stormbourne

all the magics

11 posts in this topic

so from what we can see every time a shard fully settles on a planet they add there magics to that planet but when 2 settle on the same planet or neighboring they can allow their magics to mix creating a third magic meaning the total magics possible if all 16 where to settle on a single planet would be drum roll please.........65535 different magic systems this was calculated assuming that every shard allowed their magics to mix with every other shards effectively doubling the total magic systems for every shard added

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1 hour ago, stormbourne said:

65535 different magic systems

Lmao, that's a lot of magic.

 

I don't believe that it is that cut and dry mathematically though...

As an example, we have Sel: 2 Shard with potentially 100's of magic systems.

Also, Roshar: Technically it has around ~30 magic systems with two shards, a half-way invested 3rd shard, and past influence from Adonalsium (all 16 as one)

Meanwhile, Taldain only has 1 shard and has at least 2 separate magic systems.

 

You've definitely got one thing right though. All 16 shards investing on one planet and mixing their investiture would mean A LOT of magic... but what if they worked together to just make one magic system?

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52 minutes ago, Lunu’anaki said:

Lmao, that's a lot of magic.

 

I don't believe that it is that cut and dry mathematically though...

As an example, we have Sel: 2 Shard with potentially 100's of magic systems.

Also, Roshar: Technically it has around ~30 magic systems with two shards, a half-way invested 3rd shard, and past influence from Adonalsium (all 16 as one)

Meanwhile, Taldain only has 1 shard and has at least 2 separate magic systems.

 

You've definitely got one thing right though. All 16 shards investing on one planet and mixing their investiture would mean A LOT of magic... but what if they worked together to just make one magic system?

im not including invested creatures so Chiri-Chiri and chasm fiends do not count other then that roshar only seems to have 4 magics 1 of honour, 1 of cultivation, 1 of both, and 1 of odium

taladain only seems to have sand magic what's the other?

sel is a special case as it doesn't have shards it has multiple splinters of two shards causing the diversity of magic seen there

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1 minute ago, stormbourne said:

im not including invested creatures so Chiri-Chiri and chasm fiends do not count other then that roshar only seems to have 4 magics 1 of honour, 1 of cultivation, 1 of both, and 1 of odium

taladain only seems to have sand magic what's the other?

sel is a special case as it doesn't have shards it has multiple splinters of two shards causing the diversity of magic seen there

Well, when i say ~30 I'm considering each Surge a separate magic system. (I say that because Brandon himself referred to them that way) Either way though, If surgebinding is of Honor and Cultivation, arn't fabriels as well? They do something very different. And what is Honor's magic system then?

WoB's and Kriss's essays have confirmed that Darkside Taldain has it's own seperate magic system.

My point is that our only example of Shards limiting themselves to one magic without help from another shard is Mistborn and perhaps Warbreaker, while we have plenty examples of the opposite being the case. I think it's really up to the Shard how much magic they want to put into the place that they are investing.

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1 hour ago, Lunu’anaki said:

I don't believe that it is that cut and dry mathematically though...

I definitely don't either. I'll explain my reasoning in a moment. 

1 hour ago, Lunu’anaki said:

As an example, we have Sel: 2 Shard with potentially 100's of magic systems.

Which is misleading. It has one magic system. All of the regionalism is subsets of one system. Personally, I think that any of the systems would work anywhere, so long as you know the correct way to access them and have access to the Dor locally. 

1 hour ago, Lunu’anaki said:

Meanwhile, Taldain only has 1 shard and has at least 2 separate magic systems.

Again, still think it's one magic system.

I just think the way its accessed is different on either side of the planet. If it were separate systems, I find it weird that someone from Darkside would have a very strong ability with the ability tied to Dayside.

On to the meat of the argument. 

Personally, I think that Scadrial has mislead us here. Brandon's said that in similar circumstances, shards would develop magic systems in the same way as they did on Scadrial... But the other shards aren't in similar circumstances. 

A magic system develops because of an interaction between the Investiture put into it from the Shards, and the planet itself... And Ruin and Preservation created a blank slate. An entirely new planet with no previous input. So their planet, and the life on it, is purely of them. 

Roshar in contrast, was crafted wholesale by Adonalsium. Much of the systems that we see in nature existed before the Shards ever arrived. Brandon has consistently said that there have only ever been three shards on Roshar, and yet... 

Quote

Questioner

How many Shards have Invested their power on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Technically, all of them did.

SpoCon 2013 (July 10, 2013)

For a planet that exists, with a magic already in place what is going to happen is that they're going to expand upon what already exists.

