What happens when one speaks an ideal

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

Several times in the book the POV character has spoken an ideal in time of great peril . Usually that person was on the brink of death, stormlight almost run out and then blam they speak the ideal and are  invigorated. 

       Im suggesting when one speaks an ideal something happens that infuses the Radiant with full power of stormlight . Kaladin when he was fighting Moaah and graves . Dalinar when he was on his knees and Odium burned the way of Kong’s , even Lift when facing Darkness , she hadn’t eaten in a while the stump refused to feed her . Yet all three were powerful after the words 

          We haven’t seen anyone speak a 4th ideal , but I imagine they will get there armor and that should take a fascinating amount of power to manifest it for the first time . What do you guys think ? Dio the words infuse them with power?

[Calderis]

There does appear to be some kind of power up at the moment of an oath, at least in the case of Windrunners, and Bondsmiths (and by extension of the WoB that explains that, Stonewards) 

I don't think plate is something that automatically happens though. For one thing, Shallan is at her Fourth, and for another we know that plate was available to all, but many never chose to get it because they weren't soldiers. 

Quote

Argent (paraphrased)

Did all orders of Knights Radiants use Shardplate?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It was available to all of them, and they could (all) use it. Many Knights (not Orders) chose not to. There were Knights who were not soldiers and had not interest in wearing Shardplate.

Steelheart Chicago signing (Oct. 1, 2013)

 

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

@Calderis for windrunners we know Honorspren are the blades and I’m guessing wind spren are what makes up the plate. Do you think all orders have a sub spren unique to thier Order. Or do you think Radiant plate is made from something else . I doubt it’s all orders will use the same lower spren to form armor. 

          Also I wonder if Dalinar can have plate ? I know Stormfather said he would be without shards . But , if it’s available to everyone , maybe Stormfather doesn’t have anything to do with the plate and won’t be opposed to it 

[Calderis]

18 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

@Calderis for windrunners we know Honorspren are the blades and I’m guessing wind spren are what makes up the plate. Do you think all orders have a sub spren unique to thier Order. Or do you think Radiant plate is made from something else . I doubt it’s all orders will use the same lower spren to form armor.

I do think there's an associated spren for each order, and no... I really don't think those spren are the plate. And I really don't have the energy to get into that debate for the nth time right now. 

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

I also think as a Radiant gets to higher ideals , his efficiency at using stormlight gets better . We see this most notably with shallan

[Honorless]

Shallan is difficult to gauge though, due to her re swearing her Ideals and her rather finicky memory. Let's wait till other characters get their Shardplate. Like Cal said, the Radiants probably don't get plate automatically upon swearing a certain level of Ideal. Also, again agreed with Cal, there are definitely secondary spren to each Order but they shouldn't be what forms the plate itself, otherwise there would've been some grumbling from the spren about plates too as well as some reaction from the plates, like the screaming from swords. I know they aren't as intelligent as bond-capable spren but still. If plates are made of multiple secondary spren, they would be bonded, in some manner, we haven't seen any indications of this yet. What Adolin saw around Jasnah in Thaylen City, if it was her de-summoning her plate then it definitely doesn't appear to be made of spren, and I do believe that what we he momentarily saw was her Shardplate. Plus, I think the secondary spren are simply connected to their respective Surges, Kaladin got Windspren while using Adhesion for manipulating pressure and vacuum to create a calm in the storm, Dalinar got Gloryspren while using spiritual Adhesion on the Realms. They also seem to appear when a Radiant is close to speaking a higher Ideal: fourth for Kaladin, third for Dalinar. They might be involved with Shardplate but I don't think Shardplates are made of these spren. Let's talk about the secondary spren themselves then: Windspren for Windrunners, Gloryspren for Bondsmiths, Lifespren for Truthwatchers, Creationspren for Lightweavers, what do you think are the secondary spren of each Order? 

Edited November 18, 2019 by Honorless

[Karger]

3 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

          Also I wonder if Dalinar can have plate ? I know Stormfather said he would be without shards . But , if it’s available to everyone , maybe Stormfather doesn’t have anything to do with the plate and won’t be opposed to it 

They seem to be associated with gloryspren.

 

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

I do think there's an associated spren for each order, and no... I really don't think those spren are the plate. And I really don't have the energy to get into that debate for the nth time right now. 

