PrinceGenocide

There's something about SEL or is there ?

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So in her essay about Sel I arcanum unbounded, Khriss says :

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Indeed, I believe that the very landscape itself has become Invested to the point that it has a growing self-awareness, in a way unseen on other planets in the cosmere.

I do not know how this happened, or what the ramifications will be.I’ve begun to wonder if something greater is happening on Sel than we, at the universities of Silverlight, have guessed. Something with origins lost in time.

I read Emperor's soul after this and was very awed by the fact that the wall , etc were alive.

But then I read secret history and stormlight trilogy and well the walls , sticks , etc are all alive there too. 

Not only are they alive they seemingly have some sapience and will as well as made clear by Shallan's attempt to turn Stick into fire and it's reply in the negative and it's adamant refusal.

Indeed one could argue Roshar is more alive than Sel. Afterall Stick was able to beat shallan in a war of wills , whereas on Sel you can interforge anything as long as it has a plausible alternate history. 

And I can't remember any startling examples but I think the fire that kelsier used in the cognitive during his journey to the Ire was also sentiant.

So what's so special about Sel ?

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The Cognitive aspects of objects are perceptual constructs. They aren't sentient. They aren't really "thinking." they're just a reflection of the things that are perceived ived and thought about them. The storming stick is just a stick. The winds pleasure cared for its crew because they cared for it. They aren't actually alive anymore than the same objects in our world.

Sel, on the other hand, has a landscape so infused with Investiture that it's becoming somewhat alive in its own right. It's Cognitive aspects would have actual Cognitive activity, not just reflections. Being sentient and not sapient, it probably wouldn't be complicated, but it would be more than just an inanimate creature, bound to the reflections of thinking beings. 

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5 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

So in her essay about Sel I arcanum unbounded, Khriss says :

I read Emperor's soul after this and was very awed by the fact that the wall , etc were alive.

But then I read secret history and stormlight trilogy and well the walls , sticks , etc are all alive there too. 

Not only are they alive they seemingly have some sapience and will as well as made clear by Shallan's attempt to turn Stick into fire and it's reply in the negative and it's adamant refusal.

Indeed one could argue Roshar is more alive than Sel. Afterall Stick was able to beat shallan in a war of wills , whereas on Sel you can interforge anything as long as it has a plausible alternate history. 

And I can't remember any startling examples but I think the fire that kelsier used in the cognitive during his journey to the Ire was also sentiant.

So what's so special about Sel ?

This topic has been discussed before, I'll copy my thoughts on that discussion to over here for the sake of expediency:

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always thought those lines from Khriss might refer to the nations on Sel, not the planet itself. As in,  the nations are somehow beginning to differentiate between its own people and people from other nations (and being somewhat better at it than Nightblood trying to distinguish between good and evil)

If the Dor itself gains consciousness... 

I like that theory very much!

Sadly, though:

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Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Odium locked the Selish Shards in the Cognitive Realm to keep them from achieving sentience or someone Ascending.

Footnote: taken from General Q&A
Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

So, probably not

The Dor cannot gain consciousness because it is stuffed in the Cognitive Realm and Sel itself does not qualify as a vessel according to Brandon:

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The Young Pyromancer

Theoretically, if the Dor-- ifSel became a Shard, would-- The biggest limiter on Shards is the Vessel's mind, would that be more limiting or less limiting?

Brandon Sanderson

...If the Dor were itself to become a Shard combining Devotion and Dominion, and were to pick up a Vessel? Because they're still Shards, they just don't have a Vessel.

The Young Pyromancer

So the land couldn't be Vessel?

Brandon Sanderson

The land itself? Of Arelon or of--

The Young Pyromancer

Of Sel.

Brandon Sanderson

The land of Sel would not count as a Vessel. You would say in terminology right now that Dominion and Devotion do not have Vessels in the same way that other Shards do.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

On the other hand, there is also this WoB:

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Questioner

Would it be possible for an inanimate object that was invested to the point of sentience Ascend to Shardhood?

Brandon Sanderson

To become a Vessel of Adonalsium, or become a Shard through...? This is a tricky question because the power left alone will become sapient. And at that point, the distinction between being a Shard and a Vessel is fine but still extant. And I would say the power could not become a Vessel in the same way because it's defined as something different. But it is possible for the power to be left alone and to gain sapience on its own.

Questioner

The example we were thinking of was Sel. It was stated in Arcanum that the landscape itself was invested to the point of.. Could the planet of Sel be the Vessel of Devotion?

Brandon Sanderson

At this point, it's playing semantics, and I would say no. But there are people in-Cosmere that would argue that the semantic distinction is irrelevant and that it is the same.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

So, Sel is getting more aware but it might be like a type-2 AI kind of aware rather than true sapience.

But who knows?

Fingers crossed for Cosmere's own Mogo! 

