Lunu’anaki

speculation
Adonalsium and how he may have tricked the Shards

67 posts in this topic

So heres a weird thing I've been thinking of:

What if the Shards are just heavily invested by Adonalsium and he tricked them into thinking that they killed him? ...hear me out.

It could be that Adonalsium foresaw a tragic occurrence befalling the cosmere and knew that there would be some sort of effort to shatter him or steal his power. Maybe he glimpsed the best possible future as being one where he invested 16 specific individuals heavily and convinced them that they, together, held all of his power... while in fact his true power is infinite and hiding in the spiritual realm, hidden from the shards.

My only "evidence" for this is when Sazed said he cannot see Vin or Elend in “the place beyond” which makes me think that maybe none of the shards can see into the spiritual realm or into certain parts of it, like where souls go when someone dies.

So... that hardly counts as evidence... and this hardly counts as a theory... but I find it interesting as a possibility and would love to hear what anyone else thinks about this idea.

Edited by Lunu’anaki
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1 hour ago, Lunu’anaki said:

So heres a weird thing I've been thinking of:

What if the Shards are just heavily invested by Adonalsium and he tricked them into thinking that they killed him? ...hear me out.

It could be that Adonalsium foresaw a tragic occurrence befalling the cosmere and knew that there would be some sort of effort to shatter him or steal his power. Maybe he glimpsed the best possible future as being one where he invested 16 specific individuals heavily and convinced them that they, together, held all of his power... while in fact his true power is infinite and hiding in the spiritual realm, hidden from the shards.

My only "evidence" for this is when Sazed said he cannot see Vin or Elend in “the place beyond” which makes me think that maybe none of the shards can see into the spiritual realm or into certain parts of it, like where souls go when someone dies.

So... that hardly counts as evidence... and this hardly counts as a theory... but I find it interesting as a possibility and would love to hear what anyone else thinks about this idea.

The Beyond actually isn't the Spiritual Realm. The place where Vin and Ruin were in HoA is basically the Spiritual Realm. The Beyond is something Beyond the Realms, that the Shards can't touch, and that Brandon is never going to confirm as a real place or not. It's basically up to the individual or the philosophers to decide, like a Cosmere Heaven.

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30 minutes ago, RShara said:

The Beyond actually isn't the Spiritual Realm. The place where Vin and Ruin were in HoA is basically the Spiritual Realm. The Beyond is something Beyond the Realms, that the Shards can't touch, and that Brandon is never going to confirm as a real place or not. It's basically up to the individual or the philosophers to decide, like a Cosmere Heaven.

That place! If Adonalsium created it.. maybe he did, maybe he didn't. Why wouldn't he be hiding himself and his power there? It's what I would do if I were god :-P

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The Beyond is something Brandon never plans to cover, or prove it if exists. But he does focus on Adonalsium, so I doubt he's going anywhere Brandon isn't

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45 minutes ago, Lunu’anaki said:

That place! If Adonalsium created it.. maybe he did, maybe he didn't. Why wouldn't he be hiding himself and his power there? It's what I would do if I were god :-P

Well, but as I said, Brandon's never going to confirm or deny the existence of the Beyond. So Adonalsium hiding out there wouldn't work out.

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1 minute ago, RShara said:

Well, but as I said, Brandon's never going to confirm or deny the existence of the Beyond. So Adonalsium hiding out there wouldn't work out.

Oh! I see. I stupidly didn't draw that conclusion last time you said it. I assume he's said that at some point. Well, there goes my theory! Thank you though. I'll have to come up with a better method for Adonalsium or drop the idea all together.

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I don't see why Adonalsium couldn't have foreseen his Shattering. It's a fairly popular theory that he let it happen, right alongside re-combining all the Shards being Hoid's ultimate goal.

Him still being alive is new though.

Nothing to definitively say whether or not Adonalsium is dead aside from Khriss' words. We'll have to wait for Dragonsteel to release before any more conjecture, I think.

@RShara, do we have any confirmation on Adonalsium's nature? Whether he was more of a force or a being? I understand that with Brandon's choice of words "...killed him" and the WoB that Investiture left alone may gain sentience, that Adonalsium probably was a being, but last we heard from Khriss that was just conjecture.

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14 minutes ago, Honorless said:

I don't see why Adonalsium couldn't have foreseen his Shattering. It's a fairly popular theory that he let it happen, right alongside re-combining all the Shards being Hoid's ultimate goal.

Him still being alive is new though.

