The issue of the Nightwatcher

[KandraAllomancer]

There are some things that bother me about the Nightwatcher. Let's look at the other godspren first:

• The Stormfather - responsible for the Highstorms that provide Stormlight
• The Sibling - probably powers Urithiru
• The Unmade - Voidbiding originates with them and, at least in Ba-Ado-Mishram's case, they provide Voidlight

Their names are self-explanatory or have a known source (Near East mythology, Lovecraft). They provide essential advantages for their respective sides of conflict.

So, why is Cultivation's godspren called the Nightwatcher? And can she provide something useful for the Knights Radiant?

I can see several options:

• Old Magic, obviously. The problem is, most boons are kind of useless in the broader perspective. The two that provide the biggest advantage to the KR, Dalinar's and Lift's, seem to originate from Cultivation directly (the latter based on this WoB)
• The Unmade apparently cannot affect Nighwatcher's Valley. The same used to apply to Urithiru. I used to think it was due to Cultivation and the Sibling, respectively, but what if that was always Nightwatcher's role? Guarding against Odium's forces? This would provide nice contrast with Sja-anat. One modifies people, the other modifies spren. One guards the KR, the other is Odium's spy
• Future sight. Dalinar has a vision of killing Elhokar in the Valley (this could be of Cultivation, obviously). This would provide a nice link with the name of the Order of Truthwatchers. Also, it provides some additional explanation why Vorinism looks unfavorably on searching Nightwatcher's help

What do you think?

Edited November 11, 2019 by KandraAllomancer

[Karger]

Personally I think her name comes from a cultural association of her with death.  As in "all save the Heralds must dine with the Nightwatcher"

[+Bliev]

I think that the intent of Cultivation--to take the long game, to gently urge growth and change--is what is really captured in the name "Nightwatcher". Cultivation watches, deliberates, acts in small and subtle ways--like Cass Sunstein's gentle nudges. Likewise, the Nightwatcher watches humanity--she learns how to nudge their behavior in certain ways. She is being cultivated--trained--by her mother to cultivate others on her mother's behalf. That's how I see it. But unlike Honor, she cannot just infuse her spren with the knowledge and will and sentience to achieve a task when she dies, it must be grown and cultivated. And I think she knows she will--or even intends to--die in this battle with Odium.  

I think it is this long game that might just be the bane of Odium's existence. We have seen that his future sight is more limited than Cultivation's, as it is filtered through his anger and hatred (i.e., he saw Dalinar as Champion; she saw the possibility of it, but yet others as well). He acts, where she watches. Some perceive this as cowardice? I see it as patience. 

I agree with the link to the Truthwatchers, though--makes sense there would be a link there. I also think that one of the generative components of the "don't trust those who can see the future" or "future sight is of the enemy" is the variance that exists in the future, and how people may, almost fatalistically, live up to expectations if they know what the future will hold. Teaching people to mistrust this future sight reminds people to take responsibility for their actions, to not ascribe them to "fate" or "fortune". I also think that's why Cultivation is "better" at it--she's more comfortable with ambiguity and being hand's off. Odium likes to be in control. 

Again, my own speculation .  

[Honorless]

Agree with Karger's interpretation. As we also see in Scadrial with 'Ironeyes', some figures just become culturally associated with something negative as people forget the original stories. On Roshar, we already know that to be the case: with Vorinism's stance on visiting the Nightwatcher as well as conflating the Nightwatcher with the Unmade, Chemoarish.

I'm with the counterpart to Sja-Anat theory, one modifies men, the other spren

[Karger]

7 hours ago, Honorless said:

I'm with the counterpart to Sja-Anat theory, one modifies men, the other spren

If that is true then should not all the great spren have counterparts?

[Honorless]

28 minutes ago, Karger said:

If that is true then should not all the great spren have counterparts?

Counterparts not as in by Realmatic mechanics. Just that one does something that corresponds to what the other does.

The Unmade may have been unmade for specific purposes by Odium

[KandraAllomancer]

29 minutes ago, Karger said:

If that is true then should not all the great spren have counterparts?

Hmm, it would probably have to be 3-to-1...

