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Mid-Range Game 38: The Council of Elrond


Elbereth

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2 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

OOC: Please don't include @little wilson, Elberond's updated status notes the Cursor of Doom has asked to not be included in every PM :P 

Also, IDK, clearly 1337 ninja skills so you should vote for me next cycle! Sauron will never see me coming if I Naruto-run! :ph34r: j/k

Okay, jokes aside, I suspect it's because I had multiple 17th Shard browser windows open in different places but I can't be certain.

Oh. Uhh... Woops. Should I remove her from any PMs I've started?

Hah. Okay, that would make sense.

...it says a lot about me as a player that, within 15 seconds of hearing that, I was thinking of how to deliberately exploit it. XD

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3 minutes ago, Wonko the Sane said:

Oh. Uhh... Woops. Should I remove her from any PMs I've started?

Don't worry about it. My reason for not wanting to be included was so my email inbox doesn't get spammed with notifications for PM's here, but I've just been turning off notifications for the PM's that I've been included in thus far. I just don't want to have to do that for 50+ PM's. :P

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A mottled gathering of wanderers, gathered from near and far. Gathered together around a small piece of metal with a power and weight greater than the dwarven army combined. Decisions to be made, a journey to attain. From humble hobbits and wanderers to dwarves and elfs. A strange bunch to be candidates to take this ring of power to be destroyed. Tinuiel pulled her journal out of her satchel and opened it up to a new page. In it she began to write her thoughts surrounding those who spoke.

Beren - a bold man. First to speak, first to nominate himself. A leader in nature perhaps. Evidently a fighter. There will certainly be times in this journey where such a thing will be needed. But men lust for power, who can say a creature like himself would not fight to take the ring for his own.

Scar - Hobbit. A strange creature. Drunk. Violent. Unpredictable. Current bearer of the ring. Concerning. Questionable motives. Has the ring already taken effect or is this their usual state?

Kavan - A brave man wishing aide for his home. He possesses wisdom that is born from experience. His priorities lie with his King and his homeland which may be problematic however his reluctance to participate make speak well for his ability to resist the draw of the ring.

Coda - They have an admirable enthusiasm although may be a bit too eager. Their passion could be good for keeping up the moral of the group. Skill with stealth may also prove useful.

Dronlir - Attendant of the large dwarf. His strength may prove useful and his willingness to help someone else as an attendant may be a positive indicator of his nature

Bombur - The entirely too large dwarf. Would be a poor edition to the party. No horse should have to deal with carrying him, and being able to ration food on a long journey is crucial for survival. Is proving to have a nature of greed, at least when it comes to food so may be a risk to have near the ring. However, is the first of us to nominate a name other than their own which is quite admirable

The Sane one - the first to begin inquiring into the genuineness of those around them

Striker - A honest sounding man. Amnesiac- may be a boon or a bane. We shall have to see.


Tinuiel realized that no other soul had spoken than those she had listed so far. Only half. She was sure that the others would speak soon though. Perhaps she should speak herself. But no. For now she wanted to observe so her decisions may be informed ones.
 

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3 hours ago, Wonko the Sane said:

I could accept the RP reasoning -- though I've never been a fan of RP-motivated voting decisions -- except that you didn't actually offer Bombur up. You still haven't cast a vote. This is telling, because your vote would be the second on him, making it an actually viable lynch. It reads to me as you deliberately avoiding making any waves -- a decidedly eliminator sort of behavior.

When I first made the post, it would have been the first vote on Fifth, just adding one more single-vote candidate to the pool. Since you've brought it up, subsequently voting on him, I feel a little pinned into a strange potential for IKYK no matter how I vote, so I'm trying to put more thought into it, rather than just reacting to prompting for a vote. Especially since, to your own point, village is not majorly harmed by no vote.

3 hours ago, Wonko the Sane said:

And Fifth's argument is specifically that voting only on ourselves is going to lead to a non-lynch, because no one had more than one vote. Your refusal to vote, on either of you, is perpetuating that situation.

It's not a refusal to vote. It is a desire to make a more informed decision. I am at work (and have been since I first got on this turn), so am limited on the time I can spend reading/analyzing. I don't believe throwing down a vote for the sake of a vote is going to be helpful at the moment.

