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The Unmagics of Roshar


asmodeus

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10 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And so could the Unmade. 

I think that Yelig-nar's ability to access ten Suges is by stealing them (from Rosharan spren? from his victims?), but this such a RAFO  territory that anything is possible.

10 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Which is also why I think it was considered "seditious" to speak of expanding the order of Bondsmiths beyond three members. 

I usually see this as a purely religious issue. Ardents condemning heretical ideas about the doctrine on the nature of their gods (similar to Holy Trinity in Christianity or oneness of God in Islam). I like to think there were some precedents to Dalinar's situation. But, once again, very hard to say for sure.

10 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I for one, really hope to a see a Sja-anat Bondsmith. 

I don't think this could happen, but if it did, I would be pleasurably surprised.

Edited by KandraAllomancer
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27 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

I usually see this as a purely religious issue. Ardents condemning heretical ideas about the doctrine on the nature of their gods (similar to Holy Trinity in Christianity or oneness of God in Islam). I like to think there were some precedents to Dalinar's situation. But, once again, very hard to say for sure.

Vorinism as we know it didn't develop until after the fall of the radiants. We don't know that ardents even existed back then. The talk of expanding the order being seditious is speaking of the time at which Radiants were normal, and well before the recreance as in order to have talk of expansion, you actually have to be capable of hitting the limit. 

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26 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Vorinism as we know it didn't develop until after the fall of the radiants.

Quoting the Coppermind article on Hierocracy:

Quote

One of the other primary goals of the Hierocracy was to expunge knowledge of Shadesmar, the Knights Radiant and the Recreance, the first failure of Vorinism.

and

Quote

The Hierocracy, along with the Recreance are considered the main two failings of Old Vorinism and are a persistent embarrassment to modern day ardents.

Vorinism, in some form, must have existed before the Recreance.

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21 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Sure.  Because it's not like someone went and Unmade something that was the natural order and corrupted it into his own designs.

Yeah, I get it. I explicitly said that this could be the case. It would just also make it so that there's no way anyone could actually figure out anything about the Unmade, and that is not how Brandon usually writes. He doesn't pull random things out of nowhere, stuff is usually really well foreshadowed and hidden right in plain sight. Hell, if there was no Voidbinding chart with the same Surgepairs, I wouldn't even be arguing here.

There is also the metatextual thing that in older versions of the magic, each Knight Radiant order had it's own element. This seems to still be the case, but now, instead of one physical element that each order can soulcast into, the elements are more philosophical. But they still exist. The concept of each order is still an elemental thing, not an arbitrary pair. So making new pairs is not so simple as just giving two surges to an Unmade, and more importantly, it breaks the description of how much magic actually exists on Roshar.

 

14 hours ago, Calderis said:

The state we see Moash in. The state that Odium wanted to put Dalinar in. The state that, in retrospect, it seems Lin Davar was in. 

We know an Unmade was involved with the Davar household, and that justification sounds an awful lot like "it's not my fault" from Moash, and "it's not your fault" from Odium to Dalinar. 

I don't see how this contradicts with anything I said. My theory is trying to figure out what sort of powers fall under Voidbinding, to seperate it from Surgebinding. I say nothing about how someone may go on the path to obtain it.

In fact this seems like the equivalent to what sort of cracks may be needed in one's soul to attract and be able to bond spren that could put you on the path to being a Knight on the Voidbinding chart.

 

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

And so could the Unmade. 

Could they? Certainly.

But Brandon has put the Old Magic in it's old category when talking about Rosharan Magic. I literally talk about this in several parts of the original post. There isn't space in any of the descriptions for there to be an effect outside of Voidbinding, Surgebinding, the Fabrial magic, and the Old Magic.


An argument I'm seeing repeated in several comments is that the Unmade are their own thing. I don't think there's any reason for them to be, or any indication that there is any magic outside of Surgebinding, Voidbinding and the third Fabrial-oriented thingamajig. When there was, specifically Cultivation/Nightwatcher's Old Magic, Brandon specifically pointed it out. Like, there's 9 Unmade, way more than just one Nightwatcher. In terms of the kind of magic, Unmade magic is a lot more widespread and dangerous as opposed to be the Old Magic, which doesn't come to you, but works on individual people once they go to it. Sure, it can be a lot more powerful compared to the Unmade, but in scale it's significantly smaller than the sheer reach and diversity of Unmade magic. So if the Unmade are doing their own thing, would Brandon really still say that there's 30 magic system, ohh and also there's the Old Magic, but never mention anything about the Unmade and their magic? Like, if there's close to 30 systems on Roshar, and the Unmade are then doing their own thing, that adds 9 (or atleast more than 3) more kinds of magic to the framework. That's way too many for the answer to still be close to 30.

