Yolenlightweaver Posted November 8, 2019 Report Share Posted November 8, 2019 So I just wanted to throw this out there, I have been wondering about the mental autonomy of Voidspren. There exist many, like screamers, which don't show that they really think, just react and I accept that these can be the spren of Odium, but I don't think this accounts for spren like Ulim. They mention they have eyes like the Shin and often default to human form. Odium is shown to be able to take either shape of Listener or Human so I don't know why they wouldn't get that option if they are merely from Odium. To counter the Oathpact, some of the Humans that sided with Odium at the beginning might have asked to be turned to spren so they could come back, exist, affect, and bond with others to grant power. Their anger intact they will urge and sometimes control other creatures but I am not saying they have taken listener forms yet. I was just trying to also understand why Kaladin was able to kill one, when defending Gavinor, and we have never heard of the death of a spren before. I feel like they might have accidentally killed one with a shard blade before this accidentally at one point, especially with how many spren chill on a battlefield. I just wanted to get this down, sorry it is disjointed but feel free to weigh in however you would like! 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted November 8, 2019 Report Share Posted November 8, 2019 Both Ulim and Yixli are noted to have surprisingly human mannerisms by Kaladin and Venli & the other Listeners respectively. @Yolenlightweaver, good theory! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KandraAllomancer Posted November 8, 2019 Report Share Posted November 8, 2019 @Yolenlightweaver Excellent theory! It would also explain why the Voidspren we've seen all seem rather intelligent or mad (e,g, screamers) rather than truly mindless, like lesser spren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yezrien Posted November 8, 2019 Report Share Posted November 8, 2019 (edited) Very interesting. Maybe everyone who serves Odium faithfully gets some kind of spren-immortality as a reward, but only the Singers among them (i.e. the Fused) get to retake physical form because of their unique physiology. That would mean that the core of Odium's forces (voidspren and Fused) can grow stronger with each Desolation (albeit slightly more insane), while the Honor/Cultivation side will potentially only get weaker if Desolations come too close together. It reminds me of how voidlight holds itself in, while stormlight constantly leaks. An interesting parallel. It could also mean Amaram and Aesudan coming back as voidspren. Edited November 9, 2019 by Belzedar 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KandraAllomancer Posted November 8, 2019 Report Share Posted November 8, 2019 37 minutes ago, Belzedar said: It could also mean Amaram and Aesudan coming back as voidspren. Unless Yelig-nar actually can consume souls... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yezrien Posted November 8, 2019 Report Share Posted November 8, 2019 (edited) The epigraph says: Quote "Yelig-nar is said to consume souls, but I can't find a specific explanation. I'm uncertain this lore is correct." I'd say there's some room for interpretation there. Maybe this legend about "consuming souls" is the remnant of a horrible ancient truth: Yelig-Nar corrupts the souls of his hosts, digesting them into voidspren. Maybe Yelig-Nar is the very mechanism by which this theory is true. Yelig-Nar is Odium's GI tract: souls go in, voidspren come out. Edited November 9, 2019 by Belzedar 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted November 8, 2019 Report Share Posted November 8, 2019 (edited) One thing to bear in mind is that Odium doesn't like to Invest any more than he absolutely has to. He's been forced to Invest some of his power by default since he's been stuck in the Rosharan System for thousands of years and the Fused are useful to his plans but I'm not sure he'd really want to go giving anyone who sides with him a similar boon since every bit of Investiture he has to expend to do that means that much less readily available power to use if Cultivation ever decided to attack him directly. When it comes to spren like Ulim having very 'human' mannerisms and appearance, bear in mind that the exact same thing can be said for all honorspren and (on the Cognitive side) to most of the radiantspren we've seen to some degree or another but especially the reachers. None of these were originally human, that they look and act that way has to do with perception. Presumably spren like Ulim look that way due to a combination of how the singers perceived them and due to some influence by Odium whether consciously or otherwise. It's an interesting theory but I'm not sure it holds up. Edited November 8, 2019 by Weltall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KandraAllomancer Posted November 8, 2019 Report Share Posted November 8, 2019 11 minutes ago, Belzedar said: Yelig-Nar is Odium's GI tract: souls go in, voidspren come out. Interesting idea 7 minutes ago, Weltall said: One thing to bear in mind is that Odium doesn't like to Invest