2 hours ago, Wonko the Sane said:

On a totally unrelated note, @Kasimir, how on Middle-Earth did you post that, and then edit it, without ever showing up as Recently Browsing? I was paying avid attention at the time, because I was noting that @Elandera was spending a lot of time looking at my post, without responding. So you just plopping down that post out of nowhere confused the heck out of me. :P

Yup. Sorry. That's a side effect of me being at work. I often end up with the tab open on the page for hours, but no time to actually do anything. Other times, I can spend hours doing things online. Today has been particularly bad in regards to number of calls/incidents. In the down time, I'm trying to piece together a D&D game by tomorrow.

I do hope to get a vote down by tomorrow afternoon, after a bit more consideration.

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31 minutes ago, Elandera said:

When I first made the post, it would have been the first vote on Fifth, just adding one more single-vote candidate to the pool. Since you've brought it up, subsequently voting on him, I feel a little pinned into a strange potential for IKYK no matter how I vote, so I'm trying to put more thought into it, rather than just reacting to prompting for a vote. Especially since, to your own point, village is not majorly harmed by no vote.

I'm actually not trying to pin you right now, believe it or not. You're a person of interest for me, and I'm looking to get your vote on the record for later analysis. I don't have any immediate plans for the information.
 

31 minutes ago, Elandera said:

It's not a refusal to vote. It is a desire to make a more informed decision. I am at work (and have been since I first got on this turn), so am limited on the time I can spend reading/analyzing. I don't believe throwing down a vote for the sake of a vote is going to be helpful at the moment.

Hm. I think I just basically disagree with this. Your vote is your number one tool for manipulating the game, and not using it is doing no one any good. It's always possible to move or remove your vote later, so it's usually in both your and the Village's interest to place your vote as soon as you have a reason to -- it lets you prod and maneuver people into engaging with the discussion (even in this game, though the specifics of how are different), and it's a concrete expression of your opinion, which is information for the other players.
 

31 minutes ago, Elandera said:

Yup. Sorry. That's a side effect of me being at work. I often end up with the tab open on the page for hours, but no time to actually do anything. Other times, I can spend hours doing things online. Today has been particularly bad in regards to number of calls/incidents. In the down time, I'm trying to piece together a D&D game by tomorrow.

Gotcha. That particular poke is rescinded, then. Keep fighting the good fight. :)

Edited by Wonko the Sane
grammar
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10 hours ago, Wonko the Sane said:

That said, Fifth has earned a tiny modicum of trust from me for being the first to disrupt an obviously unproductive pattern.

I note, though, that rather than support his own position by actually creating a lynch on someone, he voted on someone who didn't already have a vote, changing absolutely nothing about the "one vote each" problem, and he seems to have selected his vote for exclusively RP reasons. Care to comment, @Fifth Scholar?

My desire was not to create an immediate lynch, as the people who you yourself noted were employing the same “unproductive pattern” would be poor candidates for immediate trust; while my vote on Elandera wasn’t born out of trust either, it was meant as a poke vote (which do still work in this game, albeit in a different way) which wouldn’t put anybody on the Fellowship quite yet. So far, I think I’m content to let the vote sit where it is after seeing her response, despite my desire to cement my lead; I will PM you with more details. 

9 hours ago, Wonko the Sane said:

Side note, and this is interesting: Because there's no Elim kill, a non-lynch is actually strictly advantageous for the Village. The only thing that would come out of the cycle is information, which -- since the Village has no secrets -- can only help them. It's less information that we get from a lynch, which is why it's usually better to push a lynch, but in this case, there's literally no cost to an extra cycle. It's on the elims to make early lynches happen, here: they want the game over as soon as possible.

I would disagree with...the vast majority of this, and would possibly suspect you for even suggesting this. I’m a proponent of early lynches in almost every game, but especially this one, and the reason is that the lack of an Eliminator kill hurts a village which doesn’t lynch more than one that does; the kill actually provides information similar to the lynch regarding alignment, and in a world without lynching or killing, the only information we have is that which the Eliminators choose to give us; the Soothe, a deadly IKYK in most contexts where it doesn’t support an Eliminator into being on the Fellowship, and the posts of the Eliminators and villagers themselves, which are consequence-free without voting. As you mentioned as a point against Elandera, a refusal to immediately vote denies the village information; what would happen if nobody voted? The best reads you could hope to acquire would be tone, the reads would be individual and disconnected, and those Eliminators who managed to have good tone would slip by. Another point would be that a two-person Eliminator hammer could immediately elect a Corrupted, which would be a poor way to start the game, particularly with the outed Eliminator free to cause chaos with their votes and words. Also, I’m further suspicious that the age-old D1 lynch discussion is being brought up again, as inherently it’s (mostly) NAI and just ends up taking space in the thread (which I’ve contributed to...oops...), and can provide Eliminators with a way to contribute without putting in a ton of effort or giving readily analysable content; I’m not saying that you’re doing this, but it’s a risk. Finally, I don’t want to torture El by dragging out her game. :P 

