Spiderman: Far from home and lightweavers

[Aluminum]

I recently watched the newest spiderman movie so if you haven't seen it stop reading because.... SPOILERS!

 

So mysterio is making those giant monsters. Basically my question is do you think lightweavers could do something like that with a combination of soulcastings and lightweaving. 

[+Artemos]

Lightweaving, definitely. I don't think you would even need soulcasting, since there's nothing solid about mysterio's illusions (save the drones).

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Aluminum said:

I recently watched the newest spiderman movie so if you haven't seen it stop reading because.... SPOILERS!

 

So mysterio is making those giant monsters. Basically my question is do you think lightweavers could do something like that with a combination of soulcastings and lightweaving. 

I think so. And I also think it would be epic to see a kaiju-esque battle between a thunder clast and an illusion created golem/chasmfiend/dragon what have you. 

53 minutes ago, Artemos said:

Lightweaving, definitely. I don't think you would even need soulcasting, since there's nothing solid about mysterio's illusions (save the drones).

Well the drones mimic real phenomena. So they use a sonic/air attack to replicate a fist hitting you. They use explosions for lightning strikes and so on. So a lightweaver using illumination and transformation to make solid illusions would definitely accomplish that. 

[+Artemos]

On 11/7/2019 at 11:11 AM, Pathfinder said:

Well the drones mimic real phenomena. So they use a sonic/air attack to replicate a fist hitting you. They use explosions for lightning strikes and so on. So a lightweaver using illumination and transformation to make solid illusions would definitely accomplish that. 

I forgot about that. Very good point.

[Karger]

On 11/7/2019 at 11:11 AM, Pathfinder said:

I think so. And I also think it would be epic to see a kaiju-esque battle between a thunder clast and an illusion created golem/chasmfiend/dragon what have you. 

My personal theory is that the culmination of Shallan's arc is going to be her going toe to toe with the midnight mother in a battle of monsters.  I don't think that the monsters will be the ones to do the finishing move but it will still look awesome.

Edited November 10, 2019 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

23 hours ago, Karger said:

My personal theory is that the culmination of Shallan's arc is going to be her going toe to toe with the midnight mother in a battle of monsters.  I don't think that the monsters will be the ones to do the finishing move but it will still look awesome.

I could see that happening. 

[Aon Tia]

On 11/7/2019 at 9:41 PM, Pathfinder said:

Well the drones mimic real phenomena. So they use a sonic/air attack to replicate a fist hitting you. They use explosions for lightning strikes and so on. So a lightweaver using illumination and transformation to make solid illusions would definitely accomplish that. 

Yes I can see that.. already she had created illusions wi some weight in OB at the end and Jasnah thought using both surges to create a fake army with mass is possible. Shallan has already created giant illusion of Kaladin to distract the chasmfiend from squishing him. 

@Karger in that showdown, already shallan’s illusions are better than midnight mothers but if shallan manages to give them actual weight too by transforming air into matter etc then I think midnight mother would totally flip out.. 

Also guys, I have always wondered if surge of illumination allows shallan to become invisible.. because I don’t see why not..

[Karger]

29 minutes ago, The traveller said:

 in that showdown, already shallan’s illusions are better than midnight mothers but if shallan manages to give them actual weight too by transforming air into matter etc then I think midnight mother would totally flip out.. 

Yes but physical damage is not what scares her. 

29 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Also guys, I have always wondered if surge of illumination allows shallan to become invisible.. because I don’t see why not..

I don't think so. 

1. True invisibility is kind of OP.

2. From what we have seen with Lightweaving you need an actual image of what you are making.

[Aon Tia]

27 minutes ago, Karger said:

Yes but physical damage is not what scares her. 

No not scare her! What I meant was that midnight mother wants to create human illusions so if she sees shallan actually create perfect human illusions that also feel real to touch that will astound her completely.. 
 

29 minutes ago, Karger said:

From what we have seen with Lightweaving you need an actual image of what you are making.

And we also know that pattern says this is how shallan is thinking her power works but an actual image is not needed.. and I don’t think every lightweaver will be into sketching. There were all sorts of artists in the order so I don’t see everyone requiring to draw.. 

And invisibility is hardly that OP.. it is something which is very common and could be very useful against smokeform..

[Karger]

57 minutes ago, The traveller said:

And invisibility is hardly that OP.. it is something which is very common and could be very useful against smokeform..

