spoilers thoughts on Aether of Night

[Realmatic Shadow]

On 18/06/2020 at 6:26 PM, beewall said:

Ferrous was also sorta unclear to me. Some can turn themselves into immortal machines, and others can.... do something? And some turn themselves into fancy pillars because why not give your life to become a pillar? I'm sorta confused. Not sure if Sanderson wants to get this dark, but a reveal that a lot of them weren't completely willing could explain it. Then again, we already had "it's legal to rape as long as you kill them after" in Mistborn, so I don't know if he cares too much about the world being dark....

On 18/06/2020 at 6:26 PM, beewall said:

I maaaaaay be a bit of a sucker for pure, non-sexual love scenes, like when they pretty much accidentally fell alseep cuddling. I'm glad that that scene didn't turn sexual like it would in some books. I like the cuteness.

Agreed on both these points, I am a big fan of the way Brandon avoids sexual scenes (Very much not a fan of them, though I can understand why some people enjoy them), it makes it much more fun to read his books.

On 18/06/2020 at 6:26 PM, beewall said:

Things felt too rushed after the fake defeat of the shadow people. Almost felt like a sequel stuffed into a couple chapters. It at the very least should've been a couple chapters longer.

I felt that the entire book could be split into two separate pieces, with the dividing line falling just after the first time the shadow people are defeated, with a big hook at the end being them rising again out of the pool. Given the extra space between then and the end of the book as it is, there could've been much more exposition on the world, and better foreshadowing of the outcome and the twist of the Vo-Dari working for the big-bad of the story. Moving events around like this also gives much more space for the political machinations in the first book to be explored, and more overall characterization to the bride offerings.

Edited October 20, 2020 by Realmatic Shadow
Corrected some word choices

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, Realmatic Shadow said:

with a big hook at the end being them rising again out of the pool

Tbh, I feel like this should probably just be removed. At least without some big changes (like making them only able to raise from the pool itself or something, and maybe make using them tiring), to remove some of the holes from the original version ("we hoped you'd give in" just didn't feel convincing to me).

But I agree that yeah, it should end around then and go on to a sequel. The marriage could be moved to a celebration of what they assumed was victory, to keep it in the same book. 

[Honorless]

On 1/14/2020 at 4:35 PM, Eternal Khol said:

I'm sure the it works different, but Sha and Lum are also in Final Empire Prime

APerson/somepunpkinyusername from Discord mentioned it:

Quote

Two forces bind the universe.  Sha is change through destruction; Lum is change through growth.  Lum feeds off of Sha; Sha feeds off of Lum.  And Nan is the balance between them.

 

Edited October 30, 2020 by Honorless

[Weltall]

Yeah, I suspect that like Amberite, those were ideas that Brandon liked and has been trying to find a place for. We know Amberite's been in four works and it at least looks the same in most of them (aside from Mythwalker) so Sha/Lum/Nan is probably the same thing.

That being said, his description in Final Empire Prime sounds a lot like he's describing Ruin, Cultivation and a different sort of Harmony, while we know that both Aether and FE Prime were cannibalized into the published Mistborn. Those concepts probably contributed to what became Preservation/Ruin/Harmony and he dropped the invented names. Something similar happened between Way of Kings Prime and the published version, with some names in the former that were invented being replaced with more conventional terms.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Weltall

[LewsTherinTelescope]

3 hours ago, Weltall said:

That being said, his description in Final Empire Prime sounds a lot like he's describing Ruin, Cultivation and a different sort of Harmony, while we know that both Aether and FE Prime were cannibalized into the published Mistborn. Those concepts probably contributed to what became Preservation/Ruin/Harmony and he dropped the invented names.

It makes me think of the alternate Well of Ascension ending, with the 4 mist spirits. We know one was Endowment, and the Sha/Lum/Nan trio makes me think Cultivation was one as well. (I'm guessing Autonomy for the final one, because of Trell, and because an Endowment/Autonomy conflict matches with Sazed's "Elendel is too much of a paradise to push progress" issue.)