I think it can be done - each Bondsmith godspren gets one intelligent, one intermediate (for a lack of a better word) and one mindless Unmade:

Stormfather

Ba-Ado-Mishram - she provides Voidlight and Forms of Power. Highstorms provide Stormlight and allow Singers to change forms. She prepares a False Desolation, Stormfather prepares people for the oncoming Desolation

Chemoarish, I guess? Judging by her name, she quite destructive, as are Highstorms

Nergaoul - both represent fury, in a way. Both are extremely important in Dalinar's life

Nighwatcher

Sja-anat, obviously

Re-Shephir - both want to understand humans

Moelach - future sight

Sibling

Yelig-nar - grants access to Surges and requires a gemstone - qualities shared by fabrials. Also, he destroys libraries and gemstone library in Urithiru was created to avoid this

Dai-Gonarthis - probably takes part in the destruction of Aimia, which was a source of Surge fabrials. Knowledge about both is mostly lost

Ashertmarn - grows on a working fabrial (Oathgate)

 

 

[KandraAllomancer]

14 hours ago, Debarra said:

All three are pretty good answers. To offer one alternative possiblity for the old magic, her costs could proof useful if used against the enemy.

This is a very interesting idea. It would even be similar to (Mistborn spoilers)

Spoiler

Elend's army of Atium Mistings

, but it would be hard to gather these people in one place to fight Odium in a coordinated way.

13 hours ago, Karger said:

Personally I think her name comes from a cultural association of her with death.  As in "all save the Heralds must dine with the Nightwatcher"

Could be, but it poses another obvious question - what was her original name?

10 hours ago, Bliev said:

I think it is this long game that might just be the bane of Odium's existence. We have seen that his future sight is more limited than Cultivation's, as it is filtered through his anger and hatred (i.e., he saw Dalinar as Champion; she saw the possibility of it, but yet others as well). He acts, where she watches. Some perceive this as cowardice? I see it as patience. 

I agree with all of this, but I think there should be more to the Nighwatcher. Two important points:

• For now the long game is played almost exclusively by Cultivation, while the Nightwatcher only seems to provide a smokescreen for that
• Both Stormfather and the Unmade were something else before they became godspren. I would be reasonable that the Nighwatcher had some powers or represented something before Cultivation and Old Magic

It's just a hunch, I have no evidence for this, but what if her original abilities affected Singers somehow? Many of us (including me) believe that Rlain will be Nightwatcher's Bondsmith, and it would be interesting to see what she can do for them (besides Old Magic)

Edited November 7, 2019 by KandraAllomancer

[+Bliev]

On 11/7/2019 at 8:15 AM, KandraAllomancer said:

I agree with all of this, but I think there should be more to the Nighwatcher. Two important points:

• For now the long game is played almost exclusively by Cultivation, while the Nightwatcher only seems to provide a smokescreen for that
• Both Stormfather and the Unmade were something else before they became godspren. I would be reasonable that the Nighwatcher had some powers or represented something before Cultivation and Old Magic

It's just a hunch, I have no evidence for this, but what if her original abilities affected Singers somehow? Many of us (including me) believe that Rlain will be Nightwatcher's Bondsmith, and it would be interesting to see what she can do for them (besides Old Magic)

I would separate out the Stormfather and the Unmade. The Stormfather was less sentient when Honor was alive, until imbued intentionally with Honor's power and the visions, etc. He was created by Honor, and could bond humans, but was not what he is now. So I quibble just a bit with the idea that he was "something else" before he became a godspren. I do not think that the Stormfather or the Nightwatcher existed before Honor and Cultivation settled on Roshar. Please correct me if I am wrong!

However, I do wonder if Cultivation saw how Honor intentionally empowered the Stormfather when he knew his death was imminent and is likewise beginning to cultivate similarly with the Nightwatcher as she sees the impending battle looming?

[Honorless]

5 minutes ago, Bliev said:

I would separate out the Stormfather and the Unmade. The Stormfather was less sentient when Honor was alive, until imbued intentionally with Honor's power and the visions, etc. He was created by Honor, and could bond humans, but was not what he is now. So I quibble just a bit with the idea that he was "something else" before he became a godspren. I do not think that the Stormfather or the Nightwatcher existed before Honor and Cultivation settled on Roshar. Please correct me if I am wrong!

However, I do wonder if Cultivation saw how Honor intentionally empowered the Stormfather when he knew his death was imminent and is likewise beginning to cultivate similarly with the Nightwatcher as she sees the impending battle looming?

The Stormfather was created by Adonalsium. He is a natural and integral part of Roshar's ecology, not just for precipitation but also distributing crem, which doesn't just provide nutrition but also deposits itself to ensure that the continent continues to exist since Roshar doesn't have plate tectonics. He also distributed a form of Stormlight even before the arrival of Honor.

Since The Stormfather considers both The Nightwatcher and The Sibling as his siblings and counterparts, it seems highly likely that they were created by Adonalsium too.

