The Traveller

Odium, Svarkiss, Shades of threnody and Fused

32 posts in this topic

Ok guys.. I have an out-there idea that I think Odium has been investing on all Planets that he goes to kill shards and he creates Cognitive Shadows by investing in them, imbibing them with hatred and uses them as his minions to help him in his fight against other shards..

So far, we know that Odium has visited Sel(where he killed Aona and Skai), Threnody system(which is the site of shardic altercation between odium and ambition) and right now, he is trapped on Roshar where he has already killed Tanavast and his shard has been shattered.

On Roshar, Odium has created Fused that are cognitive shadows that do not pass on to the beyond when they die, instead they return and take up a new body and on and on it goes.. Some of these fused have lost their minds and most of them are so invested with Odium’s intent that they understand nothing but hatred towards human. Fused only wish to win this war and finally, be able to rest by passing onto beyond.

Given that there are wobs that say that Odium has invested on all the planets he visited briefly to kill these shards like he has on the Rosharan System:

Quote

Kogiopsis (paraphrased)

Given that we now know that Odium can 'make it possible' for people to use magic that draws on him on other planets, has he done this anywhere besides Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Odium has been active on all other planets, including several we haven't seen yet.

 

 

Questioner

Is there any reason why Odium's known as the Broken One? Has he got some part of him ripped off? ...Has he had any Investiture ripped off of him?

Brandon Sanderson

Has he had Investiture ripped off of him? Yes, asterisk.

 

 

Questioner

When one of the shards, like Odium, move from world to world in the cosmere, does their presence, like the metals they leave behind and their magic, leave with them?

Brandon Sanderson

Odium never really settled on a planet.  He is now settled on Roshar and his magic has permeated things.  Leaving would be very difficult for him. It would either involve leaving behind some of his power or ripping that out, which would be a difficult process.  So yes it is very tough to leave.

 

 

I find it a great coincidence that Odium visited Threnody system and fought with Ambition here and we have Shades on Threnody which are actually people who die and can not pass onto the beyond. Their actions are also very odium-y. So, I think that it is a possibility that these shades are actually a result of an earlier version of the experiment that Odium did on Threnody which was later was greatly improved upon in Roshar.

Further, on Sel also we have legends of Svarkiss which says that these are half ghost and half demons. Shu-dereth faith says that these are souls of men barred from entrance into heaven and are condemned to wander Sel, bitterly cursing their fate(very odium-y) and prey on humans. It is also believed that they have the ability to take over the body of living and control their actions, again very similar to how Fused work on Roshar. Although, I think that Odium withdrew his investiture from these Svarkiss and they no longer exist and are mere myth today in the Jaddeth Empire.. Just as he has promised The Fused that they will be allowed to pass on once they win. Millennia later, on Roshar, Fused also would be nothing more than such a myth.  

Edited by The traveller
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I think that Odium is playing the infection version of Shardic tag

 

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We can infer that Odium has had magic associated with him on other Shardworlds from this WoB

Quote

Kogiopsis (paraphrased)

Given that we now know that Odium can 'make it possible' for people to use magic that draws on him on other planets, has he done this anywhere besides Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Odium has been active on all other planets, including several we haven't seen yet.

As well as the fact that Brandon always talks about him as not leaving behind any of his Investiture. A Shard's presence does naturally result in a way to access their Investiture by the inhabitants of their Shardworld.

We have a confirmation that he didn't leave any of his Investiture on Sel

Quote

Questioner

Saying that, "Odium did not leave his power behind on Sel. He left several other powers which are now, to a large extent, mindless." So, is another power- did he have some kind of *inaudible* under control or--

Brandon Sanderson

So I dodged that one very easily. I was talking about Dominion and Devotion, which he could have taken up and left behind. It technically answered the question. That was the answer. I even said on a tape later on "I wiggled out of that one real well," but they didn't know how I wiggled out of it. When they said "Did he leave behind any powers?" Those are the powers he left behind.