My strongest current trusts are probably Elandera, Burnt and Kas, not necessarily in that order, and if Elandera isn’t a viable candidate I’ll probably switch to myself or one of those two. 

Edit: RP to come next post, probably in response to somebody else’s. If you want to coordinate RP with me, please PM me! :) 

Edited by Fifth Scholar
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3 hours ago, Fifth Scholar said:

I would disagree with...the vast majority of this, and would possibly suspect you for even suggesting this. I’m a proponent of early lynches in almost every game, but especially this one, and the reason is that the lack of an Eliminator kill hurts a village which doesn’t lynch more than one that does; the kill actually provides information similar to the lynch regarding alignment, and in a world without lynching or killing, the only information we have is that which the Eliminators choose to give us; the Soothe, a deadly IKYK in most contexts where it doesn’t support an Eliminator into being on the Fellowship, and the posts of the Eliminators and villagers themselves, which are consequence-free without voting. As you mentioned as a point against Elandera, a refusal to immediately vote denies the village information; what would happen if nobody voted? The best reads you could hope to acquire would be tone, the reads would be individual and disconnected, and those Eliminators who managed to have good tone would slip by. Another point would be that a two-person Eliminator hammer could immediately elect a Corrupted, which would be a poor way to start the game, particularly with the outed Eliminator free to cause chaos with their votes and words. Also, I’m further suspicious that the age-old D1 lynch discussion is being brought up again, as inherently it’s (mostly) NAI and just ends up taking space in the thread (which I’ve contributed to...oops...), and can provide Eliminators with a way to contribute without putting in a ton of effort or giving readily analysable content; I’m not saying that you’re doing this, but it’s a risk. Finally, I don’t want to torture El by dragging out her game. :P 

An elim outing themselves to push a teammate through is a possible consequence, but unless there are 6 or more elims, I'm not positive that wouldn't be a good thing. At 5 elims, I honestly can't say who I think that would benefit, but at 3-4, I'm confident that it would be the Village.

And that's the only possible consequence. If it doesn't happen, and there is no election, the Village loses absolutely nothing, and might gain a little information. I'm not saying it would be much -- like you said, a lynch without teeth can't be counted on to produce reliable information. But the information it does provide is totally free of cost.

This isn't the age-old D1 lynch discussion. This game has one of the most unusual lynches in the history of SE, combined with a bizarre "nobody dies" ruleset. I think it's reasonable to discuss the ramifications of that a little.

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What in the world Middle Earth are all of you talking about? There are entire rooms of elven mead here, and yet in all the time you've had not one of you has opened a new barrel? This is an outrage. I am ashamed on all of your *hiccups, farts loudly* behalfs.

10 hours ago, Burnt Spaghetti said:

Scar - Hobbit. A strange creature. Drunk. Violent. Unpredictable. Current bearer of the ring. Concerning. Questionable motives. Has the ring already taken effect or is this their usual state?

Why, thank you!

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"Sorry, what now?" Dronlir had lost track of the conversation, after letting his mind wander into an adventure of his own making. 

---

I was going to RP this, but I just don't have time. Since I promised I'd vote, here it is.

Elandera

I find myself growing more suspicious of Fifth. His apparent trust in me seems a little... exaggerated? I think that's the right word. I also find it interesting that so early in the game he voted on someone seemingly at random. While it is beneficial bin the long run, it could easily be an elim ploy to gain village cred, for being the first to prompt the election of a villager. As an elim, he'd have full confidence in knowing alignments, and would not be apprehensive about electing someone else. 

I'll try to share more thoughts later, but I'm out of time. 