[+Bliev]

39 minutes ago, Honorless said:

The Stormfather was created by Adonalsium. He is a natural and integral part of Roshar's ecology, not just for precipitation but also distributing crem, which doesn't just provide nutrition but also deposits itself to ensure that the continent continues to exist since Roshar doesn't have plate tectonics. He also distributed a form of Stormlight even before the arrival of Honor.

Since The Stormfather considers both The Nightwatcher and The Sibling as his siblings and counterparts, it seems highly likely that they were created by Adonalsium too.

I'm sorry, I was looking high and low for this information, bc I knew of the WOB that the highstorms were native to Roshar, but had not read that the Stormfather as spren predated Honor. Could you point me to that WOB? 

[KandraAllomancer]

1 hour ago, Bliev said:

I'm sorry, I was looking high and low for this information, bc I knew of the WOB that the highstorms were native to Roshar, but had not read that the Stormfather as spren predated Honor. Could you point me to that WOB? 

It's really a combination of several WoBs. Here's what I was able to find:

Highstorms predate the Shattering:

Quote

Questioner

Pre-Shattering magic in books?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's see. I would count the highstorms as that. Highstorm predates the Shattering. Now, the highstorm has been changed dramatically by certain events, but the highstorm does predate the Shattering.

Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017)

Some spren predate the Shattering (also Mistborn spoilers):

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Please explain what you will about Shards and Splintering and Slivers.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

An event happened long ago which destroyed something called Adonalsium into 16 pieces. And 16 people took up that power.

Questioner (paraphrased)

People?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

I call all intelligent species people. If someone takes up the power and lets go of it, it has the effect much like a balloon that's been stretched and then the air is let out. I call that a Sliver; based off of the Lord Ruler calling himself the "Sliver of Infinity". The Lord Ruler is someone who held the power and then released it. And so, current Slivers are the Lord Ruler, Kelsier, and there may be others around who at one point held the power and let go of it. A Splinter is a term used by certain people in the cosmere for power of Adonalsium which has no person caring for it, no... no person holding it, which has attained self-awareness.

Questioner (paraphrased)

So is that like the mists and the Well? Are they...

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They are not, because they have not attained self-awareness. But, the Seons are self-aware. So, any piece, for instance there were some spren on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation got there. Those were already Splinters of Adonalsium where he had left power which attained sentience on its own. So, it can be intentional is what I am saying, does that make sense? You have seen other Splinters.

Questioner (paraphrased)

Are the highstorms related to the Splintering of Honor?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The highstorms are more related to the mist from Mistborn which terminology we have not discussed yet. You have seen Splinters quite a bit on various planets.

Steelheart Seattle signing (Oct. 14, 2013)

 

Stormfather provides the Stormlight from the Spiritual Realm:

Quote

Narkac

Where does the Stormlight in highstorms come from? Is there like a "rain cycle", but for the Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

The Stormlight in the highstorm is transferred from the Spiritual realm through the Stormfather into the highstorm.

Paris signing (Oct. 22, 2016)

 

[+Bliev]

I think the coppermind specifically infers that Honor created the Stormfather and likewise Cultivation with the Nightwatcher, and without evidence otherwise, I think I’ll stick with that as my own personal theory. I think highstorms predate the shattering per WOB but the Stormfather was a spren created by Honor—first as less sapient and later as his splinter. But it is definitely worth discussing pending future information!

Edited November 12, 2019 by Bliev

[KandraAllomancer]

23 hours ago, Bliev said:

I think the coppermind specifically infers that Honor created the Stormfather and likewise Cultivation with the Nightwatcher, and without evidence otherwise, I think I’ll stick with that as my own personal theory. I think highstorms predate the shattering per WOB but the Stormfather was a spren created by Honor—first as less sapient and later as his splinter. But it is definitely worth discussing pending future information!

I tried to find this information, but you're right - there is no explicit, 100% confirmation that the Stormfather existed before Honor. I still think he predates the Shattering though. Spren are the personification of cognitive ideas, and the idea of Highstorm must have been one of the first the ancient Singers had. Plus, if the Stormfather didn't provide Stormlight then, it must have come from some kind of Perpendicularity, which are hard to come by without a Shard

[+Bliev]

15 hours ago, KandraAllomancer said:

I tried to find this information, but you're right - there is no explicit, 100% confirmation that the Stormfather existed before Honor. I still think he predates the Shattering though. Spren are the personification of cognitive ideas, and the idea of Highstorm must have been one of the first the ancient Singers had. Plus, if the Stormfather didn't provide Stormlight then, it must have come from some kind of Perpendicularity, which are hard to come by without a Shard

I think that's a fine theory! Just one I don't necessarily subscribe too. ;-) I do think there were probably high storm spren, though? Maybe the "storm striders" Kal sees are the spren of the storm from long ago? Stormlight is gaseous investiture that is currently provided/subsumed into Honor, so I'm sure there was, as suggested, an early version of gaseous investiture that was of Adonalsium on the planet. Probably what inspired Tanavast to manifest in the way he did. 