The sub spren shardplate is a conventional theory though.  In fact most people default to it when they are trying to figure out the answer to the question"where does plate come from."  It does have some problems but we don't really know much about plate anyway.

1 hour ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

I also think as a Radiant gets to higher ideals , his efficiency at using stormlight gets better . We see this most notably with shallan

 

8 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Shallan is difficult to gauge though, due to her re swearing her Ideals and her rather finicky memory

Skybreaker squires also have a lower efficacy.  This seems to be pretty consistent as these things go.

 

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

5 minutes ago, Honorless said:

what do you think are the secondary spren of each Order

I’m glad you asked . I want to make a list for each Radiant . Stonewards will be hard. And I mean hard . Naturally we want to say stone spren . But the spren of Stone is a mega spren . So my guess would be clay spren . I would say lifespren could be used for edgedancer . Elsecallers Logic spren perhaps, Willshapers I have no idea , awe spren , I’m throw that out as craxkpot guess, based on the fact that Venli wants to impress  her people . And finally Dustbringers shock spren .!?  I think figuring out the sub spren for each order would be the most intriguing project for me!!!

[Aon Tia]

I do think that lesser spren might have something to do with shardplates.. seeing as kaladin was surrounded by windspren every time syl said he was close to swearing the 4th ideal. Also, syl likes when kal attracts windspren but gets jealous with gloryspren Yes so far the ones that we have seen.. 

windrunners - windspren, lightweavers -creationspren, elsecallers - logicspren, Edgedancers- lifespren, bondsmith atleast the stormfather one - gloryspren, dustbringers - smokespren, willshapers - swiftspren 

 

[Calderis]

45 minutes ago, Karger said:

The sub spren shardplate is a conventional theory though.  In fact most people default to it when they are trying to figure out the answer to the question"where does plate come from."

It is. It's everyone's first guess the moment you find out what shardblades are. So you combine the issues with it, with the secrecy and buildup Brandon's placed around it, and it just doesn't add up to me. 

7 minutes ago, The traveller said:

I do think that lesser spren might have something to do with shardplates.. seeing as kaladin was surrounded by windspren every time syl said he was close to swearing the 4th ideal. Also, syl likes when kal attracts windspren but gets jealous with gloryspren Yes so far the ones that we have seen... 

I definitely think they're involved. I just don't think that they are the plate like a spren is a shardblade. 

[Winds Alight]

11 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

I also think as a Radiant gets to higher ideals , his efficiency at using stormlight gets better . We see this most notably with shallan

Kaladin is a very good example as well.
First we see it by the end of Way of Kings. Before he swears the first Ideal, he gets utterly exhausted after using Stormligh for "minor" Lashings. During the battle at the tower he swears the first and second Ideal and gets notably stronger and when he levels up at the end of Words of Radiance with the Third Ideal his powers become much stronger.
I don't know which book exactly it's in, but at one point he explicitly mentions that he needs less Stormlight and uses it up slower in a fight than before.

[Config2]

15 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

@Calderis for windrunners we know Honorspren are the blades and I’m guessing wind spren are what makes up the plate. Do you think all orders have a sub spren unique to thier Order. Or do you think Radiant plate is made from something else . I doubt it’s all orders will use the same lower spren to form armor. 

          Also I wonder if Dalinar can have plate ? I know Stormfather said he would be without shards . But , if it’s available to everyone , maybe Stormfather doesn’t have anything to do with the plate and won’t be opposed to it 

I don't think Dalinar can get plate. The whole lesser spren are plate thing is a different thread realistically. But I have a feeling that Dalinar cannot have, or is far beyond plate.

11 hours ago, Honorless said:

Shallan is difficult to gauge though, due to her re swearing her Ideals and her rather finicky memory. Let's wait till other characters get their Shardplate. Like Cal said, the Radiants probably don't get plate automatically upon swearing a certain level of Ideal. Also, again agreed with Cal, there are definitely secondary spren to each Order but they shouldn't be what forms the plate itself, otherwise there would've been some grumbling from the spren about plates too as well as some reaction from the plates, like the screaming from swords. I know they aren't as intelligent as bond-capable spren but still. If plates are made of multiple secondary spren, they would be bonded, in some manner, we haven't seen any indications of this yet. What Adolin saw around Jasnah in Thaylen City, if it was her de-summoning her plate then it definitely doesn't appear to be made of spren, and I do believe that what we he momentarily saw was her Shardplate. Plus, I think the secondary spren are simply connected to their respective Surges, Kaladin got Windspren while using Adhesion for manipulating pressure and vacuum to create a calm in the storm, Dalinar got Gloryspren while using spiritual Adhesion on the Realms. They also seem to appear when a Radiant is close to speaking a higher Ideal: fourth for Kaladin, third for Dalinar. They might be involved with Shardplate but I don't think Shardplates are made of these spren. Let's talk about the secondary spren themselves then: Windspren for Windrunners, Gloryspren for Bondsmiths, Lifespren for Truthwatchers, Creationspren for Lightweavers, what do you think are the secondary spren of each Order? 

