Transportation in the Cosmere

[Pathfinder]

So given that there is still much debate on how transportation works on Roshar, I thought to list "transportation" and how it manifests across any magic systems and go over what we know and what we do not know. I will also tag @Karger and @The traveller  and  @Isilel   and @Calderis   and @Quantus  (I put a lot of ands and spaces because that seems to work to tag multiple people) to continue the discussion that started on the Peacetime Surgebinders thread because I mentioned that I thought an elscaller could do direct teleportation. So without further ado, here we go.

 

So it seems like we only have two planets so far that have power systems that involve "teleportation" (not counting perpendicularities created via Shards). We have Sel, and Roshar. I will discuss each, and include WoB (spoilered for sanity sake) regarding them. I will then for each put conclusions I think we can all agree with, and then conclusions that are currently being disputed. Then I think since we have all the information in one place to reference, we can discuss why we think things work one way or the other. 

 

Sel

Elantrian using Aon Tia

1. Provides instantaneous transfer of matter from one location to another (evidence, we literally see it occur in book via PoV of Raoden, and then the subsequent teleports)

2. Requires the user to draw the Aon correctly, and include proper modifiers (evidence, we literally see it occur in book via PoV of Raoden, and then the subsequent teleports)

3. These modifiers include direction, distance, and a rule brick to judge that distance (take Raoden's stride as unit of measurement. Distance is then however many Raoden strides to target location. evidence, we literally see it occur in book via PoV of Raoden, and then the subsequent teleports)

4. Aon Tia is still a relative gamble despite measurements and modifiers, or at least in Raoden's case it was. (evidence, WoB below)

 

Spoiler

 

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Sixty-Two - Part Two

Raoden's Teleportation

I had to work very hard to make this one work. I think it turned out, but it is a little bit of a stretch. Hopefully, readers will go with me on this one because of the climactic feeling of the near-ending.

Regardless, I do think I gave Raoden all the pieces he needed here. Adien always existed in the book for this one moment–to give Raoden the length measurement he needed to go try to save Sarene. I've established that seons have perfect senses of direction, and I've talked about how to use Aon Tia. More importantly, I think I've established that this is something that Raoden would do. He gets just a shade foolhardy when Sarene is concerned. (It's all her fault.)

There is another important element to this teleportation. I thought it important to involve deity in the climax of what has been such an overtly religious book. You may not believe in God, and it is never my intention to belittle your choices. However, the format of this book has been one that dealt with religion and the way that people interact with their faith. And so, I took this last moment of the book, and gave Raoden an opportunity to call upon the aid of providence.

Raoden arrives safely, despite the odds against his having gotten the distance, direction, and other factors right. You are free to simply think of this as luck, if you wish.

Elantris Annotations (May 12, 2006)

 

 

5. "Strength" of teleport  (like all aons) is reliant on proximity to Elantris. Raoden was able to teleport from Elantris to Teod, but once there was barely able to teleport ten feet. This is a continuous effect, and not because the power was just restored, because the same occured for Galladon and the other Elantrians. They were able to make the distance, but had to take the long way back. (evidence, we literally see it occur in book via PoV of Raoden, and then the subsequent teleports)

6. Aon Tia put into plates can be used to instantaneously transport from one end of the city to another repeatedly without drawing, or measurements required. (evidence, we literally see it occur in book via PoV of Raoden when he was a child, and Galladon's testimony)

7. Aon Tia fabrials can be made to (albeit weaker) teleport the user without needing to draw an aon (evidence, WoB below)

 

Spoiler

 

Blaze1616

Fabrials and AonDor. In Elantris you mention there’s Tia plates that let people teleport around the city. Could an Elantrian essentially make portable fabrials using a similar method as the Aon Tia plates?

Brandon Sanderson

*hesitantly* Yes, that is within the possibility of what it can do. The problem is the further you get from Elantris, the weaker the magic, so they’re going to be really limited in distance. But yes, totally could. And you could probably get them working through most of that region.

Shadows of Self Lansing signing (Oct. 13, 2015)

 

 

8. Aon Tia can theoretically teleport the user off world to another planet (evidence, WoB below)

Spoiler

 

Brightlord Maelstrom

Would there be a way that is reasonably feasible to use Aon Tia to teleport off-world?

Brandon Sanderson

Theoretically yes.

Brightlord Maelstrom

...Would there be a way to create it where instead of teleporting you directly there, it opens a portal?

Brandon Sanderson

We'll go ahead and start RAFOing at this point.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

 

Dakhor

1. Provides instantaneous transportation of matter from one location to another (evidence, we literally see it from Hrathen's PoV in the book)

2. Does not require modifications or calculations. (evidence, Hrathen's PoV. All that is required is the Dakhor monks in a circle, all remain stationary, Dakhor sacrifice in center, then activate while touching whatever they want to bring with them.)

3. Place of origin does not seem to matter. (evidence, the teleport originated in Elantris, and terminated in Teod. Hrathen mentioned Dilaf using a teleport to go from one part of the monastery to another part.  So it does not matter if the origin is Elantris, or a Dakhor monastery, it does not effect the "strength" of the teleport)

4. Teleportation functions off the loss of life (evidence, WoB below)

 

Spoiler

 

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Sixty - Part Three

Dakhor Magic

I actually didn't plan to use the "teleportation" aspect of the Dakhor magic. However, I wrote myself into this chapter, then suddenly realized that I needed to get the group Teod in a real hurry. I couldn't let days pass while Sarene, Hrathen, and Dilaf sailed to the peninsula as I'd originally intended. (I have no idea what I was thinking.) So, I added in teleportation. It ended up working out very well in the book, as it let me add another dimension to the Dakhor magic–that of having it cost a life to create some of its effects.

This, more than anything, should instill in the reader a sense of disgust regarding the Dakhor. I particularly like Hrathen's story about Dilaf making someone die so he could travel to a place fifteen minutes away. It characterizes Dilaf perfectly while at the same time giving a clue to how strict and obedient his order is. This isn't a group of people you want to mess with. It's the ultimate exaggeration of Derethi beliefs on loyalty and structure.

Elantris Annotations (April 15, 2006)

 

 

Roshar (I will do Oathgates first because we have more information on them, then transportation)

Oathgate

1. Provides instantaneous transportation of matter from one specific location to another (evidence, shown repeatedly from the end of Words of Radiance through all of Oathbringer as well as WoB below) 

 

Spoiler

 

CaptainRyan (paraphrased)

Are city Oathgates only capable of teleporting to Uruthiru or can they send people to any of the other Oathgates? E.g. Can you travel directly from the Oathgate in Stormseat to the Oathgate in Kholinar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

For now, they are only to Uruthiru.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

 

2. Oathgate travel, at this time, goes the speed of light (evidence, WoB below)

 

Spoiler

 

Questioner

You talked about Mistborn being the space traveler ones. I was wondering if you were going to utilize some of the speed bending into that, into the travel with it?