Questioner

But they weren't his powers?

Brandon Sanderson

No, but they were-- As soon as he killed them, he could have had them, right? So it definitely gave me wiggle room.

Footnote: The initial quote is referencing this WoB
Skyward Denver signing (Nov. 15, 2018)

So yeah, Svrakiss could have been something like the Fused on Roshar, that were fuelled by him and are now only myths since he left.

As for the situation on Threnody, the Shades do seem to discourage Ambition: moving fast, starting a fire or drawing blood, making their actions seem contrary to the Intent of the Shard whose Investiture permeates them.

I can definitely see links between the three.

Edited by Honorless
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36 minutes ago, Honorless said:

As well as the fact that Brandon always talks about him as not leaving behind any of his Investiture.

We have a confirmation that he didn't leave any of his Investiture on Sel

Hmm.. Yes that is why I think that the svrakiss are just myths in today’s Jaddeth empire but they used to exist millennia ago when odium had invested. Only their stories are left today. 
 

 

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I definitely agree that Threnody Shades seem to be the effect of Odium Investiture. The enforce Simple Rules (based on Jewish Sabbath rules) and live in the same place as the Deepest Ones (probably a Lovecraft reference) which fits nicely with the Caananite/Lovecraftian names of the Unmade. The Evil might be some Ambition splinter or Odium Investiture that gained consciousness with time

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Ok , so ambition was odiums first kill right. It was unplanned. He stumbled upon her whilst on the way to Sel ( We don't exactly how much after the Shattering this happened. It could have occured within a few days or years or decades ).

We do know it was in the wake of the Shattering , so I guess at most it could be about a century or so after the Shattering. 

So Odium was still unused to the Shard's power and parts of him got ripped off along with ambitions and he saw thier effect on Threnody . Times moves differently for shards right , so he could have been in conflict with Uli Da for centuries . Enough time to see the effects of his investiture there.

Then when he went to Sel. He used this new knowledge to create vicious shades , who helped him defeat DnD. Then he left the system and withdrew his investiture , leaving the shades to be pulled away into the Beyond. 

Later the humans who survived the desolation mythified odium as the great Other and the shades as his minions .

Later on , these elements, including odium himself were forgotten in most regions but  the shades were integrated into shu -dereth in the local parlance as the Svarkiss.

Then he left for roshar and used a similar strategy for the Parshendi and is still using it. 

I'm interested in why there are still shades active on Threnody . Did a large part of him got ripped there ?

Or did he manage to reclaim the parts leave behind only a miniscule amount which acts  more of a trigger. Like maybe it's small pieces of odiums investiture that lead to the transition into a cognitive shadows but then it's Ambitions investiture that sustains it.

This would be somewhat similar to what happened with kelsier. If it weren't for leras unwittingly giving away the location of his shardpool and he saturating himself with investiture by bathing in it for a year , he would never have become a CS. 

On Threnody , since the shard is dead and I believe the entire continent of Hell is saturated with Ambition's investiture , maybe souls can get lucky often and hit upon Odium investiture sparking then into becoming shades and then they can use Ambition's investiture to sustain themselves.

An alternate explaination would be that odium and Ambition's investiture got fused together and the chunk infused the continent. Odium was unable to reclaim his investiture as it got melded.  The intents melded together to have vengeance ( one interpretation of Ambition ) and blind hatred ( one interpretation of Odium ) as the goal of the CSs created from them.

As for the Evil , I hold to my theory that it is the Shardic equivalent of a zombie or Onryō (怨霊 onryō, literally "vengeful spirit", sometimes rendered "wrathful spirit") . That it is Ambition ,nearly splintered and nearly mindless but still alive to an extent, bent on vengeance against Odium. 

Maybe vengeance is one interpretation of Ambition or maybe it's due to Odium's investiture melding to a larger extent with her.

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1 hour ago, The traveller said:

Hmm.. Yes that is why I think that the svrakiss are just myths in today’s Jaddeth empire but they used to exist millennia ago when odium had invested. Only their stories are left today. 