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Okay, I’ve been thinking. And I’m curious how many people would be willing to choose 7 people we want elected to the Fellowship this cycle and getting two people to vote on each of them. If we all chose our 7 people we’d want elected, it’d be interesting to see who gets chosen. 
 

Here would be my list:

Striker

Kasimir

Elandera

Wonko

Fifth

Scar

Burnt

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1 hour ago, StrikerEZ said:

Okay, I’ve been thinking. And I’m curious how many people would be willing to choose 7 people we want elected to the Fellowship this cycle and getting two people to vote on each of them. If we all chose our 7 people we’d want elected, it’d be interesting to see who gets chosen. 
 

Here would be my list:

Striker

Kasimir

Elandera

Wonko

Fifth

Scar

Burnt

Bombur cleared his throat. “Master Striker, while your idea of sharing the Fellowship we would like to create perhaps has merit, your implementation sounds incredibly suspicious. Shall we allow those among us with evil intent to alter the course of our decision with their Shadow able to impose forcible silence on any of us (the Eliminator Soothe), or at the last stages of our decision making raise such chaos with their changing of opinions that the servants of the Enemy may thus more easily enter into the Fellowship? Such counsel seems likely to lead only to our ruin, and since your plan would take us there, I see no reason to entrust the safety of the Ring-bearer to your care anytime soon. Or even that pile of perfectly good meats in front of you.” Bombur reached onto the plate of the man, who was standing directly in front of him, and swallowed a sausage. “Really, you should just give me the whole tray while you’re at it.”

2 hours ago, Elandera said:

I was going to RP this, but I just don't have time. Since I promised I'd vote, here it is.

Elandera

I find myself growing more suspicious of Fifth. His apparent trust in me seems a little... exaggerated? I think that's the right word. I also find it interesting that so early in the game he voted on someone seemingly at random. While it is beneficial bin the long run, it could easily be an elim ploy to gain village cred, for being the first to prompt the election of a villager. As an elim, he'd have full confidence in knowing alignments, and would not be apprehensive about electing someone else. 

Bombur looked aghast at Dronlir. “But you cannot be saying such things!” he exclaimed. “Why would I choose anybody in this chamber on a whim when I could attest to your own character from prior knowledge? And why do you support your own ascension if you disagree with my assessment of you?”

OORP: I chose you for RP reasons, and for reasons which I’m choosing to keep under wraps for now. As I said, my vote is probably moving to Kas, Burnt or myself by the end of the cycle, unless a more convincing argument pops up. 

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2 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

Okay, I’ve been thinking. And I’m curious how many people would be willing to choose 7 people we want elected to the Fellowship this cycle and getting two people to vote on each of them. If we all chose our 7 people we’d want elected, it’d be interesting to see who gets chosen. 
 

Here would be my list:

Striker

Kasimir

Elandera

Wonko

Fifth

Scar

Burnt

Feedback from the election is important. This might be useful in later cycles, but I don't think it's particularly useful right now.

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@Fifth Scholar Okay, first, I think you took my proposal a little too seriously. While I do think it would be interesting to see what would happen if we elected the entire Fellowship D1, it is highly unlikely we would be able to even get enough people (14 to be exact) to even agree on 7 people to vote for, and that’s just ignoring the fact that the elims would be able to cause chaos and do some vote shenanigans. My real point of asking people to say who they’d want in the Fellowship was so that we could see who people are trusting and who they aren’t. It should be more obvious if one or two players repeatedly show up in only a few players’ lists. 
Second, the only (EDIT: main) reason I’m voting on myself for now is because of RP reasons. I know my tendencies as a player, and I know how people react to my play style, so I don’t legitimately think I’ll be elected. But, by putting myself on my list, I know that at least one of the seven members of the Fellowship would be on my side.

22 minutes ago, Straw said:

Feedback from the election is important. This might be useful in later cycles, but I don't think it's particularly useful right now.

I’m curious why you don’t think it’d be useful right now.

Edited by StrikerEZ
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22 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

@Fifth Scholar Okay, first, I think you took my proposal a little too seriously. While I do think it would be interesting to see what would happen if we elected the entire Fellowship D1, it is highly unlikely we would be able to even get enough people (14 to be exact) to even agree on 7 people to vote for, and that’s just ignoring the fact that the elims would be able to cause chaos and do some vote shenanigans. My real point of asking people to say who they’d want in the Fellowship was so that we could see who people are trusting and who they aren’t. It should be more obvious if one or two players repeatedly show up in only a few players’ lists. 
Second, the only (EDIT: main) reason I’m voting on myself for now is because of RP reasons. I know my tendencies as a player, and I know how people react to my play style, so I don’t legitimately think I’ll be elected. But, by putting myself on my list, I know that at least one of the seven members of the Fellowship would be on my side.