Brandon Sanderson

You will see what I do when I do that... The biggest problem is, for you physics majors, how we make sure that we're not breaking causality... So breaking causality is kinda my big no-no. For instance, I have right now that moving between Oathgates goes at the speed of light. But technically we still break causality, right, with Shadesmar stuff... But the issue--the way we can do it in Shadesmar is because it breaks causality, but there is so muc-- Like if you were able to go into Shadesmar, move at the speed of light, come out like, you could break causality but it's, in practice, impossible, because the difference is so slight.

We also break causality with the Spiritual Realm, but I can control that.

Questioner

Also you can just kind of like, mulligan that off.

Brandon Sanderson

...If we were having instant speed, communication and things like that... yeah if we have an ansible, that's how we're not breaking causality. How we're not doing the train thought experiment which breaks my brain...

So that's the big thing I have to worry about once we get to the Mistborn era, the space travel and stuff. Like, right now I don't break causality, or at least if I do, it is indiscernible to human ability to realize it. Once we get to actual space travel, and actual FTL, then I want to have rules in place, even if it is just like the rule for red shifts. On speed bubbles, where I say, "Yeah it just doesn't happen." Letting you know. But it would be no fun. Even if it's just that. But I at least want to have that in hand.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

 

ccstat

(written in book: Do oathgates obey physical realm speed-of-light constraints?)

Brandon Sanderson

(written in book: Nope! Good question.)

We are playing fast and loose with causality.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017)

 

3. Oathgates could potentially go to other planets (evidence, WoB below)

 

Spoiler

 

Questioner

Did humans come to Roshar through Shadesmar?

Brandon Sanderson

It is technology or magic closer to how the Oathgates work. But it was like that. It's not canon but right now that's what I have. It's not canon because there are certain things I have to work out before that can work...

By the way I'll just say to the tape recording that I haven't canonized, like for instance if they traveled to Shadesmar to get to Shinovar from Ashyn. Right now I have that not being via Shadesmar, but the mechanics of that might not work out, and I might have to default to Shadesmar. So there's certain things, you'll see, where I say, "This isn't the canon answer, it's where I have things right now."

Overlord Jebus

So Urithiru might end up being a spaceship after all.

Brandon Sanderson

It's not that. Right now I have them using something closer to Oathgating, but it opens up a huge can of worms, when I'm not requiring direct-- When I'm sending through Spiritual Realm it opens up cans of worms, and I have to just make sure the mechanics on that are tight before I do it.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

 

Questioner

Could they use [Oathgates] to teleport to different galaxies?

Brandon Sanderson

That is what we call a RAFO, which means Read And Find Out. *laughter*

Shadows of Self Lansing signing (Oct. 13, 2015)

 

 

4. Oathgate travel does not require any calculations or specific powers (other than a living shardblade and stormlight) to travel between set locations at this time (evidence, numerous PoVs in the books)

 

The Surge of Transportation (the main event, specifically what we know for sure first)

1. allows the user to transfer from the physical to the cognitive, and the cognitive to the physical. This requires stormlight to accomplish. A spren can pull their radiant through from the physical to the cognitive as long as the radiant has the stormlight to do so. It is easier to go from the physical to the cognitive, than the cognitive to the physical. A perpendicularity is not required as using the surge creates a miniature one(evidence, we have seen it occur with Jasnah in the deleted scene, as well as WoB below)

 

Spoiler

 

Questioner 1

How was Jasnah able to teleport into the [Cognitive] Realm when she didn't seem to have any Stormlight in her in Words of Radiance?

Brandon Sanderson

She had enough.

Questioner 1

She had enough. 

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Questioner 1

And is it just teleportation-- *interrupted*

Brandon Sanderson

Let's say... Jasnah's figured out some things that other's haven't figured out, for one thing. *brief interruption* And, let's say that. But also, there's a little scene from it I wrote from her viewpoint just to know what was happening that's never going in the books. If you Google "Jasnah deleted scene Words of Radiance" you can read it. It talks about how she did what she did.

Questioner 2

Oh good.

Brandon Sanderson

So that is out there. Just-- It was my reference for writing the scene. But-- One of her powers is called Elsecalling, which is basically popping in and out of Shadesmar more easily. It's hard for everyone else to do that.

Questioner 2

My other question is, so when Shallan was on the land she was in the sea in SHadesmar.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner 2

Is it exactly opposite?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, it's mirrored... Um... It's mirrored, yeah.

Questioner 2

So any land is on sea. So she would have actually landed on land on the ocean.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah... so... yes...

Questioner 1

She kind of *inaudible*

Questioner 2

Well that's, no for Jasnah that's... *interrupted*

Brandon Sanderson

Oh yeah yeah, Jasnah... In that scene where you see? She pops out in Shadesmar on the land.

Questioner 2

So, was the scene at the end right as soon as that happened?

Brandon Sanderson

What the-- no, no, no. She spent months trying to get back out.

Questioner 2

Oh, because she doesn't have the power to get back out.

Brandon Sanderson

Much harder to get back out.

Questioner 1

*inaudible* trying to get back out, because she doesn't have any more Stormlight.

Brandon Sanderson

Yep. Much harder to get back out than it is to get back in even if you have Stormlight, and she is out of Stormlight, so...

Footnote: Questioner mistakenly said "Cognitive Realm" in the first line.
White Sand vol.1 release party (June 28, 2016)

 

 

Questioner

Did Jasnah's body die, and she made a new one?

Brandon Sanderson

No, she actually transferred her body to the other side... I actually even wrote the scene where it happened, but I didn't end put it any books... That's what Elsecallers do, is they teleport. That's one of their things.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

 

Questioner

Can you tell me anything about the Elsecallers we don't know yet?

Brandon Sanderson

They should be able to get back out of Shadesmar without having to find a perpendicularity, but Jasnah doesn't know how to do it yet. She should be able to do that, she just hasn't figured it out.

Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019)

 

2. Transportation (at least for elsecallers) allows for travel to other worlds. (evidence, WoB below. In interest of full disclosure, WoB could mean that the elsecaller transfers to cognitive and then walks to another planet to "world hop". So not conclusively stating instant travel to other planets)

 

Spoiler

 

FirstSelector

Does Elsecallers-- Can they move without perpendicularities on other worlds?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh Elsecallers. Yes, they can.

FirstSelector

Yeah, we were considering *audio obscured* teleporting--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah this is-- This is the thing. Getting in and out-- off and on-- is not--

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

 

Ruro272 (paraphrased)

On a similar note, since Elsecallers can physically go to Shadesmar and have access to Transportation surge, can all Elsecallers worldhop?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, that is one of the Elsecaller powers.

