Most Powerful Knight's Radiant Order?

[Moogle]

So random thought I just had. If fabrials mimic/replicate surges, then could the pain fabrial that Navani used on Adolin possibly be one of the surges we don't know about? That one of the orders perhaps desensitize or amply pain/sensation?

 

Skaa has posted theories on this, but I would say no. There's very big glaring differences between old-style fabrials (which use Surges and have replaceable gems with no trapped spren) and new-style fabrials (which trap spren inside a gemstone and likely don't use Surges). You can do almost anything with trapped spren, so long as there is a spren for what you want to do. If you want to make someone happy (like Rioting joy), just find a joyspren and stick it in the right gem and you can cause joy in people. No Surge that we know of can cause this.

[Pathfinder]

Skaa has posted theories on this, but I would say no. There's very big glaring differences between old-style fabrials (which use Surges and have replaceable gems with no trapped spren) and new-style fabrials (which trap spren inside a gemstone and likely don't use Surges). You can do almost anything with trapped spren, so long as there is a spren for what you want to do. If you want to make someone happy (like Rioting joy), just find a joyspren and stick it in the right gem and you can cause joy in people. No Surge that we know of can cause this.

Just so i can better classify them, what does the

 

fabral Navani uses to lift the rocks for the archers to fire at the parshendi constitute? It is a new fabral, but uses the windrunners/skybreakers surge gravitation. 

[Moogle]

Just so i can better classify them, what does the

 

fabral Navani uses to lift the rocks for the archers to fire at the parshendi constitute? It is a new fabral, but uses the windrunners/skybreakers surge gravitation. 

 

It's not using gravity, it's using counterweights. Here's the Ars Arcanum's description of the type of fabrial used:

 

PAIRING FABRIALS

Conjoiners: By infusing a ruby and using methodology that has not been revealed to me (though I have my suspicions), you can create a conjoined pair of gemstones. The process requires splitting the original ruby. The two halves will then create parallel reactions across a distance. Spanreeds are one of the most common forms of this type of fabrial. Conservation of force is maintained; for instance, if one is attached to a heavy stone, you will need the same strength to lift the conjoined fabrial that you would need to lift the stone itself. There appears to be some sort of process used during the creation of the fabrial that influences how far apart the two halves can go and still produce an effect.

Reversers: Using an amethyst instead of a ruby also creates conjoined halves of a gemstone, but these two work in creating opposite reactions . Raise one, and the other will be pressed downward, for instance. These fabrials have only just been discovered, and already the possibilities for exploitation are being conjectured. There appear to be some unexpected limitations to this form of fabrial, though I have not been able to discover what they are.

 

A reversal fabrial is used to lift Navani's platforms. They pre-lift a big boulder with a bunch of reverser fabrials on it, then drop it. This causes the other platform (that had the archers on it) to rise.

 

I don't know what spren type is used. Bondspren, possibly? Kaladin makes those show up when he uses Pressure.

[Pathfinder]

It's not using gravity, it's using counterweights. Here's the Ars Arcanum's description of the type of fabrial used:

 

PAIRING FABRIALS

Conjoiners: By infusing a ruby and using methodology that has not been revealed to me (though I have my suspicions), you can create a conjoined pair of gemstones. The process requires splitting the original ruby. The two halves will then create parallel reactions across a distance. Spanreeds are one of the most common forms of this type of fabrial. Conservation of force is maintained; for instance, if one is attached to a heavy stone, you will need the same strength to lift the conjoined fabrial that you would need to lift the stone itself. There appears to be some sort of process used during the creation of the fabrial that influences how far apart the two halves can go and still produce an effect.

Reversers: Using an amethyst instead of a ruby also creates conjoined halves of a gemstone, but these two work in creating opposite reactions . Raise one, and the other will be pressed downward, for instance. These fabrials have only just been discovered, and already the possibilities for exploitation are being conjectured. There appear to be some unexpected limitations to this form of fabrial, though I have not been able to discover what they are.

 

A reversal fabrial is used to lift Navani's platforms. They pre-lift a big boulder with a bunch of reverser fabrials on it, then drop it. This causes the other platform (that had the archers on it) to rise.

