What is your Wildest Cosmere Theory??

[Frustration]

3 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

Welcome to the "Baby is Odium's Champion Theory" club! It's not a fun place, but at least we have Death Rattles to back us up!

Death Rattle, just one.

[NameIess]

On 5/20/2020 at 0:45 PM, teknopathetic said:

That's my second horrifying theory: Odium will appoint a baby as his champion, causing Dalinar to forfeit. Danilar (or someone) won't be able to cut its throat despite everyone wanting him to, and despite doing so letting the planet survive. 

Dalinar would totally kill a baby to save the world. He's done much worse.

[Use the Falchion]

43 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Dalinar would totally kill a baby to save the world.

Hard disagree. Past Dalinar arguably would have, depending on how high on the Thrill he was. But, Dalinar didn't kill Tanalan Jr. when the latter was a kid. And when they met as adults, he offered Tanalan Jr. a chance to live. Gavilar and Mr. T on the other hand...

46 minutes ago, Nameless said:

He's done much worse.

He has, but now he's actively trying to be better. If he was the same man as before, he may have genuinely considered Jasnah's genocide plan. Instead, he looked for alternatives, and continued to do so. He's NOT the same man, even if he bears the same crimes. 

 

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

Death Rattle, just one.

Potentially two:

Quote

“I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw. ”

—Collected on Shashanan 1173, 23 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a darkeyed youth of sixteen years. Sample is of particular note.

 

Quote

“So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life... ”

—Observed circa Ishi 1173 by Taravangian. Subject was King Valam of Jah Keved.

This one is quoted as a Death Rattle on the Coppermind, so I'm inclined to count it. And this sounds like someone saying that the Good Guys will lose because they choose to honor life over death. In what scenario could that be readily applicable?

[NameIess]

4 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

Hard disagree. Past Dalinar arguably would have, depending on how high on the Thrill he was. But, Dalinar didn't kill Tanalan Jr. when the latter was a kid. And when they met as adults, he offered Tanalan Jr. a chance to live. Gavilar and Mr. T on the other hand...

Dalinar will do what he has to. He didn't kill the Tanalan Jr. because he didn't have to, and he didn't have to destroy the entire city, plus Evi asked him to spare them.

6 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

He has, but now he's actively trying to be better. If he was the same man as before, he may have genuinely considered Jasnah's genocide plan. Instead, he looked for alternatives, and continued to do so. He's NOT the same man, even if he bears the same crimes. 

No he's not, but do you honestly think that Dalinar would trade his entire world for one child? One child is different than an entire race. I'm not saying he's the same man, I'm saying that he can deal with the guilt and grief that comes from it.

[Use the Falchion]

38 minutes ago, Nameless said:

No he's not, but do you honestly think that Dalinar would trade his entire world for one child? One child is different than an entire race. I'm not saying he's the same man, I'm saying that he can deal with the guilt and grief that comes from it.

Yes, I think he would. I think Dalinar would because he understands what that choice is and what it means, and he understands more than ANYBODY in the Cosmere how one can make their own decisions and change. He's not going to kill a child because he isn't that person anymore. Taravangian wouldn't flinch at it, Jasnah could live with the guilt, and I'm sure Nale would do it in a heartbeat, but Dalinar wouldn't. Not anymore. The oaths may allow it, but Dalinar wouldn't allow himself to do it. 

Dalinar would rather save the world to the best of its ability, allow the child to grow, look for a way to save the world and the child, and then - and only then - he would fight Odium's Champion. Because Dalinar no longer goes into battles for the Thrill. With the Parshendi he wanted to sue for peace (until Venli got her way). With the newly revived Voidbringers he looked for a way to stop the flow without resorting to genocide or killing the Heralds again. With the other Rosharan countries, Dalinar went through GREAT efforts to assure them he wasn't going to take the easy way, the arguably efficient way, and simply conquer the world to unite them. No, Dalinar isn't The Blackthorn anymore, and he's showing it. 