Ruro272 (paraphrased)

In hindsight this seems like a really obvious question now *laugh*, but I think it's really interesting that Elsecallers can travel to other planets too--we didn't know that before.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There are hints in the names on the map of Shadesmar.

Minicon 2015 (April 2, 2015)

 

FirstSelector

Does Elsecallers-- Can they move without perpendicularities on other worlds?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh Elsecallers. Yes, they can.

FirstSelector

Yeah, we were considering *audio obscured* teleporting--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah this is-- This is the thing. Getting in and out-- off and on-- is not--

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

 

3. Transportation is not precise (evidence, WoB below)

 

Spoiler

 

Questioner

Is Jasnah still alive at the end of the book, since the whole scene where she kind of appears...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, she is.

Argent

*photo pause* Why does she take so long to come back?

Brandon Sanderson

Because Elsecalling is not precise even if you know what you are doing, which she doesn't.

Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014)

 

 

4. Transportation can be used on other people. Whether that means "force push" or "transport" the target person, is open to interpretation. Though I personally lean towards "transporting" the person (evidence, WoB below)

 

Spoiler

 

Questioner

So, Jasnah has the same shape appear around her as when she first appears out of Shadesmar at the end of that-- At the end of the second book, when she appears out of Shadesmar, she has the same shape appear around her as she does in the last battle, but we never see her do anything (this is about Transportation) And we saw people flying away beforehand. Can you-- Does Transportation allow you to push other people. Similar to Lashings, but kinda differently. I'm just wondering if you can use it on other people, basically? 

Brandon Sanderson

You can, but it's not what you’re thinking. 

Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)

 

 

 

Now the portion that is disputed (so statements will be made, but the assumption is they are all my personal interpretations, and can be freely disagreed with).

The surge of transportation can be used for instantaneous travel

1. The spren that Kaza sees when she soulcasts, is similar to the spren at the oathgate. As the only spren we know of that provides both the surge of transformation (soulcasting) as transportation, the assumption here is in both cases it is an Ink spren which are the spren of Elsecallers (WoB below)

 

Spoiler

 

Jofwu

In Kaza's interlude, she pulls out her Soulcaster and kind of describes, what seems like a presence of a spren that's there? Is that similar to the Oathgate spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, yes. Good job.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

 

 

2. The surge of transportation is the power by which the Oathgates are made. Oathgates mimic the surge of Transportation. So to me, if the oathgates are created via the surge of transportation, and are made to mimic the surge, then then the two should function the same. (WoB below)

 

Spoiler

 

Questioner 1

Can you tell us about Transportation? Is it like gates from Wheel of Time? 

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, Elsecalling? No. But-- but yes. 

Questioner 1

*laughter* I meant, like, the whole-- Just the Surge?

Questioner 2

Does it go to the Cognitive Realm, is that all it does? 

Brandon Sanderson

It is the power by which they created the Oathgates... So, there is a little more to it than that. But yes, it's basically-- yeah.

Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)

 

Boogalyhu34

Are oathgates fabrials that mimic the transportation surge? You have said that fabrials can copy all 10.

Brandon Sanderson

This is a valid line of reasoning, but I'm not going to say yes or no.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 15, 2015)

 

3. The surge of transportation can do more than just go between the physical realm and cognitive realm. (WoB below)

 

Spoiler

 

Questioner 1

Can you tell us about Transportation? Is it like gates from Wheel of Time? 

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, Elsecalling? No. But-- but yes. 

Questioner 1

*laughter* I meant, like, the whole-- Just the Surge?

Questioner 2

Does it go to the Cognitive Realm, is that all it does? 

Brandon Sanderson

It is the power by which they created the Oathgates... So, there is a little more to it than that. But yes, it's basically-- yeah.

Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)

 

 

4. Worldhoppers can teleport directly between planets. Elsecallers can world hop without perpendicularities. Although that does not necessarily mean that Elsecallers would teleport directly between planets, to me it is potentially possible. (WoB below)

 

Spoiler

 

Smolderwolf

Do worldhoppers in the cosmere teleport between planets, or physically travel the space between?

Brandon Sanderson

Both are possible.

Figment chat (Jan. 19, 2015)

 

 

 

So for all that, that is why I think the surge of transportation can provide direct teleportation between two locations. It requires stormlight, it is not precise (even if you know what you are doing), and is difficult without proper training. I liken this to the difference in soulcasting capabilities that we see between Jasnah and Shallan. Transformation is the Elsecaller's primary surge, while it is the secondary surge of Lightweavers. Shallan is far more proficient with illumination than she is with transformation. Renarin is far more proficient with progression than he is with illumination (yes his spren is corrupted, but I think he would still not be as proficient even if he was a normal truthwatcher). Lift is far more proficient with abrasion than she is with progression. Jasnah is far more proficient with transformation than she is with transportation. And finally I believe Venli will be far more proficient with transportation than with cohesion. I believe that because oathgates can do instant, then so should the surge they mimic and are based on. I also believe if instant transfer is possible in two other magic systems, then it would not be far fetched to believe the same could stand for the surge of transportation. 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Honorless]

Ah, I've talked about it before on the Shard, for the sake of expediency lemme just copy it over here: 

Quote

 

@The traveller, while teleportation is possible in the Cosmere, perhaps through some kind of fast travel network via the Cognitive Realm or straight up utilizing the Spiritual Realm where time and distance has no meaning, the Surge of Transportation shouldn't be able to do what you described by either the magic system in question or the narrative.

What would be required for teleportation? In real world, your body would be destroyed on one end and recreated on the other. Wormholes won't work (if they were to exist, they've been mathematically proven to be possible not necessary probable) because while they'll transfer matter to the other side, life requires some truly delicate handling to remain, well, alive.

Either method is doable in the Cosmere: Destroying a body and recreating the same body is possible via the use of Identity, maintaining the continuity of the subject's consciousness by them continuing to exist as a Cognitive Shadow.

The other method is, as I mentioned earlier, by establishing a method of fast travel through the Cognitive Realm. Not true teleportation in the sense of instantaneous travel between two points without having to traverse the distance between them but it sort of fits. Jasnah can do that. Anything more would require fabrials, and I think we've already seen the fabrials in question, the Oathgates.

The third is through the Spiritual Realm, though we have no proof if it can be done.

⚠ Aether of Night ⚠

Spoiler

That book does have an example of some form of near-instantaneous travel. It is not true teleportation either though, because the distance between the two points is being traversed, just really really fast. Possibly within the Physical Realm itself.