11 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

I’m glad you asked . I want to make a list for each Radiant . Stonewards will be hard. And I mean hard . Naturally we want to say stone spren . But the spren of Stone is a mega spren . So my guess would be clay spren . I would say lifespren could be used for edgedancer . Elsecallers Logic spren perhaps, Willshapers I have no idea , awe spren , I’m throw that out as craxkpot guess, based on the fact that Venli wants to impress  her people . And finally Dustbringers shock spren .!?  I think figuring out the sub spren for each order would be the most intriguing project for me!!!

I think chances are that the secondary spren are part of the equation with plate, but not the whole answer. Shallan also has plate on Thaylen field in all likelihood. When Jasnah comes to find her, and all but Radiant in plate disappear at a touch, it seems likely that her plate is real and not an illusion. As for the lesser spren;

Windspren are 100% Windrunner

Gloryspren are 100% Bondsmith

Lifespren are 50% Edgedancer I think. They definitely seem to follow Lift around in her Novella. I don't think they are Truthwatcher spren.

Creationspren are 100% Lightweaver

Logic Spren or Concentration Spren are 50% Elsecaller

The spren used for Half Shards are either the primary or secondary spren for the Stonewards (as Mr. T comments on it, and his offhand comments are rarely just that)

I'm pretty sure Decay Spren are Dustbringer (I'll give it 25%, since there isn't really any evidence for it in the books so far, but makes a lot of intuitive sense)

Awe-spren make sense for Willshapers in a way, but it's a fairly un-intuitive way. Like surprise and awe at the new wonders the Willshapers always find during exploration? Eshonai might attract one in Kholinar during the OB opening, I cant remember.

Skybreakers I got nothing on.

Truthwatchers I got nothing on. Could be whichever of the two that isn't Elsecaller.

[Quantus]

16 hours ago, Calderis said:

There does appear to be some kind of power up at the moment of an oath, at least in the case of Windrunners, and Bondsmiths (and by extension of the WoB that explains that, Stonewards) 

This is also evident with Shallan.  She was able to access Shadesmar that first time by speaking a Truth and riding the boost of power, but Pattern later told her that if she wanted to do it again she'd have to progress and speak more Truths.  I think each time a radiant swears a new Ideal and increases their Bond, there is a surge of power that is flavored by the actual Surges of their Order.  So Bondsmiths and Windrunners get surges of raw Power because of the nature of their Surge(s), which Represent Connections themselves and are very close to Honor himself, whereas Lightweavers (and Id guess Elscallers and Truthwatchers) get a boost in Realmic Access because of their Transformation/Transportation capabilities.  

Random fun fact: we know of milestone events (surges, blades, squires, plate, etc) at each Ideal.  But the only thing we know about the 5th is that the Spren say they have ways of severing the Bond until the 5th, but after that they cannot.  This implies to me that the Bond somehow becomes "complete" at that point and if nothing else has likely reached maximum efficiency.

 

12 hours ago, Honorless said:

Shallan is difficult to gauge though, due to her re swearing her Ideals and her rather finicky memory. Let's wait till other characters get their Shardplate. Like Cal said, the Radiants probably don't get plate automatically upon swearing a certain level of Ideal. Also, again agreed with Cal, there are definitely secondary spren to each Order but they shouldn't be what forms the plate itself, otherwise there would've been some grumbling from the spren about plates too as well as some reaction from the plates, like the screaming from swords. I know they aren't as intelligent as bond-capable spren but still.

I know this is a common complaint, but I personally dont see it as being anything more than circumstantial.  The lesser spren are seen as animals by the sapient spren.  Syl even mentions that her aunt (a Honorspren, no less) likes to hunt some kinds.  That being the case, Plate could very easily be the spren-cultural equivalent of wearing Leather.   Nobody would blink at a leather jacket, but you have a Human leather jacket and suddenly your are the plot of an Anthony Hopkins movie.  