I've thought of Sha, Lum, and Nan as (early versions of) Ruin, Cultivation, and Preservation, personally. The main thing that makes me question it: Sha and Lum in Aether are called

Quote

"that which is creation itself.... Powers that draw upon the essence of that which MAKES."

However, about Decay, the Former says:

Quote

"They turned to Decay, that enemy of all Formation, for a final power--power to destroy."

So Decay is a separate thing, and Sha and Lum seem to be halves of the Former's power, perhaps? I'm very curious about that. 

[Eternal Khol]

1 hour ago, beewall said:

I've thought of Sha, Lum, and Nan as (early versions of) Ruin, Cultivation, and Preservation, personally. The main thing that makes me question it: Sha and Lum in Aether are called

However, about Decay, the Former says:

So Decay is a separate thing, and Sha and Lum seem to be halves of the Former's power, perhaps? I'm very curious about that. 

Aether was written right before The two Primes, and brandon was experimenting with lots of concepts at the time, so Sha and Lum are bound to be different between the two. And the stuff from Final Empire Prime to be more current.

it seems Sha and Lum stared out as just 2 opposing forces in Aether that were part of the very fabric of the universe(Night and Illuminous were the “pure” forms that humans could use) 

Brandon has said that “Decay became Ruin”

then in Final Empire Prime, he made them 2 forces that kinda fed off each other (sha and lum) and have a balance between them seems to be essentially a new force(Lum) 

“Two forces bind the universe.  Sha is change through destruction; Lum is change through growth.  Lum feeds off of Sha; Sha feeds off of Lum.  And Nan is the balance between them.”

And theyre never mentioned in Mistborn prime.

 

 

Just some random Thoughts

i was just thinking, and it makes sense that The Twins(Sons of the Former) would Manipulate Order and Chaos or Sha and Lum as theyre also called(which seem to be two halves of the Formers power.)

but they shouldve also had power separate from Order and Chaos. 
The Former says that they didnt turn to and start to manipulate Order and Chaos until after they has already waged war on each other and had already created the Gol and Shentis Virus(which seem to have been done magically)

And the fact that the Former always referred to it as the Twins “manipulating” the power, suggest the power(Order and Chaos) was never really their’s to begin with and could also kinda explain how they could be trapped in them. They hadn’t been using them for that long

 

also after taking a really long break(like 3 months lol) ive picked the book back up with the Intent to really find as many Cosmere connections and transplants/Cannibalizations as possible. And one thing im really just now noticing, is that, Idea of Shards and how everything functioned isn’t actually that far off from what we have today. It would actually be relatively easy to tweak to the book to current Cosmere cannon. 
which im really hoping happens, just because i love the title “Slaughter and Despair, the Fell Twins” XD

Edited October 31, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[LewsTherinTelescope]

4 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

Aether was written right before The two Primes

Very pedantic correction, but it was actually written in-between the Primes. According to the essay, the chronology of his Dark Ages was: Books kept getting rejected, so he tried to write shorter with Mythwalker, which we know how that went. Mistborn Prime came next, trying to go basically the opposite of his normal style. Then he let himself write a bit more epic in scope and wrote Aether. Then he got his books rejected again and responded by writing the most clichéd fantasy he could with Final Empire Prime. (But Brandon himself has misremembered that order after the fact in most of his lists.) So perhaps this explains the lack of Sha and Lum in Mistborn Prime: he just didn't think of it yet. 

11 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

but they shouldve also had power separate from Order and Chaos. 
The Fomer says that they didnt turn to and start to manipulate Order and Chaos until after they has already waged war on each other and had already created the Gol and Shentis Virus(which im assuming was done magically)

Hmm, yeah, that's even weirder. 

Man, the Aether universe has so many recognizable modern Cosmere elements, but so much that is different. I'm very curious how the Cosmere worked at that time in its development. 

[Eternal Khol]

6 hours ago, beewall said:

Man, the Aether universe has so many recognizable modern Cosmere elements, but so much that is different. I'm very curious how the Cosmere worked at that time in its development. 