The first method might be how the Heralds travel between Roshar and Braize (Damnation), it could also be by simply walking through the Cognitive Realm. The Fused do something similar too, except instead of a recreating their previous body, they just body-jack other Singers.

In conclusion, teleportation might require something akin to what Dalinar did at the end of Oathbringer, which is already far beyond the purview of even the Bondsmiths (he could only do that because Stormfather became the Cognitive Shadow of Honor)

Narratively, that kind of diminishes the importance given to Oathgates.

Also, one has to remember that the spren aren't dæmons like in 'His Dark Materials' trilogy. They are sapient beings independent of their Radiants. Radiancy isn't just a Radiant's magic, it's an alliance between humans and spren, though a very intimate one. We saw with the records of the ancient Radiants that politics and trade with the spren was an important part of the Elsecallers' duties. They have a very important Surge with Transportation, which they utilise to fulfill a crucial role. Teleportation, on the other hand, is a "niche" that has been already filled by the Oathgates.

Quote

the Elsecallers' role then, was taken up by an Order of Knights Radiant not just a Surgebinding Order, keeping in mind that the former is as much a socio-political institution as it is a group of people with a certain skillset. This is demonstrated here:

As to the other orders that were inferior in this visiting of the far realm of spren, the Elsecallers were prodigiously benevolent, allowing others as auxiliary to their visits and interactions; though they did never relinquish their place as prime liaisons with the great ones of the spren; and the Lightweavers and Willshapers both also had an affinity to the same, though neither were true masters of that realm.

—Words of Radiance, chapter 6

Plus, once political connection has been established, sending a different party to maintain diplomatic relations seems suboptimal.

This kind of diplomacy may become necessary again as the Stoneward spren, Willshaper spren (Spark is an outlier) and Ashspren in particular still harbour dislike towards humans for the Recreance.

 

Update:

Spoiler

Brandon intends for the method via which the Ashynites arrived on Roshar to be Oathgate equivalent, he intends for the transportation to have occurred via the Spiritual Realm

So, the Oathgates don't directly transport people straight through the Spiritual Realm. It might still (in fact it probably will) still involve utilizing Spiritual attributes though.

Whether the Surge of Transportation's equivalent fabrial are the Oathgates is a RAFO

To note, the Expanses were mapped via Elsecalling by Elsecallers and Willshapers (who wants worldhopper Jasnah?)

Edited November 4, 2019 by Honorless
sorry about the formatting, I don't know how the spoiler went within another spoiler tag

[Aon Tia]

@Pathfinder very well articulated post.. 

I agree with you 100%. 
I think it is made quite clear that Surge of transportation will allow teleportation via CR. Jasnah has already done it but it can be made to work in a way that it is almost instantaneous travel which for people in PR will look like disappearing in one place and immediately appearing in the other. Brandon has also confirmed that oathgates work on the principal of surge of transportation. 

@Honorless your concern regarding the transfer of matter has been now addressed the OP has posted the wob mentioning that Jasnah was able to transfer her body to the CR. It was not destroyed and was not needed to be remade. 
 

I do believe now, after a lot of discussions on other threads, that transportation will work via CR on Roshar but since it is going to happen at near light speed, for all intents and purposes, it will appear instantaneous in PR. 
 

and as discussed before, dalinar summoning perpendicularity is not easy and is very taxing on him, so we can rule it out. 
 

Also, the reason why elsecallers got the job for primary liaisons with sprens over willshapers is because both their surges heavily involve either travelling to CR or looking into it. 
 

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by The traveller

[Pathfinder]

19 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Ah, I've talked about it before on the Shard, for the sake of expediency lemme just copy it over here: 

Update:

  Reveal hidden contents

Brandon intends for the method via which the Ashynites arrived on Roshar to be Oathgate equivalent, he intends for the transportation to have occurred via the Spiritual Realm

So, the Oathgates don't directly transport people through the Spiritual Realm

 

So, my personal reasoning is that we know:

1. elsecallers create mini perpendicularities (WoB below)

Spoiler

 

Questioner

Is there any way it's possible that somebody could have gotten to the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial without the Well of Ascension?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

And can we know how?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, how many Shardpools would Scadrial have?

Questioner

Two, so the Pits of Hathsin would be so? That's what I theorized.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. So you've adopted the term "Shardpool". That was never really my term, but I've started using it. What happens with a perpendicularity is large concentrations of Investiture, particularly purely attuned to one of the Shards, will create an access point. You've seen another one in--

Questioner

Yeah, yeah I know these.

Brandon Sanderson

You know which one I'm referencing?

Questioner

Yes.

Brandon Sanderson

That you didn't see a Pool from?

Questioner

Oh wait--

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, he knows, so… We'll move on. *general outcry* Okay, fine. Umm, at the end of Words of Radiance.

Argent

There has to be one there because Jasnah has to leave somehow, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but Honor's Perpendicularity moves.

Questioner

Woah...so...Highstorm?

Brandon Sanderson

*makes non-committal noises*

Questioner 2

Kind of related to that, I don't know if this is a RAFO kind of question, but you call them perpendicularities, are we going to see this sort of thing created? Could there be, like--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, perpendicularities can be created. You'd need a lot of Investiture, right? You'd need a ton of Investiture. But, basically what Jasnah does is create a little mini perpendicularity, right? And slips herself into the Cognitive Realm.

Questioner 2

So it's just a question of skill, not a question of--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. It's hard to pull off, but some of the powers are built to do it.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

 

2. a perpendicularity is using investiture to punch a hole through all three realms

Spoiler

 

Questioner #1

So we know how some people can enter Shadesmar, or the cognitive realm, how do other places, like- we haven't seen anything for the Mistborn series. Do we know how they can enter.

Brandon Sanderson

Read Secret History.

Questioner #1

I did read that, but it didn't really say much besides that one special case.

Brandon Sanderson

Right, Hoid talks about Perpendicularities on Scadrial, if you go look at that there are certain places he talks about that. Let's just say that large concentrations of Investiture will cause a puncture through the spiritual realm straight to the physical realm, that if you know how to use it, you may transition. That's not the only way but is the primary way.

Questioner #1

And of course you can Soulcast [Elsecall?] to get there.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner #2

Now that's a very interesting analogy you just made, you said "punctured" almost as though it were a spike.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes, that was intentional.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

 

3. the spiritual is all places and all times at once

Spoiler

 

Ironeyes

So, uh, we know that the charcoal creatures are afraid of coins.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Ironeyes

So are the white chalk creatures, which I think are called Shadowblazes…

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Ironeyes

Are they also afraid of coins?

