More than Sixteen

[Honorless]

So, there was this WoB:

(spoilered for length)

Spoiler

ReadAndFindOut

In 2014, Brandon said First of the Sun - the planet in Sixth of the Dusk - is a minor Shardworld, in that it does not have a Shard present (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/103-salt-lake-city-comic-con-2014/#e1010). However, we've now gotten a WoB saying that Patji - the Father island - IS a Shard (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8606). Patji was a Shard, but isn't during SotD? Or did we finally get confirmation on that elusive "Survival Shard"? What do you guys think?

Brandon Sanderson

I stand by them. Though, as always, quotes and WoBs at signings aren't always as deliberately thought out as I'd like them to be. Answering questions on the fly can be challenging, and my phrasing can be bad in retrospect.

But no Shard was in residence on First of the Sun during the events of that story. The Investiture on that planet is residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium. Everything happening there could happen with or without a Shard present. Indeed, I would say that no Shard was ever "in residence" on First of the Sun.

The being called Patji still exists, and is a Shard of Adonalsium. Shards in the past have been interested in First of the Sun, and have meddled in small ways there. (Like they have on a lot of Shardworlds.)

Note that I might have been a little misleading in the first quote by bringing up Threnody, which is a real corner case in the cosmere because of uncommon events there.

That said, I'm sure that every story I write about a planet will bring up the quirks and unusual interactions of the magic there, because that's kind of what I do. (First of the Sun has its own oddities, as mentioned in Arcanum Unbounded.) Every planet is likely to end up as a corner case in some way, just like every person is distinctive in their own way, and never fully fits expectations.

I still consider one of the major dividing lines between "major" and "minor" Shardworlds (other than Shard residence) to be in strength of access to the magic, and control over it. I intend the minor Shardworlds to involve interactions with the magic as setting--coming back to spren, you could have a minor Shardworld with people who use, befriend, even bond spren. (Or the local equivalent--Seon, Aviar, etc.) But you'd never see power on the level of the city of Elantris, the actions of a Bondsmith, or even the broad power suite of a Mistborn.

But, as ever, the cosmere is a work in progress. The needs of telling a great story trump things I've said about what I'm planning. (I do try as much as I can to avoid having two texts contradict one another. And when they do, that's often a lapse on my part.)

Oversleep

Wait.

I'm confused.

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?

Cause the question was a follow up (on this) where you revealed that all Investiture in Cosmere got assigned to a Shard even if it wasn't part of a Shard.

And then you said that the one on First of the Sun is directly associated with one of the Shards (and since later you revealed Patji to be an avatar of Autonomy (also, what are avatars and how do they work?)) we took it to mean that at one point Autonomy Invested in First of the Sun.

But now you're saying it didn't?

If there was no Shard ever on First of the Sun but Patji is a Shard/avatar of a Shard then where is Patji, actually?

Could you please clarify all that?

Brandon Sanderson

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?"

The reason I have so much trouble answering these questions (and you'll see me struggling to get an answer in the 10-15 seconds I have when someone asks me in a signing line) is because this isn't an either or. Is this computer I'm using matter associated with Earth, the Big Bang, or such-and-such star that went supernova long ago? Well, it's probably all three.

When people ask, "What Shard is this Investiture associated with" it gets very complicated. Shards influence and tweak certain Investiture, giving it a kind of spin or magnetism, but all Investiture ever predates the Shattering--and in the cosmere matter, energy, and Investiture are one thing.

I always imagine Investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a Shard--because it's always been associated with that Shard. To Investiture, Adonalsium's Shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time.

We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have.

Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a Shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists.

You can see why I have such troubles explaining these things at signings--and why I fail when I try to, considering the time limitations and (often) fatigue limitations placed upon me. These are concepts I intend to spend entire, lengthy epic volumes explaining and exploring.

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of mater and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

And...I'm already into WAY more than I want to be typing this out right now. If it's confusing, it's because it's practically impossible for me to explain these things in a short span of time.