He never Invested in Sel though, since he avoided that until Cultivation and Honor forced him to. Not saying it's unlikely that they were servants Odium brought along as he attacked.

14 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Ok , so ambition was odiums first kill right. It was unplanned. He stumbled upon her whilst on the way to Sel ( We don't exactly how much after the Shattering this happened. It could have occured within a few days or years or decades ).

It was actually the other way around:

Quote

Argent

Some of the few Shards Rayse Splintered included Ambition, I believe, Dominion, and Devotion.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Argent

And those were all way back, in the history. So, we know that the Shards' personalities overrides the Vessel's personality over time?

Brandon Sanderson

Strongly influence, and depending on the individual, override.

Argent

Okay. So did Rayse choose those Shards because--

Brandon Sanderson

He went after Ambition first, but didn't find Ambition until after going after Devotion and Dominion. But Ambition was number one on his hit list.

Argent

Was it because of the Shard or because of the Vessel? Like did he hate the person?

Brandon Sanderson

In this case it was the Shard, primarily, that drove him--

Argent

Oh, he was maybe afraid the Shard would grow too powerful and take over--

Brandon Sanderson

He was afraid that this Shard that would rival him. And so he's like "This one is number one on the hit list. We're taking down Ambition." But then he got trapped in the Rosharan system.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

 

Edited by Elegy
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21 minutes ago, Elegy said:

He never Invested in Sel though, since he avoided that until Cultivation and Honor forced him to. Not saying it's unlikely that they were servants Odium brought along as he attacked.

We have wob that points out that he invested on all the planets that he went killing shards but he did not leave any investiture behind on Sel..

@PrinceGenocide it was actually other way around. He went looking for ambition, could not find her and then went to Sel killed DnD first then went to threnody system where they had a fight somewhere in the system in between the planets. But I do agree with you in that I think he is called the broken one. I think he was wounded a little and a few splinters fell of and waves of his and ambitions investiture has infected that whole system. 
the third wob I mentioned in the original post makes me think that may be on threnody, he invested, formed shades but it took him longer than he anticipated in defeating ambition and by the time he left, he had to rip himself off of threnody, as a result shades and the investiture that caused new shades to be created got left behind..

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51 minutes ago, Elegy said:

 

It was actually the other way around:

 

Okkk. Sorry , I got my post Shattering history mixed up 

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21 minutes ago, The traveller said:

We have wob that points out that he invested on all the planets that he went killing shards but he did not leave any investiture behind on Sel..

Can I see these WoBs? The last ones that I read say that Odium avoids Investing in planets, because he doesn't want to get stuck on them, or lessen the available power that he has.

Quote

Questioner

Did Odium originally have a planet he was Invested in?

Brandon Sanderson

Odium's plan always involved not getting stuck on one

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)
Quote

Questioner

When one of the shards, like Odium, move from world to world in the cosmere, does their presence, like the metals they leave behind and their magic, leave with them?

Brandon Sanderson

Odium never really settled on a planet.  He is now settled on Roshar and his magic has permeated things.  Leaving would be very difficult for him. It would either involve leaving behind some of his power or ripping that out, which would be a difficult process.  So yes it is very tough to leave.

Phoenix Comicon 2013 (May 24, 2013)

 

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I have already posted the wobs.. please go through them.. 

I have also posted the wob regarding settling already. Settling Long term as he has on Roshar is very different from temporarily investing On Sel and threnody and then withdrawing while leaving. He never let himself permeate the entire system before as he has on Roshar. 
 

Edited by The traveller
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3 minutes ago, The traveller said:

I have already posted the wobs.. please go through them.. 

The closest one is the second, that says he's had investiture ripped off of him. None of them say that he invested in planets in the past. Which is why I'm asking. Being active on a planet doesn't necessarily mean investing in it.

