very common on Roshar, and so it would stand to reason that few would know much about them. So it would be easy to mistake a pile of Hoardlings as Kremlings, especially when they’re burning. Do we know if the Aimians fought in the Desolations? And if so then were they fighting alongside or against the humans?

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Yup, in Edgedancer Arclo the Sleepless told Lift that the ancient Radiants counted them among their allies.

Burning heaps of cremlings are mentioned in both the Prelude by Kalak and in Dalinar's vision. So they definitely fought in the Desolations.

Edited by Honorless
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Another thing to note in the prelude is that there were three types of blood on the battlefield. I think they were red, orange, and violet. One clearly human, one clearly Singer, but the other was definitely non-native. And Sleepless are implied to be from beyond Roshar ...

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24 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

Another thing to note in the prelude is that there were three types of blood on the battlefield. I think they were red, orange, and violet. One clearly human, one clearly Singer, but the other was definitely non-native. And Sleepless are implied to be from beyond Roshar ...

I could be very mistaken but I thought the Violet blood indicated one of the crustacean races and that they'd mentioned in the vision flashbacks that they used some of them as domesticated beasts in war.  

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6 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I could be very mistaken but I thought the Violet blood indicated one of the crustacean races and that they'd mentioned in the vision flashbacks that they used some of them as domesticated beasts in war.  

That could be it, but if I remember correctly the noted thing about Singers is that their blood looks and smells the same as Chasmfiend blood, and so implying that Singer blood and native life on Roshar all have the same blood. I know many other creatures on Earth have unique types of blood, but I think the three types are to represent three different species from three different worlds.

 

[Edit] Okay, looks like I might be wrong - Chasmfiend blood is violet. Though it still could be that Sleepless also have violet blood, as even though they probably aren't native to the planet they do breed their individual hordlings to match specific traits. Still, this does mean I might have that part wrong.

Edited by Ixthos
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2 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

That could be it, but if I remember correctly the noted thing about Singers is that their blood looks and smells the same as Chasmfiend blood, and so implying that Singer blood and native life on Roshar all have the same blood. I know many other creatures on Earth have unique types of blood, but I think the three types are to represent three different species from three different worlds.

I could buy that.  The symmetry-lover in me would then immediately jump to the conclusion that they are actually native to Braize (perhaps the original inhabitants displaced by Odium being bound there?).

Personally I dont think the Dysians are a race native to the Physical Realm at all, I think they are a type of spren that possesses a large group of specially bred but otherwise mundane cremlings.  They'd be sort of a combination between the Fused and Nergaoul, in that they are a sentient possessing spirit from/In the Cognitive Realm but able to bond a large group simultaneously like Neragaoul.

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15 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I could buy that.  The symmetry-lover in me would then immediately jump to the conclusion that they are actually native to Braize (perhaps the original inhabitants displaced by Odium being bound there?).

Personally I dont think the Dysians are a race native to the Physical Realm at all, I think they are a type of spren that possesses a large group of specially bred but otherwise mundane cremlings.  They'd be sort of a combination between the Fused and Nergaoul, in that they are a sentient possessing spirit from/In the Cognitive Realm but able to bond a large group simultaneously like Neragaoul.

Could be :-) and that does make sense, though that does then raise the question about the Siah Aimians. My own theory is that - because they are important in later Cosmere stories - they actually are from another star cluster, aliens to the entire region of space. Though that is very much off topic, and in the wrong part of the forum ;-) if they are from Braize and native to the Rosharan system, they would almost certainly have a strong link to Cultivation due to their own cultivation of their hordlings.

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4 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

Could be :-) and that does make sense, though that does then raise the question about the Siah Aimians. My own theory is that - because they are important in later Cosmere stories - they actually are from another star cluster, aliens to the entire region of space. Though that is very much off topic, and in the wrong part of the forum ;-) if they are from Braize and native to the Rosharan system, they would almost certainly have a strong link to Cultivation due to their own cultivation of their hordlings.

Just to be clear, are you talking about the Dysian Amians (the Hordling hive beings) or the Saih Aimians, the immortal semi-shapeshifters like Axies?  Per WOB they are not related to each other beyond the whole cohabitation on Aimia thing.

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2 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Just to be clear, are you talking about the Dysian Amians (the Hordling hive beings) or the Saih Aimians, the immortal semi-shapeshifters like Axies?  Per WOB they are not related to each other beyond the whole cohabitation on Aimia thing.

Both :-) first part is that if the Dysian Aimians are from Braize then where to the Siah come from. Second part is the idea the Dysian's are from outside the Cosmere

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Just now, Ixthos said:

Both :-) first part is that if the Dysian Aimians are from Braize then where to the Siah come from. Second part is the idea the Dysian's are from outside the Cosmere

Ah, cool.  I very strongly doubt htey are literally from outside the Cosmere cluster, simply because Brandon has said that for storytelling purposes he plans to keep it entirely contained.  That being said, they could be aliens from some hidden corner of it and accomplish the same storytelling role.  

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I mean, if they weren't Sleepless, we have to question why in the world there were piles of burning insects on a battlefield. Like it makes sense if those insects were a combatant, but otherwise we get that for some reason, somebody took a break from the battle to pile up a bunch of bugs and then set them on fire. 