12 hours ago, Honorless said:

If plates are made of multiple secondary spren, they would be bonded, in some manner, we haven't seen any indications of this yet. 

I agree about there needing to be a Bond involved, but I could see it as being the spren equivalent of Squires.  So Kaladin can create semi-temporary Bonds to other humans (Squires) at the 3rd, and if Im right Syl will be able to bond her Lesser spren in a similar fashion once they reach the 4th to facilitate the Plate. 

[Honorless]

46 minutes ago, Quantus said:

This is also evident with Shallan.  She was able to access Shadesmar that first time by speaking a Truth and riding the boost of power, but Pattern later told her that if she wanted to do it again she'd have to progress and speak more Truths.  I think each time a radiant swears a new Ideal and increases their Bond, there is a surge of power that is flavored by the actual Surges of their Order.  So Bondsmiths and Windrunners get surges of raw Power because of the nature of their Surge(s), which Represent Connections themselves and are very close to Honor himself, whereas Lightweavers (and Id guess Elscallers and Truthwatchers) get a boost in Realmic Access because of their Transformation/Transportation capabilities.  

Random fun fact: we know of milestone events (surges, blades, squires, plate, etc) at each Ideal.  But the only thing we know about the 5th is that the Spren say they have ways of severing the Bond until the 5th, but after that they cannot.  This implies to me that the Bond somehow becomes "complete" at that point and if nothing else has likely reached maximum efficiency.

 

I know this is a common complaint, but I personally dont see it as being anything more than circumstantial.  The lesser spren are seen as animals by the sapient spren.  Syl even mentions that her aunt (a Honorspren, no less) likes to hunt some kinds.  That being the case, Plate could very easily be the spren-cultural equivalent of wearing Leather. Nobody would blink at a leather jacket, but you have a Human leather jacket and suddenly your are the plot of an Anthony Hopkins movie.  

I agree about there needing to be a Bond involved, but I could see it as being the spren equivalent of Squires.  So Kaladin can create semi-temporary Bonds to other humans (Squires) at the 3rd, and if Im right Syl will be able to bond her Lesser spren in a similar fashion once they reach the 4th to facilitate the Plate. 

Huh, I didn't see it that way. To note, I do think that lesser spren are involved in the process, just that the plates don't need to be made of them. Intriguing solution to bonding lesser spren for plate, I must say, and that is one of my main quibbles with that theory. That being said, what of Jasnah & Shallan's Thaylen City scene though? Where Adolin sees geometric patterns around Jasnah and Radiant turns out to be the real Shallan with possibly real plate? Where were the lesser spren? Also if plates are made of lesser spren, would they use different spren each time or use the same set of spren every time? So temporary bonds each time they form a plate or a few lesser spren also following them around? The former seems more likely with this theory... Strange questions crop up with this theory, I think Brandon is keeping plates away for this long for a reason and that they are not this straightforward.

Also I do think that getting Shardplate would be more related to Nahel Bond than the system of Surgebinding itself since the Heralds don't seem to have Shardplate equivalent, do point out if I just missed it.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Honorless

[Calderis]

Meh. Until there's something to address the Identity conflict issue, I just don't see how it can be spren.

The plate blocks the Surges of everyone but the wearer. That means that the Investiture of the plate itself is keyed to the Radiant. Spren should have an Identity of their own and I can't believe for a moment that the lesser spren have a deep enough bond with the Radiant to provide the level of Spiritual merger that would allow them both to enter into the Physical like a shardblade, and to share the Identity of the Radiant to the point that the Investiture of the plate is indistinguishable from that of the person. If that were the case, plate should be as "dead" as the blade and should scream. The argument that lesser spren aren't of the level of Cognitive function to allow those screams sounds a lot to me like arguing that a dog won't whine when you kick it because they're less intelligent than humans.

The differences between blade and plate are numerous. As I said, I absolutely believe that the spren are involved in plates creation. But them actually being the plate has a number of issues I find problematic. 