40 minutes ago, Nameless said:

he didn't have to destroy the entire city, plus Evi asked him to spare them.

And he DID try to spare the Rathalas. He talked to Tanalan Jr. in order to show that he came up with an entire plan to spare the storming city. Dalinar was then ambushed, gave into the Thrill, and then destroyed the city. Did he do it? Absolutely. Would he do it all over again or if a similar situation came up? No, not only because he regrets his actions, but because he's changed. You don't have to forgive Dalinar, nor would I ever ask you to. You don't even have to like him. But don't paint him as something he's currently - not previously, CURRENTLY - not. 

[NameIess]

58 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

Dalinar would rather save the world to the best of its ability, allow the child to grow, look for a way to save the world and the child, and then - and only then - he would fight Odium's Champion. Because Dalinar no longer goes into battles for the Thrill. With the Parshendi he wanted to sue for peace (until Venli got her way). With the newly revived Voidbringers he looked for a way to stop the flow without resorting to genocide or killing the Heralds again. With the other Rosharan countries, Dalinar went through GREAT efforts to assure them he wasn't going to take the easy way, the arguably efficient way, and simply conquer the world to unite them. No, Dalinar isn't The Blackthorn anymore, and he's showing it. 

The scenario that came to my mind when I saw the theory was pretty simple: Odium has finally agreed to the contest of champions, and he has chosen a child as his champion. Dalinar can either kill the child and win the contest, saving Roshar and forcing Odium to retreat for a time, or refuse to kill the child and forfeit, freeing Odium and causing the death of Cultivation and most likely the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher, along with the destruction of Roshar. In that situation, he would kill the child. He would not savor doing it, and it would hurt him, but he would kill the child.

1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:

And he DID try to spare the Rathalas. He talked to Tanalan Jr. in order to show that he came up with an entire plan to spare the storming city. Dalinar was then ambushed, gave into the Thrill, and then destroyed the city. Did he do it? Absolutely. Would he do it all over again or if a similar situation came up? No, not only because he regrets his actions, but because he's changed. You don't have to forgive Dalinar, nor would I ever ask you to. You don't even have to like him. But don't paint him as something he's currently - not previously, CURRENTLY - not. 

I do like Dalinar, and I have forgiven him for what he did, and I acknowledge that he has changed. But ask yourself this: Is killing one child that different from what Dalinar has done, and has shown no hesitation at doing? When Jasnah brings up genocide, he doesn't dismiss it as an option. When he learns that the Parshmen are not heartless monsters bent on desruction, he tells Kaladin that he is going to negotiate. He does not refuse to commit genocide, he looks for other options. If he had no other option, he would take the one option that he had left, and kill all the Parshmen. We already have an example of what he would when he had no other options: When the Parshendi refused to surrender, he marched an army out to kill them all, to end the war by any means necessary. The Parshmen are little more than children, manipulated by the Fused and forced to fight. Dalinar would look for other options, try to figure out another way, but when he can't, or if he had no option other than to fight or forfeit, then he would kill the child. To do otherwise would be to condemn millions of men, women, and children to death.

[Use the Falchion]

9 minutes ago, Nameless said:

The scenario that came to my mind when I saw the theory was pretty simple: Odium has finally agreed to the contest of champions, and he has chosen a child as his champion. Dalinar can either kill the child and win the contest, saving Roshar and forcing Odium to retreat for a time, or refuse to kill the child and forfeit, freeing Odium and causing the death of Cultivation and most likely the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher, along with the destruction of Roshar. In that situation, he would kill the child. He would not savor doing it, and it would hurt him, but he would kill the child.

You're forgetting that Dalinar can accept the challenge and then refuse to fight until the child is grown. That is the route you're leaving out. It's the scenario that not only fits Dalinar's character, but also accommodates the time-skip that the series has. 