I'm going to leave it here, understanding that no, I haven't fully explained your question. (I didn't even get into what avatars are, what Patji was, and what happened to Patji the being--and how that relates to Patji the island.) But hopefully this kind of starts to point the right direction, though I probably should have just left this question alone because I bet this post is going to raise more questions than it answers...

Overlord Jebus

You've confused things so much now. We thought we had a pretty good grasp of this whole Patji situation (Autonomy visited the planet at some point, got themselves all Invested and created an avatar which is called Patji by the locals).

Now you're saying no Shard has ever visited there? And that the pool would have existed if no Shard had ever interfered? But that Patji still exists and is a Shard?

Does that mean Autonomy edited First of the Sun from afar without actually going there? And that the pool would have already existed without any intervention? Does this mean it was associated with Autonomy from the beginning? I'm really confused now.

Brandon Sanderson

I don't believe I said no Shard had visited. I said no Shard was there during the events of the story.

Investiture on First of the Sun predates any Shards fiddling with it.

Shards have fiddled with it by the time of the story.

I think fandom might be going down too far a rabbit hole on this one.

Chaos

Are you saying here that Patji is an avatar of Autonomy, or is it a separate Shard and not an avatar of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

When I said Patji was a Shard, I was meaning Automony--but it is not quite that simple.

Take this post to mean "no, you should not be looking toward another Shard for Patji's origins. Autonomy is the one relevant." But Autonomy's relationships with entities like this (not sure entity is the right word, even) is complex. I'm not trying to confuse the issue, though.

General Reddit 2018 (March 18, 2018)

That states that the way Autonomy's Avatars work has to do with the fact that she is a Shard of Adonalsium.

All the Shards were once one as Adonalsium, meaning that all the Shardworlds that he created have Intents of all the Shards combined that their Shardholders haven't accessed due to their mind's limitations. This is the difference between a Splinter and an Avatar. A Splinter is a shaved off portion of the Shard, whereas an Avatar is Investiture from Adonalsium that has the same Intent as the Shard

My theory is that: couldn't someone take up enough of a mixture of different Intents to create a new Shard? Brandon does consider Harmony to be a single Shard and said that if Harmony died, he'd leave behind the Shard of Harmony, not Shards of Preservation and Ruin and it would take effort to separate them again. He has also said that Harmony could be separated into two different Shards. Furthermore, he has said that if the original Vessels were different there could have been different Shards, as well as that if the number of Shards was due to the number of original Vessels.

The WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

Kiiyashi

If Rashek had been in a position to claim Preservation and Ruin simultaneously, as Sazed did, would he have been able to to Ascend to Harmony, another combination of the two Shards, or just one?

Brandon Sanderson

All three are possible.

General Signed Books 2017 (Jan. 13, 2017)

Quote

Thanatos17901

If Sazed were to die, would he drop the Shards Ruin and Preservation, or would he drop the Shard Harmony?

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. The shards are now intermingled, and would take effort to split apart. He would drop Harmony. (This is what Odium feared would happen, by the way.)

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 23, 2013)

Quote

CosmereQuestioner

Like Adonalsium, could Harmony split into 2 shards OTHER THAN Ruin/Preservation with the right intent.

You once stated that it is plausible that with a different intent Adonalsium could have shattered into a DIFFERENT 16 shards. You have also said that Harmony is one shard (or could be viewed this way.) My question: Could Harmony split/be split into 2 shards OTHER THAN Ruin/Preservation (yet still complementing/opposite) with the right intent of the splitter?  And if not is this because Harmony is still too invested in Scadrial as Ruin/Preservation?

Brandon Sanderson

Almost anything is possible... but it is very, very unlikely that Harmony would split except back to Ruin/Preservation.

General Signed Books 2017 (March 7, 2017)

Quote

Paladin Brewer

Was it necessary that Adonalsium split into sixteen Shards, or was it happenstance?