Infact, the Unmade Voidbinding is potentially the only way I see of making Voidbinding a cousin to the Old Magic (which has nothing to with anything on the Surgebinding chart), but also be able to fit into the neat pattern on the Voidbinding Chart. Because if the Unmade aren't Voidbinding, then Voidbinding still has to fit all those criteria - of having a pattern and fitting into a neat chart, and also having 10 levels of some kind, but then also being a cousin to the Old Magic. While the Unmade spawn off their own unique branch in Rosharan magic, which also needlessly complicates things for no reason.

I'm trying to explain magic in existing terms atleast, with a unifying idea for the splinters of Odium to be using his magic as the backbone of their effects.

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1 hour ago, asmodeus said:

An argument I'm seeing repeated in several comments is that the Unmade are their own thing. I don't think there's any reason for them to be, or any indication that there is any magic outside of Surgebinding, Voidbinding and the third Fabrial-oriented thingamajig. When there was, specifically Cultivation/Nightwatcher's Old Magic, Brandon specifically pointed it out.

I don't think there's any need for them to be classified as a magic system, or to be treated as such. Hell, I think the only reason the old magic is counted at all is because it's ritualistic and sought out. People treat it as a magic system in world, but it's not. It's a direct action on the part of a Shard/Splinter.

We don't count everything that any of the Shards can do as their own magic system or confine them to act within one. And a spren is "a Shard of Adonalsium"

Which is why I brought up how in most cases we don't actually see the spren function like the powers they grant access to, or seem able to use them at all. The one notable exception is Adhesion. 

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1 hour ago, Calderis said:

I don't think there's any need for them to be classified as a magic system, or to be treated as such. Hell, I think the only reason the old magic is counted at all is because it's ritualistic and sought out. People treat it as a magic system in world, but it's not. It's a direct action on the part of a Shard/Splinter.

What. That makes no sense.

Lightweaving is a magic system, but Midnight Essence isn't? Tension deserves to be a magic system, the ability to make things hard like a rock, or extra floppy (no innuendo intended). Cohesion, the ability to make  things soft and liquid-y gets to be a magic system. Gravitation, the ability to just change the effect of gravity on something gets to be a magic system.

But Midnight Essence doesn't get to be one? Something we know can be harvested and used independently, and also has a tendency to copy things around itself seemingly on it's own doesn't get to be classified as it's own magic at all?

The Thrill, a battlefield-wide effect that makes soldiers into literal a bloodthirsty animals doesn't get to be called a magic system? When in another series, something very much like that was called magic?

That's just... what!?

 

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

And a spren is "a Shard of Adonalsium"

I know. It's even in my original post. Look at the Dawnshards section. Closely.

 

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Which is why I brought up how in most cases we don't actually see the spren function like the powers they grant access to, or seem able to use them at all. The one notable exception is Adhesion. 

This is a straight up fallacy. If there was an effect a spren could have, that was not in some way related to the Surges it is an expression of, and this thing was not called magic, then you could argue that everything a Shard does doesn't deserve to be a magic.

Give me one example, where a spren shows an effect that is not part of whatever piece of magic they represent, and then it also not being called magic on it's own. Then an argument could be made. Otherwise, just because a cryptic can't do soulcasting, doesn't say anything about it's capabilities not being magic.

All I'm saying is that the Unmade abilities exist because they are each one living Surge. Like any other spren. They were uncorrupted at one point, and then what they could do would have looked like regular Surges. Sja-anat, before being Unmade, was an expression of Transformation. Like many other spren on Roshar, but much bigger in scope, and ancient. Now they are corrupted, and what they can do is still an expression of whatever surge they are an embodiment of, but corrupted. Like a corrupted version of Surgebinding. Voidbinding.

Is that really so hard to accept?

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29 minutes ago, asmodeus said:

What. That makes no sense.

Lightweaving is a magic system, but Midnight Essence isn't? Tension deserves to be a magic system, the ability to make things hard like a rock, or extra floppy (no innuendo intended). Cohesion, the ability to make  things soft and liquid-y gets to be a magic system. Gravitation, the ability to just change the effect of gravity on something gets to be a magic system.

But Midnight Essence doesn't get to be one? Something we know can be harvested and used independently, and also has a tendency to copy things around itself seemingly on it's own doesn't get to be classified as it's own magic at all?

The Thrill, a battlefield-wide effect that makes soldiers into literal a bloodthirsty animals doesn't get to be called a magic system? When in another series, something very much like that was called magic?

That's just... what!?

A magic system is something that people access and use and direct. We don't that the midnight essence can be used that way. 

Yes it can be harvested, and "let loose" as the Radiant in the starfalls vision says, but we don't know that a person shapes it or directs it. It could be no different than a corporeal version of what creationspren do in their mimicry. 

The magic system that that is similar to the Thrill was directed by a wide variety of people who all had access to it, not a single spren. For the Thrill to be a magic system people would be intentionally drawing on it to strengthen themselves... Or directing it to berserk others to negate their control. But it's not that, it's a single blanket effect from one source. 