9 minutes ago, Nameless said:

We already have an example of what he would when he had no other options: When the Parshendi refused to surrender, he marched an army out to kill them all, to end the war by any means necessary. The Parshmen are little more than children, manipulated by the Fused and forced to fight. Dalinar would look for other options, try to figure out another way, but when he can't, or if he had no option other than to fight or forfeit, then he would kill the child. To do otherwise would be to condemn millions of men, women, and children to death.

But you're leaving out that Dalinar gave them that choice. Dalinar can and will indeed wipe out enemies, but he now gives them the choice. Dalinar will NOT kill a baby that has no choice. So no, he's not going to kill a baby. He's more likely to raise the child (or have it be raised by someone close to him, depending on who the child is), prepare them for the situation, try to find another way, and then decide what to do. Because that is who Dalinar is now. 

Edited May 22, 2020 by Use the Falchion

[NameIess]

9 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

You're forgetting that Dalinar can accept the challenge and then refuse to fight until the child is grown. That is the route you're leaving out. It's the scenario that not only fits Dalinar's character, but also accommodates the time-skip that the series has. 

Dalinar can accept the challenge, forcing Odium to fight, and then refuse to fight? Odium isn't likely to just leave such an obvious loophole in his plan.

11 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

But you're leaving out that Dalinar gave them that choice. Dalinar can and will indeed wipe out enemies, but he now gives them the choice. Dalinar will NOT kill a baby that has no choice. So no, he's not going to kill a baby. He's more likely to raise the child (or have it be raised by someone close to him, depending on who the child is), prepare them for the situation, try to find another way, and then decide what to do. Because that is who Dalinar is now. 

Odium won't let Dalinar raise the child. There is not a single chance that he would do so. Dalinar would look for a way around killing the child, but if it came down to killing a baby or letting Odium win, Dalinar would kill the child.

[Use the Falchion]

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Dalinar can accept the challenge, forcing Odium to fight, and then refuse to fight? Odium isn't likely to just leave such an obvious loophole in his plan.

Absolutely, if there's no time limit. To Odium, once the challenge is accepted, it's only a matter of time. Either Dalinar breaks his Oaths by killing an innocent child, shattering everything he built up; or Odium waits until the child is old enough to kill an aging Dalinar and he wins. Besides, Odium isn't omniscient - he didn't see Dalinar's Ascenion coming, nor can he predict Renarin.

3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Odium won't let Dalinar raise the child. There is not a single chance that he would do so. Dalinar would look for a way around killing the child, but if it came down to killing a baby or letting Odium win, Dalinar would kill the child.

Again, HARD disagree. The KR Oaths and the Death Rattles - assuming they're predicting this event - already told us the answer. 

 

Quote

“I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw. ”

—Collected on Shashanan 1173, 23 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a darkeyed youth of sixteen years. Sample is of particular note.

The person in this KNOWS what other people want them to do. Yet from the style of writing, there's an invisible "but." 

Quote

“So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life... ”

—Observed circa Ishi 1173 by Taravangian. Subject was King Valam of Jah Keved

This tells it all. The good guys will not compromise their values in order to win, "for the choice of honor is life." Life Before Death. They're not going to do that. Dalinar won't allow it, nor will he be the killer.

As for Odium not letting Dalinar raise the child, well, that depends on what child Odium chooses and how personal he wants to make this challenge. What if Navani is revealed to be pregnant and Odium chooses that child? What if it's Adolin and Shallan's child? Odium is willing to make the fight personal at times (not as much as Ruin, but still more than we give him credit for). Choosing a child that Odium is sure Dalinar wouldn't kill, well, that's just another level of insurance on Odium's part. 

Lastly, as a meta-note, I think The Rift is as dark as Sanderson is willing to go in his writing. Sanderson refers to a lot of things, and having a main character destroy a city is one thing, but seeing them on-screen kill a baby is another. 