Brandon Sanderson

I will RAFO that one.

Paladin Brewer

Would the number or intents have been different, if there were more or less people?

Brandon Sanderson

That's all wrapped up in that RAFO. Let's say it's conceivable that the split could have happened in different ways.

Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017)

Quote

unknown

Is it possible to make an artificial shard? And not in an easy manner but if one had the resources and time could they make one?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm not sure what an artificial shard would be. You'd be using the power from Adonalsium to do it--so it wouldn't be 'artificial,' by cosmere terms. You'd just be collecting power. The question becomes if you gather enough of it, would it combine back together--which is a RAFO in the world. Nobody knows.

/r/fantasy AMA 2017 (May 1, 2017)

Quote

James Furr

If, instead of the 16, there had been 20 members at the Shattering of Adonalsium (with the same level of involvedness)...could it have Shattered into 20 pieces?

Brandon Sanderson

It's quite possible that a different number could have ended up working.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 5, 2018)

Quote

Karthikeyan Eswaran

For a person to ascend as a [Vessel], is it enough to have a Connection with the Shard, or does their general intent/mindset have to align with the Intent of the Shard (like Rayse and Odium have both shown similar mindsets)? If the intent needs to be similar, how did Ati, who was described as a kind person, pick up a Shard like Ruin? And if the intent doesn't need to be similar, how did the people at the Shattering manage to ascend, as the Shards had just been created? Did they have to go through some process to create a Connection? Or did they all somehow already have a Connection with Adonalsium (and thus with all the Shards) which made it easier to Ascend?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there did need to be some Connection created--there was a lot going on with this. But it is possible for intents to not align and someone to take a Shard. It's way easier if intents do align, but humans don't tend to align 100% to any specific intent.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 5, 2018)

Quote

Eric

If Adonalsium Shattered with intent, would he always Shatter with the same Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

It is plausible that it could've gone a different way.

Eric

So it could've been different Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that's plausible.

Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014)

 

We also have multiple WoBs confirming that Splinters can be put back together to reform a Shard, as well as that all the Shards can be put back together (but RAFO'd whether that would reform Adonalsium himself)

Would someone be able to have the same Intent as a pre-existing Shard? I don't think so as the Investiture should be keyed to the original Shareholder but what if the new Shareholder interprets the Intent differently?

[Weltall]

There are still sixteen Shards, two of them just happen to be held by a single Vessel and four (that we know of) by no Vessel at all.

Quote

Questioner

If Sazed got bored one day, could he split the two Shards he has?

Brandon Sanderson

Read And Find Out.

Questioner

So for right now, there are fifteen Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Right now, there are sixteen Shards, but fifteen Vessels. Well, not even that, 'cause, you know.

Skyward San Diego signing (Nov. 7, 2018)

I think you're reading way too much into that discussion of Avatars as being 'Adonalsium's Investiture'. Literally all Investiture in the Cosmere is Adonalsium's originally. You might be overlooking part of that WoB where Brandon describes how Investiture has a sort of 'spin' which led it to getting assigned to one Shard or another at the Shattering. It's the same reason that so much of Roshar was attuned to Honor and Cultivation even before they arrived, especially the latter.

As for taking up enough Investiture to become a new and separate Shard, Brandon has RAFO'd direct questions on this (which frequently are some variation of 'Is Hoid trying to do this?') but given how much Investiture a Shard represents (effectively infinite) and how all of it is linked to a Shard already even if they're not consciously aware of it, the mechanics necessary to actually absorb a sufficient amount of Investiture that's not actively claimed (scattered as it is around the Cosmere) would be staggering if it's even possible in the first place.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Weltall

[Calderis]

As @Weltall said, there are still 16 shards, and I don't currently see a way to change that (at least,nit in the timeframe were supposed to cover in the Cosmere story).

Sazed holds two Shards but is a Shard... 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Sazed is a Shard. Just like a king of two countries is still a king, a holder of two Shards is a Shard.

Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011)

Even though he is "Harmony" both intents still exist. They are the reason for his internal conflict that results in his near paralysis. In his own words... 

Quote

I am the least equipped, of all, to aid you in this endeavor. I am finding that the powers I hold are in such conflict that the most simple of actions can be difficult.

At the time of the Shattering, all Investiture was assigned to the Shards. So as you say, there are natural accumulations scattered throughout, and this is how Autonomy is making the Avatars. I do think that this can have extended consequences, for example I believe that the command used to create Nightblood tapped into kne of these pockets of Ruin and he is a mixed splinter of Ruin and Endowment, with no intentional role played by Ruin. 

But if a person were to gather these pieces up, and try to form them into a Shard, at worst the intents would conflict and prevent more being picked up, and at best they'd suffer from a similar issue as Harmony himself. 

[Honorless]

On 11/10/2019 at 1:15 AM, Calderis said:

At the time of the Shattering, all Investiture was assigned to the Shards. So as you say, there are natural accumulations scattered throughout, and this is how Autonomy is making the Avatars. I do think that this can have extended consequences, for example I believe that the command used to create Nightblood tapped into these pockets of Ruin and he is a mixed splinter of Ruin and Endowment, with no intentional role played by Ruin. 

But if a person were to gather these pieces up, and try to form them into a Shard, at worst the intents would conflict and prevent more being picked up, and at best they'd suffer from a similar issue as Harmony himself. 

I thought of Investiture as one thing, with Shardic Intent acting as a filter as to how it can affect the other Realms as well as the other Spiritual Attributes. I don't think what Nightblood is requires anything of Ruin, just some Realmatic mechanics that turned him into an Investiture sink. Hmm, that doesn't really hurdle your theory though, that would still make him of Ruin. I wonder what Endowment thought of him? How Cultivation and Odium think of him? And how Harmony might react to him? Do we have any scenes or WoBs of the former, aside from Nightwatcher offering Nightblood to Dalinar or Odium noticing Nightblood in Thaylenah?

Nightblood is Commanded to "Destroy Evil". He doesn't understand what the latter is, he does understand the former though...

I like this theory though (though I'd still not want Nightblood to visit Scadrial, that one newspaper clipping almost gave me a heart attack, seeing him in WoR was even more shocking)

What about the other option, collecting the Investiture affiliated with one Intent? Also could someone at least become a Sliver in this manner, I wonder?

Edit: the newspaper clipping I mentioned can be found in The New Ascendancy broadsheet "Do your metal tools speak to you?", right above the cartoon section

Edited November 19, 2019 by Honorless

[+Invocation]

12 minutes ago, Honorless said:

I don't think what Nightblood is requires anything of Ruin, just some Realmatic mechanics that turned him into an Investiture sink. Hmm, that doesn't really hurdle your theory though, that would still make him of Ruin.

We actually got confirmation a little while back that Nightblood does contain an abnormal amount of Ruin's Investiture.

[Honorless]

4 minutes ago, Invocation said:

We actually got confirmation a little while back that Nightblood does contain an abnormal amount of Ruin's Investiture.

Yup, I know

Quote

Walin

Does Nightblood contain any of Ruin's Investiture? Like, not atium, but...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, technically; and I'm not wiggling around that, because technically, location in the Cosmere and who belongs to what gets really weird, right? Because Ruin's Investiture is everywhere--but I'm not talking that way. I'm talking the way you actually mean it. 

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 

[Frustration]

I wonder if Patji is controlled by Autonomy or if the Shadaic intent has separated them?

[Honorless]

On 11/10/2019 at 2:05 AM, Booknerd said:

I wonder if Patji is controlled by Autonomy or if the Shardic intent has separated them?

They still have the same Shardic Intent and are confirmed not to be a hivemind.

Judging by the OB epigraph letter from Patji, the Avatars are not directly controlled, they seem to act autonomously from one another but also form one whole something and meddle with one another since Patji mentioned "we" and molding the guardian of Obrodai.