[Quantus]

2 hours ago, Honorless said:

Huh, I didn't see it that way. To note, I do think that lesser spren are involved in the process, just that the plates don't need to be made of them. Intriguing solution to bonding lesser spren for plate, I must say, and that is one of my main quibbles with that theory. That being said, what of Jasnah & Shallan's Thaylen City scene though? Where Adolin sees geometric patterns around Jasnah and Radiant turns out to be the real Shallan with possibly real plate? Where were the lesser spren? Also if plates are made of lesser spren, would they use different spren each time or use the same set of spren every time? So temporary bonds each time they form a plate or a few lesser spren also following them around? The former seems more likely with this theory... Strange questions crop up with this theory, I think Brandon is keeping plates away for this long for a reason and that they are not this straightforward.

Also I do think that getting Shardplate would be more related to Nahel Bond than the system of Surgebinding itself since the Heralds don't seem to have Shardplate equivalent, do point out if I just missed it.

Regarding those brief glimpses with Shallan and Jasnah, I agree that was plate but just figured the different Orders would have different display patterns when they summon or dismiss their plate.  As far as whether it's the same spren or new 'local' spren each time, I lean toward the former but functionally I dont know how much difference it would make.  If they are the same spren, they could be called from anywhere in the cognitive realm just like a Deadeye can be summoned near-instantly regardless of proximity to the relative location of the bonded summoner.  

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Meh. Until there's something to address the Identity conflict issue, I just don't see how it can be spren.

The plate blocks the Surges of everyone but the wearer. That means that the Investiture of the plate itself is keyed to the Radiant. Spren should have an Identity of their own and I can't believe for a moment that the lesser spren have a deep enough bond with the Radiant to provide the level of Spiritual merger that would allow them both to enter into the Physical like a shardblade, and to share the Identity of the Radiant to the point that the Investiture of the plate is indistinguishable from that of the person. If that were the case, plate should be as "dead" as the blade and should scream. The argument that lesser spren aren't of the level of Cognitive function to allow those screams sounds a lot to me like arguing that a dog won't whine when you kick it because they're less intelligent than humans.

That's fair.  I think the spren-squire model has the potential to reconcile some of that, but it would getting even further into speculation territory, so these are more just possibilities that could prove true rather than any held belief.  The difference between lesser and sapient Spren is a quantitative one, with the intelligent spren (and more intelligent species in general) have quite a bit more Investiture than the rest.  Perhaps their Identity is still present but simple downed out by the much 'stronger/louder Identity and Investiture of the Radiant.  I dont see as much need for the lesser spren Bond to anything close to the Nahel bond as you do, on the logic that it is by a wide margin the deepest Bond of those we've seen with spren, but others like the gemheart Bond have equally dramatic effects.   

Regardless of that aspect though, if the lesser spren are utilizing a Bond that is similar in aspect to the Squire's Bond, then I think it would be piggy-backing the Nahel Bond more than Rivaling/Matching it.  It would be the same way Squires get full Surge use without having their own souls Bonded, and as far as I can tell they have no direct need to maintain Ideals beyond staying in good standing with the Radiant and their Spren.   The distance limitation makes me think it's a Cognitive Bond rather than a Spiritual one (nahel bond) or a Physical one (Gemheart Form Bond), so it would likely behave it a lot of distinct ways. 

Another distinction that might be playing a role with the Plate is that unlike a Blade, the plate actually uses Fuel and needs to be constantly supplied with stormlight.  Perhaps the reason a Radiant's own Plate doesnt block their own surges is about the Identity suffused in the Stormlight being fed to fuel the Plate, rather than the Identity of whatever the plate is made of (spren or otherwise).  

I think this leads to a test Question: Can a Squire's Surges penetrate their own Radiant's Plate?  We'll have to wait and see for that datapoint, but both Shallan and Kaladin are close. 

 

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

The differences between blade and plate are numerous. As I said, I absolutely believe that the spren are involved in plates creation. But them actually being the plate has a number of issues I find problematic. 

Spit-balling alternatives:  Maybe it's a sort of Soulcasting effect, using the lesser spren somehow in the process but using the Beads of local matter?  This has some doylistic merit in light of the WOB that he'd originally intended all orders to be able to Soulcast their own essence, but felt it made the orders less distinct.  However, if that is the case I will fully expect there to be noticeable losses of local air or stone or something any time it's summoned, just like there is displacement effects when you Soulcast. 

Another alternative is that it's somehow more akin to a Singer Form, with the Lesser Spren in some sort of bond (less deep than the full Nahel Bond) as a template for creating the Plate in the physical realm?  Not sure what would be playing the role of realmic anchor the way the Gemheart seems to, unless the Invested Radiant themselves is filling that role (being the only thing in the equation with a native Physical Realm presence).  