The Stormfather acts as a conduit for stormlight from the Spiritual into the Highstorm to infuse gems, facilitates the singers form transformations, and can create little pocket dimensions in the Cognitive Realm. Is that a magic system? No. It's just him. 

29 minutes ago, asmodeus said:

This is a straight up fallacy. If there was an effect a spren could have, that was not in some way related to the Surges it is an expression of, and this thing was not called magic, then you could argue that everything a Shard does doesn't deserve to be a magic.

Give me one example, where a spren shows an effect that is not part of whatever piece of magic they represent, and then it also not being called magic on it's own. Then an argument could be made. Otherwise, just because a cryptic can't do soulcasting, doesn't say anything about it's capabilities not being magic.

One, I didn't say it wasn't magic. I said it wasn't a magic system. Is that more clear? 

What surge is responsible for Syl's constant shape-shifting? Or Pattern's ability to levitate? 

Either literally everything that Spren and Shards do maps to a magic system, or there are effects that exist outside of the systems that are still rules by the greater laws of realmatics. That does not make them "not magic" it just means that people won't be able to have control over those effects. 

Edited by Calderis
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I feel like a part of this argument is due to vague or confusing terminology.

Personally, instead of "magic" and "magic system" I'd use "Investiture" and "Invested art". 

Investiture-based abilities are things like Pattern being able to levitate because he's a sentient bit of Investiture.

Invested arts are well-regulated (at least in some form) that mortals can access and wield themselves regularly. Surgebinding, allomancy, etc. The power of the Well of Ascension isn't a magic system, it's magic. Or, it's Investiture. 

 

Of course this could be completely off base and I could be entirely wrong but that's for you to decide :D

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16 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

I feel like a part of this argument is due to vague or confusing terminology.

Personally, instead of "magic" and "magic system" I'd use "Investiture" and "Invested art". 

Investiture-based abilities are things like Pattern being able to levitate because he's a sentient bit of Investiture.

Invested arts are well-regulated (at least in some form) that mortals can access and wield themselves regularly. Surgebinding, allomancy, etc. The power of the Well of Ascension isn't a magic system, it's magic. Or, it's Investiture. 

 

Of course this could be completely off base and I could be entirely wrong but that's for you to decide :D

Nah, I completely agree. 

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/nods. That makes sense to me too.

And, really, if we try to fit every magical effect we've seen on Roshar into the ten surges paradigm, the Unmade are just the tip of the iceberg. Like just about nothing in Shadesmar obviously maps onto any particular surge. 

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4 hours ago, Calderis said:

A magic system is something that people access and use and direct. We don't that the midnight essence can be used that way. 

Yes it can be harvested, and "let loose" as the Radiant in the starfalls vision says, but we don't know that a person shapes it or directs it. It could be no different than a corporeal version of what creationspren do in their mimicry. 

The magic system that that is similar to the Thrill was directed by a wide variety of people who all had access to it, not a single spren. For the Thrill to be a magic system people would be intentionally drawing on it to strengthen themselves... Or directing it to berserk others to negate their control. But it's not that, it's a single blanket effect from one source. 

The Stormfather acts as a conduit for stormlight from the Spiritual into the Highstorm to infuse gems, facilitates the singers form transformations, and can create little pocket dimensions in the Cognitive Realm. Is that a magic system? No. It's just him. 

One, I didn't say it wasn't magic. I said it wasn't a magic system. Is that more clear? 

What surge is responsible for Syl's constant shape-shifting? Or Pattern's ability to levitate? 

Either literally everything that Spren and Shards do maps to a magic system, or there are effects that exist outside of the systems that are still rules by the greater laws of realmatics. That does not make them "not magic" it just means that people won't be able to have control over those effects. 

Come on, man.

This is getting ridiculous. A this point, I don't think there is anything I could say that will ever sway your mind, because you're not even coming on to the table to have a discussion, only to state your beliefs. You're literally going, "Well here's what I think, and where your assumptions are wrong. Impressive theory, but reading it is not gonna have any effect on me whatsoever." Or at least that's the vibe I'm getting from you. Please tell me I'm wrong.

This is certainly the last time I'm gonna try to explain myself.

The distinction between a magic and a magic system is your distinction. These are not in-world distinctions, and I don't think I've ever seen Brandon make them so explicitly either. And before you discredit and disregard my entire post by quoting that one time Brandon said something like it, know this: I certainly didn't intend to distinguish between the two in my post, not deliberately.

We know that the Surges are the focus on Roshar. When has there been magic systems that don't derive from the planetary focus anywhere else?

In the Mistborn books, Brandon planned the whole affair to be 9 (now 12.5?) book long. And we got the basics of all three systems, or at least the basic idea of all three systems in the first three books. It wasn't like the third Mistborn book was going to be the end of that story. In contrast, Stormlight is 10 books long, with two 5 book arcs. There's no, "Ohh I'll bring this magic system in book 7, and explore it later." There is no Stormlight later. Anything left out has to be continued in future Mistborn books, for the most part.

