PrinceGenocide

The broken one . Alternative title : How screwed Odium really is

32 posts in this topic

So I think the broken one is Adonalsium. It's an obvious conclusion , isn't it ?

What's the synonym for shattered ? That's right ,broken 

Yes , yes , it's too obvious and u have already thought of and rejected this but bear with me. I think it's more of a metaphor.

Like odium wants to be the only God right. That's why he's murdering other shards and maybe that was his motivation to shatter Adonalsium in the first place.

So now he finds himself not a god but a entity that has been bound to the Greater Rosharan system for millennia and he has been forced to invest there too , much to his chagrin. Then he's also realizing that killing Shards isn't really that easy as he thought. He was quick with Ambition and DnD , he must have thought it would be way easier after killing Dominion and Ambition whose intents clashed on the same frequency as his   . He must have thought the rest were easy prey that he would slash through them in little time and be the one God , but then he had to spend millennia killing honor but at the cost of got bound and he still had to lay dormant for a few more millennia and now he still has to deal with cultivation and even those splinters of honor are still fighting . His Victory is not assured and even if he does it will be difficult to uninvest himself from the system , assuming he actually can break the bounds , his Victory doesn't necessarily mean his freedom and by now other shards are wise to him , the last few millennia have been a great opportunity for them to learn how to deal with him and smart shards like endowment seem to have even constructed contingencies/weapons  to deal with him. Shards like autonomy with thier multiple daughter shards  will be harrowing to hunt down and autonomy herself or one of her avatars at least  seems to be quiet cunning .

Then u have harmony , a greater shard who terrifies odium.

Then there are the 6 other unknown shards who might have gotten used to thier powers by now and have had ample time to study Rayse . might stand against , defeat or atleast offer a prolonged resistance to Rayse.

Many of them might have far better futuresight , a priceless advantage.

Then there's hoid , he by himself is a threat and he's trying to forge an anti- Rayse alliance as well. 

He also had to deal with new developments like technological progress on Scadrial , roshar and Sel and perhaps nalthis. Maybe even taldain. Silverlight shouldn't be underestimated either. So far they have remainder neutral observers but it could change.

These humans might in a few centuries be powerful enough to take on a bound shard. Especially If they have Shardic help. 

Then there's the problem of the Evil on Threnody , which might or might not be Ambition in vengeance mode. 

Even if it isn't, it's still a possible threat.

Then u have the sentiant landscapes on Sel  , an unforeseen effect of the Dor being converted into free investiture. 

I'm imagining they won't be too happy with Odium or odium too happy with them as he wants to kill the stormfather for being a big splinter of honour and sane principles might apply for the selish landscapes as well. 

Then there's Nightblood and hemalurgy. A shard using hemalurgy based overpowered puppets might easily defeat Odium's forces. They could even create new species like Koloss , kandra and Psalms werewolves to tackle his regular troops.

All in all , Odium is in a bad position. 

Maybe the other shards are waiting for odium to become weaker still by fighting honor and cultivation . And then they will spring upon him. 

Or maybe odium is doomed to be bound to the Rosharan system in any eventuality.

I'm sure odium has given all this and more , enough thought.

So he's bitter and he's thinking " Hell , I defeated u Adonalsium but now look at me now ,bound to this system and even if I win , it will still be really difficult to be free again and even if I am , i might still have my work cut out for me and I might get killed myself , maybe even by those puny humans.  U have ur revenge.   I thought by now I would be the only God and i would reign supreme.  U were  broken but maybe u foresaw all this , Maybe in a way u still reign ".

Moalach might have picked up on this thought and being mindless , didn't really think twice about revealing Odium's thoughts in a death rattle.

So yeah that's my theory . Even if my analysis of the death rattle is wrong. U can't deny how screwed odium is , can u ?

Edited by PrinceGenocide
A little polishing
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Autonomy is theorized to be allied to Odium though she probably has various contingencies 

I think 'The Broken One' refers to whatever happened to make him stuck on Braize

As for other Shards' response to Odium's actions: the Oathbringer letters speak volumes. The Shards are either ignorant of the danger or uncaring. Odium knew the original Vessels and has access to Fortune so it makes sense that he can maneuver himself to have some defenses in case of any accusations, that he was going after those who broke the non-interference pact (no idea about Uli Da, though Edgli at least, didn't seem to like her, possibly due to her being a Sho Del). Brandon has said that Odium is allied to one or more Cosmere power(s).