Edited by RShara
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1 hour ago, Elegy said:

He never Invested in Sel though, since he avoided that until Cultivation and Honor forced him to. Not saying it's unlikely that they were servants Odium brought along as he attacked.

 

 

I don't know if supplying energy to keep a CS going is equal to investment. @RShara

Like isn't it supposed to be hard or near impossible to reclaim invested investiture. In contrast , L odium  threatens the Parshendi that he can simply reclaim the investiture sustaining Them. 

Maybe Investment is doing stuff like creating Spren , splintering urself to form unmade or stormfather/ Nightwatcher  like entities , creating an entire planet from scratch , letting small pieces of u go feral on Threnody, etc.

Since he can reclaim the investiture sustaining the Parshendi much like how ruin could have reclaimed the atium. I'm guessing infusing CS doesn't count as investment. Once the jobs done he can simply pull back and the Parshendi ghosts will fade into the Beyond. Maybe he used the same technique before on Sel.

 

Or maybe he is investing in whichever planets he decides to fight on but he's always careful to reclaim the investiture once the battle is done 

 

Edited by PrinceGenocide
A little polishing
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2 minutes ago, RShara said:

The closest one is the second, that says he's had investiture ripped off of him. None of them say that he invested in planets in the past. Which is why I'm asking. Being active on a planet doesn't necessarily mean investing in it.

First one Rshara.. I and others interpret it as odium has invested on all planets he has visited but never left any investiture behind.. threnody I think shades still exist because odium has a fight and some pieces were ripped away causing him to withdraw quickly.. leaving shades behind..

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Just now, The traveller said:

First one Rshara.. I and others interpret it as odium has invested on all planets he has visited but never left any investiture behind.. threnody I think shades still exist because odium has a fight and some pieces were ripped away causing him to withdraw quickly.. leaving shades behind..

Ah, I see. I didn't really read it that way, myself. It reads to me more like he influenced some people, maybe used a little investiture on them, but not fully investing in any place.

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21 minutes ago, RShara said:

It reads to me more like he influenced some people, maybe used a little investiture on them, but not fully investing in any place.

It is not so different as I see it. I think he invested a little on Sel and threnody as well. But how little? 
He can create svrakiss on Sel by merely investing in some people and he need not be investing on the planet at all.. 

on threnody, it works in a similar way. But I think something more happened there. I believe the fight between the two caused small pieces from the shards to rip away from them and fall into the system infusing threnody with their investiture. Which is causing more and more shades in getting formed even today.. 

Edited by The traveller
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3 hours ago, The traveller said:

on threnody, it works in a similar way. But I think something more happened there. I believe the fight between the two caused small pieces from the shards to rip away from them and fall into the system infusing threnody with their investiture. Which is causing more and more shades in getting formed even today.. 

Weve been directly told that that is true of Ambition's power washing over Threnody. There's been nothing that's said Odium’s power did, or that he was in any way present on the world itself at all.

If we have the information on Ambitions wounds causing power to reach Threnody, why nothing for Odium? 

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52 minutes ago, Calderis said:

If we have the information on Ambitions wounds causing power to reach Threnody, why nothing for Odium? 

There is only one RAFO on similarity between Shades and the Fused (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11288) but per this WoB I suppose we can assume there is another Shard's investiture being in play on Threnody

Quote

Steeldancer

On Threnody, the Shades, their eyes turn red when they get really mad. Is that the same thing as with the Voidbringers and all the other ones?

Brandon Sanderson

I have a subtheme in the Cosmere of the redness and it's supposed to be intentional.

Steeldancer

So it is the same thing?

Brandon Sanderson

It's the same theme. But I do not mean to imply that it's the same Shard.

Steeldancer

But it's the same effect?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. I'm doing it intentionally. Red eyes specifically are meant to mean something but I use it a few other ways [the same way?].

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

But I find it really unlikely there would be a third Shard on Threnody at some point. So I guess this time red means Odium again. 

Actually, somebody may once ask Brandon if Svrakiss have red eyes. Although it's probably a RAFO as all about them. 