 

I don't know what spren type is used. Bondspren, possibly? Kaladin makes those show up when he uses Pressure.

Ah, gotcha! Thanks!

[KiManiak]

So I am going to assume in our little experiment that we are controlling for the number of members and squires in the respective Orders (as it seems most of the respondents have done) and any alliances between the Orders.  Also that we are not assuming any major usage limitations on the not-yet-shown surges (Division, Cohesion, Tension), while including the little we do know of the usage limitations of Soulcasting (takes a lot of stormlight to affect big things and/or Soulcast from a distance) and Teleportation (not sure of the precision or time involved).

 

Given all that, I have to pick Skybreaker.  The Gravitation surge alone is pretty powerful and can provide the Surgebinder maneuverability and speed that can not be matched by any other Surge (plus, you can fly!).  But couple that with the Surge of destruction and decay?  This allows for all types of "Death-From-Above" type possibilities and the only Order that can reach you has a secondary Surge that basically just sticks one object to another; not all that threatening when you can fly away from whatever they are trying to stick you to.

 

Gotta go with Skybreaker.

[Fatebreaker]

At first I'd say either Skybreakers or Dustbringers, simply because of the surge of destruction. While Windrunners would be close, they'd also have to deal with the moral quandary of killing their fellow Knights Radiant, whereas I think the Skybreakers would justify the slaughter as necessary according to the law or some such. However, in a real civil war it is unlikely that it would be every order for itself and as such alliances would be formed. While other orders might easily form "bonds" with others, Skybreakers are probably the most distrustful Order of the lot, and would most likely become isolated quickly.

 

That said, there is a new Skybreaker in town who wields a weapon of unparalleled destruction, so I'm gonna haf'ta stick with Skybreakers.

[TheWarriorPoet]

Theories everywhere but I think that each and every single KR no matter which group he belongs too will LOOSE THEIR POWER, because it will be in clear violation of their oaths and will break their bonds

[Voidus]

Theories everywhere but I think that each and every single KR no matter which group he belongs too will LOOSE THEIR POWER, because it will be in clear violation of their oaths and will break their bonds

Not necessarily, anyone bound to an Honorspren perhaps but what about being bound to a cryptic, I'm not sure it would even be possibly to break an oath with them because they'd just like the lie you told

[kari-no-sugata]

Not necessarily, anyone bound to an Honorspren perhaps but what about being bound to a cryptic, I'm not sure it would even be possibly to break an oath with them because they'd just like the lie you told

 

We actually get a clear example in WoR of it being possible:

Shallan burying her memories of various things upon her mother's death pretty much breaks her bond with Pattern. Not completely but he's closer to being dead than Syl was during the book.

 

Fun speculation: if she goes into denial over her love-life that could cause problems with Pattern in future

[maxal]

 

Fun speculation: if she goes into denial over her love-life that could cause problems with Pattern in future

 

I could see that happening... However, I would love for her to think her love life is a lie up until she realizes it was a truth all along.

[OdiYum]

I hear a lot of people saying the the Skybreakers are more powerful than the Windrunners because Windrunners have a less than desirable secondary surge.  Sure the surge of death and decay is pretty sweet sounding, but I feel that the Atmospheric Pressure surge is just as good.  

LIST!!!

- For starters, Atmospheric pressure could be used very strategically to halt an enemy charge

- Szeth used this surge as a ranged attack to stick several party goers and guards to the floor (meaning the advantage of division's ranged attack (not confirmed) is somewhat negated) from Way of Kings I-9 - Death Wears White

Quote “Another group came at Szeth from the side, and he drew Stormlight into his hand and flung it in a Full Lashing across the floor at their feet.”

 

Excerpt From: Brandon Sanderson. “The Way of Kings.” iBooks. https://itun.es/us/T6mBw.l

- The above shows that this lashing can be used from a distance, meaning that a Windrunner can immobilize a Skybreaker from a safe distance.

- Atmospheric Pressure acts as a "Spidey-sense"  allowing a Windrunner to fight INCREDIBLY well.

