Ascended

Different blades

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So if there are shard blades could there be void blades?

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It is possible but unknown at this point. If Voidbinding works like Surgebindeing (bonding a Spren) then yes you could absolutely pull the Void Spren into the Physical Realm thus making a Shardblade. If not then probably no. 

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I don't know if it's confirmed, but theoretically, yeah. 

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Shardblades are the spren of a radiant brought into the physical world. No Spren therefore means no Shardblade. So really we have to first work out do Fused have Spren and as a sign of this do they have a Nahel Bond.

 Now we never see a Fused interact with a Spren that seems bonded to them. We have seen them have interactions before with Spren but these seem to be "free" Spren bonded to no individual. An easy example is Hariel's encounter with Ulim. In fact Ulim himself is an interesting example as he never seemed bond to anyone and the same goes for the Spren guiding Sah. She never seemed bonded to any Fused or any of the Parshmen she was leading either. Fused for the most part seem to lack any sort of Spren to guide them or that they are bonded with. We've never seen a Fused Spren duo that is consistent.

Looking at where they gain investure also gives clues. Radiants gain Investure from the external source of Stormlight by using the Nahel bond. How Fused get it is unknown but it is clearly not from some external source such as Stormlight. Voidlight appears to not be able to be put into spheres, a fact Dalinar notes himself.

Quote

[The Everstorm] did not recharge spheres, even if you left them out during the entire Everstorm.

- Oathbringer chapter 4 pg 54 UK edition

Also we never see the Fused with spheres either they seem to merely posses it. It seems also implied Odium is the one supplying them it directly.

Quote

Odium smiled. "You will follow me, Turash, or I will reclaim that which gives you persistent life."

 - Oathbringer chapter 118 pg 1131 UK edition.

Additionally but less concrete is Dalinar's vision when looking into the Everstorm in relation to the Fused/Parshmen.

Quote

And vast seas of glowing red eyes, coming awake like spheres suddenly renewed with Stormlight.

- Oathbringer chapter 4 pg 54 UK edition

 From this description it seems there is no external source of investure for the Fused. Rather they just become invested themselves from it.

It seems under this Voidlight functions less like Stormlight but more along the lines of how magic in Mistborn works. As a result there is no need for a Name Bond and as a result of that no need for a Spren to bond.

 From there I think it is safe to conclude that the fused can't gain Shardblades. At least not in a method that we already know about.

Edited by Debarra
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5 hours ago, Dancer said:

It is possible but unknown at this point. If Voidbinding works like Surgebindeing (bonding a Spren) then yes you could absolutely pull the Void Spren into the Physical Realm thus making a Shardblade. If not then probably no. 

We don't know if humans can bond Voidspren permanently (beyond a temporary emotional state). Why doesn't Moash/Vyre attract any Voidspren? Also, Singers are a very interesting case: do spren need to leave their gemhearts to become Shardblades? If Timbre did it, it would set the imprisoned Voidspren free.

2 hours ago, Kon-Tiki said:

Isn't naginata-Glys exactly that?

He still counts as a true Spren, even if corrupted. Or at least I would assume so.

2 hours ago, Debarra said:

It seems under this Voidlight functions less like Stormlight but more along the lines of how magic in Mistborn works. As a result there is no need for a Name Bond and as a result of that no need for a Spren to bond.

The Fused are located in the dead Singer's gemhearts and are affected by the Oathpact. For all we know, they probably can be considered Vodspren at this point.

Edited by KandraAllomancer
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49 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

The Fused are located in the dead Singer's gemhearts and are affected by the Oathpact. For all we know, they probably can be considered Vodspren at this point.

 Based of my current understanding the Fused are cognitive Shadows meaning which is distinct from a Cognitive Shadow. A Spren is a piece of investure that primarily resides in the Cognitive realm given salience by humanities thoughts whilst a Cognitive Shadow is someone's mind persisting after death by imprinting on investure. It's a small distinction but still one all the same.

 Nevertheless though they still could effectively just be Spren by this stage. It doesn't seem like they actually bond with the Singers though but rather posses them. The singers actually die in the process as Ulim tells us in Interlude I-6. As such it's not a bond between them and the Singer.

 Either way though we reach the same conclusion. They can't make Voidblades. 

Also I happened upon this which further gives evidence that they have no bond. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/362-skype-qa/#e11156

Quote

WeiryWriter

Do the Fused still require a bond with a spren for maintaining a form/full sapience, or does the Investiture that makes them Cognitive Shadows fulfill that requirement?