Edited by Nnatel
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1 hour ago, Nnatel said:

But I find it really unlikely there would be a third Shard on Threnody at some point. So I guess this time red means Odium again

That wouldn't be a requirement at all. Anymore than Roshar, which has only ever had three shards there, is technically invested by all of them. 

Much of what is present on Threnody, as a world that's never had a Shard in residence, could have developed all on its own, and the red could be a property that's solely from parts of Ambition hijacking what's naturally developed. 

My reasoning in my previous post is more based off of the Threnodite essay than WoBs. 

Quote

Fortunately I have personal access to someone from Threnody, the third planet in the system. Judging by the records that Nazh has provided, I have concluded that some measure of Investiture must have existed on this planet before the battle between Shards. However, the waves of destruction—carrying ripped-off chunks of Ambition’s power—twisted both the people and the planet of Threnody.

If both were wounded enough to wash the planet in their power, this seems like a glaring oversite on Khriss' part. 

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16 minutes ago, Calderis said:

 

Much of what is present on Threnody, as a world that's never had a Shard in residence, could have developed all on its own, and the red could be a property that's solely from parts of Ambition hijacking what's naturally developed. My reasoning in my previous post is more based off of the Threnodite essay than WoBs. 

@Nnatel what if there was a third shard ?

Suppose a shard wanted to grow stronger and decided to consume dead shards . It would be unsuccessful on Sel cause odium did a good job sequestering the dor.

But on Threnody and perhaps on other systems u have large chunks of Ambition's investiture strewn about. 

I don't know if odium took the proper precautions there. 

So it's possible a shard tried to hijack the investiture , with what degree of success I can't say. But that's why the shades have red eyes.

A Possible candidate are Autonomy.

The resulting aberrations in intent could be easily nullified by her multiple personality disorder.

This excess investiture might be the partial answer to how she's creating her avatars 

Another candidate is the survival shard. Maybe it thinks having more investiture will give it an edge.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Calderis said:

If both were wounded enough to wash the planet in their power, this seems like a glaring oversite on Khriss' part. 

first of all that is not the entire quote. Let me quote it here: 
 

Quote

The direct clash between two shards of Adonalsium had profound impact on the planets of this system. Though the true contest happened far away from the planets- ripples of destruction and change washed through the system. Investigations into how it has changed the planets is largely fruitless because none of them have perpendicularity. 
Fortunately I have personal access to someone from Threnody. Judging by the records he has provided, I have concluded that .... 

.... waves of destruction- carrying ambitions power- twisted both the planet and it’s people...

So please note that

-Khriss mentions that two shards and their conflict had profound impact on threnody system. She is including Odium. 

- we have confirmation that ambition went out swinging

- odium is called broken one which implies that he lost chunks of himself too. 

- Khriss has put a caveat here, this judgement is not based on her own observations but the records provided by Nazh. Why Brandon put this caveat here, if it is the final answer?

- and I think this observation is for the Evil and not the shades. Because she immediately talks about Evil after this observation. 
 

She, in fact, has visited the smaller continent once, and says this about shades this: 

Quote

A spirit infused with extra investiture will often imprint upon that power. They are instantations of self aware(barely self aware) investiture. This is an area deserving of more research. 

So, again regarding the shades specifically, words only “extra investiture” is mentioned and not ambitions investiture. 
and again Khriss has said this deserves more research.

So, nothing is as final and confirmed about the shades in the essay as you seem to suggest @Calderis
 

And I again stress that it is too big a coincidence that wherever odium goes, we have people who did not pass onto the beyond, became CS and troubled the living..
 

Edited by The traveller
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3 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Khriss mentions that two shards and their conflict had profound impact on threnody system. She is including Odium. 

She does, and I don't think that requires any Investiture from the Shards at all. A shardic battle should have impacts across the realms, regardless of that. 