Me tooooo

Ive been rereading all of the unpublished works and finding WoBs and stuff and have been highlighting  anything relevant 

I want to try and eventually repiece what Brandon had planned for the “Cosmere” at that time, because its like all of these unpublished books, written in the very early 2000s, kinda create their own little Cosmere of its own.(Dragonsteel, Aether, the two Primes)

and maybe eventually do a post on here about all these unpublished works and how they would’ve connected at the time and the realmatics of it all or however it would’ve worked

brandon said that his plan for for Aether of Night Was for it to to set thousands of years after the events of Dragonsteel.

 

edit: i was just thinking how using Night to power your Amberite  is kinda like Compounding, in that you’re using one magical ability to power another. 
i wonder if brandon drew inspiration from it

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[Cocoa]

Just finished (at way too late an hour hehe) my copy last night, so I thought I'd get in on the fun.

The magic:

As others have noted, it's kind of a shame that we didn't learn more about the Bestarin and Ferrous aethers. Bestarin can heal by grafting on animal parts, Ferrous can turn into Corpates and communicate with the people inside Corpates, and that's it. We don't even know what the aethers look like. Though, one misconception that seems to happen when people talk about Corpates is thinking they're only the vehicles, when in-text it seems more that the people-turned-into-metal-pillars are Corpates, which are then used for buildings, vehicles, light, heating, etc.

Amberite and Verdant are pretty clear-cut. Proto-shardblade and plate for Amberite, spider-man for Verdant. I do think it's a shame we didn't get more exploration of the aethers being alive through D'Naa's Verdant, but maybe that's something that would have played a role in a hypothetical sequel.

I will say that, not accounting for any changes between prime aethers and canon aethers, I'm very much looking forward to the Sounthern Scadrians and Rosharans getting their hands on Ferrous aethers, since they've shown the most inclination towards using Investiture mechanically.

While everyone talks about Illuminous being a lot weaker than Night, I'm not entirely convinced. Even without the shadow projection, it's much more flexible when it comes to transporting things, and as we saw with the falling livestock and the betrayal of the Amberite and Bestarin refugees, Illuminous + gravity can be a pretty devastating weapon. I also wonder whether they have some sort of inverse of Night's projection ability, which could account for their being able to hear Despair in their dreams.

The peoples/worldbuilding:

I admittedly didn't terribly mind the planet-of-the-hats style kingdoms, and I disagree they were entirely flat, as well. Tarrinon was a fun supporting character, and I liked that Nahan actually got exploration and character development, when in a less well-handled story she could've very well been a one-dimensional seductress whose only purpose is to stir up drama between Raeth and D'Naa. I think part of my being fine with them might be me projecting other similar but more fleshed-out people from Brandon's later writing onto them, though. The Shorriken as Azish and a little Terris, the Khur and Kavir as counterparts of the Idrians in different ways, the Aedin as more noble Alethi, etc. I think I would've liked to see them more fleshed-out in hypothetical later aether books, but as-is, I don't mind them.

I think the one exception to that is the Shentis. Now, I want to very clearly preface this by saying that I don't hold this against Brandon at all, and I strongly dislike accusing authors of bigotry without evidence of malicious intent or beliefs because of superficial (and often coincidental) parallels between elements of a fantasy world and real-world stereotypes. That said, the realization that Shentis really are a minority group who spirit away (admittedly outcast) children and purposely infect them with a body-fluid-transmitted virus to make more of themselves was a rather uncomfortable one. Especially since you could have a distinct caste within Aedin society focused on providing a home for those without bloodlines without many of those elements.

I would've liked to see more of the Gol. Their story, of living weapons corrupted by an entirely different evil god to be appreciators of art, is an interesting one. I can picture them maybe joining the final battle against the Forgotten too, fighting against a foe that they need feel no empathy for to protect a culture that has created so many great works of art.