Brandon Sanderson

They do not require a bond with a spren, so yes, the Investiture handles all of that.

 

Edited by Debarra
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We haven't seen Voidbinding yet so we don't know. The Fused aren't Voidbinding, there are multiple threads on that, go check them out and various rest of the examples we've seen of Odium's Investiture is lesser Voidspren (Forms of Power) and the Unmade (corrupted spren of Sja-Anat, all Surges by Yelig-Nar, Thrill by Nergaoul)

But we do know that the mechanics do allow for this to happen. Brandon did say that Seon and Skaze can be used as Shardblade equivalent if they had something more pulling them into the Physical Realm.

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1 hour ago, Honorless said:

We haven't seen Voidbinding yet so we don't know.

Agreed. 

Also, fused have not bonded any spren. I see them more of herald equivalent, where also there was no spren bond.

Any forms of power that singers get, i believe comes from lesser voidspren, no shardblades possible here either. And Renarin has bonded a corrupted spren but his shardblade looks perfectly normal, so, i don't think that it is a voidblade at all.  Plus, it works oathgates which i don't think a voidblade should be able to do..

What I am extremely curious to see is, if, the truer voidspren like ulim, yixli etc can form something similar to nahel bond? (the mechanism of that would be very different, seeing as they will not care about oaths, instead emotions/passions) but could there be a bond between them and humans.. why not? what type of bond will that be? if it is possible, why is there none as of now? and will that grant the human voidblades?

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5 hours ago, The traveller said:

and will that grant the human voidblades?

The basic problem isn't even if this could happen, but if this would ever happen. Shardblades ultimately stem from Honor's idea of Honorblades. I can't see how Voidspren would want to follow this particular example.

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@KandraAllomancerWould not the enemy want an answer to shardblades regardless if they are modeled after honors idea of honor blades?

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2 hours ago, Ascended said:

@KandraAllomancerWould not the enemy want an answer to shardblades regardless if they are modeled after honors idea of honor blades?

For one, Odium didn't create Odiumblades (as far as we know), even if these would be extremely useful to his cause.

Some spren refuse to become Shardblades outright (Stormfather) or are rather hesitant about it (Wyndle). I would assume this is much more common in Voidspren, as they probably can't see humans and singers as anything else than useful tools.

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5 hours ago, KandraAllomancer said:

For one, Odium didn't create Odiumblades (as far as we know), even if these would be extremely useful to his cause.

The reason I think that voidblades have not been formed yet is because I believe, as I have argued before, that voidbinding may be something difficult to achieve and to build the strength enough that spren is that strongly pulled into the PR to form a blade.  It requires a desired mental state attuned to odium’s passions instead of oaths. But human emotions are variable. How do you keep someone feeling same all the time. May be tough for odium to do it from Braize. 
 

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8 hours ago, The traveller said:

But human emotions are variable. How do you keep someone feeling same all the time.

I absolutely agree with this.

8 hours ago, The traveller said:

May be tough for odium to do it from Braize. 

Honorblades predate Odium's imprisonment, so he had a chance to create Odiumblades. We have no proof that he did.

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1 hour ago, KandraAllomancer said:

Honorblades predate Odium's imprisonment, 

Is it so? Is there any wob you are basing this on? because i thought he had already been imprisoned even before he created fused. Imprisoned as in that he is Roshar system locked and he can not escape until honor (or may be cultivation) releases him... 

Oathpact led to Honorblades, but, Oathpact was about imprisoning the fused. I think there is some relation between the two imprisonments of the Odium and fused, but is there any confirmation that both happened at the same time or that odium was trapped later? 

1 hour ago, KandraAllomancer said:

he had a chance to create Odiumblades. We have no proof that he did.

Do you think that Honor creating honorblades is basically him splintering himself?

Spoiler

In a similar manner as to how wobs say that edgli is doing at Nalthis when she creates returned... 

 If that is so, then may be odium did have the opportunity but does not want to splinter himself even the tiniest bit to create odiumblades on the same lines of Honorblades. He is the broken one as it is, from the various shard-altercations, may be he fears/knows that doing so, will weaken him and is not worth the advantage it will gain him!

Also, what do you think of the Blade used to kill Jezerein, Do you think it qualifies for being an Odiumblade? Do you think what happened at the battle for Thaylen City, finally forced odium to create an Odiumblade..? 

Edited by The traveller
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4 hours ago, The traveller said:

Is it so? Is there any wob you are basing this on? because i thought he had already been imprisoned even before he created fused. Imprisoned as in that he is Roshar system locked and he can not escape until honor (or may be cultivation) releases him... 

