Karger Posted December 20, 2019 Report Share Posted December 20, 2019 1 hour ago, Steel Inquisitive said: Jasnah is clearly wrong because there's a WoB that implies Lightweavers might be able to travel physically into the CR using their surges. Even if text didn't trump WoB that's a bold statement. 47 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: When Shallan used the oathgate, Sja-anat's sent her to the cognitive realm. When Kaladin and Co reached Thaylenah, they all asked Shallan to transfer them again. She could not. Dalinar opened a perpendicularity that they used to transfer. In both situations Shallan was not the one causing them to transition. An outside force did. She just used that force. Any transition was completely unconnected to her soulcasting that she gets from being a lightweaver. Where in Oathbringer, when using her own powers, did she completely physically transfer to the cognitive realm and back? Because I cannot recall a single time. Jasnah is wrong because she herself transfers only a little while latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted December 20, 2019 Report Share Posted December 20, 2019 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said: Jasnah is wrong because she herself transfers only a little while latter. Could you elaborate? Because it sounds like you are saying because Jasnah the elsecaller that has transportation and we have seen transfer to the cognitive fully and physically has done so, then Shallan, a lightweaver with soulcasting only has done so. And to be clear, once more full transfer of your entire body. Not the investiture bubble/astral travel, which leaves the body in the physical realm. Is that what you are saying? Edited December 20, 2019 by Pathfinder 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted December 20, 2019 Report Share Posted December 20, 2019 9 hours ago, Pathfinder said: "Not too far" Jasnah warned "You can't bring your physical self into the realm, as I once assumed you could, but there are things here that can feast upon your mind." 3 hours ago, Pathfinder said: Could you elaborate? Because it sounds like you are saying because Jasnah the elsecaller that has transportation and we have seen transfer to the cognitive fully and physically has done so, then Shallan, a lightweaver with soulcasting only has done so. And to be clear, once more full transfer of your entire body. Not the investiture bubble/astral travel, which leaves the body in the physical realm. Is that what you are saying? I interpret this quote to mean that at the time of saying this Jasnah does not believe it possible to fully transition cognitive side for anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted December 20, 2019 Report Share Posted December 20, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said: I interpret this quote to mean that at the time of saying this Jasnah does not believe it possible to fully transition cognitive side for anyone. Then your interpretation is that lightweavers cannot fully transition to the cognitive realm because the full quote is jasnah teaching shallan soulcasting. Jasnah fully transfers via transportation (in words of radiance, prior to this quote which is in oathbringer), not transformation. Shallan only has access to transformation. So if you are saying you interpret jasnah to say that via soulcasting it is not possible to fully transition to the cognitive side then you are saying what I said from the beginning. With transformation only, you can only "astral project ". You cannot fully transition. So lightweavers cannot fully transition. Only elsecallers and willshapers “Come,” Jasnah said, pulling Veil back to the wall, where steps grew from the stone itself. “Soulcast?” Shallan asked. “Yes.” Jasnah stepped onto the first, but Shallan didn’t follow. “We shouldn’t have ignored this,” Radiant said. “We should have practiced this.” She slipped—for a moment—into viewing Shadesmar. Beads rolled and surged beneath her. “Not too far,” Jasnah warned. “You can’t bring your physical self into the realm, as I once assumed you could, but there are things here that can feast upon your mind.” “If I want to Soulcast the air. How?” “Avoid air until you practice further,” Jasnah said. “It is convenient, but difficult to control. Why don’t you try to turn some stone into oil, as I did? We can fire it as we climb the steps, and further impede the enemy.” Edited December 20, 2019 by Pathfinder 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted December 20, 2019 Report Share Posted December 20, 2019 7 hours ago, Pathfinder said: Then your interpretation is that lightweavers cannot fully transition to the cognitive realm because the full quote is jasnah teaching shallan soulcasting. Jasnah fully transfers via transportation (in words of radiance, prior to this quote which is in oathbringer), not transformation. Shallan only has access to transformation. So if you are saying you interpret jasnah to say that via soulcasting it is not possible to fully transition to the cognitive side then you are saying what I said from the beginning. With transformation only, you can only "astral project ". You cannot fully transition. So lightweavers cannot fully transition. Only elsecallers and willshapers What I am saying that at the time of speaking Jasnah does not believe it possible for