“My point exactly, sir, on the turmoil that the corrupted could engineer, but why bring the possibility up at all if you were not at least somewhat serious? Even a 2- or 3-way split between us could cede control of the election to the Shadow, and your remarks, offhand though they may seem, may push those with noble intentions to deepen existing schisms and differences of opinion, or normalise such behaviour if a Corrupted were to attempt it. It is better if we use the election process Master Elberond has set up in its ordinary fashion, lest by seeking to abuse it, we hand the Shadow an even more potent weapon.”

Bombur used the man’s temporary glance at another person to steal two more sausages off his plate. “Anyway, if you don’t hope to be elected, I’d suggest you start looking elsewhere for your endorsement. Dronlir I support for obvious reasons, because he supports me all the time, but I’ve taken a liking to that man Kavan I’ve been chatting with privately.” Bombur jabbed his fork at the man in question, then speared a fourth sausage with it. “That elf Tinuiel is another one I’d be alright with—not friends, of course, because she’s an elf and would never make friends with us “cave-dwelling” Dwarves, but perchance she seems like the type who wouldn’t stab me in the back first chance she got. Maybe she’d wait until the third or fourth chance. I guess the Elves call that mercy.” 

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Kavan shrugged. "I've done some terrible things in the past, I'm sure," -and he had been arrogant, and recklessly confident in his own judgement, and perhaps he had not minded, just a little, and that blood would stain his hands and continue to. He traced the long, ropy scar that snaked along his forearm where an archer's bracer would normally have sat. He disliked bracers; they irritated the scar. "I wouldn't be so confident in my ability to resist the lure of the Enemy's Ring, if Lord Elberond speaks truly of the temptation it presents any being."

He turned to the outlander who named himself Striker. "I'm certain my thoughts will change over time," he drawled - didn't they always? He had hoped to be better than the man who had fought the Easterlings and fled with the wounded. "But for the moment, had I to select the Fellowship today, with no delay, I would opt for Coda, the Observer, Pejidot, Aragorn, the black hat over there, Rathmaskal, and of course, Ulmo. Who better than a god to see the Ring to the fires?"

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As much as I'd like to try and RP everything, that'll result in me contributing very little. So I'll try and write analysis, comments, and votes in RP if I have the time, but I'm not going to restrict myself to only doing so.

So the current Fellowship Candidates are as follows:

Fellowship Candidates
Hael(1): Hael
Kas(0): Kas{1}
Coda(1): Coda
Elandera(2): Fifth, Elandera
Fifth(2): Wonko, Straw
Striker(1): Striker
STINK(1): Kas{2}

I'm no Alv, so I would probably rather avoid a tie. For that reason I'd probably rather put a vote down on Fifth (Hael), more so from their comments about the state of the lynch than the choice to not vote on themselves. I'd see that as simply for the RP.

If I had to elect 7 people now, I'd probably choose Burnt, Kas, Young Bard, Aman, Wonko, and Straw, in addition to myself, though mainly that's because they're the people I've played the most with before. But then I don't have game relevant thoughts on most of them (mostly because of no posts), and Wonko I could see going either way (village or elim) so I'd want to hold of voting on him for the moment anyway.

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Well... Darn it, Hael, I've been telling people that I planned on moving my vote as soon a Elandera voted -- I told you that! Why did you have to go and give it more importance?

I'm going to stick to my word, because I'm loathe to lose Fifth's discussion contribution right now.

Elandera's vote was not what I was expecting. It calls attention to herself, in a way that makes her even more interesting to me. I want to hear more from her now, but unfortunately, I need to support a lynch, and I want her over Fifth. I have a more positive read on Fifth, but I'd rather hold onto him, since he's helping to cause discussion. So, Elandera.

I'm not sure how cogent I'm being; it's late. I'm going to bed. Here's hoping Elandera doesn't turn out to be an elim, losing me any trust I may have gathered.

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