The Unmade are Odium's Splinters. We know how Brandon has described magic on Roshar quantitatively. Odium has some magic on Roshar. It has to follow an established pattern, similar to Surgebinding, because we have a Voidbinding Chart that mirrors the Surgebinding Chart. We know what sort of magic the Old Magic is, in broad terms. And that most certainly is a magic system, according to Brandon. Sure, we don't know the exact specifics in its mechanics, but we know at least know how a normal person may go about it. We know that Voidbinding also has to fulfill atleast two criteria - a.) it has to have modified versions of each Surge because of the chart, same Surges but also somehow different; and b.) We know that Voidbinding also somehow has to be a cousin to the Old Magic.

I'm simply trying to explain it so that what magic we have seen can fit these criteria. Instead of going, "Some of the unexplained magic we have seen isn't even worth being counted into the original framework laid out by Brandon. There is even more magic out there, and that will be in that framework."

Transformation in Surgebinding form gets us Knight Radiant Soulcasting. I put forward the idea that Transformation in Voidish form is Enlightening. Just as the symbol essentially means Soulcasting on the Surgebinding chart, I put forward the idea the the symmetrically changed symbol would essentially mean Enlightening on the Voidbinding Chart. In Sja-anat, we have a manifestation that is closer to how the Old Magic manifests. On the Chart, this is represented by the symmetrically changed Transformation symbol. This is my theory.

We know that Midnight Essence is a repurposed magic system from another book. There are smaller rulesets that have been counted as a magic system on Roshar itself. Gravitation, for example, is extremely basic, and is counted in the original framework of Brandon. Midnight Essence at least seems to have some more complexity to it. About as much complexity as Lightweaving, if Shallan and Re-shephir's encounter is anything to go by. I'm trying to put forward the idea that through Re-shephir, we see a manifestation of Voidish Illumination that is accessed in a manner similar to the Old Magic. Midnight Essence will also be on the Voidbinding Chart in the exact place Illumination goes, because it is similar enough to Illumination to be a variation on the same concept. This little chain of thought is essentially the whole point I'm trying to make in my theory.

We know that soothing and rioting are, by some definition, magic systems in their own right. How is the Thrill any different? I explain it by saying that we have seen the manifestation that fits "Voidbinding is a cousin to the Old Magic" paradigm through Nergaoul. The Thrill will be on the Voidbinding Chart in some form too, and I think there is reason to believe it is the symmetrically changed symbol of Abrasion. 

Why do the Unmade have to be Voidbinding? Because that is one way in which the "Voidbinding is a cousin to the Old Magic" could be true. If this is not so, then somehow, out there, there are splinters of Odium that can do Voidbinding, just as the Nightwatcher, a splinter of Cultivation can do the Old Magic. Or there has to be some spren of Odium that can do Voidbinding on their own, and not grant it men. Oh wait. This is sounding familiar.

Why do the Unmade have to be Voidbinding? Because if the Old Magic is considered a magic system, and it is considered a magic system by Brandon, then I don't see why the effects of the Unmade shouldn't even be considered a a magic system in their own right. And yes, the Unmade effects have had too much impact on the story and characters. We respect and fear these powers now. If Voidbinding turns out to be something completely different, we don't have any connection to it at all, and that feels like a waste of writerly effort.

This is not to say that the Knight-like equivalents who use these will also be limited to the same effects we know. To them, using these in more varied ways could be possible. I would say even likely. And that would be the Voidbinding from the Chart. But the Unmade are Voidbinding in a way that is closer to the Old Magic. This way, both those things can exist. Both those statements are satisfied.

This is literally my theory in a nutshell. I'm not asking you to accept it. All I'm asking you to do is give fair consideration to it. If I'm wrong, tell me how through known stuff. If all you're going to do is keep saying is "Well, I don't think your assumptions are true, so I'm gonna disagree with you." then by all means, do so. You can have your own opinions. But consider the fact that you have almost 10000 reputation, and are a known authority on here. I made my account less than a month ago. Half the people in the forums will probably not give my theory any further consideration just because you said you don't agree with it. Most of them will even agree with you because they trust your opinion far more than mine. I give ample reasons why I make the assumptions I do. Give me reasons of your own. If you don't agree with mine, give me reasons why my assumptions are wrong, something other than "I just don't see why they have to be true." Because that's an opinion not based on facts, and then there is no discussion, only the stating of beliefs.

And lastly, I apologise if I come off as a little "snippy" or "snarky" here. I am a little annoyed at where the discussion has gone. I was even warned, by more than one person. I'd hoped it would steer in the other direction, not me constantly defending the assumptions in my theory, but rather the actual hypotheses in it.

I'm sorry. I'll leave all of it there, because I said it. Not sure anymore if I should have.