I absolutely believe that Adonalsium saw the Shattering coming, and for whatever reason, having some grand plan, being alien enough to not care about death, or whatever else definitely think he let it happen... 

And most haven't theorized that he still lives because we've been told the reason for the Shattering was his death. 

Quote

imriel452 (Paraphrased)

I asked for "Info on why Adonalsium shattered".

Brandon Sanderson

Adonalsium Shattered because he was killed.

General Signed Books 2016 (Feb. 1, 2016)

 

17 minutes ago, Honorless said:

@RShara, do we have any confirmation on Adonalsium's nature? Whether he was more of a force or a being? I understand that with Brandon's choice of words "...killed him" and the WoB that Investiture left alone may gain sentience, that Adonalsium probably was a being, but last we heard from Khriss that was just conjecture

Adonalsium created the Rosharan system "with a specific purpose" and has repeatedly been referred to as "he." 

As it stands, I definitely think it was a being, and the most debate I've seen is on whether Adonalsium was a developed mind like a spren, or had a Vessel (I believe the former, and believe that ripping that being apart without a Vessel to separate from the power is actually the source of the intents). 

There has been a lot of theorizing about the potential of Adonalsium's Cognitive Shadow though, which personally, with how I view his development, I don't think is possible... 

There's so much mystery around Adonalsium though, that it's really all headcanon at this point. 

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8 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I absolutely believe that Adonalsium saw the Shattering coming, and for whatever reason, having some grand plan, being alien enough to not care about death, or whatever else definitely think he let it happen... 

And most haven't theorized that he still lives because we've been told the reason for the Shattering was his death. 

 

Adonalsium created the Rosharan system "with a specific purpose" and has repeatedly been referred to as "he." 

As it stands, I definitely think it was a being, and the most debate I've seen is on whether Adonalsium was a developed mind like a spren, or had a Vessel (I believe the former, and believe that ripping that being apart without a Vessel to separate from the power is actually the source of the intents). 

There has been a lot of theorizing about the potential of Adonalsium's Cognitive Shadow though, which personally, with how I view his development, I don't think is possible... 

There's so much mystery around Adonalsium though, that it's really all headcanon at this point. 

I've always been in the sentient Investiture camp too :D

It's just recently that I've begun to seriously consider the other possibility. Specifically, in regards to 

Spoiler

The God Beyond

I've started to wonder if this mysterious figure might turn out to be Adonalsium's Cognitive Shadow...

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22 minutes ago, Honorless said:

I've started to wonder if this mysterious figure might turn out to be Adonalsium's Cognitive Shadow...

I'm going to have to give that one a no... 

Spoilered for length 

Spoiler

Both the Beyond, and the God Beyond, are things that Brandon has said he will never intentionally confirm or deny out of respect for the beliefs of his readers. 

Quote

Questioner

After people die, in this universe, where exactly do they go? Because, at first they appear in this one world, and then they go somewhere else.

Brandon Sanderson

So where do people go when they die. *laughter* In the cosmere. One of the things that's very important to me as a writer, when I am writing stories, is when we get to these kind of fundamental questions about faith and religion and things like this, that the narrative is allowing multiple characters' viewpoints to be plausibly true, if this makes sense. For instance, I am not gonna come out and say, "Is there a capital-G God of the cosmere, is there an afterlife?" These are not questions I'm gonna answer, because in-world, they can't answer them. What they can say is, your Investiture will leave what we call a Cognitive Shadow, which is an imprint of your personality that can do certain things. And that most of those fade away, and you can see them, glimpse them, and then watch them go. But, are they going somewhere? Or are they not? Is that simply the Investiture being reclaimed, Is it more of a Buddhist thought, where your soul is getting recycled and used again? Is it nothing, you return to, you know, being-- yeah, is it a different type of matter? Or is there a Beyond, is there a capital-G God? Things like this. These questions are not answered. I'm never gonna answer those.

Now, the characters will try to answer them. But it's important to me that both Dalinar and Jasnah can exist in the same universe, and that the story is not saying "This one is right, and this one is wrong." The story is saying "This is how this one sees the world; this is how this one sees the world." It's very important to me from the beginning to do that, just because-- Like, I hate reading a book where someone espouses my viewpoint only to get proven wrong by the entire structure of the narrative, and in that universe, that person is wrong. But I'm like, "In our universe, I don't think that I am. Just the way you constructed everything makes it so that I have to be wrong, if I were living in your universe, even if it's a universe that's not a sci-fi/fantasy one." If that makes sense.