Yeah, you're right, I was thinking about the Oathpact. My mistake

4 hours ago, The traveller said:

Do you think that Honor creating honorblades is basically him splintering himself?

Yes

4 hours ago, The traveller said:

 If that is so, then may be odium did have the opportunity but does not want to splinter himself even the tiniest bit to create odiumblades on the same lines of Honorblades. He is the broken one as it is, from the various shard-altercations, may be he fears/knows that doing so, will weaken him and is not worth the advantage it will gain him!

I absolutely agree

4 hours ago, The traveller said:

Also, what do you think of the Blade used to kill Jezerein, Do you think it qualifies for being an Odiumblade? Do you think what happened at the battle for Thaylen City, finally forced odium to create an Odiumblade..? 

I think it's rather something like Odium's take at Hemalurgy, but the metal used in the blade seems to be Rayseium, so there are some similarities to Honorblades.

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1 hour ago, KandraAllomancer said:

 

I think it's rather something like Odium's take at Hemalurgy, but the metal used in the blade seems to be Rayseium, so there are some similarities to Honorblades.

I agree.. 

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I feel like noting that the fused were shocked to see Voidspren bonding humans in Thaylen city, as was Shalash. Neither knew that that was possible. Which suggests that that's not what Voidbinding is. So it might be theoretically possible to summon a Voidspren as a blade, as far as we know that's never happened. Unless you count Glys as a Voidspren.

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19 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

the fused were shocked to see Voidspren bonding humans in Thaylen city, as was Shalash. Neither knew that that was possible. Which suggests that that's not what Voidbinding is

Then what was it according to you?
they were shocked is the exact reason I thought it is voidbinding. They have not seen it before, Since fused are not voidbinders, forms of power are not voidbinding and Renarin also is the first of its kind and they do not even know about him. 

21 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

Unless you count Glys as a Voidspren.

I don’t. He is a cultivation spren that has been corrupted but I would not count that as him being a void spren. He is of neither. Like Renarin...

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Voidbinding is something that's existed in the past in some form- legends about it exist, even if they are vague. Voidspren bonding humans is something that had never been seen before Thaylen city. Khriss writes about it having ten levels and being a cousin to the Old Magic, but that she doesn't know much about how it works, which doesn't make any sense is the first Voidbinder ever is just starting to figure out his powers in the same time frame.

Which leads to believe that we haven't actually seen true Voidbinding yet. I've seen some theories about what it might be that I find plausible- specifically, I like the idea that it's something you gain access to by giving Odium your passion and letting his Investiture fill the resulting gap in your soul- but I don't think we can say anything more specific than 'Voidbinding is a magic system linked to Odium' with any degree of certainty. 

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Just gonna leave this here in case this becomes relevant, but there is an odd coincidence regarding one of the Honorblades.

Jezrein's Honorblade was the first to grant the Surges of Adhesion and Gravitation. Jezrein himself was known as the king of kings, and the attributes of Leadership and Protectiveness became the Divine attributes of the Windrunners later.

So it's almost karmic that long after his fall from grace, his Honorblade was used to destroy and assassinate leaders all over the world. Now it rests in the hands of someone who has killed two kings.

It almost makes me want to ask - can Honorblades be corrupted?

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5 hours ago, Gilphon said:

Which leads to believe that we haven't actually seen true Voidbinding yet. I've seen some theories about what it might be that I find plausible- specifically, I like the idea that it's something you gain access to by giving Odium your passion and letting his Investiture fill the resulting gap in your soul- but I don't think we can say anything more specific than 'Voidbinding is a magic system linked to Odium' with any degree of certainty. 

That is exactly what I said...

@TheFoxQR interesting question.. But since the honorblade has no sentient spren associated with it, I find it hard to believe that it can be corrupted, it is a tool which can be used for good or bad.. depending on who possesses it.

Edited by The traveller
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6 hours ago, The traveller said:

I don’t. He is a cultivation spren that has been corrupted but I would not count that as him being a void spren. He is of neither. Like Renarin...

He is technically not a cultivation spren.

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1 hour ago, Karger said:

He is technically not a cultivation spren.

The point is that he is not a void spren.. Do you disagree with that?

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3 minutes ago, The traveller said:

The point is that he is not a void spren.. Do you disagree with that?

No.  But Cultivation spren form Edgedancers not Truthwatchers.  He is a Truthwater spren.  We don't know their name.

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