The song of Spren

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

One of things that has always bothered me Is why none of the Singers had ever bonded a non void spren before . Venli is the first to ever do so . Even she thought it was not possible . So on a reread of WoR I found the Song of Spren . The song seems to contradict itself . At first it says that Singers can’t provide what men can provide . Comparing their bond to broth and humans bond as meat . Making me believe that the spren won’t gain much intelligence . Later it says this was promised in days passed. So is a Nahel bond possible or not ? I know Venli has one . But is it that Venli spren is the only type that can do it , and is that why it’s never worked before ? I’m sure the answer is in this song . So can some of you tell me what you think it means 

[+Invocation]

Nahel bonds with singers weren't possible. Something changed. Now they are, judging from Venli. That's as much as I know.

[Halyo_Alex]

22 minutes ago, Invocation said:

Nahel bonds with singers weren't possible. Something changed. Now they are, judging from Venli. That's as much as I know.

In my theoretical opinion, the one thing that's seriously changed is that their Identity and Connection have been removed and replaced due to Ba-Ado-Mishram's capture and the Everstorm shenanigans. Maybe the replacement Identity and Connection was different in a way that allows Radiant Spren to properly Nahel Bond with the repaired Singer souls.

[+Invocation]

2 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

In my theoretical opinion, the one thing that's seriously changed is that their Identity and Connection have been removed and replaced due to Ba-Ado-Mishram's capture and the Everstorm shenanigans. Maybe the replacement Identity and Connection was different in a way that allows Radiant Spren to properly Nahel Bond with the repaired Singer souls.

That's possible. My theory probably would have been that it was perceived to be impossible, and that made it so.

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

11 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

In my theoretical opinion, the one thing that's seriously changed is that their Identity and Connection have been removed and replaced due to Ba-Ado-Mishram's capture and the Everstorm shenanigans. Maybe the replacement Identity and Connection was different in a way that allows Radiant Spren to properly Nahel Bond with the repaired Singer souls.

Problem with that theory is Venli wasn’t a parshmen , they are the ones that were healed and connection restored . Venli was a Listener, they took dullforn to escape BAM influence so they were never trapped in slaveforn.

[Halyo_Alex]

Just now, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

Problem with that theory is Venli wasn’t a parshmen , they are the ones that were healed and connection restored . Venli was a Listener, they took dullforn to escape BAM influence so they were never trapped in slaveforn.

D'oh. You're correct.

I guess that means Invocation is closer to the truth than I.

[Calderis]

The "Identity" in that "Connection and Identity" is much more figurative than most of the uses we see. 

Quote

Questioner

In terms of discussing Identity, I know that in Emperor's Soul, they talk about Identity, and the Parshendi talk about losing their Identity, and then I was just rereading Bands of Mourning, and one of the kandra talks about how the spikes are their Identity. Are all of those things connected somehow or are they different forms of Identity?

Brandon Sanderson

They are connected, although the Parshendi losing their identity is a little more metaphorical. But yeah, the idea of these things-- Identity is an innate attribute in the cosmere that is related to your soul, your spirit, and it is one of the things that Hemalurgy can fiddle with and Feruchemy can fiddle with. It's kind of important to how the [Metallic] Arts play out, but it's important to all the magics...

Identity is involved in why you can't use another person's metalminds, right, that kind of thing. And those are all related. The Parshendi is more metaphorical. 

Questioner

I wondered because it's always capitalized, in the book.

Brandon Sanderson

Yep, and it's done intentionally. Peter always asks, "Are you sure this one is capitalized?" "Yeah."

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

Identity as a Spiritual trait is not personality. 

[+Harrycrapper]

IIRC, Tanavast used to be the one who accepted Oaths to form Nahel bonds. It could be that Tanavast wouldn't allow the Radiant Spren to bond the Singers, but the Stormfather will. 