This is just kind of for respecting my characters and for the people who hold the viewpoints of my characters, in particular if they happen to be different from my own viewpoints. I feel there are certain lines I'm not gonna cross.

So, the answer is: who do you believe? Which of the philosophies in the books do you look at and say "Yeah!" Or, even better: listen to lots of different ones, and maybe these different viewpoints are all gonna have interesting points that'll give you things to think upon.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

 

 

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This is from Ym's interlude, i find it of some relevance here, seeing as the topic is about if Adonalsium let himself be shattered....

Quote

Long ago, there was only "One". One knew everything but had experienced nothing. And so the One became Many in order to experience all things. As each experience is different, it brings completeness to the One. Eventually, all will be gathered back in when the sum of land is attained and they will once again become One. 

 

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5 hours ago, Calderis said:

I'm going to have to give that one a no... 

  Reveal hidden contents

Both the Beyond, and the God Beyond, are things that Brandon has said he will never intentionally confirm or deny out of respect for the beliefs of his readers. 

 

 

Spoiler

The God Beyond is the Cosmere's equivalent of Capital-G God?

I thought it was the mysterious force being manifest that Khriss refers to. Something that worldhoppers or the more Cosmere-aware might know of. I think that the God Beyond might be something more tangible since the Threnodites, Wayne and Shai refer to it. Do we have confirmation that the Beyond and the God Beyond are related?

I also suspected the involvement of this mysterious force with what Dalinar experienced, "source of warmth" and that one vision.

Edited by Honorless
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28 minutes ago, Honorless said:
  Reveal hidden contents

The God Beyond is the Cosmere's equivalent of Capital-G God?

I thought it was the mysterious force being manifest that Khriss refers to. Something that worldhoppers or the more Cosmere-aware might know of. I think that the God Beyond might be something more tangible since the Threnodites, Wayne and Shai refer to it. Do we have confirmation that the Beyond and the God Beyond are related?

I also suspected the involvement of this mysterious force with what Dalinar experienced, "source of warmth" and that one vision.

I think that the bright light and source of warmth may be different from God beyond. It could be the remnant of Honor merged with Stormfather or may be Tanavast cognitive shadow that dalinar is perceiving..

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33 minutes ago, The traveller said:

I think that the bright light and source of warmth may be different from God beyond. It could be the remnant of Honor merged with Stormfather or may be Tanavast cognitive shadow that dalinar is perceiving..

That seems beyond improbable. Honor is dead and his Cognitive Shadow merged with The Stormfather. The Stormfather denies his involvement in sending any new vision.

It could be another Shard being very subtle. We do know Shards can cause similar feelings: from the eternity that Preservation exuded, the burning of Odium, the inevitability of Ruin, but most closely the warmth of Endowment when she offers the choice to Return.

Not suggesting that it's Endowment. It might be Cultivation but I dunno.

Edited by Honorless
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@Honorless Well if it is not god beyond, then it is most likely one of the other two messing with dalinar 

since you are rejecting my idea of tanavast CS.. 

I really don’t think a fourth shard is involved here.. wait.. although now that I think about it, I am down for it being autonomy. bright light, warm feeling... 

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1 minute ago, The traveller said:

@Honorless Well if it is not god beyond, then it is most likely one of the other two messing with dalinar 

since you are rejecting my idea of tanavast CS.. 

I really don’t think a fourth shard is involved here.. wait.. although now that I think about it, I am down for it being autonomy. bright light, warm feeling... 

Spoiler

Because of her sun?

 

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6 minutes ago, Honorless said:
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Because of her sun?

 

Yes bright light warmth all make me think of sun..  autonomy does like to interfere

Edited by The traveller
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13 hours ago, Calderis said:

I'm going to have to give that one a no... 

Spoilered for length 

  Hide contents

Both the Beyond, and the God Beyond, are things that Brandon has said he will never intentionally confirm or deny out of respect for the beliefs of his readers. 

 

 

THAT is beautiful and I appreciate Brandon so much for doing this for us.

11 hours ago, Honorless said:

It might be Cultivation but I dunno.

It makes sense to me that it would be Cultivation considering her link with Dalinar. I have a feeling that Cultivation is going to play a major role in Dalinar's story moving forward.

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3 hours ago, Lunu’anaki said:

I have a feeling that Cultivation is going to play a major role in Dalinar's story moving forward.

I have always thought that she is done with dalinar.. that she will now focus more on her other pawns on the chess board, like taravangian and lift..