Controlling Patji might go against Autonomy's Intent and in Patji also mentions that they don't all hold the same views: "Perhaps if you had approached the correct one of us with your plea, it would have found favorable audience".

Different interpretations of Autonomy perhaps like the divine attributes of the Heralds and Radiant Orders.

Their overarching Shardic Intent should still remain the same, I think.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Honorless

[+Invocation]

2 hours ago, Honorless said:

Yup, I know

 

Alright, just making sure!

[Aon Tia]

On 11/10/2019 at 1:45 AM, Honorless said:

What about the other option, collecting the Investiture affiliated with one Intent? Also could someone at least become a Sliver in this manner, I wonder?

that is an interesting notion.. i do wonder if it is possible.. But how do you go on collected such investiture? Is the amount of investiture only relevant factor in making someone a Sliver or the amount of time spent immersed in the investiture also relevant? 

[Honorless]

26 minutes ago, The traveller said:

that is an interesting notion.. i do wonder if it is possible.. But how do you go on collected such investiture? Is the amount of investiture only relevant factor in making someone a Sliver or the amount of time spent immersed in the investiture also relevant? 

the amount of Investiture, which would "stretch your soul" is more important 

[Quantus]

On 11/9/2019 at 3:49 PM, Honorless said:

They still have the same Shardic Intent and are confirmed not to be a hivemind.

Judging by the OB epigraph letter from Patji, the Avatars are not directly controlled, they seem to act autonomously from one another but also form one whole something and meddle with one another since Patji mentioned "we" and molding the guardian of Obrodai.

Controlling Patji might go against Autonomy's Intent and in Patji also mentions that they don't all hold the same views: "Perhaps if you had approached the correct one of us with your plea, it would have found favorable audience".

Different interpretations of Autonomy perhaps like the divine attributes of the Heralds and Radiant Orders.

Their overarching Shardic Intent should still remain the same, I think.

Best theory Ive seen is based on the WOB about how Shards are infinite but the Human Minds are finite and can only hold/channel a finite amount of it.  In realmic terms that sounds like a single Cognitive entity as a Vessel can only channel a piece of the entire infinite Spiritual sum of the shard.   We also know that the Shards have connections and expressions of their Intent everywhere, it's just that they are typically not cognitively aware of other places. This leads to the idea that Autonomy is distributing that Cognitive Load to their different Avatars, so that Shard is being expressed through multiple finite Cognitive entities rather than the typical Single Vessel.  The thing I dont know is whether this would mean that the Avatars are collectively accessing more total Autonomy Investiture than a single shard would; in other words, Im' curious if two Autonomy Avatars were to team up and take on Scadrial, would they be less powerful than Harmony (not full Vessels), Equal (two Mind's worth of Channelling), or Stronger (Two minds worth of Shard channeling but without the opposing halves that Harmony balances).  

[Honorless]

53 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Best theory Ive seen is based on the WOB about how Shards are infinite but the Human Minds are finite and can only hold/channel a finite amount of it.  In realmic terms that sounds like a single Cognitive entity as a Vessel can only channel a piece of the entire infinite Spiritual sum of the shard.   We also know that the Shards have connections and expressions of their Intent everywhere, it's just that they are typically not cognitively aware of other places. This leads to the idea that Autonomy is distributing that Cognitive Load to their different Avatars, so that Shard is being expressed through multiple finite Cognitive entities rather than the typical Single Vessel.  The thing I dont know is whether this would mean that the Avatars are collectively accessing more total Autonomy Investiture than a single shard would; in other words, Im' curious if two Autonomy Avatars were to team up and take on Scadrial, would they be less powerful than Harmony (not full Vessels), Equal (two Mind's worth of Channelling), or Stronger (Two minds worth of Shard channeling but without the opposing halves that Harmony balances).  

Agreed, that's basically what this theory is built on.