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Use the Falchion said:

Absolutely, if there's no time limit. To Odium, once the challenge is accepted, it's only a matter of time. Either Dalinar breaks his Oaths by killing an innocent child, shattering everything he built up; or Odium waits until the child is old enough to kill an aging Dalinar and he wins. Besides, Odium isn't omniscient - he didn't see Dalinar's Ascenion coming, nor can he predict Renarin.

How would Dalinar force Odium to fight anyways? Perhaps something like they both agree to a time and place that the fight would be decided at? Odium tells Dalinar that he's ready to fight, and they negotiate out the terms of the battle, set the date, and after all the Radiants and everybody carefully look over the terms for loopholes, they get to the area ready to fight and see a child.

4 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

The person in this KNOWS what other people want them to do. Yet from the style of writing, there's an invisible "but." 

The "invisible but" is that it is a baby. That is "but" enough. The writer doesn't say whether they will kill the baby or not, merely that they are faced by an almost impossible choice.

7 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

This tells it all. The good guys will not compromise their values in order to win, "for the choice of honor is life." Life Before Death. They're not going to do that. Dalinar won't allow it, nor will he be the killer.

It could also be saying that the darkness will prevail because the Radiants are too split to kill all of the parshmen. It by no means has to refer to a specific decision.

9 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

As for Odium not letting Dalinar raise the child, well, that depends on what child Odium chooses and how personal he wants to make this challenge. What if Navani is revealed to be pregnant and Odium chooses that child? What if it's Adolin and Shallan's child? Odium is willing to make the fight personal at times (not as much as Ruin, but still more than we give him credit for). Choosing a child that Odium is sure Dalinar wouldn't kill, well, that's just another level of insurance on Odium's part. 

Odium cannot simply choose a champion without letting them have any choice in the matter. If that were the case, then Dalinar would be Odium's champion. The champion must agree to be a champion, and I highly doubt that any son or daughter of the Kholin family would ever do so.

[Frustration]

8 minutes ago, Nameless said:

How would Dalinar force Odium to fight anyways? Perhaps something like they both agree to a time and place that the fight would be decided at? Odium tells Dalinar that he's ready to fight, and they negotiate out the terms of the battle, set the date, and after all the Radiants and everybody carefully look over the terms for loopholes, they get to the area ready to fight and see a child.

Thing is, the child can't kill Dalinar, so why would not killing the child be an Odium win?

[Use the Falchion]

3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

How would Dalinar force Odium to fight anyways?

Odium's plans are failing enough for him to pull a Hail Mary. He fails at converting Dalinar, his war isn't getting anywhere, the Listeners are switching sides and becoming Radiants, and his Desperate Mission in RoW ultimately fails. So by Book 5, Odium is left with very few options. So what does he do? He plays the last card available, a contest of Champions. 

3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Perhaps something like they both agree to a time and place that the fight would be decided at? Odium tells Dalinar that he's ready to fight, and they negotiate out the terms of the battle, set the date, and after all the Radiants and everybody carefully look over the terms for loopholes, they get to the area ready to fight and see a child.

And then the Radiants kill Rayse, the holder of the shard (since he's not guaranteed to survive as per WOB) and make sure the new Odium allows the child to grow up, prolonging the conflict but not solving it. 

 

5 minutes ago, Nameless said:

It could also be saying that the darkness will prevail because the Radiants are too split to kill all of the parshmen. It by no means has to refer to a specific decision.

You are very right it could! I'm just using it to fit a theory, but since we have no evidence either way, it could be used either way. Feel free to use it how you want, but that won't take away from me using it how I want so long as the context fits either. 

 

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Odium cannot simply choose a champion without letting them have any choice in the matter. If that were the case, then Dalinar would be Odium's champion. The champion must agree to be a champion, and I highly doubt that any son or daughter of the Kholin family would ever do so.

Dalinar was Odium's original pick, but Dalinar refused it. For a baby, I can't imagine it being that difficult to make it "choose" Odium. Take away its discomfort or distress. 

 

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Thing is, the child can't kill Dalinar, so why would not killing the child be an Odium win?