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7 hours ago, Honorless said:

Autonomy is theorized to be allied to Odium though she probably has various contingencies 

I think 'The Broken One' refers to whatever happened to make him stuck on Braize

As for other Shards' response to Odium's actions: the Oathbringer letters speak volumes. The Shards are either ignorant of the danger or uncaring. Odium knew the original Vessels and has access to Fortune so it makes sense that he can maneuver himself to have some defenses in case of any accusations, that he was going after those who broke the non-interference pact (no idea about Uli Da, though Edgli at least, didn't seem to like her, possibly due to her being a Sho Del). Brandon has said that Odium is allied to one or more Cosmere power(s).

 

Autonomy is said to be pursuing her own agenda which coincidentally might have helped Rayse. There's not much to suggest he has an alliance with her or any other shard. 

The WoB just states he had help. Whether it was intended or not , is upto speculation.

Even if there is an alliance ,Doesn't mean he can't betray his allies , if he has any 

Alliances are weak things indeed ,as szeth quite wittily said In WoK prologue.

 

I could argue that the other shards are uncaring cause they have had opportunity to study Rayse over the years .

Besides they might ( rightfully perhaps ) think that Rayse is doomed to be bound to Roshar. 

Either way odium is screwed and bitter about it .

Odium has access to fortune and the spiritual realm but other shards have far greater access.

Besides odium never saw Dalinar summoning a perpendicularaity not did he see jasnah sparing renarin.

Also it seems cultivation similar to preservation has a super long term plan to defeat Rayse. 

So in summary , I still believe the death rattle is about a bitter thought of odium and the broken one being referred to  is Adonalsium. 

Yes I understand this one doesn't really carry the plot. But still it's interesting to note 

Anyway Rayse is finding things are a lot harder than he foresaw and Likely to get harder still. 

 

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How do you rationalize this epigraph if Adonalsium is "the broken one"? 

Quote

“Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns.”

—Collected: Chachanan, 1173, 84 seconds pre-death. Subject: a cutpurse with the wasting sickness, of partial Iriali descent.

It seems to clearly point to Odium when paired with the use of "Odium reigns" said by the Stormfather.

The "three of sixteen" clearly places the subject of the epigraph after the Shattering, and unless it were reformed I'm not sure how Adonalsium is capable of ruling anything? 

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I think, in essence, I agree that odium is quite in a fix. He is definitely not going to fulfil his plan of being the only shard remaining, at this rate. He won the first few battles because he had the element of surprise at his side. I don’t think anyone thought that he would be able to take out both shards on Sel. Then he killed ambition and honor. But honor has very neatly trapped him on Roshar and Cultivation has already proven to be if not better at least his equal at this game they are playing. 
On top of that, we have odium that is already “the broken one” and we have wob that says since odium has settled on Roshar, this time he will find it difficult to leave, he might have to rip out himself off of Roshar and that might result in him loosing his investiture on Roshar. 
 

So, going forwards, he has to face whatever ascended version of honor Dalinar is and Cultivation. And even if he manages to get free, he would be loosing significant amounts of his investiture on Roshar. 
 

Also, I believe by now, other shards are better prepared for him. They have had a long long time to decide how to deal with odium if he ever showed up on their planet. Endowment’s “he will be dealt with” seems to imply as much. 
 

So, I agree with you @PrinceGenocide that Odium is screwed up.. 
Making everyone your enemy, basically not the best of the idea.

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1 hour ago, PrinceGenocide said:

 

Autonomy is said to be pursuing her own agenda which coincidentally might have helped Rayse. There's not much to suggest he has an alliance with her or any other shard. 

The WoB just states he had help. Whether it was intended or not , is upto speculation.

Even if there is an alliance ,Doesn't mean he can't betray his allies , if he has any 

Alliances are weak things indeed ,as szeth quite wittily said In WoK prologue.

I could argue that the other shards are uncaring cause they have had opportunity to study Rayse over the years .

Besides they might ( rightfully perhaps ) think that Rayse is doomed to be bound to Roshar. 

Either way odium is screwed and bitter about it .

Odium has access to fortune and the spiritual realm but other shards have far greater access.

Besides odium never saw Dalinar summoning a perpendicularaity not did he see jasnah sparing renarin.

Also it seems cultivation similar to preservation has a super long term plan to defeat Rayse. 