Which fits what we see on Roshar. Brandon breaks Roshar down to 3 magic systems usually. (which fits his 10 or 30 quote). In his words, those three systems are Surgebinding, Voidbinding and Fabrials. If, as I think, the magical Focus for Roshar is the Surges themselves that means 10 Surges, with three systems that access them for 30 magic varieties. 

Break that down on Scadrial, and the numbers are drastically different... And you get a higher number of systems with fewer shards. 16 metals (excluding godmetals), 3 systems, for 48 variations. 

So, semantics on magic systems aside, I think there's the same number of magic systems in both words, and the circumstances of their creation is the reason for the difference... And for Feruchemy existing at all. 

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10 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Which is misleading. It has one magic system. All of the regionalism is subsets of one system. Personally, I think that any of the systems would work anywhere, so long as you know the correct way to access them and have access to the Dor locally. 

So, is your suggestion here that Forging and AonDor just require different symbols to access on different areas of Sel? If so, I agree with you 

But do you also think that Forging and AonDor are capable of doing the same things? Because that's where I would take issue. They are vastly different in what they do.

Just trying to understand. Like you said, it's mostly just a semantics issue which means we could describe them as 1000 "systems" or 1 "system" and be right both times, but on a fundemental level, if we're going to call AonDor and Forgery part of the same system, why is that different from combining Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemolurgy into one system by definition? Is there something intrinsic that separates the metallic arts but doesn't separate the Selish magics?

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5 hours ago, Calderis said:

I definitely don't either. I'll explain my reasoning in a moment. 

Which is misleading. It has one magic system. All of the regionalism is subsets of one system. Personally, I think that any of the systems would work anywhere, so long as you know the correct way to access them and have access to the Dor locally. 

Again, still think it's one magic system.

I just think the way its accessed is different on either side of the planet. If it were separate systems, I find it weird that someone from Darkside would have a very strong ability with the ability tied to Dayside.

On to the meat of the argument. 

Personally, I think that Scadrial has mislead us here. Brandon's said that in similar circumstances, shards would develop magic systems in the same way as they did on Scadrial... But the other shards aren't in similar circumstances. 

A magic system develops because of an interaction between the Investiture put into it from the Shards, and the planet itself... And Ruin and Preservation created a blank slate. An entirely new planet with no previous input. So their planet, and the life on it, is purely of them. 

Roshar in contrast, was crafted wholesale by Adonalsium. Much of the systems that we see in nature existed before the Shards ever arrived. Brandon has consistently said that there have only ever been three shards on Roshar, and yet... 

For a planet that exists, with a magic already in place what is going to happen is that they're going to expand upon what already exists.

Which fits what we see on Roshar. Brandon breaks Roshar down to 3 magic systems usually. (which fits his 10 or 30 quote). In his words, those three systems are Surgebinding, Voidbinding and Fabrials. If, as I think, the magical Focus for Roshar is the Surges themselves that means 10 Surges, with three systems that access them for 30 magic varieties. 

Break that down on Scadrial, and the numbers are drastically different... And you get a higher number of systems with fewer shards. 16 metals (excluding godmetals), 3 systems, for 48 variations. 

So, semantics on magic systems aside, I think there's the same number of magic systems in both words, and the circumstances of their creation is the reason for the difference... And for Feruchemy existing at all. 

I don't think I'd call what Taldain's Darkside has as a magic system at all

Quote

Rah179

How significant will the White Sand be to the cosmere? Any hints on the Shard that resides there?

Brandon Sanderson

Moderately. (Its magic has some cool ramifications for off world use, and several characters factor prominently into the Cosmere.)

Phantine

Is there more than one magic system in white sand?

Brandon Sanderson

Only one in the current outline.

WeiryWriter

Does the one magic have more than one variation? Because I got the impression that there was something going on on the Darkside? Though I guess the Sky Colors (I think that's what they're called, I read the draft you send out early 2014 so my recollection is a little fuzzy) don't have to be related to magic. Or you could have written them out if they were...

Brandon Sanderson

In intended the colors on Darkside to be more a matter of the ecology than the magic--though, on that planet, magic and ecology are very closely tied together. (Well, I guess most of the magics are.)

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 29, 2015)

It's just that the ecosystem itself is tied to Investiture, much like with native Rosharan creatures, except this one has humans as a part of that strange ecology, as the Shifting Colors (Skycolors in prose) are also connected with the humans, we see this with Khriss' musings on Kenton's eye colour

 

As for whether what Sel has can be classified as one magic system or many, is something Brandon draws a soft line on

Quote

Windrunner

Why does Scadrial, which has two Shards, only have three manifestations of investiture, (Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy) but Sel, also with two Shards, has five manifestations of investiture (AonDor, Dakhor, ChayShan, Forgery, and Bloodsealing)?