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36 minutes ago, asmodeus said:

This is getting ridiculous. A this point, I don't think there is anything I could say that will ever sway your mind, because you're not even coming on to the table to have a discussion, only to state your beliefs. You're literally going, "Well here's what I think, and where your assumptions are wrong. Impressive theory, but reading it is not gonna have any effect on me whatsoever." Or at least that's the vibe I'm getting from you. Please tell me I'm wrong

I'm sorry? This is why I post theories myself. To have my thinking picked apart from other eyes. To address the things I missed and either adapt, have things incorporated, break the theory, or disagree and continue on.

Whatever you decide to do or believe is up to you until we have Canon information. 

38 minutes ago, asmodeus said:

The distinction between a magic and a magic system is your distinction.

It's not. Not even in world. And @Halyo_Alex just pointed out that distinction. Not all Investiture is part of an Invested Art. With the information we have, I fully believe that Voidbinding is an Invested Art, and not simply an overarching function of Roshar.

Typically, I believe that's what Brandon is referring to when he speaks of a "magic system." 

The overarching functions outside of magic systems are just realmatics. 

If you don't agree with that, then our view of realmatics as a whole differ too greatly to mesh. 

I meant no offense. The goal should always be a greater understanding. That's the point of all of this after all. I'm sorry it came across as poorly as it seems to have. 

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40 minutes ago, asmodeus said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents
 

Come on, man.

This is getting ridiculous. A this point, I don't think there is anything I could say that will ever sway your mind, because you're not even coming on to the table to have a discussion, only to state your beliefs. You're literally going, "Well here's what I think, and where your assumptions are wrong. Impressive theory, but reading it is not gonna have any effect on me whatsoever." Or at least that's the vibe I'm getting from you. Please tell me I'm wrong.

This is certainly the last time I'm gonna try to explain myself.

The distinction between a magic and a magic system is your distinction. These are not in-world distinctions, and I don't think I've ever seen Brandon make them so explicitly either. And before you discredit and disregard my entire post by quoting that one time Brandon said something like it, know this: I certainly didn't intend to distinguish between the two in my post, not deliberately.

We know that the Surges are the focus on Roshar. When has there been magic systems that don't derive from the planetary focus anywhere else?

In the Mistborn books, Brandon planned the whole affair to be 9 (now 12.5?) book long. And we got the basics of all three systems, or at least the basic idea of all three systems in the first three books. It wasn't like the third Mistborn book was going to be the end of that story. In contrast, Stormlight is 10 books long, with two 5 book arcs. There's no, "Ohh I'll bring this magic system in book 7, and explore it later." There is no Stormlight later. Anything left out has to be continued in future Mistborn books, for the most part.

The Unmade are Odium's Splinters. We know how Brandon has described magic on Roshar quantitatively. Odium has some magic on Roshar. It has to follow an established pattern, similar to Surgebinding, because we have a Voidbinding Chart that mirrors the Surgebinding Chart. We know what sort of magic the Old Magic is, in broad terms. And that most certainly is a magic system, according to Brandon. Sure, we don't know the exact specifics in its mechanics, but we know at least know how a normal person may go about it. We know that Voidbinding also has to fulfill atleast two criteria - a.) it has to have modified versions of each Surge because of the chart, same Surges but also somehow different; and b.) We know that Voidbinding also somehow has to be a cousin to the Old Magic.

I'm simply trying to explain it so that what magic we have seen can fit these criteria. Instead of going, "Some of the unexplained magic we have seen isn't even worth being counted into the original framework laid out by Brandon. There is even more magic out there, and that will be in that framework."

Transformation in Surgebinding form gets us Knight Radiant Soulcasting. I put forward the idea that Transformation in Voidish form is Enlightening. Just as the symbol essentially means Soulcasting on the Surgebinding chart, I put forward the idea the the symmetrically changed symbol would essentially mean Enlightening on the Voidbinding Chart. In Sja-anat, we have a manifestation that is closer to how the Old Magic manifests. On the Chart, this is represented by the symmetrically changed Transformation symbol. This is my theory.

We know that Midnight Essence is a repurposed magic system from another book. There are smaller rulesets that have been counted as a magic system on Roshar itself. Gravitation, for example, is extremely basic, and is counted in the original framework of Brandon. Midnight Essence at least seems to have some more complexity to it. About as much complexity as Lightweaving, if Shallan and Re-shephir's encounter is anything to go by. I'm trying to put forward the idea that through Re-shephir, we see a manifestation of Voidish Illumination that is accessed in a manner similar to the Old Magic. Midnight Essence will also be on the Voidbinding Chart in the exact place Illumination goes, because it is similar enough to Illumination to be a variation on the same concept. This little chain of thought is essentially the whole point I'm trying to make in my theory.

We know that soothing and rioting are, by some definition, magic systems in their own right. How is the Thrill any different? I explain it by saying that we have seen the manifestation that fits "Voidbinding is a cousin to the Old Magic" paradigm through Nergaoul. The Thrill will be on the Voidbinding Chart in some form too, and I think there is reason to believe it is the symmetrically changed symbol of Abrasion. 