So in summary , I still believe the death rattle is about a bitter thought of odium and the broken one being referred to  is Adonalsium. 

Yes I understand this one doesn't really carry the plot. But still it's interesting to note 

Anyway Rayse is finding things are a lot harder than he foresaw and Likely to get harder still. 

 

The reason why the theory exists and why someone asked that to Brandon is because multiple things lined up: both Autonomy and Odium meddle in other worlds, both Bavadin and Rayse are disliked by Hoid, Dominion and Devotion sound like the opposites of Autonomy and Odium, that Odium probably had help fighting against two Shards rather than soloing them, the Mistborn era 2 newspaper clipping "vote for passion, vote for freedom" etc. Just check out the discussion threads

Yes, any alliance with Odium would be tenuous where both parties would be checking their backs and rightfully so but again, Rayse personally knew the other Vessels, an alliance doesn't need to be help, just expressed support or defense, politicking basically. We do see that with Endowment and Patji, who supported Odium's killings and applauded his initiative

Odium can see enough to paint the broad strokes at least, after all till he encountered Honor and Cultivation on Roshar, he had successfully Splintered three Shards, one of whom is Ambition who sounds like she'd have had a much better futuresight than him

It is a death rattle, fuelled by Moelach, who is noted to provide futuresight and is probably the reason why Rosharans, the Vorin in particular, have so many cultural hang-ups regarding making predictions. To note, Adonalsium's Shattering is a past event, not a future event. I don't see how or why Moelach's influence would result in a death rattle about the Shattering. We haven't seen any examples of retrocognition in the Cosmere yet either.

I think narratively, the Broken One referring to Odium just sounds stronger.

But yes, the thoughts regarding Odium's various troubles is definitely something I agree with.

Edited by Honorless
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3 minutes ago, Honorless said:

To note, Adonalsium's Shattering is a past event, not a future event. I don't see how or why Moelach's influence would result in a death rattle about the Shattering. We haven't seen any examples of retrocognition in the Cosmere yet either.

I don’t think that death rattle is referring to adonalsium’s Shattering at all but I still think that it is possible that some of the death rattles show past events.. like the one about “our homes become their homes” and “Why have you forsaken us almighty” there are few more. 
I think since these visions are fueled from spiritual realm where all time is one, retrocognition via death rattles should be possible. 
As to incidence of retro cognitive experiences, shallan has a few visions in words of radiance that might fit. For example the one about Shalash destroying her statue and the one about survivors from a ship wreck landing safely on shore.

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9 minutes ago, The traveller said:

I don’t think that death rattle is referring to adonalsium’s Shattering at all but I still think that it is possible that some of the death rattles show past events.. like the one about “our homes become their homes” and “Why have you forsaken us almighty” there are few more. 
I think since these visions are fueled from spiritual realm where all time is one, retrocognition via death rattles should be possible. 
As to incidence of retro cognitive experiences, shallan has a few visions in words of radiance that might fit. For example the one about Shalash destroying her statue and the one about survivors from a ship wreck landing safely on shore.

I don't know... those might be present events, clairvoyance and heightened awareness

The "our homes become their homes" could also refer to the events taking place now, in reverse

But agreed, I too think that retrocognition is definitely possible within the Cosmere

Edited by Honorless
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36 minutes ago, Honorless said:

don't know... those might be present events, clairvoyance and heightened awareness

Yup I do think the one with the ship wreck might be from the present, Was their a highstorm when she had these visions..? It did not happen again in OB so I don’t know what’s up with those visions.. they are weird.. They seemed to be more of a truthwatcher type of thing to me so why is shallan seeing them!!

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2 hours ago, Calderis said:

How do you rationalize this epigraph if Adonalsium is "the broken one"? 

It seems to clearly point to Odium when paired with the use of "Odium reigns" said by the Stormfather.

The "three of sixteen" clearly places the subject of the epigraph after the Shattering, and unless it were reformed I'm not sure how Adonalsium is capable of ruling anything? 

Well It says " three of sixteen ruled , now the broken one reigns ".

It doesn't say " three of sixteen ruled , now only one of them reigns ".

So that's how I'm rationalizing it.

Now, we must remember that Roshar was constructed and greatly shaped by adonalsium. It might be the thing that created the unique ecology and the Highstorms.

Indeed , the planet's low gravity imply that it's core is soft and incapable of supporting a strong magnetic field .

It seems the Highstorms serve that purpose.