Brandon Sanderson

Are they also afraid of coins? To a much lesser extent. Um, I can give you guys some backstory on this. What’s going on here is that the place these things come from, um, linear structure and things like this are frightening to them, like they come from a non-linear location. Time does not move linearly where they come from. When they come into this world, structure and linear time progression, is bizarre to them. And there are some who have embraced it, and been like, “This is cool and different!” and there are others that are still terrified of it, as a representation of what is so alien from the world they came from. So that’s why we’ve got this whole clocks, and even structure, as a metaphor for, um, something that is terrifying to them.

Uh, Rithmatist started in the Cosmere. The magic shares a lot of its roots, then, in Cosmere magic worldbuilding. I split if off because I wrote the whole first book with it being in the Cosmere. I split it off, saying “No, I don’t want Earth to be in the Cosmere.” Even an alternate version of Earth. It just raises too many questions about the nature of Earth being involved in this. I want the Cosmere to be its own dwarf galaxy of which not even a dimension of Earth is involved. And when I made that decision, I broke Rithmatist off. That’s the only one I had written that didn’t belong, but it still has, so, it means that the magic is going to feel very familiar to you, uh, it’s going to feel like the magic of a, um, of the Cosmere. And Cosmere magic is based around, usually, human beings making a symbiotic bond with an entity made out of the magic. This is, kind of, one of the origins of Cosmere magic, and Rithmatist has, therefore, its roots in that. I’ve done some things since I’ve split it off in the outlines to distinguish it, but it’s going to have the same roots. So you’ll notice some things like that, that are similar.

Questioner

Uh, before you split The Rithmatist from the Cosmere, did the Shadowblazes come from the Cognitive realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Yeah, the Shadowblazes were in the Cognitive realm, they’re--you know, well, they’re more Spiritual realm. They were Spiritual realm, sorry. They were Spiritual realm entities that got pulled in, uh, to the Physical realm. And the Spiritual realm has no time, um, it exists independent of time and location, all times and all places are one, and so, uh, when something that’s from the Spiritual realm got pulled into the Physical realm, it was like, “This is so weird!” Um, and there are very few things in the Cosmere that exist only on the Spiritual realm, which was a really fun thing I could do with this book, was show that. Cause most things exist on all three realms. Um, so, yeah. So, yeah, I mean if you’ve got, if you’re a Cosmere, uh, theologian--not theologian, magic, uh, what do you call it? Uh, they call that, uh, I have a word for it in-world. But anyway, if you’re a realmatic theorist, you can kind of pick out how the Spiritual realm beings were related, originally, to the realmatic theory.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017)

 

 

 

So, my understanding of it, is there wouldn't be a "destruction" of self to instantaneously transport between locations. The elsecaller is using the surge of transportation to punch a hole through all three realms to access the spiritual realm. Since the spiritual realm is all places and all times at once, you don't even have to "fold" space. Technically where you enter the spiritual realm is also where you exit the spiritual realm, since its all the same place and time, just where you come out (cognitive or physical) is different. I think what we have seen so far, is only partial use of transportation. Like what happened with Sja-anat and the oathgates. Instead of fully transporting kaladin and co, they were shunted to the cognitive realm. 

18 minutes ago, The traveller said:

@Pathfinder very well articulated post.. 

I agree with you 100%. 
I think it is made quite clear that Surge of transportation will allow teleportation via CR. Jasnah has already done it but it can be made to work in a way that it is almost instantaneous travel which for people in PR will look like disappearing in one place and immediately appearing in the other. Brandon has also confirmed that oathgates work on the principal of surge of transportation. 
 

Thank you! 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Honorless]

That's just one method, I did note travel via Shadesmar as a possible alternative method, which I didn't exactly consider to fit within the parameters of teleportation. In fact, I also noted that the first method is also possible in the Cosmere, on Roshar itself.

I don't know if Elsecalling will allow for visiting the Spiritual Realm, but if it does that would certainly qualify as teleportation

The post isn't an outright rebuttal, only observations, though I do express which side of the argument I lean on

Edited November 4, 2019 by Honorless

[Pathfinder]

4 minutes ago, Honorless said:

That's just one method, I did note travel via Shadesmar as a possible alternative method, which I didn't exactly consider to fit within the parameters of teleportation

I don't know if Elsecalling will allow for visiting the Spiritual Realm, but if it does that would qualify as teleportation

Right, basically that was the point of this thread. Is I am asserting that the surge of transportation can allow a radiant to instantaneously teleport between two locations. Potentially the way they do so if via the spiritual realm. The transfer between physical to cognitive, and cognitive to physical is just something along the process that they can do. Basically what I am saying is you can build and program a robot to swim. If the system glitches, it could potentially just float. We are shown a person can float. To me that does not mean they can only float, especially if the programmed robot was meant to emulate a person. I am saying a person can choose to swim, or choose to float. That we have just seen humans float so far, does not preclude them from being able to swim. 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Honorless]

Another thing in regards to Elsecallers:

Quote

The Elsecallers had the Surge of Transformation as well as Soulcasting, which allowed them to view the Cognitive Realm while leaving their Physical body behind. I would count it as another eg of complimentary Surges (same as Lightweavers' "solid illusions" and Dustbringers' friction+division), it might've been beneficial for scouting the area of the Cognitive Realm where they intended to go before Transporting there, an edge that Willshapers didn't have.

Didn't add it via edit to previous comments due to it not being directly relevant to the proposed theory, but a potentially interesting thing to note about Elsecallers

[Aon Tia]

I was restricting to PR to CR and then back to PR with some near light travel in CR but 

if they create mini perpendicularity.... that is more interesting... 

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Transformation is the Elsecaller's primary surge, while it is the secondary surge of Lightweavers. Shallan is far more proficient with illumination than she is with transformation. Renarin is far more proficient with progression than he is with illumination (yes his spren is corrupted, but I think he would still not be as proficient even if he was a normal truthwatcher). Lift is far more proficient with abrasion than she is with progression. Jasnah is far more proficient with transformation than she is with transportation. And finally I believe Venli will be far more proficient with transportation than with cohesion. I believe that because oathgates can do instant, then so should the surge they mimic and are based on. I also believe if instant transfer is possible in two other magic systems, then it would not be far fetched to believe the same could stand for the surge of transportation. 

I have always believed that each order has one primary surge which they get sooner and are more proficient at. But, surge of gravity alone does not fit. Both Windrunners and Skybreakers seem to master gravity first..

Edited November 4, 2019 by The traveller

[Honorless]

I think primary Surges were not so much inherent to the Orders but simply a natural result of their respective Spren being attracted to specific kinds of people (artists and Illumination) as well as the fact that the Knights Radiant were an Organization with delegation of duties (Elsecallers: diplomatic delegation to the far realm of spren)

In the case of Elsecallers specifically, Elsecalling is the name by which the process of utilizing the Surge of Transportation was referred to.