- While the Skybreaker is immobilized throwing death and decay at the Windrunner, they are healing all of the damage via stormlight.   The Windrunner, will close the gap and it will become a shardblade fight.  The Skybreaker is stuck to something while the Windrunner is free to fight AND they still have their "Spidey-sense."  The Skybreaker loses.

- Speculation: Atmospheric Pressure is one of the primary controlling forces of weather.  With enough stormlight and Windrunners, they could weaponize a highstorm.

 

I just personally feel that people do not give the Atmospheric Pressure surge enough credit.  We have not seen it utilized to it's fullest potential (in my opinion)

 

PS sorry if I necro'd this thread.  I don't know what the time frame for that is

[AerionBFII]

Personally i think they will even each other out in different areas but it will mostly depend on individuality and how strong the nahel bond is between each 'pair' 

[Who Sharded?]

I'm gonna say Bondsmiths are the most powerful per person since there are only three and they are bonded to special Spren.  I don't know how that's going to work with their Surges though.  We will see.

[Cstryon]

I didn't read the complete thread, so you are welcome to give me bridge duty and the appropriate brands. But my first thought was the skybreakers or dust bringers. Skybreakers because you've got a bunch of MPs with some gravity surges, who's going to do what they feel is right all the time... And if that means execution on the spot, they will. No mercy just justice. The dust bringers, because they seem to be the closest to doing evil hax unfair stuff without feeling they are in the wrong. With dust bringers I picture Asha'man meat grinding.

As for those, I don't know the numbers, but considering windrunner numbers with all their squires. They both might lose when the good guys show up to end the madness.

[cem]

 

I hear a lot of people saying the the Skybreakers are more powerful than the Windrunners because Windrunners have a less than desirable secondary surge.  Sure the surge of death and decay is pretty sweet sounding, but I feel that the Atmospheric Pressure surge is just as good.  

LIST!!!

- For starters, Atmospheric pressure could be used very strategically to halt an enemy charge

- Szeth used this surge as a ranged attack to stick several party goers and guards to the floor (meaning the advantage of division's ranged attack (not confirmed) is somewhat negated) from Way of Kings I-9 - Death Wears White

Quote “Another group came at Szeth from the side, and he drew Stormlight into his hand and flung it in a Full Lashing across the floor at their feet.”

 

Excerpt From: Brandon Sanderson. “The Way of Kings.” iBooks. https://itun.es/us/T6mBw.l

- The above shows that this lashing can be used from a distance, meaning that a Windrunner can immobilize a Skybreaker from a safe distance.

- Atmospheric Pressure acts as a "Spidey-sense"  allowing a Windrunner to fight INCREDIBLY well.

- While the Skybreaker is immobilized throwing death and decay at the Windrunner, they are healing all of the damage via stormlight.   The Windrunner, will close the gap and it will become a shardblade fight.  The Skybreaker is stuck to something while the Windrunner is free to fight AND they still have their "Spidey-sense."  The Skybreaker loses.

- Speculation: Atmospheric Pressure is one of the primary controlling forces of weather.  With enough stormlight and Windrunners, they could weaponize a highstorm.

 

I just personally feel that people do not give the Atmospheric Pressure surge enough credit.  We have not seen it utilized to it's fullest potential (in my opinion)

 

PS sorry if I necro'd this thread.  I don't know what the time frame for that is

 

It's still just magical super glue, man. True enough Full Lashing is effective against muggles, but I'm really skeptical if a Shardplate can be Full-Lashed (we need a better verb for this). So, it may have no effect whatsoever on a full-blown Skybreaker. Even if that's not the case, any fight between a Windrunner and a Skybreaker is as likely to be in the air as on the ground, where Full Lashing is not going to do jack since it needs a surface to work with.

 

We don't know exactly how Division Surge works, but there are hints in the books that it allows the Surgebinder to melt or burn stuff. Seems like a more useful power, and with wider possible uses.

 

Windrunner spidey-sense is sweet, sure, but all spren give their bondmates powers. We don't know what ability the highspren give, so it doesn't seem fair to make that comparison at this point. For all we know, it's even better than what honorspren give.