Why do the Unmade have to be Voidbinding? Because that is one way in which the "Voidbinding is a cousin to the Old Magic" could be true. If this is not so, then somehow, out there, there are splinters of Odium that can do Voidbinding, just as the Nightwatcher, a splinter of Cultivation can do the Old Magic. Or there has to be some spren of Odium that can do Voidbinding on their own, and not grant it men. Oh wait. This is sounding familiar.

Why do the Unmade have to be Voidbinding? Because if the Old Magic is considered a magic system, and it is considered a magic system by Brandon, then I don't see why the effects of the Unmade shouldn't even be considered a a magic system in their own right. And yes, the Unmade effects have had too much impact on the story and characters. We respect and fear these powers now. If Voidbinding turns out to be something completely different, we don't have any connection to it at all, and that feels like a waste of writerly effort.

This is not to say that the Knight-like equivalents who use these will also be limited to the same effects we know. To them, using these in more varied ways could be possible. I would say even likely. And that would be the Voidbinding from the Chart. But the Unmade are Voidbinding in a way that is closer to the Old Magic. This way, both those things can exist. Both those statements are satisfied.

This is literally my theory in a nutshell. I'm not asking you to accept it. All I'm asking you to do is give fair consideration to it. If I'm wrong, tell me how through known stuff. If all you're going to do is keep saying is "Well, I don't think your assumptions are true, so I'm gonna disagree with you." then by all means, do so. You can have your own opinions. But consider the fact that you have almost 10000 reputation, and are a known authority on here. I made my account less than a month ago. Half the people in the forums will probably not give my theory any further consideration just because you said you don't agree with it. Most of them will even agree with you because they trust your opinion far more than mine. I give ample reasons why I make the assumptions I do. Give me reasons of your own. If you don't agree with mine, give me reasons why my assumptions are wrong, something other than "I just don't see why they have to be true." Because that's an opinion not based on facts, and then there is no discussion, only the stating of beliefs.

And lastly, I apologise if I come off as a little "snippy" or "snarky" here. I am a little annoyed at where the discussion has gone. I was even warned, by more than one person. I'd hoped it would steer in the other direction, not me constantly defending the assumptions in my theory, but rather the actual hypotheses in it.

I'm sorry. I'll leave all of it there, because I said it. Not sure anymore if I should have.

No, man, I understand your frustration here. You wrote it out in a way that wholly explains why you're frustrated. And I agree. The logical steps you've made with the evidence and facts we all have at this moment, make sense. I could definitely see Void-Transformation being able to do Sja-Anat's Enlightening. A transformation of the mind and/or soul. That makes sense, from a logical perspective. I also agree that Void-Abrasion could cause the Thrill, an abrasion of the mind. All of these make sense to me, logically. It doesn't feel like an unreasonable assumption or logical leap to state those, at the very least. Perhaps some of the other ones are a bit tenuous. Maybe. But there's logic to this that I can't help but appreciate.

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I mean, I feel bound to point out that Brandon made the distinction between 'magic' and 'magic system' in the very WoBs this thread opened with- he sure doesn't appear to be counting the Old Magic as one of Roshar's thirty magic systems. So the Old Magic isn't a magic system, and I sincerely hope that nobody will be in any way interested in challenging the statement that 'the Old Magic is magic', and therefore not all forms of magic are part of a magic system. 

But I equally feel bound to point out that if the Unmade's powers don't turn out to be at least thematically similar to the Voidish surges, I'd be flabbergasted, and I suspect most readers would share my reaction.

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8 hours ago, Calderis said:

It's not. Not even in world. And @Halyo_Alex just pointed out that distinction. Not all Investiture is part of an Invested Art. With the information we have, I fully believe that Voidbinding is an Invested Art, and not simply an overarching function of Roshar.

Typically, I believe that's what Brandon is referring to when he speaks of a "magic system." 

The overarching functions outside of magic systems are just realmatics. 

If you don't agree with that, then our view of realmatics as a whole differ too greatly to mesh. 

I meant no offense. The goal should always be a greater understanding. That's the point of all of this after all. I'm sorry it came across as poorly as it seems to have. 

I think we need a better classification/terminology. Here is my proposition:

Tier 1: abilities shared by all spren or all true spren. Being bound in a gemstone/gemheart, entering Physical Realm, Nahel bond, Shardblades. Basic Realmatic stuff.

Tier 2: Human concepts and natural phenomena (pain, fire etc.). Can be used using fabrials (painrials, heating fabrials etc.).

Tier 3: Ten selected concepts (Surges) given special meaning by a magic system. Require Nahel bond or a special Surge fabrial. True Spren can used this to a certain degree even if they don't grant these powers to humans. Syl's shapeshifting is Illumination and/or Transformation. Pattern's levitation is obviously Gravity.