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I also think that if these objects like "the stick" have only reflections from people cognition, then how are they able to reply back anything to Shallan? There could be some sentience there..

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2 hours ago, Honorless said:

This topic has been discussed before, I'll copy my thoughts on that discussion to over here for the sake of expediency:

The Dor cannot gain consciousness because it is stuffed in the Cognitive Realm and Sel itself does not qualify as a vessel according to Brandon:

On the other hand, there is also this WoB:

So, Sel is getting more aware but it might be like a type-2 AI kind of aware rather than true sapience.

But who knows?

Fingers crossed for Cosmere's own Mogo! 

Ok thanx. Nations that truly actually exist. Wow. That's a great concept. Perhaps it is true. 

Or Maybe it's more like Gaia from the Foundation series. Basically there's a planet which is alive . It is one large organism with the non living matter and live inhabitants both serving as it's cells.

The main components are the ppl tho. All the individual consiousness are interconnected with each other. But Gaia is more than just the sum of the individual ppl. Just like how we are more than the collection of atoms we consist of. I mean , a corpse has just as many atoms as we living do yet it's obviously not the same as us . 

I haven't read the novel completely but Gaia has ambitions to become Galaxia. To spread to other planets and become a Galaxy spanning hyper-organism . I don't know if it's a good being or a bad one. I had jumped to one of the later books of the series and then decided to jump back after reading one chapter. Will reach it one day. 

But yeah Sanderson said he was inspired by the foundation series so maybe sel becoming sapient has it's idealogical roots in Gaia.

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2 hours ago, The traveller said:

I also think that if these objects like "the stick" have only reflections from people cognition, then how are they able to reply back anything to Shallan? There could be some sentience there..

Exactly . All tho maybe shallan made it up like how she made up radiant or veil. 

I doubt it tho. 

I think in the Cosmere , in the cognitive atleast, all objects have some sentience due to ambiant investiture seeping into matter. 

In planets like Roshar with the ongoing conflict of the shards , I think a lot of Shardic investiture has broken off and seeped into matter saturating it until they have sapience. 

In Sel the same has happened but perhaps as @Honorless  mentioned larger quantities of matter and more abstract concepts like nations , etc are coming alive. 

Like i understand the dor is bound to the CR. But what happens to the investiture released by magic users in the physical. Does it return to the dor ? 

Or does it saturate the matter.

Hmm this is the answer , the dor itself isn't gaining sentiance . It's a roiling plasma storm. But the small parts of it released by selish magic systems becomes free and not being commanded by a shard , remains free and seeps into matter supersaturating it.

Like on Scadrial u had preservation and ruin. The investiture even when released would eventually wind up back in the shards . In HoA , the burned atium was unaccessible by Ruin but he knew all of it would condense back into atium in a millennium. Even if ppl burned it again. Even if it was unaccessible to Ati/ruin himself. It was still part of him. It identitified as such . So only the ambiant investiture contributed in environ- awareness.

 

On roshar , honor is dead but large splinters like the stormfather and smaller ones like honorspren exist and most free investiture gravitates towards them . Most but not all. Hence u get greater awareness and even intelligence.

On Sel however there are  no vessels  and the dor is locked . So all the investiture once out of the cognitive is free to super-saturate matter. Hence u might get Gaia or a AI like intelligence or something.

Well ok this is my theory then. :rolleyes:

 

 

Edited by PrinceGenocide
A little polishing
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1 hour ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Hmm this is the answer , the dor itself isn't gaining sentiance . It's a roiling plasma storm. But the small parts of it released by selish magic systems becomes free and not being commanded by a shard , remains free and seeps into matter supersaturating it.

It actually is a new way of thinking about it, for a change.. 

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4 hours ago, The traveller said:

I also think that if these objects like "the stick" have only reflections from people cognition, then how are they able to reply back anything to Shallan? There could be some sentience there..

Well the thing is, it wasn't. That was Pattern "interpreting", and by interpreting I mean stating the stick's resistance to change. The stick does not want or feel or think, it's just a stick. 

2 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Hmm this is the answer , the dor itself isn't gaining sentiance . It's a roiling plasma storm. But the small parts of it released by selish magic systems becomes free and not being commanded by a shard , remains free and seeps into matter supersaturating it.

 

The state of the Investiture really doesn't matter. All Investiture, if left alone long enough, becomes sapient. The Dor is embedding itself in various areas of Sel and bringing them to life. It's sort of like Awakening

 

5 hours ago, Honorless said:

always thought those lines from Khriss might refer to the nations on Sel, not the planet itself. As in,  the nations are somehow beginning to differentiate between its own people and people from other nations

That doesn't really make sense... all nations do this? Why would Khriss remark that in such an odd way instead of saying "these nations are very isolationist" or something.

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On 11/5/2019 at 7:09 PM, Inky said:

That doesn't really make sense... all nations do this? Why would Khriss remark that in such an odd way instead of saying "these nations are very isolationist" or something.