I see no reason why this could not just be a disguise self form.

58 minutes ago, The traveller said:

No not scare her! What I meant was that midnight mother wants to create human illusions so if she sees shallan actually create perfect human illusions that also feel real to touch that will astound her completely.. 

Maybe.

58 minutes ago, The traveller said:

And we also know that pattern says this is how shallan is thinking her power works but an actual image is not needed

My point is that Shallan cannot make a constantly changing image.  Several times she makes images without sketching but she always makes something.  Under some terrain you might be able to do various kinds of camouflage but actual invisibility requires that you constantly update the image to always cover what is on every side of you.  If some one walks past you must be able to project them at exactly the right place from every angle simultaneously.  We lightweavers are impressive but even we cannot work from every angle at the same time.

[Aon Tia]

3 minutes ago, Karger said:

My point is that Shallan cannot make a constantly changing image.  Several times she makes images without sketching but she always makes something.  Under some terrain you might be able to do various kinds of camouflage but actual invisibility requires that you constantly update the image to always cover what is on every side of you.  If some one walks past you must be able to project them at exactly the right place from every angle simultaneously.  We lightweavers are impressive but even we cannot work from every angle at the same time.

I will have to agree with all of this.. you are a lightweaver? Nice.. Feel free to take some soul casting lessons from this elsecaller..

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

My point is that Shallan cannot make a constantly changing image.  Several times she makes images without sketching but she always makes something.  Under some terrain you might be able to do various kinds of camouflage but actual invisibility requires that you constantly update the image to always cover what is on every side of you.  If some one walks past you must be able to project them at exactly the right place from every angle simultaneously.  We lightweavers are impressive but even we cannot work from every angle at the same time.

So few things.

First, we saw Shallan quickly cover herself from head to toe with the color black to blend in to the shadow she was standing in to avoid Amaram. So not only can lightweavers make illusions without having to draw them or shape them first (Pattern was perplexed as to why she felt she needed to), but it is also possible to make quick color changes across your body. 

Second, if Shallan could only create stationary illusions, I would agree with you, but that is not the case. If we were only talking Shallan early on, then I would again agree with you, but again that is not the case. Let us take an illusion of everybody's prize boy Adolin. If that illusion runs forward, the illusion has to account for the legs moving, the arms moving. The illusion has to account for the movement of the clothing rippling in the breeze as he runs. If the illusion swings a sword, the illusion has to account for all the various folds of the clothing changing across the body. Video game modeling is a prime example of this. The characters in Fire Emblem are beautifully drawn, and move animatedly with their dialogue. The problem? When Dorothea (who has long hair that drapes over the front of her shoulders) turns her head to the right, the hair remains rigid and sticks out like it is laying across something invisible. Shallan's illusions are reactive. For those reasons I think it is possible for Shallan to cover herself with an illusion head to toe that mimics her surroundings. If you really want to push it, then add to it there is pattern to help with the maintenance. I see it working like the paryl drafters from the Lightbringer series. everything would be invisible except the pupils, so the lightweaver would need to look down, or find ways of avoiding detection of their pupils. 

[Aon Tia]

May be a fifth level lightweaver can do it more easily..

[Karger]

26 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Second, if Shallan could only create stationary illusions, I would agree with you, but that is not the case. If we were only talking Shallan early on, then I would again agree with you, but again that is not the case. Let us take an illusion of everybody's prize boy Adolin. If that illusion runs forward, the illusion has to account for the legs moving, the arms moving. The illusion has to account for the movement of the clothing rippling in the breeze as he runs. If the illusion swings a sword, the illusion has to account for all the various folds of the clothing changing across the body. Video game modeling is a prime example of this. The characters in Fire Emblem are beautifully drawn, and move animatedly with their dialogue. The problem? When Dorothea (who has long hair that drapes over the front of her shoulders) turns her head to the right, the hair remains rigid and sticks out like it is laying across something invisible. Shallan's illusions are reactive. For those reasons I think it is possible for Shallan to cover herself with an illusion head to toe that mimics her surroundings. If you really want to push it, then add to it there is pattern to help with the maintenance. I see it working like the paryl drafters from the Lightbringer series. everything would be invisible except the pupils, so the lightweaver would need to look down, or find ways of avoiding detection of their pupils. 