a human to enter the CR at all. In fact at the time of saying this we have no indication that she has or knows how to use the surge of transportation. She seems considerably more powerful and practiced in Oathbringer then in WoR That line. 7 hours ago, Pathfinder said: “You can’t bring your physical self into the realm, as I once assumed you could, but there are things here that can feast upon your mind.” “If I want to Soulcast the air. How?” “Avoid air until you practice further,” Jasnah said. “It is convenient, but difficult to control. Why don’t you try to turn some stone into oil, as I did? We can fire it as we climb the steps, and further impede the enemy.” Might actually indicate that when she first went through shadesmar she thought she got their via soulcasting and only latter learned that she. The order of events as I see them is this. 1. Jasnah believes humans cannot enter shadesmar 2. Jasnah enters shadesmar and assumes that she soulcast herself their 3. Jasnah learns about transportation and now assumes that was the method she used to enter shadesmar and that soulcasting actually can't do it. She may or may not be correct but WoB evidence indicates that it might be possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted December 20, 2019 Report Share Posted December 20, 2019 56 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said: What I am saying that at the time of speaking Jasnah does not believe it possible for a human to enter the CR at all. In fact at the time of saying this we have no indication that she has or knows how to use the surge of transportation. She seems considerably more powerful and practiced in Oathbringer then in WoR I cannot understand the leap of logic that got you to that interpretation. How could she have convinced herself that no radiant including herself can travel Physcially to Shadesmar when this was after she was stuck there for an extended period of time, during which she had to scrounge packs and cloths and whatnot for basic survival? 56 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said: That line. Might actually indicate that when she first went through shadesmar she thought she got their via soulcasting and only latter learned that she. The order of events as I see them is this. 1. Jasnah believes humans cannot enter shadesmar 2. Jasnah enters shadesmar and assumes that she soulcast herself their 3. Jasnah learns about transportation and now assumes that was the method she used to enter shadesmar and that soulcasting actually can't do it. She may or may not be correct but WoB evidence indicates that it might be possible. I think you are reaching pretty far around the obvious explanation: Jasnah began training Shallan under the impression/assumption that Shallan was also an Elsecaller, which is the cover story Shallan was telling everyone anyway, once she was outed as Radiant. Once she figures out the difference, she realized she could not train Shallan on the assumption that they had identical capabilities. But there is really no reason for her to keep getting stuck in that sort of Absolutist logical fallacy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted December 20, 2019 Report Share Posted December 20, 2019 53 minutes ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said: I think you are reaching pretty far around the obvious explanation: Jasnah began training Shallan under the impression/assumption that Shallan was also an Elsecaller, which is the cover story Shallan was telling everyone anyway, once she was outed as Radiant. Once she figures out the difference, she realized she could not train Shallan on the assumption that they had identical capabilities. But there is really no reason for her to keep getting stuck in that sort of Absolutist logical fallacy. At what point in my order of events does Jasnah indicate that she knows Shallan is a lightweaver? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiberty Posted December 20, 2019 Report Share Posted December 20, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said: At what point in my order of events does Jasnah indicate that she knows Shallan is a lightweaver? Quote "They appear in my drawings," Shallan said. "They're around me, Jasnah. You don't see them? Am I--" Jasnah held up a hand. "These are a type of spren, Shallan. They are related to what you do" she tapped the desk softly. "Two orders of the Knights Radiant possessed inherent Soulcasting ability; it was based on their powers that the original fabrials were designed, I believe. I had assumed that you ... But no, that obviously wouldn't make sense. I see now." The Way of Kings chapter 72 - Veristitalian Edited December 20, 2019 by ChickenLiberty 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted December 21, 2019 Report Share Posted December 21, 2019 To put the information we have provided in order: 1. Jasnah only peers into the cognitive realm via soulcasting in Way of Kings 2. Jasnah realizes Shallan can soulcast and assumes she is an elsecaller as well in Way of Kings 3. (in the background at some point, Jasnah begs Ivory to show her how to fully transition via transportation but he will not) 4. Jasnah realizes Shallan is a lightweaver in Way of Kings 5. Assassins try to kill Jasnah in Words of Radiance 6. Ivory pulls Jasnah into the cognitive realm with transportation. Jasnah mentions how she has been asking him for this for ages, and only now he does it when her life was in danger and now she cannot help the people on the ship. This was in Words of Radiance. 