Edited October 29, 2019 by Harrycrapper

[KandraAllomancer]

2 hours ago, Invocation said:

That's possible. My theory probably would have been that it was perceived to be impossible, and that made it so.

I agree. It doesn't help that Singers are naturally able to bond spren with their gemhearts in a way that's not a Nahel bond (it gives them forms, but doesn't grant sapience to spren). Combine this with the fact that (according to Eila Stele) they were forbidden from experimenting with Surges (by Tanavast probably) and it's hardly a surprise that they didn't discover Nahel bond until it was too late. Then Desolations happened and spren turned away from them.

 

32 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

IIRC, Tanavast used to be the one who accepted Oaths to form Nahel bonds. It could be that Tanavast wouldn't allow the Radiant Spren to bond the Singers, but the Stormfather will. 

I think that decision is up to each spren. Stormfather definitely wouldn't allow Syl to bond with a human.

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

We know from Rlain that Singers have to be in the proper form to draw in stormlight .  So they would need that form first . Then once in a form that can utilize stormlight . Then they have to try and form a Nahel bond . The singers forgot all thier forms but 5 , 6 if you count stormform. So maybe that’s what happened with Venli . A Regal is form of power capable of Using voidlight . Once she was in that form and attracted Timbr, she then realized she could . As invocation said . They probably could have all along but didn’t know the right forms,  and believed the couldn’t . A lot of magic in the Cosmere works of Intent . If you jump into a perpindicularity and don’t intend to go anywhere you don’t go . If you put on a metalmnd that can be used by anyone and don’t know it’s a metalmind nothing happens. So if they believed it would not work . It wouldn’t 

[Calderis]

22 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

We know from Rlain that Singers have to be in the proper form to draw in stormlight .

Singer forms don't draw in stormlight. 

Edit: what I assume you're basing this on (and I believe we've had this argument before, shortly after you joined the forums) is this section from Rlain's chapter. 

Quote

When he and Skar had been the only two who couldn’t draw Stormlight, they’d encouraged Skar. They’d given him pep talks, told him to keep trying. They had believed in him. Rlain, though … well, who knew what would happen if he could use Stormlight? Might it be the first step in turning him into a monster?
Never mind that he’d told them you had to open yourself to a form to adopt it. Never mind that he had the power to choose for himself. Though they never spoke it, he saw the truth in their reactions. As with Dabbid, they thought it best that Rlain remain without Stormlight.
The parshman and the insane man. People you couldn’t trust as Windrunners.

And he does not say that they could draw in stormlight in a form.

He says that the others seem to fear that somehow stormlight would turn him into a monster like the Stormform listeners, and that they are racist idiots to think that he could change to a form without Intent. 

It's two separate issues. 

Edited October 29, 2019 by Calderis

[+Harrycrapper]

30 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

I think that decision is up to each spren. Stormfather definitely wouldn't allow Syl to bond with a human.

The Stormfather very notably said "I accept these words." The Spren picks the human, but the Stormfather plays a role in accepting the Oaths. I don't know exactly what determines whether he accepts them or not, it could just be whether they line up with the respective Radiant order. But he has to accept the words, and it's possible with Tanavast being more of a sentient being, he could reject Oaths with more prejudice than the Stormfather. Also, it's worth noting that the Stormfather would not have accepted Kaladin's third Oath if Syl hadn't brow beaten him into doing it. I think he very much could have rejected the Oath if she hadn't been so passionate(haha) about it.

[KandraAllomancer]

55 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

The Stormfather very notably said "I accept these words."

Could you point me to the source of this? I recall Stormfather saying "These Words … are accepted" but in this case he only accepted Dalinar's Third Ideal.

[Calderis]

44 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

Could you point me to the source of this? I recall Stormfather saying "These Words … are accepted" but in this case he only accepted Dalinar's Third Ideal.

The Lopen would like a word with you. 

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

Singer forms don't draw in stormlight. 