I agree that Shallan can make reactive illusions however without direct constant supervision and a perpendicularity we have never seen them react or move on a scale required to cover every side and angle.  There is another problem with invisibility though.  Shallan's illusions are not one sided.  If you make yourself unnoticeable from all sides you will blind yourself.

[Pathfinder]

 

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

I agree that Shallan can make reactive illusions however without direct constant supervision and a perpendicularity we have never seen them react or move on a scale required to cover every side and angle. 

Shallan has made nesting illusions (as in wearing just a shift, and putting an illusion of shirt and pants, and then illusion of a dress) at Urithiru (no perp), and at Kholinar (no perp). Those illusions as I said require the clothing to be able to flow naturally with her form, otherwise you get the model programming issue I mentioned in my last post. So we have see it be done without a perp. 

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

There is another problem with invisibility though.  Shallan's illusions are not one sided.  If you make yourself unnoticeable from all sides you will blind yourself.

Already covered that in my last post. Have you read the light bringer series? Actually let me just quote myself again instead of typing it all over again:

 

"I see it working like the paryl drafters from the Lightbringer series. everything would be invisible except the pupils, so the lightweaver would need to look down at the ground while they walk so their pupils are not as visible, or find ways of avoiding detection of their pupils. "

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

"I see it working like the paryl drafters from the Lightbringer series. everything would be invisible except the pupils, so the lightweaver would need to look down at the ground while they walk so their pupils are not as visible, or find ways of avoiding detection of their pupils. "

That would ruin your peripheral vision.  I do think that you have some time or a photographic memory you might be able to do something along these lines if you are standing still(although a perceptive person is going to notice things you can't do much about like shadow or maybe just a general fuzz.  However if you are doing your invisibility and someone runs through the area behind you I don't think you can lightweaving to preprogram the illusion to include someone you have never seen before.  I think Khriss also mentions in her essay that you need a Connection to the person whose form you want to use as an illusion.

[Pathfinder]

32 minutes ago, Karger said:

That would ruin your peripheral vision.  I do think that you have some time or a photographic memory you might be able to do something along these lines if you are standing still(although a perceptive person is going to notice things you can't do much about like shadow or maybe just a general fuzz.  However if you are doing your invisibility and someone runs through the area behind you I don't think you can lightweaving to preprogram the illusion to include someone you have never seen before.  I think Khriss also mentions in her essay that you need a Connection to the person whose form you want to use as an illusion.

So I went through this already in another place, so I will do my best to explain how I envision it, and then leave it be. We know via:

Elantris Spoilers

Spoiler

Raoden posing as a Duladel

It is possible to attach an illusion to something. A part of clothing, etc. We also see this with Shallan. We see Shallan cover herself with the color black from head to toe to hide from Amaram without messing up her eyesight. The aperture that you see out of with your eye is your pupil. The pupil is what lets light in for your brain to register. There are contact lenses that cover the entire eye except the pupil, and people can see out of that. There are colored contacts that cover the iris to change its color, yet people are still able to see since the pupil is uncovered. As long as the pupil remains unobstructed, you will have peripheral vision. The illusion could be attached to the pupils, so the pupils could still expand and contract with the illusion, without the illusion covering the pupils. Shallan should already have to do this when she changes her eye color when she goes out as Veil the darkeyes. So her vision should be unaffected. The problem is people will see two little black dots suspended in mid air. Hence looking towards the ground by tilting the head, or coming up with some other ways to help the two black dots to avoid detection. 

(I have attached an image of a sclera contact lens. The idea is the red area, as well as the rest of the face is covered in the illusion. only the pupil is uncovered. the individual using that contact lens that I have attached is able to see.)

As to the issue you are bringing up regarding someone behind the lightweaver. That is assuming "invisibility" technology of having to have cameras take an image behind the person, and produce the image on the person so to produce "reactive" camouflage. That is not the only way. There are metamaterials that can bend light. Where we are currently is only 2 dimensional and only a very very small space, but considering the whole purpose of lightweavers is manipulating light (we know they can make lasers for instance), I see no reason why they could not be able to create illusions that bend light around them, providing functional invisibility, without the needs of being aware of your surroundings to constantly change the image.  

Edited November 12, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

manipulating light (we know they can make lasers for instance), I see no reason why they could not be able to create illusions that bend light around them, providing functional invisibility, without the needs of being aware of your surroundings to constantly change the image.  