7. All we see in the entirety of Way of Kings and Words of Radiance is Shallan use soulcasting to peer into the cogntive realm, but not fully transition. 8. Oathbringer Shallan goes to use the oathgate with her shardblade like any other radiant can do. Sja-anat says Odium wants her to kill them, but she will try to keep them safe. Instead of them teleporting, or dying, she sends them to the cogntive realm to prove she wants to ally with them. 9. Shallan and Co travel in the cognitive realm. They arrive at the Thaylenah gate. Shallan cannot transfer them back. She cannot convince the oathgate to let them through. 10. Dalinar opens up a perpendicularity. A perpendicularity punctures all three realms and allows travel between them. Shallan and Co use Dalinar's perpendicularity. 11. Jasnah and Shallan run into each other during the battle. At this point in the Stormlight Archive over all Shallan has not once under her own power transferred fully to the cogntive realm. Jasnah already has. When discussing soulcasting, Jasnah says whereas once she thought Shallan could transfer fully, now she realizes Shallan cannot. That even though Shallan can only peer into the cognitive realm with an investiture bubble, it is still very dangerous. That is the order that I know of. That is why I believe Elsecallers can peer into the cognitive realm and fully transfer while lightweavers can only peer in, and willshapers can only transfer fully. While Lightweavers and Willshapers only get one each, Elsecallers get both. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcaroRibeiro Posted December 21, 2019 Report Share Posted December 21, 2019 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: 11. Jasnah and Shallan run into each other during the battle. At this point in the Stormlight Archive over all Shallan has not once under her own power transferred fully to the cogntive realm. Jasnah already has. When discussing soulcasting, Jasnah says whereas once she thought Shallan could transfer fully, now she realizes Shallan cannot. That even though Shallan can only peer into the cognitive realm with an investiture bubble, it is still very dangerous. That is the order that I know of. That is why I believe Elsecallers can peer into the cognitive realm and fully transfer while lightweavers can only peer in, and willshapers can only transfer fully. While Lightweavers and Willshapers only get one each, Elsecallers get both. What the definition of "fully transfer" you're standing for? Edited December 21, 2019 by IcaroRibeiro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted December 21, 2019 Report Share Posted December 21, 2019 (edited) 27 minutes ago, IcaroRibeiro said: What the definition of "fully transfer" you're standing for? There are two ways to interact with the cognitive realm: 1. Transformation/Soulcasting - Create an "investiture bubble" that looks, speaks and everything like you in the cognitive realm. You can interact with beings in the cognitive realm, but your physical body still stands in the physical realm. Your physical body can still be attacked in the physical realm, and your investiture self can be attacked in the cognitive realm. When you end the effect, your investiture self pops and goes away 2. Transportation/Perpendicularity - You puncture a hole between realms and pass through. You are fully, physically in the cognitive realm. Nothing of "you" is still standing in the physical. You fully transferred to the cognitive. Below is the corresponding WoB that explains: Bromo_Sapien When somebody travels into the Cognitive Realm, what happens to their physical self? To their body? Like Elsecalling or through a Shardpool? Brandon Sanderson Well it depends on the way they’re doing it. The two ways you’ve mentioned transport the physical body. It’s actually creating a rift and slipping them through. But there are other ways that you kind of peek in, where your body’s saying it’s a little more astral projection-y in those cases. Bromo_Sapien So their physical self would also be in the Cognitive Realm? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Bromo_Sapien Okay. Brandon Sanderson Which is weird. Bromo_Sapien As opposed to somebody like Kelsier who died and no longer has a physical self. Brandon Sanderson Yes, right. Or when Shallan is Soulcasting and peeking in, and things like this. It can still be dangerous, because what’s happening is that little soul bubble there that’s manifesting into a version of your soul and then things can get at it in different ways and stuff. So... But yes, going in physically means you just pop between realms, and yeah, yeah… Bromo_Sapien And when they leave the Cognitive Realm their Physical self just leaves the Cognitive Realm the same... Brandon Sanderson Yep, mhm, yep. Bromo_Sapien Perfect. Brandon Sanderson Basically you’re transferring into Investiture and popping out of Investiture, so... Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017) Edited December 21, 2019 by Pathfinder 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted December 21, 2019 Report Share Posted December 21, 2019 @Pathfinder beat me by seconds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted December 21, 2019 Report Share Posted December 21, 2019 20 hours ago, Pathfinder said: 3. (in the background at some point, Jasnah begs Ivory to show her how to fully transition via transportation but he will not) How do we know that Jasnah even knows that transportation is the correct surge or that she began asking him at this point? 20 hours ago, Pathfinder said: Ivory pulls Jasnah into the cognitive realm with transportation I mostly agree with this but I am not 100% this is the entire secret of how it works otherwise willshapers should not have nearly as much of a problem with CR transitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiberty Posted December 21, 2019 Report Share Posted December 21, 2019 10 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said: How do we know that Jasnah even knows that transportation is the correct surge or that she began asking him at this point? I mostly agree with this but I am not 100% this is the entire secret of how it works otherwise willshapers should not have nearly as much of a problem with CR transitions. Maybe make a new post about this because it takes up over a page of this thread so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted December 23, 2019 Report Share Posted December 23, 2019 On 12/21/2019 at 5:20 PM, Ookla the Prolific said: How do we know that Jasnah even knows that transportation is the correct surge or that she began asking him at this point? Because it is in the deleted scene I just referenced. Brandon references it when asked what happened to Jasnah. On 12/21/2019 at 5:20 PM, Ookla the Prolific said: I mostly agree with this but I am not 100% this is the entire secret of how it works otherwise willshapers should not have nearly as much of a problem with CR transitions. But we have not seen a willshaper use transportation to say whether they even do or do not have a problem. On 12/21/2019 at 5:31 PM, ChickenLiberty said: Maybe make a new post about this because it takes up over a page of this thread so far. I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted December 23, 2019 Report Share Posted December 23, 2019 27 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Because it is in the deleted scene I just referenced. Brandon references it when asked what happened to Jasnah. That deleted scene was not eddied for continuity. 27 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: But we have not seen a willshaper use transportation to say whether they even do or do not have a problem. Referring to in world WoR quote that you already mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted December 23, 2019 Report Share Posted December 23, 2019 7 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said: That deleted scene was not eddied for continuity. Brandon in WoB references that scene for what happened to Jasnah when she popped out of the ship. It is canon. 7 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said: Referring to in world WoR quote that you already mentioned. Can you please post so I know what you are referring to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted December 23, 2019 Report Share Posted December 23, 2019 21 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Can you please post so I know what you are referring to? Here On 12/16/2019 at 0:54 PM, Pathfinder said: Are you referring to the quote talking about the elsecallers benevolence as the primary liaisons between the physical and cognitive realms? 25 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Brandon in WoB references that scene for what happened to Jasnah when she popped out of the ship. It is canon. Quote Manchester signing (Aug. 6, 2014) #12 Share Copy Play/Pause Brandon Sanderson A WARNING FROM BRANDON: This scene gives major spoilers for Words of Radiance. Please don’t continue unless you’ve finished that book. This is a very short sequence of Jasnah’s backstory I’ve been reading at signings. It’s not a polished draft. I often read very rough (and potentially continuity-error filled) sequences at signings as a special treat to people who attend. This scene is even rougher than most—first draft, and shouldn’t be taken as canon quite yet, as I haven’t firmed up or fixed all the terminology or Shadesmar interactions. Brandon Sanderson Jasnah Kholin opened her eyes and gasped, fingers rigid, clawing at the obsidian ground. A knife in her chest! She could feel it grinding on her bones as it slipped between two ribs, glancing off her sternum. She spasmed, rolling into a ball, quivering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted December 23, 2019 Report Share Posted December 23, 2019 35 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said: Here That quote says that the elsecallers are especially benevolent by letting anyone come with them. That although lightweavers and willshapers have powers associated to it, the elsecallers are the true masters. Which is perfectly in line with them having two powers that let them access the cognitive realm in two different ways. Can you explain what that quote is proving for you? Because I am at a loss. As to the WoB that you posed from 2014, here is one from 2016 Questioner 1 How was Jasnah able to teleport into the [Cognitive] Realm when she didn't seem to have any Stormlight in her in Words of Radiance? Brandon