Edit: what I assume you're basing this on (and I believe we've had this argument before, shortly after you joined the forums) is this section from Rlain's chapter. 

And he does not say that they could draw in stormlight in a form.

He says that the others seem to fear that somehow stormlight would turn him into a monster like the Stormform listeners, and that they are racist idiots to think that he could change to a form without Intent. 

It's two separate issues. 

Finally I get what you are saying , your saying that Rlain was thinking that stormlight wouldn’t make him change forms , he had to intend to change forms to open himself up to a spren. I listened on audio books . Reading it I can see where I got confused... after reading it I concur.

 

on my second point I still disagree. You said singer forms don’t draw in stormlight . Well Venli did draw in stormlight , right before she said the first ideal . What I was proposing was that Singers had to be in a form to draw in stormlight . I was wrong about Rlain was saying . So I guess they don’t have to be in a form to draw it in . But she did draw it in . I can admit I do not understand how . Venli doesn’t even understand how . That she was always told they couldn’t . It’s what I Hope a clue was somewhere in the song of spren

        

[Calderis]

15 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

on my second point I still disagree. You said singer forms don’t draw in stormlight . Well Venli did draw in stormlight , right before she said the first ideal . What I was proposing was that Singers had to be in a form to draw in stormlight . I was wrong about Rlain was saying . So I guess they don’t have to be in a form to draw it in . But she did draw it in . I can admit I do not understand how . Venli doesn’t even understand how . That she was always told they couldn’t . It’s what I Hope a clue was somewhere in the song of spren

And I don't think her drawing in stormlight is any different than with the humans. She can do it because she has a Nahel bond. 

I don't see what the form has to do with it at all. Especially as she's in a form that she only still has because Timbre has enslaved the voidspren in her gemheart. 

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

15 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And I don't think her drawing in stormlight is any different than with the humans. She can do it because she has a Nahel bond. 

I don't see what the form has to do with it at all. Especially as she's in a form that she only still has because Timbre has enslaved the voidspren in her gemheart. 

That’s the reason for this post . It’s not normal for Singers to use , in all these 1000 of years none have ever done it . Your telling me that you don’t think it’s odd that in 1000 of years no singer has ever formed a Nahel. Bond ? Venli said she had never heard of her people doing it before ? Her mother knew all the songs . None about Singers even being able to form a bond . That’s why I think this Song is a important clue as to why ? The two most important or intriquing lines are 

 

1 we can’t provide what humans lend , though broth are we , there meat is men.

2. We question not if they could have us then , but if we dare have them again.

 

line 1 refers to somehow humans form a bond where spren benifit more due to anatomy or the way a Singers mind is 

line 2 seems to say they did question the fact that they were told they couldn’t form nahel bonds in the past , but can they trust the spren who they perceive betrayed them 

 

i made this post to get to get others opinions and say how they deciphered those lines . Fresh eyes don’t hurt . And interested whats others see. But one thing I know . The Fact Venli formed a Nahel bond is a big deal . Now the singers have another option other than Odium . 

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

line 1 refers to somehow humans form a bond where spren benifit more due to anatomy or the way a Singers mind is 

This does not mean that anything has changed at all. When Venli glows, there's no smoke rising from her skin. 

It's very possible her bond, as a singer, will be different. I think the reason Timbre communicates through the rhythms is that she's less firmly anchored in the Physical because of Venli's nature. I also think that there will be a tease-off where perhaps Venli doesn't leak (as there's no smoke) but she doesn't get a shardblade at all. It's far to soon to tell. 

6 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

It’s not normal for Singers to use , in all these 1000 of years none have ever done it . Your telling me that you don’t think it’s odd that in 1000 of years no singer has ever formed a Nahel. Bond ?

Yes, that's exactly what I think. 

The singers being "forbidden" works on more levels than is obvious. If the spren themselves had sworn not to bond with singers, they would be bound by that oath. They literally could not choose a singer. 