And honestly, I feel like Soulcasting is naturally difficult for most people in both Orders and Jasnah just makes it look like it's that easy

[Pathfinder]

17 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Another thing in regards to Elsecallers:

Didn't add it via edit to previous comments due to it not being directly relevant to the proposed theory, but a potentially interesting thing to note about Elsecallers

True, true. I think that is a large part of (like you said), why the Elsecallers seemed to be the primary liaisons. They have multiple ways of accessing/manipulating the realms. 

14 minutes ago, The traveller said:

I have always believed that each order has one primary surge which they get sooner and are more proficient at. But, surge of gravity alone does not fit. Both Windrunners and Skybreakers seem to master gravity first..

So the biggest wrench in it, is as you said Kaladin, but also Dalinar. So we know via WoB (which may take me some time to find due to the wording), but Brandon's intention of doing things that way (primary surge, then secondary surge), is to introduce the magic gradually instead of overwhelming the reader with new powers. Now whether or not Kaladin and Dalinar break this. When Kaladin was first running bridges, he unknowingly used a reverse lashing to attract the arrows towards his hands, away from his body so he would not be killed from the arrows. That is gravitation. However, when we first see him consciously use his surge and learn, he uses adhesion to stick the stones to the wall to climb. It is later after seeing Szeth that he learns how to manipulate gravitation, and it takes him some time to get used to it. Theoretically Dalinar used tension unconsciously when the the chasmfiend attacked, and he held his glowing armor together. Next we see Dalinar stick a chair to the wall, and be able to speak different languages through spiritual adhesion. But I feel the first time we really see Dalinar use his abilities with purpose is when he puts the temple back together, which theoretically is tension, which would be his primary surge. I think Dalinar learned and used adhesion seemingly first, because he had Kaladin to emulate. Same thing with Shallan. She had Jasnah to watch, which is why she tried transformation first even though the surge was over her head. Kaladin leaned towards gravitation because he saw Szeth using it a lot. But the use capability, I believe still keeps with primary surges. I think a skybreaker can use basic and reverse lashings more skillfully than a windrunner. We just think windrunners can because they are coupling it with adhesion (atmospheric pressure) to get greater reactions. 

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

4. Oathgate travel does not require any calculations or specific powers (other than a living shardblade and stormlight) to travel between set locations at this time (evidence, numerous PoVs in the books)

In theory the spren could be doing calculations.  We know that there are two of them and that they are huge.

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

In interest of full disclosure, WoB could mean that the elsecaller transfers to cognitive and then walks to another planet to "world hop". So not conclusively stating instant travel to other planets)

That was my interpretation.

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

4. Transportation can be used on other people. Whether that means "force push" or "transport" the target person, is open to interpretation. Though I personally lean towards "transporting" the person (evidence, WoB below)

Elsecalling in this section likely refers to the specific to and from shadesmar travel that gives Elsecallers their name(they are known to be the best at this).  I theorized that this could be due to the fact that the relationship between both realms is not one to one.

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

4. Transportation can be used on other people. Whether that means "force push" or "transport" the target person, is open to interpretation. Though I personally lean towards "transporting" the person (evidence, WoB below)

As a person who has studied physics to closely I would like to point out that velocity and position can sometimes be considered the same thing.  I believe Jasnah added a few m/s to those people and that is what sent them flying.

[Pathfinder]

10 minutes ago, Honorless said:

I think primary Surges were not so much inherent to the Orders but simply a natural result of their respective Spren being attracted to specific kinds of people (artists and Illumination) as well as the fact that the Knights Radiant were an Organization with delegation of duties (Elsecallers: diplomatic delegation to the far realm of spren)

In the case of Elsecallers specifically, Elsecalling is the name by which the process of utilizing the Surge of Transportation was referred to.

And honestly, I feel like Soulcasting is naturally difficult for most people in both Orders and Jasnah just makes it look like it's that easy

Part of another theory I have, goes hand in hand with primary/secondary surges. For instance we know there are fabrial soulcasters that are either limited to soulcasting one specific thing (such as bronze), or capable of multiple transformations. I theorize that surge fabrials are made when they take a radiant spren of a certain oath level, after their radiant dies without breaking the oaths, and it voluntarily bonds the fabrial. So the further along in oaths the spren was when bonded to the fabrial, the more powerful the fabrial. The type of spren also effects the power of the fabrial. So taking a cryptic to make a soulcaster fabrial would be more limited than taking an ink spren to make a soulcaster fabrial. It certainly seems that a radiant spren can be used to power either surge they provide depending on the fabria (ink spren with the soulcaster fabrial with kaza, and the ink spren with the oathgate seen by Shallan)

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

In theory the spren could be doing calculations.  We know that there are two of them and that they are huge.

Theoretically yes, but fabrials are a computer programmed to draw a circle over and over again. The fabrial was already programmed to go to a certain location and only those programmable locations. Calculations would not (to me) need to be made brand new every single time. All the calculations are already programmed into it. 

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

That was my interpretation.

Personally I disagree, but as I acknowledged, it is open to interpretation. 

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

Elsecalling in this section likely refers to the specific to and from shadesmar travel that gives Elsecallers their name(they are known to be the best at this).  I theorized that this could be due to the fact that the relationship between both realms is not one to one.

So to prevent further confusion (just in case), to clarify there are two instances people think of when regarding this WoB. There is:

1. Jasnah shoves a soldier. As he flies back, he transforms into crystal. He hits another soldier, than soldier flies back as if with the full momentum of the initial shove from Jasnah while he turns into crystal as well. To which he hits a third and does the same. 

and or

2. Adolin is in the city looking for everyone. A body comes flying out of an alley. He assumes it is a flying fused and gets ready to fight, only for the body to smash into a wall, and he sees Jasnah standing, with geometric shapes fading away. 

 

In number 1, people theorize that Jasnah used transportation to transfer the full inertia from her initial push, through the subsequent targets. That led people to theorize that when the body went flying by Adolin (number 2), it was Jasnah doing that trick again, potentially creating inertia, like a force push effect. Others theorize number 2 was Jasnah manifesting her plate and just bodily throwing the person, and then dismissing the plate which Adolin sees the after effect. The WoB seems to say (to me) that you can use the surge of transportation on someone (like with lashings), but it will not manifest as the person is positing (the force push). Which is why I think he meant that you could touch someone and teleport them elsewhere. 

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

As a person who has studied physics to closely I would like to point out that velocity and position can sometimes be considered the same thing.  I believe Jasnah added a few m/s to those people and that is what sent them flying.

Personally I disagree. I read that WoB as saying, it does not function like a "force push". Added to that is the WoBs that @RShara and @Calderis reference in the past that lend them to believe it is her manifesting her plate. I will need a moment to pull those WoB up, as well as the fabrial being a computer that draws a circle well. 