I think it's more of an "you can't win, so I technically dor" situation. The child can't kill Dalinar, but Dalinar won't kill the child. So if it's a fight to death and Dalinar refuses to kill the child, wouldn't that make Odium the winner by default? That's the sort of victory I imagine Odium resorting to. 

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

I think it's more of an "you can't win, so I technically dor" situation. The child can't kill Dalinar, but Dalinar won't kill the child. So if it's a fight to death and Dalinar refuses to kill the child, wouldn't that make Odium the winner by default? That's the sort of victory I imagine Odium resorting to. 

Baby can't kill Dalinar/whoever ends up Radiant champ, and on the off chance that the Radiant champion does kill them, then Odium losses, hands down, so he'd be dumb to pick one in the first place.

Secondly if no one wins everyone loses, Odium can't make Dalinar free him for that.

[NameIess]

18 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

Odium's plans are failing enough for him to pull a Hail Mary. He fails at converting Dalinar, his war isn't getting anywhere, the Listeners are switching sides and becoming Radiants, and his Desperate Mission in RoW ultimately fails. So by Book 5, Odium is left with very few options. So what does he do? He plays the last card available, a contest of Champions. 

At that point, it would be better for Dalinar to refuse.

19 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

And then the Radiants kill Rayse, the holder of the shard (since he's not guaranteed to survive as per WOB) and make sure the new Odium allows the child to grow up, prolonging the conflict but not solving it. 

And how would the Radiants kill Rayse? Nightblood?

20 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

Dalinar was Odium's original pick, but Dalinar refused it. For a baby, I can't imagine it being that difficult to make it "choose" Odium. Take away its discomfort or distress. 

Odium can't make a pact with someone that doesn't understand what they are agreeing to.

[Use the Falchion]

42 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Baby can't kill Dalinar/whoever ends up Radiant champ, and on the off chance that the Radiant champion does kill them, then Odium losses, hands down, so he'd be dumb to pick one in the first place.

Who is going to kill the child? Out of the Radiants, only two would - Jasnah and Szeth, and Szeth wouldn't do it if Dalinar told him not to. Shallan, Dalinar, Kaladin, Rock, and ESPECIALLY Lift would all rather sacrifice themselves than kill an innocent child willingly. Renarin is a big maybe, but I'd doubt he'd do it. 

27 minutes ago, Nameless said:

At that point, it would be better for Dalinar to refuse.

It's too set up, both in the story and by Honor. Dalinar's going to go into that contest to rid Roshar of Odium once and for all. And he's going to lose. Heck, if we take what happened in Oathbringer, the contest has already begun; it's just that neither side has chosen a Champion, so it's still in a state of flux. Neither Odium nor Dalinar can back out now. 

27 minutes ago, Nameless said:

And how would the Radiants kill Rayse? Nightblood?

Nightblood may be a viable option. I'm honestly not sure of the specifics because that isn't my forte. I do think it's likely, however. 

27 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Odium can't make a pact with someone that doesn't understand what they are agreeing to.

I do have a theory around that, but even then that theory would be stretching it. So I'll concede this point, but I still think Odium's Champion will be a baby, and one closely affiliated with - if not related to - the Kholin family. 

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Use the Falchion said:

Who is going to kill the child? Out of the Radiants, only two would - Jasnah and Szeth, and Szeth wouldn't do it if Dalinar told him not to. Shallan, Dalinar, Kaladin, Rock, and ESPECIALLY Lift would all rather sacrifice themselves than kill an innocent child willingly. Renarin is a big maybe, but I'd doubt he'd do it. 

WE know that, but Odium doesn't, and riding off Dalinar breaking Odium's faith in his own foresight, I doubt he would do it, and if he did it would just be a stalemate.

[Use the Falchion]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

WE know that, but Odium doesn't, and riding off Dalinar breaking Odium's faith in his own foresight, I doubt he would do it, and if he did it would just be a stalemate.