Timbre did not live pre-recreance. It's very possible she did not live while Honor lived. 

So now, when spren are bonding again, you have younger spren who never knew Honor, and may not be bound to not bond with singers in the first place. 

Venli's bond is "special" only in that it's the first. I don't think it will be the last, or that there are any special conditions that must be met. 

12 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

Now the singers have another option other than Odium . 

They've always had an option other than Odium. The listeners ancestors clearly knew that. 

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

8 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Timbre did not live pre-recreance. It's very possible she did not live while Honor lived. 

Is there any chance that Timbre is Captain IKo daughter ? She said her grandfather was killed by human. Forsaking oaths and IKo dad is a dead-eye on his ship .

 

8 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Venli's bond is "special" only in that it's the first. I don't think it will be the last, or that there are any special conditions that must be met

I hope you are right . While I don’t think this is the last Singer Nahel bond . It may be lightspren are the only type that can bond with Singers because of the fact they hum to the Rythems or the anatomy of Singers . 

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

Is there any chance that Timbre is Captain IKo daughter ? She said her grandfather was killed by human. Forsaking oaths and IKo dad is a dead-eye on his ship .

I don't believe it's been explicitly confirmed (it may have) but it's almost certain. 

[Aon Tia]

Captain Ico also mentions that his daughter is off chasing stupid dreams.. 

20 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

While I don’t think this is the last Singer Nahel bond . It may be lightspren are the only type that can bond with Singers because of the fact they hum to the Rythems or the anatomy of Singers . 

I doubt that lightspren are the only ones. They are not the only ones that hum to rhythms. Pattern hums many times in a way that reminds me of rhythms and I am sure syl also hums sometimes which Kaladin has mentioned that sounds familiar.. I think he finds it familiar because Rlain talks to the rhythms.

Bonding with listeners was always possible but was probably forbidden by Honor. But now that one spren has done it, once others find out, I think others will be able to replicate as well and not just lightspren. 
 

Also Rlain most likely is already on his way to achieve the same..

Edited October 30, 2019 by The traveller

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

15 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Also Rlain most likely is already on his way t

I think it’s really Od that no one attacks Rlain in a large battle . Especially now he is warform . I know he has bridge 4 colors on and has a tattoo on his carapace helmet , but still in a battle I could see soldiers from another highlord attacking Rlain by mistake . He is a armed Listner in warform , unless he is glowing with Stormlight . That seems an obvious mistake 

[Aon Tia]

25 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

I think it’s really Od that no one attacks Rlain in a large battle . Especially now he is warform . I know he has bridge 4 colors on and has a tattoo on his carapace helmet , but still in a battle I could see soldiers from another highlord attacking Rlain by mistake . He is a armed Listner in warform , unless he is glowing with Stormlight . That seems an obvious mistake 

I don’t know when there has been any opportunity for anyone to mistake him for a singer and attack him... 

Earlier he was in bridge 4 and parahmen were accepted as slaves. At the battle of narak, he was kept supervised by Dalinar’s Soldiers and was asked to help with the maps but was not let out. 
At Urithiru, he was with bridge 4 all the time and they are very protective of him. And everyone knows who he is. 
And he was conspicuously absent during the battle for Thaylen city. 
Most likely, he has been sent on some spying mission by Kaladin. Or he may be looking for the remaining listeners but he does not even about the 1000 that escaped..

[KandraAllomancer]

12 hours ago, Calderis said:

The Lopen would like a word with you. 

I just took a quick look at Oathbringer chapter 121 (I assume this is what you're referring to) and I don't see Stormfather admitting any control over the Oaths (only the knowledge that Lopen wasn't ready before). Lopen's theories notwithstanding, I don't see how Stormfather would allow Syl's bond. Or Spark's. And what about Cultivation/Nightwatcher? And the Sibling?

[Aon Tia]

Stormfather might have a greater degree of control over the formation of bonds where the Honorspren are concerned. And not other orders..