[Honorless]

We don't know how Soulcasters are made. The material they can Soulcast and the material that they can Soulcast the aforementioned material into seem to be a function of their inset gemstones by virtue of the Ten Essences.

[Pathfinder]

15 minutes ago, Honorless said:

We don't know how Soulcasters are made.

Right, which is why I said it is a theory of mine. In that situation I do not have much to back it up, otherwise I would be posting WoB for that. 

Quote

The material they can Soulcast and the material that they can Soulcast the aforementioned material into seem to be a function of their inset gemstones by virtue of the Ten Essences.

But Shallan, as well as Kaza, and I believe three other instances, we get testimony of in world characters saying some soulcasters for instance can only soulcast bronze, and that is all. Other soulcasters can soulcast grain only. Other soulcasters can soulcast only smoke. Finally there are rare soulcasters that can soulcast multiple items such as fire, crystal, and smoke. Even rarer still are soulcasters that could soulcast any of the ten essences. 

So what I mean is, there are soulcasters that if you put an emerald in it, nothing will happen because that particular soulcaster only soulcasts bronze, so will need a topaz. Another soulcaster if you put a ruby in it, will not function because it only soulcasts grain, so an emerald is required. Other soulcasters can do both grain, and bronze, but put a sapphire in there and nothing will happen because it cannot soulcast air. I was theorizing on why that is. 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

30 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

2. Adolin is in the city looking for everyone. A body comes flying out of an alley. He assumes it is a flying fused and gets ready to fight, only for the body to smash into a wall, and he sees Jasnah standing, with geometric shapes fading away. 

I am thinking of this one.

31 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Personally I disagree. I read that WoB as saying, it does not function like a "force push". Added to that is the WoBs that @RShara and @Calderis reference in the past that lend them to believe it is her manifesting her plate. I will need a moment to pull those WoB up, as well as the fabrial being a computer that draws a circle well. 

It is not really a force push.  That is like getting hit with a wave.  It is more like getting catapulted.  Your speed instantaneously changes to a different speed the same way your position changes to a different position.

[Pathfinder]

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

I am thinking of this one.

It is not really a force push.  That is like getting hit with a wave.  It is more like getting catapulted.  Your speed instantaneously changes to a different speed the same way your position changes to a different position.

Brandon is hedging, though some believe this hints that the reason the body got thrown was from shardplate

 

Questioner

It's very subtle, but at the end of Oathbringer, when Jasnah goes to find Shallan on the battlefield, she goes to grab Shallan, Shallan's over here as Radiant. She has Shards *inaudible*?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a Read and Find Out. I'm being very coy on Shardplate, even though you have seen characters with it in the books before. Because I want to wait until I can do some reveals in viewpoint character.

I will tell you this: You have indeed seen people with Shardplate multiple times in the books. Or at least, the soon aftermath of someone.

FanX 2018 (Sept. 6, 2018)

 

So the "soon after" portion I do not believe is Dalinar, as we the "matrix" develop on him. So we did not just catch "the after effect" of it. We more seemed to catch the 
"pre-" effect of it. Then there is Shallan and Jasnah. Shallan had multiple illusions and people disagree on whether or not the plate was real when the "Radiant" persona was touched by Jasnah. Jasnah is the only one that seems like "something" was fading away which seems to coincide with this WoB. Add to this we know via another WoB that Brandon believes Jasnah is as far, or further in oaths than Shallan, would imply Jasnah should have her plate already. 

That is the reasoning at least. 

[Calderis]

I mean... I don't see why this is really up for debate. Like I said, I think it would be expensive, and if it isn't possible for a Surgebinder it would be a prohibitive cost problem, not a surge capability. 

Teleportation in the Cosmere is not motion. It's realmatic transition. You open a small perpendicularity and merge the realms... And you open a second small perpendicularity through the Spiritual Realm that exits to a different location in the Physical and Cognitive. 

It's using the Spiritual Realm to fold space. 

The fact that this is how Brandon wants the Ashynites to have reached Roshar seems like confirmation that it should be possible. 

Quote

Questioner

Did humans come to Roshar through Shadesmar?

Brandon Sanderson

It is technology or magic closer to how the Oathgates work. But it was like that. It's not canon but right now that's what I have. It's not canon because there are certain things I have to work out before that can work...

By the way I'll just say to the tape recording that I haven't canonized, like for instance if they traveled to Shadesmar to get to Shinovar from Ashyn. Right now I have that not being via Shadesmar, but the mechanics of that might not work out, and I might have to default to Shadesmar. So there's certain things, you'll see, where I say, "This isn't the canon answer, it's where I have things right now."

Overlord Jebus

So Urithiru might end up being a spaceship after all.

Brandon Sanderson

It's not that. Right now I have them using something closer to Oathgating, but it opens up a huge can of worms, when I'm not requiring direct-- When I'm sending through Spiritual Realm it opens up cans of worms, and I have to just make sure the mechanics on that are tight before I do it.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

It would be very very easy to impose limitations on this through cost, and requiring Connection to the place you wish to exit. But I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be possible. 

[Lunu’anaki]

6 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

 

So, my understanding of it, is there wouldn't be a "destruction" of self to instantaneously transport between locations. The elsecaller is using the surge of transportation to punch a hole through all three realms to access the spiritual realm. Since the spiritual realm is all places and all times at once, you don't even have to "fold" space. Technically where you enter the spiritual realm is also where you exit the spiritual realm, since its all the same place and time, just where you come out (cognitive or physical) is different. I think what we have seen so far, is only partial use of transportation. Like what happened with Sja-anat and the oathgates. Instead of fully transporting kaladin and co, they were shunted to the cognitive realm. 

Thank you! 

This makes too much sense to be wrong. I think that's exactly what happened and the only if/and or buts are how expensive it is to accomplish, and if Jasnah is even going to be capable of pulling it off at all. It might be that her Transportation surge only allows for CR transfer while a Willshapers might allow for full teleportation.

[Honorless]

6 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

But Shallan, as well as Kaza, and I believe three other instances, we get testimony of in world characters saying some soulcasters for instance can only soulcast bronze, and that is all. Other soulcasters can soulcast grain only. Other soulcasters can soulcast only smoke. Finally there are rare soulcasters that can soulcast multiple items such as fire, crystal, and smoke. Even rarer still are soulcasters that could soulcast any of the ten essences. 

So what I mean is, there are soulcasters that if you put an emerald in it, nothing will happen because that particular soulcaster only soulcasts bronze, so will need a topaz. Another soulcaster if you put a ruby in it, will not function because it only soulcasts grain, so an emerald is required. Other soulcasters can do both grain, and bronze, but put a sapphire in there and nothing will happen because it cannot soulcast air. I was theorizing on why that is. 