[Honorless]

6 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Regarding those brief glimpses with Shallan and Jasnah, I agree that was plate but just figured the different Orders would have different display patterns when they summon or dismiss their plate.

That doesn't address the issue I raised. Where were these spren when Jasnah and Shallan formed and dismissed their plate ? (if that is indeed what we saw)

Edited November 18, 2019 by Honorless

[Eugenides]

21 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

Several times in the book the POV character has spoken an ideal in time of great peril . Usually that person was on the brink of death, stormlight almost run out and then blam they speak the ideal and are  invigorated. 

       Im suggesting when one speaks an ideal something happens that infuses the Radiant with full power of stormlight . Kaladin when he was fighting Moaah and graves . Dalinar when he was on his knees and Odium burned the way of Kong’s , even Lift when facing Darkness , she hadn’t eaten in a while the stump refused to feed her . Yet all three were powerful after the words 

          We haven’t seen anyone speak a 4th ideal , but I imagine they will get there armor and that should take a fascinating amount of power to manifest it for the first time . What do you guys think ? Dio the words infuse them with power?

Spoilers!

My guess is that it has something to do with the spiritual and cognitive realms. When Dalinar went all  I AM UNITY he fused the three realms for a brief time and as such supercharged the Radiants around him. I think when one speaks an ideal, it does something similar on a lesser scale

[Quantus]

4 minutes ago, Honorless said:

That doesn't address the issue I raised. Where were these spren when Jasnah and Shallan formed and dismissed their plate ? (if that is indeed what we saw)

Im not sure I understand the question?  I dont think they would need to be visible anywhere prior to the summoning and/or dismissal, any more than a Creation-spren are nessesarily visible before Shallan or whomever does something to pull them from the CR.  That being said, I couldnt say if they were local (in which case somebody like Rock might have seen them coming or going) or if they are called from the CR like a Shardblade, in which case I think they just "Drop" on the CR side and appear in the place and form they were called to.

 

[Honorless]

Possible... Let's go back to what would need to happen in order for Shardplate to be made of lesser spren. There would need to be a Bond with the Radiant (or possibly the Nahel spren) as well as bonding with one another.

The bond sworn by the Radiant might be temporary, re-sworn each time they wish to summon their plate or a general bond that simply makes them worthy of Shardplate which attracts the nearby secondary spren to form their plate or a specific bond to a specific group of lesser spren.

From what we have seen of plate, they don't seem as alive as Shardblade, though that might be because they are not sapient, but also note that they should be dead, yet Shardplate reforms when broken.

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

33 minutes ago, Eugenides said:

Spoilers!

My guess is that it has something to do with the spiritual and cognitive realms. When Dalinar went all  I AM UNITY he fused the three realms for a brief time and as such supercharged the Radiants around him. I think when one speaks an ideal, it does something similar on a lesser scale

I have never been one to be technical but I think your right . When they speak an ideal there spiritweb probably changes . The spirit realm is where the infusing properties come from iirc . So this brief contact burst thru temporarily invigorating the Radiant .

[Aon Tia]

8 hours ago, Honorless said:

Where were these spren when Jasnah and Shallan formed and dismissed their plate ? (if that is indeed what we saw)

@Honorless valid concerns but here is my reasoning for how it works..

I don’t think that that we will see the spren prior to forming the plate or after the plate is dismissed. Very similar to how we do not see the truespren before he is forming a shardblade. The lesser spren are attracted from the CR instantly form the plate and then when it is dismissed, poof, go back to CR instantly. All that should be visible is the plate itself and not the spren forming it. 
 

8 hours ago, Honorless said:

There would need to be a Bond with the Radiant (or possibly the Nahel spren) as well as bonding with one another.

The bond sworn by the Radiant might be temporary, re-sworn each time they wish to summon their plate or a general bond that simply makes them worthy of Shardplate which attracts the nearby secondary spren to form their plate or a specific bond to a specific group of lesser spren

8 hours ago, Honorless said:

The bond already exists between the radiant and the truespren. I think the truespren act as the binding agents between the radiant and the lesser spren forming the plate. I don’t think a new bond is formed between the radiant and lesser spren for the formation of the plate. 

in the vision of Recreance, we see that the shardblade is discarded along with the plate immediately afterwards. The oath has been forsaken to the truespren rendering the spren a deadeye and consequently the Lesser spren were locked in shardplate form forever. 