Tier 4: Supercharged, area of effect version of Surges ruled by large spren. I think Highstorms are this (primarily Adhesion). Nightwatcher lives in a forest (on Roshar!) - I think this is due to supercharged Progression, a smaller scale version of what was used to terraform (Ashyn-form :)) Shinovar. These Surges are completely separate from Tier 3 Bondsmith powers granted by these spren. Also, I think that fabrial version of this destroyed Ashyn.

Tier 5: Special powers of large spren, completely unrelated to any of the previous. Old Magic and visions provided by Stormfather. Require large spren's arbitrary decision rather than a Nahel bond. Old Magic can be considered a magic system sensu lato because it provides new abilities to humans and these can be stolen via Hemalurgy. It's not part of 30 Rosharan magic systems though.

In these terms, I would consider the Unmade effects to be primarily Tier 4 Voidbinding (even if I assign Voidish Surges to them completely differently than @asmodeus). They also likely provide Tier 3, if we consider them Odium's godspren that bond with Voidbinding equivalent of Bondsmiths. Some abilities may be even Tier 5 - and I guess we'll have to wait and find out.

Edited by KandraAllomancer
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1 hour ago, KandraAllomancer said:

Nightwatcher lives in a forest (on Roshar!) - I think this is due to supercharged Progression,

Roshar has plenty of forests? 

1 hour ago, KandraAllomancer said:

a smaller scale version of what was used to terraform (Ashyn-form :)) Shinovar.

I'm fairly sure Shinovar was always like that, either by design of Shards or Adonalsium himself

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17 hours ago, Calderis said:

A magic system is something that people access and use and direct. We don't that the midnight essence can be used that way. 

Yes it can be harvested, and "let loose" as the Radiant in the starfalls vision says, but we don't know that a person shapes it or directs it. It could be no different than a corporeal version of what creationspren do in their mimicry. 

The magic system that that is similar to the Thrill was directed by a wide variety of people who all had access to it, not a single spren. For the Thrill to be a magic system people would be intentionally drawing on it to strengthen themselves... Or directing it to berserk others to negate their control. But it's not that, it's a single blanket effect from one source. 

The Stormfather acts as a conduit for stormlight from the Spiritual into the Highstorm to infuse gems, facilitates the singers form transformations, and can create little pocket dimensions in the Cognitive Realm. Is that a magic system? No. It's just him. 

One, I didn't say it wasn't magic. I said it wasn't a magic system. Is that more clear? 

What surge is responsible for Syl's constant shape-shifting? Or Pattern's ability to levitate? 

Either literally everything that Spren and Shards do maps to a magic system, or there are effects that exist outside of the systems that are still rules by the greater laws of realmatics. That does not make them "not magic" it just means that people won't be able to have control over those effects. 

16 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

I feel like a part of this argument is due to vague or confusing terminology.

Personally, instead of "magic" and "magic system" I'd use "Investiture" and "Invested art". 

Investiture-based abilities are things like Pattern being able to levitate because he's a sentient bit of Investiture.

I've slept on this, and I do largely find my self seeing the distinction between the two now as you see it; I wasn't aware before these two posts that there was a distinction to be made. Hence the frustration. I tried to make arguments, and in response I thought I got "Well I see a distinction between magic and magic systems," and nothing on the actual arguments I made, when I didn't even mean to differentiate between the two.

Now, I don't see Syl's shapeshifting or Pattern's levitation in the same vein as the Unmade effects. Why?

For one, these things don't affect anything other than these creatures, and feel more like a consequence of the kind of existence they live - pieces of energy having come alive and not having a complete presence in the Physical. Pattern doesn't levitate Adolin, Syl doesn't turn a random boot into Shallan on a beach. These things only affect themselves, and their own indeterminate forms. Any magic the spren can do to affect other things in the world however, has so far come directly from the Surges they represent. Pattern creates vibrations or sound waves, Syl can stick things together with effort.

Edit Addendum: This is sort of in the vein as Nergaoul's looking like a red mist with shifting shapes inside, Ashertmarn's appearance in the physical like a black heart, or Sja-anat's ability to appear in mirrors and look a little different everytime. I'm neither ascribing those effects to the old magic nor to Voidbinding.

 

Quote

Invested arts are well-regulated (at least in some form) that mortals can access and wield themselves regularly. Surgebinding, allomancy, etc. The power of the Well of Ascension isn't a magic system, it's magic. Or, it's Investiture. 

I do find myself disagreeing with this though. We can call Allomancy a magic system or magic; Allomancy, Vin with the Mists, and by extension the Well of Ascension are all the same thing, different only in scale and the sheer amount of power involved. They are on one big sliding scale. All those things are investiture flowing through you, and being channeled into an effect along the way. Just, in Allomancy the power comes from outside and is shaped directly (it stays in you for barely an instant of time), and so you need some way to focus it. With the Mists, you don't need metal, you will is enough, because they flow through you. The Well of Ascension is the same thing, but on an even larger scale. Relevant Wob.