Brandon Sanderson

Sel's magics are much more regionalized than Scadrial's. Each area has its own manifestation, but they're all actually the same magic. So really there is one magic on Sel--much as Windrunning and Lightweaving on Roshar are kind of different magics, but also kind of the same.

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 15, 2013)

But he usually considers them separate due to their various differences and considers it a debate for in-world philosophers and Cosmerenauts

Edited by Honorless
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1 hour ago, Lunu’anaki said:

So, is your suggestion here that Forging and AonDor just require different symbols to access on different areas of Sel? If so, I agree with you 

But do you also think that Forging and AonDor are capable of doing the same things? Because that's where I would take issue. They are vastly different in what they do.

Just trying to understand. Like you said, it's mostly just a semantics issue which means we could describe them as 1000 "systems" or 1 "system" and be right both times, but on a fundemental level, if we're going to call AonDor and Forgery part of the same system, why is that different from combining Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemolurgy into one system by definition? Is there something intrinsic that separates the metallic arts but doesn't separate the Selish magics?

i would classify each magic system by which shard/s it draws power from so feruchemy, alloymancy and hemalugy are all different as they draw from different shards or combination of shards and it seems to be a pattern that each planet with two shards (we have yet to see a true tri shardic planet) has 1 magic for each shard and a mixed magic which is where i get the formula *2+1 for each shard that invests a planet and allows for it's magics to mix freely it will double the magics on that planet and add it's own as well resulting in this table


 

No. of shards

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

No. of magics

1

3

7

15

31

63

127

255

511

1023

2047

4095

8191

16383  

 32767  

65535

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4 hours ago, Lunu’anaki said:

But do you also think that Forging and AonDor are capable of doing the same things? Because that's where I would take issue. They are vastly different in what they do.

I really doubt that.. Unless we learn that forgery and it’s full potential has not been explored. But if he is saying that they are as same as windrunners and lightweavers are to each ohh thy er, then I think we can safely assume they are different.. 

how you access magic to bring about the desired results is very important.. there source is all the same but still..

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10 hours ago, Lunu’anaki said:

So, is your suggestion here that Forging and AonDor just require different symbols to access on different areas of Sel? If so, I agree with you 

But do you also think that Forging and AonDor are capable of doing the same things? Because that's where I would take issue. They are vastly different in what they do.

The methods in which they're deployed make them achieving the same things infeasible. Your not going to stamp the air to create a fireball, and your not going to draw an Aon to change someone's past. 

But we have plenty of hints that translation between areas are possible with the moon scepter. The reason that I think that the systems aren't regionally locked in quite the way they believe is suppose that an Elantrian went to MaiPon and learned enough of the local symbols to begin translating the Aons (or vice versa) the new Aons would have to be built around a symbol that is based on MaiPon... A region to which the Elantrian lacks Connection. See my issue? 

We've also been told that the moon scepter is only a part of the translation problem, and it acts as a Rosetta stone for the languages of Sel. If you have an accurate method of translation between the languages and that on itself won't allow you to use the magic elsewhere, the only other thing that we know is required is the Connection to the region... But if all you need are the correct symbols and the proper connection, what's to keep an Elantrian learning to forge if they can translate the MaiPon symbols to Aonic and already have the Connection to Arelon? 

So yes, I think that all of Sel's magics could theoretically be used anywhere in the world by any viable magic user... But to use them all effectively you'd have to essentially be omnilingual and skilled enough to translate everything. Good luck with that. 

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1 hour ago, Calderis said:

The methods in which they're deployed make them achieving the same things infeasible. Your not going to stamp the air to create a fireball, and your not going to draw an Aon to change someone's past. 

But we have plenty of hints that translation between areas are possible with the moon scepter. The reason that I think that the systems aren't regionally locked in quite the way they believe is suppose that an Elantrian went to MaiPon and learned enough of the local symbols to begin translating the Aons (or vice versa) the new Aons would have to be built around a symbol that is based on MaiPon... A region to which the Elantrian lacks Connection. See my issue? 

We've also been told that the moon scepter is only a part of the translation problem, and it acts as a Rosetta stone for the languages of Sel. If you have an accurate method of translation between the languages and that on itself won't allow you to use the magic elsewhere, the only other thing that we know is required is the Connection to the region... But if all you need are the correct symbols and the proper connection, what's to keep an Elantrian learning to forge if they can translate the MaiPon symbols to Aonic and already have the Connection to Arelon? 

So yes, I think that all of Sel's magics could theoretically be used anywhere in the world by any viable magic user... 

Okay I see what you’re getting at, the only thing that wigs me out is the mechanics of one are so different from the mechanics of another.

Quote

But to use them all effectively you'd have to essentially be omnilingual and skilled enough to translate everything. Good luck with that. 

We need Sel’s version of Teravangian!! 

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