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There's an even clearer sign that Aimians fought in the Desolations in the flashbacks. 

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There were other things, of course. The giant broken stone figures. Parshmen wearing warform, with chitin armor and orange blood. One spot they passed had a whole heap of strange cremlings, burned and smoking. Who would have taken the time to pile up a thousand little crustaceans?

 

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9 hours ago, Higgs-Boson Spren said:

Oh I was thinking they were just somewhat similar in appearance. 

Err... complicated. Technically they are made of cremlings... now. But the hordelings, which is the term for describing the creatures, were bred to be like cremlings, which is very general word on Roshar to begin with.

The Sleepless can breed them till they evolve to more closely resemble critters from other Shardworlds.

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7 minutes ago, clockworkspider said:

Fair point.  I suppose it depends on what happens to a Dysian that loses most of their hordelings.  That, and piling them up and setting the stack on fire seems rather funereal.

That assumes that this was the majority... Which we have no idea how many hoardlings a Sleepless controls.

And I don't think that's a result of a funeral as much as the manner in which they died. 

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59 minutes ago, Calderis said:

That assumes that this was the majority... Which we have no idea how many hoardlings a Sleepless controls.

And I don't think that's a result of a funeral as much as the manner in which they died. 

Yup Agreed.. we don’t know how many they control and if there is even any crucial hoardlings that if die, the sleepless will die.. May be the ones that form the brain part of a sleepless but I am not sure.. In fact m, it is also possible that as long as one of the hoardlings survives, the sleepless is alive.. it might take them time to rebuild themselves to full strength but they would still survive.. 

I also like the idea that creeping is a general term that Rosharans use like they call every bird a chicken.. and sleepless can go to other Shardworlds and cultivate their insectoids as hoardlings..

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1 minute ago, The traveller said:

Yup Agreed.. we don’t know how many they control and if there is even any crucial hoardlings that if die, the sleepless will die.. May be the ones that form the brain part of a sleepless but I am not sure.. In fact m, it is also possible that as long as one of the hoardlings survives, the sleepless is alive.. it might take them time to rebuild themselves to full strength but they would still survive.. 

The only thing we have is fairly general. It implies that they aren't tied to any queen or brain style bug, but gives no idea of the total magnitude of them or what amount of parts is to little. 

It's one piece of a long WoB on the various means of immortality in the Cosmere, so here's a link to the whole, with the total relevant section quoted. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/182/#e3885

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Hive beings who are constantly losing individual members, but maintaining a persistent personality spread across all of them, immortal in that as long as too much of the hive isn't wiped out, the personality can persist. (The Sleepless.)

Which... In. Y mind anyways means that if the "bodies" that we see the Sleepless make are enough of the hive to kill them, then making them at all is pretty stupid. 

6 minutes ago, The traveller said:

I also like the idea that creeping is a general term that Rosharans use like they call every bird a chicken.. and sleepless can go to other Shardworlds and cultivate their insectoids as hoardlings

It is an even broader term then most. Seems to apply to what we would consider "bugs" and small crustaceans. 

Quote

Questioner

Are all Hordelings Cremlings and vise versa?

Brandon Sanderson

Cremling is a synonym in Roshar for both, insect and small crustation, right? And so you would see one and you would see that's a little crayfish. Cremling is not an exact term if that makes sense. It's like bug. The word "bug" people can use to mean a lot of different things.[...] So, yes, they look like Cremlings, because they've been bred to look like Cremlings, so they will not be noticed on Roshar, but there are Hordelings that do not look like Cremlings. But they would still be called a Cremling by the people on Roshar. The occasional people (?) used the word insect, 'cause that word does exist on Roshar. Usually make refers to like little flying bugs that you only find in the very far west of Roshar near the mountains, but yeah.

Leipzig Book Fair (March 24, 2017)

Which definitely implies they could look different and blend in on other worlds. 

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Arclo certainly had a whole bunch of Hordelings that weren't part of his humanoid facade- enough that I don't think that losing the 'body' would do irreparable damage to him.

But I do feel like killing a large proportion of the Hordelings should effectively kill the Sleepless. Like their memories and thoughts are all stored in cremling brains, so if they lose too many, they're lose their sense of self. 

And then maybe the surviving Hordelings would eventually make a new Sleepless, but it would be a Sleepless without many of the same memories or personality traits, so basically a different person for most purposes. 

 

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Just now, Gilphon said:

Arclo certainly had a whole bunch of Hordelings that weren't part of his humanoid facade- enough that I don't think that losing the 'body' would do irreparable damage to him.

But I do feel like killing a large proportion of the Hordelings should effectively kill the Sleepless. Like their memories and thoughts are all stored in cremling brains, so if they lose too many, they're lose their sense of self. 

I don't necessarily agree. I think that the Sleepless are far far more primarily Cognitive, and I don't think that the cremlings themselves are that important to their mental capacity in regards to memory. We've seen Cognitive beings with no body at all that have all of their memories intact. 

I do agree that killing enough of them will cause the personality to collapse, and I think that would basically end the Hive, cause the cremlings to be nothing more than individual cremlings... 

The two big issues here though are that 1) we don't have any idea how big an individual Sleepless is in numbers... Is their humanoid form 80% of the hive? 50%? 1%? And 2) how much needs to die for the Sleepless to end as an entity? 

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