 

 

Though, I still believe Elsecallers are the most powerful order. "Most powerful" isn't the same thing as "who can kick most butt." I'll take the ability to create any object you want and fast travel over any of those fancy powers.

Edited August 23, 2014 by cem

[Nymeros]

Whoah, Windrunners won this poll? How? They really don't seem to be all that powerful. The lashings are useful for trapping and disorienting foes (flying is always useful of course) sure but it's not very destructive or personally harmful.

Szeth has an awesome showing but much of that seems to be because no one knows to deal with Surgebinding anymore.

Skybreakers are right behind though so that's good....Gravitation plus a non useless surge? Yes! Why walk the wind only when you can walk the wind and crack the sky too?

[StormWrath]

On 09/09/2017 at 5:01 PM, Nymeros said:

Whoah, Windrunners won this poll? How? They really don't seem to be all that powerful. The lashings are useful for trapping and disorienting foes (flying is always useful of course) sure but it's not very destructive or personally harmful.

Szeth has an awesome showing but much of that seems to be because no one knows to deal with Surgebinding anymore.

Skybreakers are right behind though so that's good....Gravitation plus a non useless surge? Yes! Why walk the wind only when you can walk the wind and crack the sky too?

I agree that Adhesion is mostly useless especially against Radiants. The Skybreakers have the signature surge of the Windrunners aka Gravitation but also have a far more destructive second surge than Windrunners', the surge of destruction and decay, they're not named skyBREAKERS for no reason.

Edited September 11, 2017 by StormWrath

[KevinTheHerdazian]

I think Skybreakers would win for obvious reasons already listed, but keep in mind that other orders have squires too. Remember in Dalinar's vision the Radiant in red plate had squires around her? "some of them started glowing". and Red is the color of a dustbringer. so not just windrunners have help. In fact I think windrunners are fairly outclassed by skybreakers, I think the two radiants the flew into the village in another of Dalinars vision were windrunners, they just seemed to fight with their shardblades, a skybreakers could make explosions. Lets see what division in, what is a Nuclear bomb? splitting an atom. I think dustbringers and Skybreakers do this as well but in a smaller scale. Full thundderclasts smoldering and smoking? please division is amazing combined with gravity. imagine each skybreaker as B-29's flying around and dropping tiny nukes

[Calderis]

4 minutes ago, KevinTheHerdazian said:

I think Skybreakers would win for obvious reasons already listed, but keep in mind that other orders have squires too. Remember in Dalinar's vision the Radiant in red plate had squires around her? "some of them started glowing". and Red is the color of a dustbringer. so not just windrunners have help. In fact I think windrunners are fairly outclassed by skybreakers, I think the two radiants the flew into the village in another of Dalinars vision were windrunners, they just seemed to fight with their shardblades, a skybreakers could make explosions. Lets see what division in, what is a Nuclear bomb? splitting an atom. I think dustbringers and Skybreakers do this as well but in a smaller scale. Full thundderclasts smoldering and smoking? please division is amazing combined with gravity. imagine each skybreaker as B-29's flying around and dropping tiny nukes

They can only sever molecular bonds. No atom splitting. Brandon said that's too strong. 

[KevinTheHerdazian]

Oh, well that's unfortunate. I was hoping for massive explosions. Thanks for the information though

[Calderis]

4 minutes ago, KevinTheHerdazian said:

Oh, well that's unfortunate. I was hoping for massive explosions. Thanks for the information though

You'll still get those. At least from the Dustbringers. 

When you split the molecular bonds of things down to their component elements, and combine that with heat produced through increased friction via abrasion, there's plenty to go boom. 

[KevinTheHerdazian]

Well what's your opinion? I'm still convinced the Skybreakers are the most powerful.

[Worldhopper]

Yeah definitely going with Skybreakers, at least with the information we have to go on so far. Although I'm really excited to see what the Dustbringers can . . . bring.

[Steeldancer]

3 hours ago, Worldhopper said:

Yeah definitely going with Skybreakers, at least with the information we have to go on so far. Although I'm really excited to see what the Dustbringers can . . . bring.

I would pit a dustbringer against a skybreaker. One can fly, one is fast and untouchable. 

[Nathrangking]

Dustbringer hands down