The ending:

As others have said, pretty much everything past the final proper battle with the Forgotten felt rushed. It didn't feel like the Vo-Dari were built up enough to make a satisfying big bad, which is kind of ironic considering Raeth himself was a Dari. I liked the "big bads were actually the quiet helpful people right under your nose the entire time" twist better in Warbreaker, perhaps because the Pahn Khal felt like they had more of a genuine horse in the race than "our god told us to commit a tripple-genocide to save the world."

I was honestly kind of surprised that Darro didn't bond a Bestarin aether after losing his arm. It felt like it would have been thematically fitting, challenging everybody's notions of how aethers work, creating a parallel between him and Raeth since they'd both be double-aether users for a time, and elevating the remaining Bestarins since the prince is now one of them.

Speaking of Bestarins, rip Taenen. Saw your death coming miles away but you were still cool.

I saw Darro and Nahan getting together at the end coming from a long ways away too, if not the exact method. I figured that either Raeth would reveal his ruse but be crowned emperor anyway, and would then pick Nahan for Darro, or would be convinced to maintain the ruse and then pick Nahan for Darro anyway as politicking, since even though he'd have revealed her as a liar he could probably protect her from stoning as an Aedin princess. I can see the argument that it would've been better to loop her in on Darro's scheme, though as he himself pointed out, 'hey, it's better than being stoned.'

The bit with Alean was both uncomfortable and unsatisfying. She had already basically date-raped Darro for information, and what wound up happening to her doesn't feel worse than what she herself did, but that doesn't really make it right. And so the way it's sort of played off as comedy or poetic justice just falls flat and even has the inverse effect. I think a more satisfying end would be if Laene's treasonous conspiracy with the 'shadow creature' (ineffective though it was, since the only thing I can think of he really accomplished was swinging the martial autonomy vote) were somehow exposed, thus destroying his and Alean's credibility. And then maybe at that point she would have overreacted and revealed her affair with Hern, which would see her labeled either a liar or as a cheater in the bridal offering competition, either way not someone to be trusted, and so that's how that plot thread could be resolved.

I was actually kind of disappointed that the Khur didn't secede from the empire. I feel like it would be the natural course of action for them after everything that happened, and could've been a good thematic moment for "doing your duty in important regardless of whether you succeed" and driving home that Raeth ultimately couldn't please everyone even if he did everything 'right.' It could've also been a bittersweet moment too, as the Khur secession could've spurred the other nations to reaffirm and strengthen their loyalty.

I did at least like the implication that the court is fully aware of how much crem is being slung around, they just don't care. They've got their emperor.

Random musings:

I'm not entirely opposed to the romance and war plotlines being set side-by-side on principle. I recognize that my opinions on this aren't universal, but I didn't especially dislike when Brandon did similar things with Shallan and Adolin in SA, Vin and Elend in Mistborn, and Siri and Susebron in Warbreaker. In this book the two definitely could have used polishing to work better together, but I didn't hate it.

Assuming AoN ever gets rewritten (and it would need a pretty hefty rewrite at this point, given all the elements that have been cannibalized for other Cosmere works) instead of just pulling the aethers themselves into canon, I feel like the Valor shard will be involved somehow. It just feels right for a story where a major element is doing your duty (even when it wasn't supposed to be your duty) in the face of impossible odds.

It's a small thing, but I do wonder whether Tea was a source of inspiration for AoL Steris. The two just strike me as very similar.

One thing I think the book did really well was the politicking from the Raeth-as-Hern angle. I liked how he managed to win over so many of Hern's enemies while at the same time trying to pull off the balancing act of acting enough like Hern not to arouse suspicion. I also liked how for all of his flaws, we do see that Hern had at least one redeeming quality: he fought alongside his men instead of just being an armchair general.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Cocoa

[+Oltux72]

On 4.1.2022 at 8:46 PM, Cocoa said:

As others have noted, it's kind of a shame that we didn't learn more about the Bestarin and Ferrous aethers. Bestarin can heal by grafting on animal parts, Ferrous can turn into Corpates and communicate with the people inside Corpates, and that's it. We don't even know what the aethers look like. Though, one misconception that seems to happen when people talk about Corpates is thinking they're only the vehicles, when in-text it seems more that the people-turned-into-metal-pillars are Corpates, which are then used for buildings, vehicles, light, heating, etc.