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19 minutes ago, The traveller said:

I have always thought that she is done with dalinar.. that she will now focus more on her other pawns on the chess board, like taravangian and lift..

Really? I'd be surprised if that's the case.

Well.. to clarify, I'd be surprised if what she's already done to Dalinar did not come into play heavily throughout the rest of the series. I think her touch on him has more to it than just what we saw in Oathbringer and I have a feeling that it's about more than just being able to capture that Unmade.

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3 hours ago, Lunu’anaki said:

Really? I'd be surprised if that's the case.

Well.. to clarify, I'd be surprised if what she's already done to Dalinar did not come into play heavily throughout the rest of the series. I think her touch on him has more to it than just what we saw in Oathbringer 

May be.. But how i see it is, that she took his memories - boon, kinda and then gave them back to him one by one slowly at the right time- bane. All of this, so he gets the capability to become a better version of himself- cultivating him in a desired direction, which led him to get the actual Boon - forgiveness, that he originally asked for !

I do not think she did anything more to Dalinar at that moment. She was extremely cautious and knew she might be handing over a powerful weapon to Odium. 

Whether now, that Dalinar has passed his ultimate test with regard to Odium, now, she will re-acquaint herself with Dalinar, May be..

But what she did to him in the valley in that one visit, i dont see anymore consequences from that.  

 

3 hours ago, Lunu’anaki said:

I have a feeling that it's about more than just being able to capture that Unmade

I think capturing unmades is a power that every Bondsmith possesses e.g. BAM was trapped by melishi.

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6 minutes ago, The traveller said:

May be.. But how i see it is, that she took his memories - boon, kinda and then gave them back to him one by one slowly at the right time- bane. All of this, so he gets the capability to become a better version of himself- cultivating him in a desired direction, which led him to get the actual Boon - forgiveness, that he originally asked for !

I do not think she did anything more to Dalinar at that moment. She was extremely cautious and knew she might be handing over a powerful weapon to Odium. 

Whether now, that Dalinar has passed his ultimate test with regard to Odium, now, she will re-acquaint herself with Dalinar, May be..

But what she did to him in the valley in that one visit, i dont see anymore consequences from that.  

I'm not so sure the effects of her touch don't play into other things as well.

I see what you're saying though. It's a complete cycle. But since she's succeeded do you think she will just leave him alone? I get the vibe that Cultivation is going to want something out of him now that she's put him in position to fight Odium effectively.

9 minutes ago, The traveller said:

I think capturing unmades is a power that every Bondsmith possesses e.g. BAM was trapped by melishi.

Yes. probably. maybe...

But Dalinar was able to do it specifically because he got his memories back and was able to take the Thrill in and not succumb to it. That only happened because of the effects of her touch.

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15 minutes ago, Lunu’anaki said:

But since she's succeeded do you think she will just leave him alone? I get the vibe that Cultivation is going to want something out of him now that she's put him in position to fight Odium effectively.

Now. yes most definitely.. She might start something new. but that valley visit i think has concluded nicely...

 

16 minutes ago, Lunu’anaki said:

But Dalinar was able to do it specifically because he got his memories back and was able to take the Thrill in and not succumb to it. That only happened because of the effects of her touch.

Lol.. agreed but too indirect a connection though.. Then everything that he does or has done, can be credited to her meddling. He was able to do it because

 a. taravangian talked to him and told him how spren are captured in fabrials and

b.  i assume that he knows the contents of gem archive and figured about BAm and melishi, not sure though...

and c. this is something that bondsmiths can just so.. so he figured it out instinctively..

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6 minutes ago, The traveller said:

 

Lol.. agreed but too indirect a connection though.. Then everything that he does or has done, can be credited to her meddling. He was able to do it because

 a. taravangian talked to him and told him how spren are captured in fabrials and

b.  i assume that he knows the contents of gem archive and figured about BAm and melishi, not sure though...

and c. this is something that bondsmiths can just so.. so he figured it out instinctively..

Okay, Okay. I see your point. ;)  I don't see much of a problem with everything he does being credited to her meddling though. She is a shard who can see the future afterall. 

 

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11 minutes ago, Lunu’anaki said:

Okay, Okay. I see your point. ;)  I don't see much of a problem with everything he does being credited to her meddling though. She is a shard who can see the future afterall. 

 

haha.. point conceded..  

She does deserve credit for Dalinar though..

Behind every successful man there indeed is a woman, or shard or both..:D

Edited by The traveller
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