So we can say that pre-shattering , adonalsium had greater symbolic Dominion on roshar , ie, adonalsium reigned.

Then he got shattered and his sculpted world was the battlefield for 3 shards.

Honor is dead , cultivation hides and odium was dormant.

For millennia , the Highstorms were the greatest magical phenomenon on roshar and yes, it was imbued with a splinter of  Honor but the Highstorms and perhaps the stormfather himself were created by adonalsium.

So it was Adonalsium's creation reigning over roshar.

So in a symbolic manner , adonalsium rules again. It's a fragile rule which ended as soon as Odium returned

Hence , the broken one refers to adonalsium in a highly symbolic manner.

 

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2 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Yup I do think the one with the ship wreck might be from the present, Was their a highstorm when she had these visions..? It did not happen again in OB so I don’t know what’s up with those visions.. they are weird.. They seemed to be more of a truthwatcher type of thing to me so why is shallan seeing them!!

Well she does share illumination with them

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Just now, PrinceGenocide said:

Well she does share illumination with them

Yea and it irks me that she is the one who is getting to do the watching on-page instead of Renarin....

And it might also imply that Renarin has indeed one normal surge- progression and one corrupted surge- illumination, a theory that many here support and one that I, personally, do not like! :mellow:

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2 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Yup I do think the one with the ship wreck might be from the present, Was their a highstorm when she had these visions..? It did not happen again in OB so I don’t know what’s up with those visions.. they are weird.. They seemed to be more of a truthwatcher type of thing to me so why is shallan seeing them!!

Because she shares a surge with Truthwatchers, so is probably perfectly capable of doing what they do, just as they could make illusions. 

I think both are aspects of Illumination and typically each order is just better at different aspects.

@PrinceGenocide considering the Unmade seem to have still been active, and everything has been on a general slide towards war and animosity for seemingly centuries, I'll agree to disagree. Odium has "reigned" for far longer than his actual presence. 

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3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Because she shares a surge with Truthwatchers, so is probably perfectly capable of doing what they do, just as they could make illusions. 

I think both are aspects of Illumination and typically each order is just better at different aspects.

Yes I know.. I just wanted to see Renarin do it first.. the normal truthwatcher thing and not just the future visions thing..

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I should also clarify my comment about retrocognition, specifically in relation to gold Allomancy. My quibble here is the same as my quibble with the term 'teleportation', that gold Allomancy isn't exactly showing the past. It seems more connected to Identity, showing an alternate version of oneself, if they had taken a different path.

It took me a while to sort out Brandon's comment about time and space being one in the Spiritual. I was immediately thinking wait what? It took me a while to connect it to time-space continuum

 

As for the Broken One referring to Adonalsium, what do you make of the full phrase though, "Three of the Sixteen ruled, now the Broken One reigns"?

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1 minute ago, Honorless said:

I should also clarify my comment about retrocognition, specifically in relation to gold Allomancy. My quibble here is the same as my quibble with the term 'teleportation', that gold Allomancy isn't exactly showing the past. It seems more connected to Identity, showing an alternate version of oneself, if they had taken a different path

Agreed, and why I don't believe that the collapse of probability actually removes those paths of potential information from the Spiritual Realm. 

Gold shows that the alternate paths still exist, they just aren't normally accessible as "dead branches" of probability. 

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7 minutes ago, Honorless said:

My quibble here is the same as my quibble with the term 'teleportation', that gold Allomancy isn't exactly showing the past.

In a similar way, none of the death rattles or Renarin’s visions are exactly showing the future either. They are also only showing the possibilities which is exactly what gold shows but for the past. In the same manner, death rattles showing past events may be showing true past events or dead branches of paths never taken..

Edited by The traveller
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1 hour ago, Honorless said:

 

It is a death rattle, fuelled by Moelach, who is noted to provide futuresight and is probably the reason why Rosharans, the Vorin in particular, have so many cultural hang-ups regarding making predictions. To note, Adonalsium's Shattering is a past event, not a future event. I don't see how or why Moelach's influence would result in a death rattle about the Shattering. We haven't seen any examples of retrocognition in the Cosmere yet either..

I never said it refers to the Shattering. 

I merely said it symbolically referred to adonalsium in his current divided dead form as the broken one.

20 minutes ago, Calderis said:

 

@PrinceGenocide considering the Unmade seem to have still been active, and everything has been on a general slide towards war and animosity for seemingly centuries, I'll agree to disagree. Odium has "reigned" for far longer than his actual presence. 