4 minutes ago, The traveller said:

we have confirmation that ambition went out swinging

Doesn't change my point

5 minutes ago, The traveller said:

odium is called broken one which implies that he lost chunks of himself too

It implies he was injured. Nit necessarily that he lost anything, or that it happened here. He's been fighting in multiple places for a very long time. 

6 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Khriss has put a caveat here, this judgement is not based on her own observations but the records provided by Nazh. Why Brandon put this caveat here, if it is the final answer?

And I'm not saying you're wrong, or that in right. Just the evidence that we have. That caveat is Khriss being a scientist and qualifying her statement. It need not be false. More on that to follow. 

8 minutes ago, The traveller said:

and I think this observation is also applicable for the Evil and not the shades. Because she immediately talks about Evil after this observation

I think it's applicable to all of it. I think that the shades are a phenomenon that would have happened regardless of whether or not the Shards had fought or ever been there. 

Quote

Rhandric

How many magic systems are there on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on your definition. Is Windrunning its own magic system, or is it a division of a larger magic system? Are the ten different Surges each their own magic system, or...it's really how...

Rhandric

If you assume the surges are considered one.

Brandon Sanderson

Well then you would have Surgebinding, and the Old Magic, those are two at least, and there are things that are not explained in those at all, and how do you count creating fabrials? Is that a science and not a magic? Is that its own magic system?

Questioner 2

It's a science, because anyone can do it.

Brandon Sanderson

So Awakening is not a magic, then? Awakening's a science? Because anyone can Awaken if they just get the breath.

Rhandric

That's one thing that stood out to me in your magic systems, because in all your other magic systems that we've seen so far there has to be some form of snapping to occur, and that's unique...

Brandon Sanderson

Not all of them because, um, let's see...

Questioner 3

BioChroma doesn't.

Brandon Sanderson

BioChroma does not requires snapping.

Rhandric

Actually wait, is there an active magic system on Threnody?

Brandon Sanderson

 

Threnody has a non Shard-based...it depends on what you call magic. Do spirits coming back to life count as magic? It's science to them, but it's goofy science.

 

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

I definitely think that with the red eyes, something has changed their behavior, but I ascribe that to the power that washed over the planet from Ambition. I don't think think anything about Threnody was intentional. 

38 minutes ago, The traveller said:

So, again regarding the shades specifically, words only “extra investiture” is mentioned and not ambitions investiture. 
and again Khriss has said this deserves more research.

And I agree that "extra Investiture" line is not specific to Ambition because I don't believe it's specific to the shades. She's describing the requirements for making a CS in general. 

40 minutes ago, The traveller said:

So, nothing is as final and confirmed about the shades in the essay as you seem to suggest @Calderis

I did not say anything was, or wish to misrepresent anything. I'm just presenting my reasoning. 

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@Calderis 

Again please note that it is just a theory that I have and based on my reasoning I think it is very plausible. You may disagree. But I will put forth reasons for your arguments and how think they do not apply.
 

18 minutes ago, Calderis said:

It implies he was injured. Nit necessarily that he lost anything, or that it happened here

And I think that if odium got injured, it has to do with his shard getting chipped off. What else can it be? Probably a few other things but Having his chips ripped off or having some of his investiture running loose, seems most likely to me.  It is possible that the wound happened with dominion but it is equally possible that it was ambition. And we have Brandon saying that ambition went out swinging. Which makes me think it was ambition. Especially since immediately afterwards, on Roshar, we see, that odium drastically changed tactics. He decided to invest there, settle down even and he decided to take his time. Why? I think because with ambition he got really wounded, he is broken.

With regard to your point on the impact does not require investiture: When we have two shards fighting and their conflict has impacted the system- I can only think of ripples of both their investiture having some effect on the system.. That is the way they have any impact via their investiture. 

As to the existence of shades, I do not think they would have existed even if there was no fight between the two shards. We have no evidence to suggest that. The whole essay itself implies that everything that is happening there is due to the fact that it is a site of ancient shardic battle. 
 