I do.  Bending light like that would cause distortion.  You would get a fuzzy area.  Like a mirage.

[Pathfinder]

14 minutes ago, Karger said:

I do.  Bending light like that would cause distortion.  You would get a fuzzy area.  Like a mirage.

With our current level of technology in the real world you would get a mirage yes. But also with our current technology in the real world we need a power source to produce a laser. Lightweavers can just make them. We have trouble making "holograms". The closest we have come is projecting over a mist, or spinning diodes really fast to produce an image with seeming depth. Yet again, lightweavers can produce full illusions, some of which can be interacted with. So again I see no reason why bending light would be off the table for an order of knights that literally manipulate light. But since you do, then to each their own. 

[Quantus]

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

With our current level of technology in the real world you would get a mirage yes. But also with our current technology in the real world we need a power source to produce a laser. Lightweavers can just make them. We have trouble making "holograms". The closest we have come is projecting over a mist, or spinning diodes really fast to produce an image with seeming depth. Yet again, lightweavers can produce full illusions, some of which can be interacted with. So again I see no reason why bending light would be off the table for an order of knights that literally manipulate light. But since you do, then to each their own. 

Agreed.  There's no reason to assume they would have fidelity limitations for that application when they have none on their ordinary illusions. The closest thing is that bit Hoid mentioned about people forgetting the back of the head, but more that's a matter visualizing the full illusion correctly.  If what they are trying to do is to create an illusion over the person, more of an active camoflauge, then I think the Lightweaver might struggle to be able to get a bunch of perspectives correct all at the same time.  If instead they are literally manipulating the light itsef to bend around the hidden object and continue on it's original trajectory, that might actually be easier to do since the Intent is pretty simple and straightforward, even if the literal physics arent.  

[Karger]

This is all of course subject to whatever decision making process Brandon makes when he makes the call.  I personally think he would pass on making invisible opponents.  They are really difficult to fight.  To each their own.

[Aon Tia]

4 hours ago, Karger said:

I personally think he would pass on making invisible opponents.  They are really difficult to fight.

Difficult but not impossible.. and I still believe that when singers have forms of power like smokeform where “they can hide and slip between men” which sounds very much like invisibility, it would be useful to have the same on our side too.

@Pathfinder yes, bending the light so it is allowed to follow the trajectory as if there was no object in the way rendering lightweaver invisible is what I had in mind too.. I think it would be much easier and simple intent wise then to put illusion matching your surroundings..  But that can work too..

Edited November 13, 2019 by The traveller

[Karger]

4 minutes ago, The traveller said:

“they can hide and slip between men” which sounds very much like invisibility

Or as I pointed out just disguise like that fused we saw in Oathbringer.

[Pathfinder]

17 hours ago, The traveller said:

Difficult but not impossible.. and I still believe that when singers have forms of power like smokeform where “they can hide and slip between men” which sounds very much like invisibility, it would be useful to have the same on our side too.

@Pathfinder yes, bending the light so it is allowed to follow the trajectory as if there was no object in the way rendering lightweaver invisible is what I had in mind too.. I think it would be much easier and simple intent wise then to put illusion matching your surroundings..  But that can work too..

I agree, and considering we already have enemies that are insubstantial (shades from Threnody), where only one type of weapon actually harms them (play DnD with those enemies, without the proper weapons and see how far you get), then I think invisibility is on the table. I would argue fighting something that is insubstantial with only one weakness that without you are screwed, is far worse than invisibility, considering there are ways and tricks of dealing with someone invisible (throw a bomb in the area you suspect the invisible person. Invisibility does not protect from AoE. Throw dust. Listen for movement. And so on)

Edited November 13, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Aon Tia]

7 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I agree, and considering we already have enemies that are insubstantial (shades from Threnody), where only one type of weapon actually harms them (play DnD with those enemies, without the proper weapons and see how far you get), then I think invisibility is on the table. I would argue fighting something that is insubstantial with only one weakness that without you are screwed, is far worse than invisibility, considering there are ways and tricks of dealing with someone invisible (throw a bomb in the area you suspect the invisible person. Invisibility does not protect from AoE. Throw dust. Listen for movement. And so on)

Yes there can be many scenarios in Cosmere where invisibility will not come across as too OP.