But they have been subtle , invisible and less dramatic with the one exception maybe , being the scouring of Aimia Maybe .

Compare that with the Highstorms and thier tremendous effect on culture, geography , architecture and biology of Roshar 

Also the origins of the Unmade is unclear as well.

They might originally have been great Spren created by adonalsium which were later corrupted by odium , same as how stormfather was hijacked by honor.

So again adonalsium symbolically reign.

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Hmm, I still think it makes more sense for the Broken One to refer to Odium, though I have no idea how he is broken.

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16 minutes ago, Honorless said:

 

 

As for the Broken One referring to Adonalsium, what do you make of the full phrase though, "Three of the Sixteen ruled, now the Broken One reigns"?

The answer is 

32 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Well It says " three of sixteen ruled , now the broken one reigns ".

It doesn't say " three of sixteen ruled , now only one of them reigns ".

So that's how I'm rationalizing it..

 

 

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But Adonalsium reigning on Roshar....? Nope, still don't agree with that interpretation

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10 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Hmm, I still think it makes more sense for the Broken One to refer to Odium, though I have no idea how he is broken.

Maybe, it's probably odium. But idk seems too on the nose. 

I think my theory might make sense too.

Of course by my proofs , it could refer to Honor too , via the stormfather yet again.

:V

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By that interpretation, Adonalsium is still reigning on all the non-shard worlds too.. 

I really think "the broken one" is referring to Odium

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@The traveller But I don't think all the non shard worlds or even the shard worlds were created by adonalsium. 

The only two worlds we know were sculpted by it are Roshar and maybe Taldain ( if is However possible that it was Autonomy who tidally locked the planet in it's eccentric orbit ).

I'm pretty sure most of the other stars , planets , etc developed alongside adonalsium. 

Matter coalased into all the celestial bodies.

Investiture coalesced into Adonalsium.

Adonalsium only created or modified a few of them. 

So it makes sense that adonalsium reigns on roshar again if roshar was one of the few or the only world sculpted by adonalsium

 

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29 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

But I don't think all the non shard worlds or even the shard worlds were created by adonalsium. 

Yes i agree..

but Adonalsium's Investiture permeated all the worlds in the cosmere. On his shattering, each such investiture automatically got connected to one or the other shards based on closeness to intent may be...

Quote
Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017)
#11 Share  Copy
 

Chaos

So, at the Forbidden Planet signing you said that when Adonalsium was Shattered, all Investiture in the cosmere was associated to one of the Shards... So, what happened with Adonalsium's spren on Roshar? Were those associated to Honor and Cultivation? What happened with them?

Brandon Sanderson

So they were very-- They were already associated to certain parts of Adonalsium and they went with those associations. There's a lot of Cultivation in all of the spren, particularly the natural spren.

 

Later, Shards settled on planets based on pure choice or based on these associations. However, if what you are saying is correct:

2 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Now, we must remember that Roshar was constructed and greatly shaped by adonalsium. It might be the thing that created the unique ecology and the Highstorms.

Indeed , the planet's low gravity imply that it's core is soft and incapable of supporting a strong magnetic field .

It seems the Highstorms serve that purpose.

So we can say that pre-shattering , adonalsium had greater symbolic Dominion on roshar , ie, adonalsium reigned.

Then he got shattered and his sculpted world was the battlefield for 3 shards.

Honor is dead , cultivation hides and odium was dormant.

For millennia , the Highstorms were the greatest magical phenomenon on roshar and yes, it was imbued with a splinter of  Honor but the Highstorms and perhaps the stormfather himself were created by adonalsium.

So it was Adonalsium's creation reigning over roshar.

So in a symbolic manner , adonalsium rules again. It's a fragile rule which ended as soon as Odium returned

Hence , the broken one refers to adonalsium in a highly symbolic manner.

So, by this reasoning, we can also reason that all the non-shard worlds have residue investiture that earlier belonged to Adonalsium, which has not been actively taken over by some shard. So, in that way, symbolically speaking, Adonalsium still reigns on all the non-shard worlds too. 

I actually do not mind this idea.. It sort of proves that if Adonalsium were a true God then he could not be killed, so, in a way, may be, Adonalsium the power was not really killed, it is pure energy and energy can only change forms but can not be destroyed.. 

So, the original 16 shards may not have been as successful as think they are..

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