So, the more I think about it, the less I find a need to actually distinguish between the two. If there is a difference, it is more in scale and scope than anything truly mechanical. Brandon even calls surgebinding just magic in that WoB.

 

12 hours ago, Gilphon said:

I mean, I feel bound to point out that Brandon made the distinction between 'magic' and 'magic system' in the very WoBs this thread opened with- he sure doesn't appear to be counting the Old Magic as one of Roshar's thirty magic systems.

Technically, he doesn't distinguish between the two. He's rarely, if ever, said that Roshar has exactly thirty systems. It's always "close to" or "around" twenty or thirty. Which makes sense, 31 is still close to thirty. It is precisely the fact that he counts it outside that makes me push for the Unmade to be inside. Because them being outside pushes the count closer to 35 or even 40.

And even in my diagram, I count the Old Magic outside the 30 magic systems he's mentioned.

And trust me, I feel far less confident in this than I may seem.

Edit Addendum: I'm not even advocating for everything the Unmade do to be Voidbinding. I'm really only pushing for them to be right on the line. There are effects I ascribe to several of them that are their own: Yelig-nar's granting of all 10 Surges; Ashertmarn's pushing of over-induglence into his cohesive flock; etc.

Edited by asmodeus
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4 hours ago, Inky said:

Roshar has plenty of forests? 

Shinovar is the only land that has soil on Roshar (except for Nightwatcher's Valley, apparently), I think. It explains the attitude of the Shin towards stone (i.e. rest of Roshar).

4 hours ago, Inky said:

I'm fairly sure Shinovar was always like that, either by design of Shards or Adonalsium himself

Shinovar was always shielded from the Highstorms, but its flora and fauna are from Ashyn. It takes time to develop soil from bare rock (usually by lichens and mosses) - that's why I think some form of terraforming was used.

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26 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

Shinovar is the only land that has soil on Roshar (except for Nightwatcher's Valley, apparently), I think. It explains the attitude of the Shin towards stone (i.e. rest of Roshar).

Yes, but Roshar has forests. Just of strange native plants. There's huge swaths of the map that are very green

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25 minutes ago, Inky said:

Yes, but Roshar has forests. Just of strange native plants. There's huge swaths of the map that are very green

I always imagined most of Roshar as something more akin to savanna (pseudo-grassland + rare trees), but you may be right.

Edit: I re-read Oathbringer chapter 114 (Dalinar's meeting with the Nightwatcher). There is indeed no explicit mention of soil in Nightwatcher's Valley, but there's wealth of plant life (and types of plants) unlike anything Dalinar had seen in his life before. Also, wild chickens live there.

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@KandraAllomancer read Shallan's flashbacks in her family's gardens again. There are vines everywhere. Roshar is verdant. The ecology is just drastically different from ours.

Quote

Questioner

How does a world that is wracked by Storms supply food for and entire population?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, you um... The thing to keep in mind is, it's not a barren planet. There are lots of plants on this planet. When-- I mean, it's no more barren than a corral reef that deals with the tide rushing in and rushing out. Now, the life has to adapt to it, but it's a really lush planet. You-- I mean, if you go and you look at the Shattered Plains there's grass everywhere and plants growing all over the place. It's just, right before a Storm, it becomes barren and then becomes lush again.

*long pause* 

Yeah, that was, um... One of the things I kind of have to overcome with this books is, though it is very rocky and stony, it's also very lush, and it's hard sometimes for people to imagine that. But even if it is a little bit barren, Utah is barren, and it supported people.

Salt Lake City signing (March 29, 2014)

But this is very off topic. 

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Lift also talks about Rosharan trees a bit in Edgedancer- there are basically two varieties: willow-like trees that grow alone and lie flat when the Highstorms rolls by, and more foresty ones that grow very close together and intertwine their branches so the storm can't knock them over. So a Rosharan forest is gonna be much thicker than forests on earth; probably you wouldn't be able to travel through them with much ease. But they certainly exist. 

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Excellent write up!  I wish I could add something substantive, as this is the first long theory that didn't make my eyes glaze over at some point in the middle (which isn't meant to be a knock on long theories-I love them-it's just many Sharders are far more versed in WoB's and lore and faster than light physics than me,) but don't have much more to say besides great theory.

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On 5.11.2019 at 8:25 PM, Gilphon said:

Lift also talks about Rosharan trees a bit in Edgedancer- there are basically two varieties: willow-like trees that grow alone and lie flat when the Highstorms rolls by, and more foresty ones that grow very close together and intertwine their branches so the storm can't knock them over. So a Rosharan forest is gonna be much thicker than forests on earth; probably you wouldn't be able to travel through them with much ease. But they certainly exist. 

Thanks for the information. I really need to re-read Edgedancer... There are still some things about the Nightwatcher that I'd like to discuss, but I'll create another topic for it

Edited by KandraAllomancer
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