Sanderson She had enough. Questioner 1 She had enough. Brandon Sanderson Yeah. Questioner 1 And is it just teleportation-- *interrupted* Brandon Sanderson Let's say... Jasnah's figured out some things that other's haven't figured out, for one thing. *brief interruption* And, let's say that. But also, there's a little scene from it I wrote from her viewpoint just to know what was happening that's never going in the books. If you Google "Jasnah deleted scene Words of Radiance" you can read it. It talks about how she did what she did. Questioner 2 Oh good. Brandon Sanderson So that is out there. Just-- It was my reference for writing the scene. But-- One of her powers is called Elsecalling, which is basically popping in and out of Shadesmar more easily. It's hard for everyone else to do that. Questioner 2 My other question is, so when Shallan was on the land she was in the sea in SHadesmar. Brandon Sanderson Yes. Questioner 2 Is it exactly opposite? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, it's mirrored... Um... It's mirrored, yeah. Questioner 2 So any land is on sea. So she would have actually landed on land on the ocean. Brandon Sanderson Yeah... so... yes... Questioner 1 She kind of *inaudible* Questioner 2 Well that's, no for Jasnah that's... *interrupted* Brandon Sanderson Oh yeah yeah, Jasnah... In that scene where you see? She pops out in Shadesmar on the land. Questioner 2 So, was the scene at the end right as soon as that happened? Brandon Sanderson What the-- no, no, no. She spent months trying to get back out. Questioner 2 Oh, because she doesn't have the power to get back out. Brandon Sanderson Much harder to get back out. Questioner 1 *inaudible* trying to get back out, because she doesn't have any more Stormlight. Brandon Sanderson Yep. Much harder to get back out than it is to get back in even if you have Stormlight, and she is out of Stormlight, so... Footnote: Questioner mistakenly said "Cognitive Realm" in the first line.White Sand vol.1 release party (June 28, 2016) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted December 24, 2019 Report Share Posted December 24, 2019 6 hours ago, Pathfinder said: It's hard for everyone else to do that. What an interesting statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchcry Posted December 24, 2019 Report Share Posted December 24, 2019 3 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said: What an interesting statement. Yeah makes you wonder if that means that everyone else technically can, but with greater difficulty... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted December 24, 2019 Report Share Posted December 24, 2019 16 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said: What an interesting statement. 13 hours ago, Watchcry said: Yeah makes you wonder if that means that everyone else technically can, but with greater difficulty... (including Watchcry for the portion discussing about everyone technically can, but the rest of my response about dropping the subject is solely towards Ookla the Prolific) I believe what he is saying is anyone can go to a shardpool, which is a perpendicularity and transfer to the cognitive realm, but elsecallers have a specific power that enables them to do so. (this ends the portion for both Watchcry and Ookla) (Now for the portion only for Ookla the Prolific) Honestly at this point if someone in the book saying they once thought Shallan could do it, but now know she cannot is not enough, then nothing will be. I think based on the information we have it is clear that Lightweavers can only peer into the cognitive realm, Willshapers can only transfer fully into the cognitive realm, and Elsecallers can do both. At the end of the day from what you wrote, there is nothing that can be shown that would convince you of such. Even if we never see Shallan transfer fully of her own power through all 10 novels, you can still say "well we just have not seen her do it on screen". So I wish you luck with your theory. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted December 25, 2019 Report Share Posted December 25, 2019 6 hours ago, Pathfinder said: . At the end of the day from what you wrote, there is nothing that can be shown that would convince you of such. Even if we never see Shallan transfer fully of her own power through all 10 novels, you can still say "well we just have not seen her do it on screen". So I wish you luck with your theory. I assume that by the completion of all 10 novels we will actually know how each surge works and their full capabilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted December 25, 2019 Report Share Posted December 25, 2019 3 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said: I assume that by the completion of all 10 novels we will actually know how each surge works and their full capabilities. If that is the case for you, then I guess I will see you at the end of the amazing ride that will be the stormlight archive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted December 25, 2019 Report Share Posted December 25, 2019 1 minute ago, Pathfinder said: If that is the case for you, then I guess I will see you at the end of the amazing ride that will be the stormlight archive. See you there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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