 Brandon is not at all saying in that wob that shades are a result of magic system, nor has he said that it is ambitions magic.
 

I am saying it seems to be odiums magic. 


Regarding the extra investiture, Khriss very specifically talking about shades there. She begins the para with “let me tell you what is magically happening with shades on threnody”. 

Edited by The traveller
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1 minute ago, The traveller said:

Again please note that it is just a theory that I have and based on my reasoning I think it is very plausible. You may disagree. 

What makes you think that I'm not treating it as such, or that I expect you to drop this just because I disagree? 

This is what theory craft is about. People try to poke holes. You address them and adapt the theory. You disagree with the  reasoning of the argument and disregard it. Or you agree with the argument and the theory breaks. 

For me, that's what makes posting a theory fun in the first place. Arguing these things is how I formed my ideas in the first place, and when something breaks my model I have to change it, whether that is new Canon, or someone's reasoning that I find convincing. 

7 minutes ago, The traveller said:

And I think that if odium got injured, it has to do with his shard getting chipped off. What else can it be? Probably a few other things but Having his chips ripped off or having some of his investiture running loose, seems most likely to me.  It is possible that the wound happened with dominion but it is equally possible that it was ambition. And we have Brandon saying that ambition went out swinging. Which makes me think it was ambition. Especially since immediately afterwards, on Roshar, we see, that odium drastically changed tactics. He decided to invest there, settle down even and he decided to take his time. Why? I think because with ambition he got really wounded, he is broken.

I'm not sure what an injury to a shard would involve, but I thi k pieces being ripped off and separated is more a symptom of the "mortal" nature of Ambition’s wounding 

I don't think that Odium’s tactics changed at all. I think he was attempting business as usual right up until Honor and Cultivation trapped him. Which is also why I find his repeated loses as a far more likely source than either of the previous fights for him being called the Broken One. Honor went down swinging as well. 

13 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Brandon is not at all saying in that wob that shades are a result of magic system, nor has he said that it is ambitions magic.
 

I am saying it seems to be odiums magic. 

He specifically says that Threnody has a "non-shard based magic system" and then immediately links that to people coming back after death.

So I don't think it's anyone's magic system. 

14 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Regarding the extra investiture, Khriss very specifically talking about shades there. She begins the para with “let me tell you what is magically happening with shades on threnody”. 

Yes.. And then she explains how something becomes a Cognitive Shadow generally, because that's what they are. 

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2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I thi k pieces being ripped off and separated

I think it is about the shard and lose of investiture as a result. 
 

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I don't think that Odium’s tactics changed at all. I think he was attempting business as usual right up until Honor and Cultivation trapped him

Well we don’t know what really happened here. How did they trap him? I think they somehow got him to form some pact with them resulting with him investing in the Rosharan system. Which he did because he wanted to change tactics and needed time to recuperate from his battle with ambition. 
 

6 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Which is also why I find his repeated loses as a far more likely source than either of the previous fights for him being called the Broken One.

I doubt this because at this point desolations are fights between honor’s and odium’s representatives and I do not think there was any very direct involvement of honor ir odium in these desolations other than providing infinite investiture to heralds and fused respectively. So, since the involvement was so minimal, in earlier desolations, I doubt that odium “broke” because he kept loosing in desolations. 
In fact, odium’s representatives are still very much with him continuing their fight(minus sja-anat) whereas Honor has had his heralds break their oaths to him again and again and again. Ultimately throwing away his oaths completely and bringing the oathpact to the brink of its death. So, if anyone was broken because of desolations, I think it was honor and not odium. 

 

13 minutes ago, Calderis said:

He specifically says that Threnody has a "non-shard based magic system

Non-shard based yes, but loose investiture. I think Everything that is happening there is due to loose investiture from both odium and ambition running amok in the system. Although, I do think that this loose investiture constitutes more of ambition’s than odium’s but odium’s is there too. This loose investiture can also explain why a perpendicularity might appear on threnody sometimes but is unstable. 

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