What makes people do that? I mean, the fundamental alternative is death, but if I can be a vehicle I ca at least go somewhere.

On 4.1.2022 at 8:46 PM, Cocoa said:

Amberite and Verdant are pretty clear-cut. Proto-shardblade and plate for Amberite, spider-man for Verdant.

No, that is its flashy use. The basic role of Verdant is proto-Soulcasting. Here as later on Roshar we find a way how you can have a preindustrial economy without 90% of the people toiling on the fields living a short and brutish life.

Secondly we have an immensely useful ability in hostile environment. Verdant basically answers the question how people travel in Shadesmar.

 

[Cocoa]

On 1/10/2022 at 1:42 AM, Oltux72 said:

No, that is its flashy use. The basic role of Verdant is proto-Soulcasting. Here as later on Roshar we find a way how you can have a preindustrial economy without 90% of the people toiling on the fields living a short and brutish life.

Secondly we have an immensely useful ability in hostile environment. Verdant basically answers the question how people travel in Shadesmar.

 

Ah, true enough.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 1/4/2022 at 1:46 PM, Cocoa said:

I think the one exception to that is the Shentis. Now, I want to very clearly preface this by saying that I don't hold this against Brandon at all, and I strongly dislike accusing authors of bigotry without evidence of malicious intent or beliefs because of superficial (and often coincidental) parallels between elements of a fantasy world and real-world stereotypes. That said, the realization that Shentis really are a minority group who spirit away (admittedly outcast) children and purposely infect them with a body-fluid-transmitted virus to make more of themselves was a rather uncomfortable one. Especially since you could have a distinct caste within Aedin society focused on providing a home for those without bloodlines without many of those elements.

Yeah. I imagine Brandon's intention was to play off those stereotypes and subvert them by making them good people doing it for a good reason, but definitely something to be very careful around.

On 1/4/2022 at 1:46 PM, Cocoa said:

While everyone talks about Illuminous being a lot weaker than Night, I'm not entirely convinced. Even without the shadow projection, it's much more flexible when it comes to transporting things, and as we saw with the falling livestock and the betrayal of the Amberite and Bestarin refugees, Illuminous + gravity can be a pretty devastating weapon. I also wonder whether they have some sort of inverse of Night's projection ability, which could account for their being able to hear Despair in their dreams.

I've wondered recently whether there's a proto-Intent thing going on. Maybe they can make projections, but the Chaotic intention behind why they are doing it causes Order's power to refuse to work for them and so they didn't figure it out, similarly to how when Kelsier tried to attack Ruin the power just... didn't listen.

On 1/4/2022 at 1:46 PM, Cocoa said:

I was honestly kind of surprised that Darro didn't bond a Bestarin aether after losing his arm. It felt like it would have been thematically fitting, challenging everybody's notions of how aethers work, creating a parallel between him and Raeth since they'd both be double-aether users for a time, and elevating the remaining Bestarins since the prince is now one of them.

Oh huh, that would've been cool.

On 1/4/2022 at 1:46 PM, Cocoa said:

Assuming AoN ever gets rewritten (and it would need a pretty hefty rewrite at this point, given all the elements that have been cannibalized for other Cosmere works) instead of just pulling the aethers themselves into canon, I feel like the Valor shard will be involved somehow. It just feels right for a story where a major element is doing your duty (even when it wasn't supposed to be your duty) in the face of impossible odds.

Hmm, I could see that.

On 1/4/2022 at 1:46 PM, Cocoa said:

I'm not entirely opposed to the romance and war plotlines being set side-by-side on principle. I recognize that my opinions on this aren't universal, but I didn't especially dislike when Brandon did similar things with Shallan and Adolin in SA, Vin and Elend in Mistborn, and Siri and Susebron in Warbreaker. In this book the two definitely could have used polishing to work better together, but I didn't hate it.

Same, I appreciated the contrast and was surprised how strongly Brandon seems to feel it's broken.