She used the term 'landscape', not Shardworld, so I just took it to refer to something we've already seen happen rather than create a new theory.

As you said, all Investiture if left alone turns sentient but that is exactly why Odium stuffed D&D into the Cognitive Realm, which is region-locked. The magics are also region-locked, somehow differentiating between its own people and others. I just noted a correlation. I don't know about 'isolationism' though, the Shaod does take Dula & Teoish, not just Arelish.

Not an outright negation of the idea though, as you may note if you see the last WoB I linked.

@PrinceGenocide, Isaac Asimov is an inspiration for Brandon for linking together his books in one universe. The idea that he might also use his idea of Gaia isn't improbable.

Spoiler

Fainlife perhaps could result in something similar to Asimov's Gaia

These are some popular theories actually, look them up, I think you'll enjoy them.

Edited by Honorless
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1 hour ago, Honorless said:

She used the term 'landscape', not Shardworld, so I just took it to refer to something we've already seen happen rather than create a new theory.

As you said, all Investiture if left alone turns sentient but that is exactly why Odium stuffed D&D into the Cognitive Realm, which is region-locked. The magics are also region-locked, somehow differentiating between its own people and others. I just noted a correlation. I don't know about 'isolationism' though, the Shaod does take Dula, not just Arelish.

"Landscape", not nations or cultures. I don't think the entire planet is coming to life, but rather specific sections are all coming alive, and are different from other sections. So like, a living Arelon vs a living MaiPon. And just because Odium made the Dor to stop anyone from taking up the Shard, doesn't mean it worked. The Dor was Odium's first kill, and he's obviously refined his techniques. It's just... why mention something obvious about nations in an essay on planets and Realmatics? All nations differentiate between their people and other nations. That's how... nations work

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21 minutes ago, Inky said:

"Landscape", not nations or cultures. I don't think the entire planet is coming to life, but rather specific sections are all coming alive, and are different from other sections. So like, a living Arelon vs a living MaiPon. And just because Odium made the Dor to stop anyone from taking up the Shard, doesn't mean it worked. The Dor was Odium's first kill, and he's obviously refined his techniques. It's just... why mention something obvious about nations in an essay on planets and Realmatics? All nations differentiate between their people and other nations. That's how... nations work

I'm afraid I don't see the disagreement then. This is exactly what I said.

The Dor plan has worked so far, so what if there were better methods, as long as it works

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It's obviously not working, because Khriss is saying the magic is imbuing itself in the planet and coming alive

Quote

Indeed, I believe that the very landscape itself has become Invested to the point that it has a growing self-awareness, in a way unseen on other planets in the cosmere.

 

Edited by Inky
forgot quote
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It is working. Odium didn't want someone to take up the two Shards, done. Odium didn't want, what would come to be known as the Dor, to itself to gain sentience, done.

What is happening is something else entirely but not likely to result in an entity able to take Odium on. Either by the nation interpretation or the Shardworld interpretation since it would still be Physically locked in the Selish system, cut off from the Spiritual Realm.

Edited by Honorless
missing commas
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13 hours ago, Inky said:

It's obviously not working, because Khriss is saying the magic is imbuing itself in the planet and coming alive

 

Exactly. No one is gonna ascend and wield all the power. But the power is trickling out , a negligent quantity of it which is imbuing itself rather than be wielded by a single person. 

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13 hours ago, Honorless said:

It is working. Odium didn't want someone to take up the two Shards, done. Odium didn't want, what would come to be known as the Dor, to itself to gain sentience, done.

What is happening is something else entirely but not likely to result in an entity able to take Odium on. Either by the nation interpretation or the Shardworld interpretation since it would still be Physically locked in the Selish system, cut off from the Spiritual Realm.

Yup , honorless said it better than me. Yo honorless what do u think of my theory that the small amounts of power leaking from the dor and not the dor itself is gaining sentiance. 

It could revive ur alive nations theory right ?

Like the magic released in Maipon identifies itself as Maipon . 

Arelish magic imbues itself in the landscape of arelon and regards itself as Arelon and so on . 

 

Edited by PrinceGenocide
A little polishing
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I think this is actually working in reverse. The landscape itself is coming alive and the nation's themselves are conforming to preset borders. 

The nations are being formed to fit the mind they are connected to by birth, rather than the more natural borders being defined by the nations. 

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17 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Yup , honorless said it better than me. Yo honorless what do u think of my theory that the small amounts of power leaking from the dor and not the dor itself is gaining sentiance. 

It could revive ur alive nations theory right ?

Like the magic released in Maipon identifies itself as Maipon . 

Arelish magic imbues itself in the landscape of arelon and regards itself as Arelon and so on . 

 

"Leaking from the Dor" is not how I would put it, rather that region-locked due to the nature of the Cognitive Realm. Yes to the rest of it

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