But even then Odium can't back out. He already agreed to the contest right before the climax of Oathbringer. So now Odium is stuck in a contest he may lose, what does he do? Does he choose a fighter that isn't as skilled as Adolin, Kaladin, Szeth (who is EXTRA scary with Nightblood) or Dalinar, isn't as logical as Jasnah, or isn't as creative as Shallan, isn't as much of a random card as Renarin? Or does he pick something that they can't fight? Innocence and potentially family, and then exploit the weakness of their Oaths?

[Frustration]

14 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

But even then Odium can't back out. He already agreed to the contest right before the climax of Oathbringer. So now Odium is stuck in a contest he may lose, what does he do? Does he choose a fighter that isn't as skilled as Adolin, Kaladin, Szeth (who is EXTRA scary with Nightblood) or Dalinar, isn't as logical as Jasnah, or isn't as creative as Shallan, isn't as much of a random card as Renarin? Or does he pick something that they can't fight? Innocence and potentially family, and then exploit the weakness of their Oaths?

And then what? He can't win that way.

[AceGambit]

On 20/05/2020 at 0:14 AM, Eugenides said:

I can't do that, but I can provide an alternative. The oathpact is coming back. When the first oathpact was formed, Honor essentially took ten super powerful Radiants and made them the pillars of the prison that Odium was contained in. What do we have in the Stormlight books? Ten Super powerful and honorable Radiants

I’m pretty sure the radiants came after. The spren imitated the bonds honour used to create the heralds. But it wasn’t enough, they needed the power of cultivation too. With a spren you need to honour a bond and cultivate that bond (swearing additional ideals as it’s cultivated)

[AceGambit]

7 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

But even then Odium can't back out. He already agreed to the contest right before the climax of Oathbringer. So now Odium is stuck in a contest he may lose, what does he do? Does he choose a fighter that isn't as skilled as Adolin, Kaladin, Szeth (who is EXTRA scary with Nightblood) or Dalinar, isn't as logical as Jasnah, or isn't as creative as Shallan, isn't as much of a random card as Renarin? Or does he pick something that they can't fight? Innocence and potentially family, and then exploit the weakness of their Oaths?

Odium is trapped in a similar way to ruin. Not in a perpendicularity but by making an oath with honour, while ruin was put in a permanent state of preservation! Odium can leave the Roshar system until he is released from his oath. 

[AceGambit]

The Bands of Morning were created by Marsh

[GoWibble]

Rlain is a sleepless: parshmen / Parshendi are easier for the sleepless to imitate, and the Sleepless keep an eye on Kaladin. The tattoos could be inked across a bunch of hordlings initially and then, depending on how small the hordlings can get, the tattoo is just hordlings at the end of WoR. If the Sleepless are like Kandra, they will completely immerse themselves in the imitation, which could be why Rlain is thinking about himself as a Parshendi. Either that, or he is an insane Sleepless...

So Rlain is a (possibly crazy) Sleepless

[GoWibble]

And 1 more:

The apothecary from tWoK, he had Nightblood at some point:

Quote

"Young bridgeman?" the apothecary inquired. "Is it a charm against evil you desire?" (Chapter 17 featuring the apothecary and Kal)

 

[TheOneKEA]

Ati and Leras practiced their joint acts of creation on another Shardworld prior to their arrival in the Scadrian system. This joint creation was the Aethers.

Allomancers can’t see the Cognitive Realm at all, and need another form of magic to do so.

Maya will be the first spren to swear an Oath, and form a Nahel Bond with Adolin, using his Investiture to heal herself and become aware again.

Ishar is xenophobic, and because of this, his changes to the Nahel Bond made it one-way, preventing the spren from swearing Oaths.

At the time of their Investiture, all sixteen Shards were equally capable of becoming incarnate in the Physical Realm.

[aneonfoxtribute]

Another that I've thought of for a while is that our main ten will take over for the Heralds and make a new Oathpact and that will cause the timeskip, though in the case of Taln and Ash obviously they would just be keeping their roles