Regardless, what I love about this convo is how many questions Brandon has left us to ponder and find the answers to. I remember my first read of mistborn back in 2013 and my months-long rabid cosmere reading and when I found the Coppermind back then and WHEW all the answers we've gotten since! Maybe we'll get some of these answered when Stormlight 4 comes out??

[KandraAllomancer]

6 hours ago, Bliev said:

Maybe we'll get some of these answered when Stormlight 4 comes out??

Hopefully

6 hours ago, Bliev said:

Maybe the "storm striders" Kal sees are the spren of the storm from long ago?

Per this WoB, it seems that they technically can (but don't) leave the Highstorm:

Quote

Questioner

...Can the Storm Striders move when a highstorm is not passing?

Brandon Sanderson

No... Can is a strong term. They do not, how's that?

Skyward Atlanta signing (Nov. 17, 2018)

Stormfather probably cannot do that. Then again, maybe it's something Tanavast specifically changed

6 hours ago, Bliev said:

Stormlight is gaseous investiture that is currently provided/subsumed into Honor, so I'm sure there was, as suggested, an early version of gaseous investiture that was of Adonalsium on the planet. Probably what inspired Tanavast to manifest in the way he did. 

According to the WoB below, all Investiture got assigned to different Shard upon the Shattering, so Tanavast probably didn't have much choice in that matter. He just got the Highstorms:

Quote

Overlord Jebus

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

Overlord Jebus

Are they aware of that Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things.

Overlord Jebus

So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

[Quantus]

On 11/11/2019 at 2:59 PM, Bliev said:

So I quibble just a bit with the idea that he was "something else" before he became a godspren. I do not think that the Stormfather or the Nightwatcher existed before Honor and Cultivation settled on Roshar. Please correct me if I am wrong!

 

I think you are mixing up a few milestones there.  The Stormfather was a full, sapient Godspren before Honor Died and crammed his Cognitive Shadow onto the spren.  That happened sometime at the end of the Desolations around the time of the Recreance, but prior to that there had still been the same three Godspren empowering three Radiant Bondsmiths.  The Stormfather was changed dramatically by being Honor's ghostly heir (becoming more human and less elemental in his logic and understanding), but that is him becoming something more than the godspren he was.  It doesnt mean he was less than the other two, it just means that he was still more of an elemental Embodiment of a Storm, with some of the common lack of understanding mortals that spren have;  getting merged with the Ghost of Tanavast got him past that fundamental perspective limit and made him able to better understand mortals, their emotions and motivations.  

[KandraAllomancer]

5 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I think you are mixing up a few milestones there.  The Stormfather was a full, sapient Godspren before Honor Died and crammed his Cognitive Shadow onto the spren.

I think we can all agree on that. What we can't agree on is if Stormfather existed before the Shattering, because he couldn't be a godspren then, just a powerful Highstorm spren

[Quantus]

6 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

I think we can all agree on that. What we can't agree on is if Stormfather existed before the Shattering, because he couldn't be a godspren then, just a powerful Highstorm spren

And that is a whole other timeframe, though I personally think it's a lot less relevant.  The Highstorm, Stormlight-in-Gems, the Investiture Ecosystem, and technically Lightweaveing all predate the Shattering, but those disparate datapoints dont tell us anything at all about what might have been the same or different when Adonalsium was still active.  For all we know Rosharan Spren are the direct result of the Shattering the same way Seons/Skaze are the direct result of the Shardic Shatterings on Sel.  

Edited November 13, 2019 by Quantus

[KandraAllomancer]

7 minutes ago, Quantus said:

For all we know Rosharan Spren are the direct result of the Shattering the same way Seons/Skaze are the direct result of the Shardic Shatterings on Sel.

Per this WoB, some of them predate the Shattering. I believe the Stormfather could be one of them, and so could Nightwatcher

[Quantus]

15 hours ago, KandraAllomancer said:

Per this WoB, some of them predate the Shattering. I believe the Stormfather could be one of them, and so could Nightwatcher

Nice, thanks!  I knew of the one about the Highstorm predating, but I didnt recall one specifying that there were Spren of Adonalsium around.