any more than he absolutely has to. He's been forced to Invest some of his power by default since he's been stuck in the Rosharan System for thousands of years and the Fused are useful to his plans but I'm not sure he'd really want to go giving anyone who sides with him a similar boon since every bit of Investiture he has to expend to do that means that much less readily available power to use if Cultivation ever decided to attack him directly. Based on his conversation with Turash at the Thaylen Field, Odium can revoke his gift at any time and get the Investiture back. Also, we don't know if creating spren out of humans is more costly than creating spren directly out of Shard's Investiture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted November 9, 2019 Report Share Posted November 9, 2019 (edited) Technically doing something to any human followers still wouldn't create spren, it would create Cognitive Shadows. They're two very different things Realmatically, Rosharan classifications aside. Yes, Odium threatens to revoke his 'gift' but we don't know that it's something that can be done quickly or en-masse. We know that a Shard needs time if they want to leave a world without leaving chunks of their power behind which suggests that reclaiming all his Investiture would take more time than Odium would have if Cultivation suddenly attacked him. Edited November 9, 2019 by Weltall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KandraAllomancer Posted November 9, 2019 Report Share Posted November 9, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Weltall said: Technically doing something to any human followers still wouldn't create spren, it would create Cognitive Shadows. They're two very different things Realmatically, Rosharan classifications aside. Realmatically, yes. But the Fused are, functionally speaking, very close to spren. Given enough time, they may become virtually indistinguishable (or at least I assume so) 12 minutes ago, Weltall said: Yes, Odium threatens to revoke his 'gift' but we don't know that it's something that can be done quickly or en-masse. We know that a Shard needs time if they want to leave a world without leaving chunks of their power behind which suggests that reclaiming all his Investiture would take more time than Odium would have if Cultivation suddenly attacked him. Cultivation would suffer from the same problem - she probably has even more spren. And she likely Invested in Roshar to a higher degree than Odium did on Braize Edited November 9, 2019 by KandraAllomancer 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilphon Posted November 9, 2019 Report Share Posted November 9, 2019 I dispute the idea that Cognitive Shadows and Spren are very different things realmatically. They're both sentient pieces of Investiture that interact with the physical realm is very limited ways, following specific rules. Seems to me the biggest differences between the two are their origins and how they reproduce. But- I think I buy the idea that the sapient Voidspren were once human. The specific detail that feels like a smoking gun to me is fact that they have Shin eyes- which wouldn't be the case if they were just based on how the Singers see humans. It implies to me their appearance isn't based on Rosharan humans. Though an alternative explanation for that is that they might just share their 'father's' ethnicity. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yolenlightweaver Posted November 11, 2019 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2019 On 11/8/2019 at 4:47 PM, Weltall said: When it comes to spren like Ulim having very 'human' mannerisms and appearance, bear in mind that the exact same thing can be said for all honorspren and (on the Cognitive side) to most of the radiantspren we've seen to some degree or another but especially the reachers. None of these were originally human, that they look and act that way has to do with perception. Presumably spren like Ulim look that way due to a combination of how the singers perceived them and due to some influence by Odium whether consciously or otherwise. You make a very good point in this in saying that Honorspren (or better yet Inkspren) have a similar appearance. I don't have a solid response to this, but there have been very good thoughts above. On 11/8/2019 at 7:13 PM, Gilphon said: I dispute the idea that Cognitive Shadows and Spren are very different things realmatically. They're both sentient pieces of Investiture that interact with the physical realm is very limited ways, following specific rules. Seems to me the biggest differences between the two are their origins and how they reproduce. I like this idea a lot in relation to the difference. They might be just cognitive shadows, invested enough to stay, or they might just be Odiums version of Honorspren, albeit there are differences that hint more human. Do we have a description of why Honorspren appear the way they do or for that matter Cryptics? We know Honor created Honorspren until the job went to the Stormfather, but what about the others that have human resemblance? Great ideas all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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