I think these lesser spren are specific bunch of spren which have been attracted that first time the fourth ideal is spoken. They are summoned instantly By the side of the radiant the moment the plate is required to be formed just like in the case of deadeyes. 

8 hours ago, Honorless said:

general bond that simply makes them worthy of Shardplate which attracts the nearby secondary spren

Note that there are no “nearby secondary spren” in the Physical Realm. The confusion comes from windspren that are the only spren that are permanently in the PR.  Other lesser spren like creationspren or lifespren are in the cognitive realm and will be summoned from there directly to the side of radiant when plate is being formed. So I think the plate is formed by specific lesser spren which are attracted once permanently at the time of swearing of the fourth ideal by the radiant. The same lesser spren will be manifesting each time to form the plate. 
 

8 hours ago, Honorless said:

From what we have seen of plate, they don't seem as alive as Shardblade, though that might be because they are not sapient, but also note that they should be dead, yet Shardplate reforms when broken.

I agree the shardplate is not as alive because the lesser spren are not sapient. Since, it is not as alive, it is not so much dead either. Your explanation works both ways according to me. Because the plate  is not as dead, radiants do not hear the screams as they do with blades. And since the plate is not as dead, it can heal itself when fed investiture from gems or from the radiant directly as we have seen during the duel with kaladin wrapping the helmet around his wrist. 
I think shardplate is not dead, it is merely locked in that state forever because the truespren is dead. 

Edited November 19, 2019 by The traveller

[Config2]

I second @The traveller with the trapped rather than dead aspect. It seems that most lesser spren are actually less than animals in terms of sapience. They seems closer to bacteria, with their only driving force a desire to be near their inspiring characteristic (wind spren seem to be a little different than this). The mandras, which may or may not be luck spren, seem to be entirely mindless. Same with the anticipation spren.

They wouldn't really know if they became permanently trapped on the PR in another form.

There is some timey-whimey-whibbly-whobbly stuff about transitive property that should be mentioned. If the truespren bonds the lesser spren, but is already bound to the radiant, then the radiant is bonding the lesser spren. The true spren would only be supplying the cognitive intent to form the plate beyond what the radiant is really supplying. Connection is a transitive effect, so the true spren isn't really supplying that. This may seem like a meaningless distinction, and ultimately it is, assuming that the theory is right to begin with, but gives us a better idea of how the Nahel bond works.

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

I think the biggest clue that plate is lesser spren is the fact that is there in the first place . 

      So when the knights broke thier oaths it killed the spren of the knight . A shardblade is formed . When that spren died , all lesser spren attached to it died as well . We don’t hear screams because lesser spren are mindless. The fact that the plate is there shows thier were lesser spren attached to it 

        My theory is the spren is an organic fabrial . It captured the lesser spren and used them to form plate. When the spren the lesser spren died as well . It’s not different spren attracted each time the plate is formed but a specific clutch of spren that the main higher used each time the knight wanted to form his or her plate. 

         The Higher spren cannot form the plate until it’s nahel bond is strong enough with the respective Radiant . I imagine this. Varies between different orders . Windrunners don’t get it until 4th . While Lightweavers could possibly get it much earlier . I think Shallan has her plate and just doesn’t remember or realizes she has it . That plate that Radiant was wearing during the battle probably was real , Shallan couldn’t have formed it unless she had seen it previously and just blocked it out. @Calderis you spent a lot of time thinking about this , could that possibly work? Spren copies what they saw the Heralds doing ; could they copied what they saw the humans doing too , which is making fabrials . And found a way to be an organic fabrial ? 

 

[Calderis]

27 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

My theory is the spren is an organic fabrial . It captured the lesser spren and used them to form plate. When the spren the lesser spren died as well . It’s not different spren attracted each time the plate is formed but a specific clutch of spren that the main higher used each time the knight wanted to form his or her plate. 

 

28 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

@Calderis you spent a lot of time thinking about this , could that possibly work? Spren copies what they saw the Heralds doing ; could they copied what they saw the humans doing too , which is making fabrials . And found a way to be an organic fabrial ? 

In my opinion no, because this doesn't address my primary conflict with with the spren plate theory. 

The plate is Investiture that is keyed to the Radiant, which is why it allows the radiants Surges to bypass or effect it, but no one else's. That should out the Radiant as the source of that Investiture. Whether from their soul, or from having been held.