Oh I didn't see it that way! I thought that was a function of the gemstones but what you said makes much more sense with what we've seen. Thanks!

[Aon Tia]

5 hours ago, Lunu’anaki said:

It might be that her Transportation surge only allows for CR transfer while a Willshapers might allow for full teleportation.

I doubt that. It might be easier for a willshaper to work it out, it being their primary surge.. but i think both orders will be able to work it out.

If there really are mini-perpendicularity involved, then cost is going to the main inhibition here which will prevent it from being Super OP.

@Pathfinder thanks for the ideas on the primary vs secondary surges, I did not take into account how szeth influenced kaladin's view of his surges and nudged him towards and expertise in gravity whereas consciously he had used adhesion first, i like it. 

10 hours ago, Karger said:

In theory the spren could be doing calculations.  We know that there are two of them and that they are huge.

i dont think any fresh calculations are needed for oathgates to function between the 10 cities, but if a new city with a new oathgate were to be added in the future then we will need to do the calculations and program them accordingly anew. but i do not see that happening anytime in the near future, may be around mistborn era 3 time, Rosharans will have the tech to work it out.

I also do not think that any calculations will be needed by the radiants if we are creating mini-perpendicularities to the SR and using Connection to the desired destination.

   

[Calderis]

38 minutes ago, The traveller said:

doubt that. It might be easier for a willshaper to work it out, it being their primary surge.. but i think both orders will be able to work it out.

Why do we think it will be their primary surge? Their name is literally "Willshaper" that screams Cohesion like lightweaver does Illumination. 

I don't think there is a "primary" surge for the orders honestly. I mean... If it were always the counter-clockwise on the wheel, then Dalinar should have used the hell out of Tension and all we've seen from him so far is Adhesion. 

I think every order is going to have people better at different aspects, and times where an order is ridiculously good at one or the other it should be a factor of their resonance, like the Lightweavers mnemonic device facilitating their illusions... 

But if an order is going to be the better of the two at Transportation I'm going to give it to Elsecallers. It's literally the name of their order. 

 

[Lunu’anaki]

39 minutes ago, The traveller said:

I doubt that. It might be easier for a willshaper to work it out, it being their primary surge.. but i think both orders will be able to work it out.

You're probably right, but I think if this Primary/Secondary thing is true then surges must operate differently for different orders in some capacity. We already know this is true for Bondsmiths as the stormfather outright clarifies it with Dalinar multiple times. I don't think Bondsmiths are a special case. I think it has something to do with the interactions between surges.

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, Lunu’anaki said:

You're probably right, but I think if this Primary/Secondary thing is true then surges must operate differently for different orders in some capacity. We already know this is true for Bondsmiths as the stormfather outright clarifies it with Dalinar multiple times. I don't think Bondsmiths are a special case. I think it has something to do with the interactions between surges.

And I very much think that Bondsmiths re a special case. The spren they bind, their limited number, their lack of shards. 

The only people we've seen so far who have any difference between their surge use and their neighboring orders are Dalinar, a Bondsmith, and Renarin... And Renarin has plenty of reasons to be different. 

[Lunu’anaki]

21 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Why do we think it will be their primary surge? Their name is literally "Willshaper" that screams Cohesion like lightweaver does Illumination. 

I don't think there is a "primary" surge for the orders honestly. I mean... If it were always the counter-clockwise on the wheel, then Dalinar should have used the hell out of Tension and all we've seen from him so far is Adhesion. 

I think every order is going to have people better at different aspects, and times where an order is ridiculously good at one or the other it should be a factor of their resonance, like the Lightweavers mnemonic device facilitating their illusions... 

But if an order is going to be the better of the two at Transportation I'm going to give it to Elsecallers. It's literally the name of their order. 

 

I agree, I don't think "Primary surge" is actually a real thing. Some individuals may have an affinity for one or the other but I don't think it's order specific.

16 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And I very much think that Bondsmiths re a special case. The spren they bind, their limited number, their lack of shards. 

The only people we've seen so far who have any difference between their surge use and their neighboring orders are Dalinar, a Bondsmith, and Renarin... And Renarin has plenty of reasons to be different. 

I think that the way surges interact with eachother will cause variation. Not limiting one's abilities with a singular surge, but instead providing the surgebinder with methods of using both surges to create various effects that another order would be incapable of. (See: Shallan's "Physical Illusions" in the battle of Theylen Field, Dalinar's ability to fix broken objects, etc.)

That being said, it leads me to believe that "Elsecallers" have a more Cognitive Realm focus to their transportation surge, due to their affinity with the cognitive realm in the Transformation Surge, while (if our 3-realm theory here is correct) Willshapers might have an easier time with teleportation due to the cohesion surge supporting a 3-realm shift rather than a 2-realm one, because, well... that's just cohesive.

That's not to say Elsecallers will be incapable of instant teleportation if it is possible. Just that Willshapers might have an easier time wrapping 3 realms around their surge than an Elsecaller might.

as a side note: Elsecaller would make plenty of sense as a name granted to people who are often traveling/bringing people to a strange realm full of orb-oceans and giant spren as well, so I'm not sure their name changes anything either way. 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Lunu’anaki

[Aon Tia]

43 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Why do we think it will be their primary surge? Their name is literally "Willshaper" that screams Cohesion like lightweaver does Illumination. 

I don't think there is a "primary" surge for the orders honestly. I mean... If it were always the counter-clockwise on the wheel, then Dalinar should have used the hell out of Tension and all we've seen from him so far is Adhesion. 

I think every order is going to have people better at different aspects, and times where an order is ridiculously good at one or the other it should be a factor of their resonance, like the Lightweavers mnemonic device facilitating their illusions... 

But if an order is going to be the better of the two at Transportation I'm going to give it to Elsecallers. It's literally the name of their order. 

 

By primary surge, what i essentially believe is that the system of oaths is set in a way that 1 surge is mastered first and then as you progress beyond 3rd oath, you become more proficient at the second too. Although you had access to both surges from the beginning. As @Pathfinder has already pointed out that there are exceptions like Dalinar because he has seen kaladin do some adhesion or he has been told by kaladin what adhesion is. So, he knows about it and since his perception matters, as wobs suggest, so he is doing adhesion first. he can not do tension because he has not seen it, till that vision. Kaladin was doing adhesion untill he saw Szeth and then devoted most of his energies into learning gravity.

 It is possible that Jasnah is just more proficient at Soulcasting and it is not an order-wide thing.. but it could be too. Elsecallers may be named such because they were the prime liaisons to CR and not because they were more proficient at transportation than willshapers...