+Oltux72 Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 We have indicators like this: Alethi pronunciation: [ˈdæ·lɪn·ar koˈlɪn] DA-lin-ar ko-LIN However we have this WoB: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/118-rfantasy-ama-2017/#e1847 According to it the kh is a fricative, not an obstruent as indicated there. So should this be changed to [xoˈlɪn] ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+King of Herdaz Posted October 27, 2019 Report Share Posted October 27, 2019 If it means anything, in the audiobook, all the kh's are pronounced as regular k's except for Khen the singer woman who they pronounce correctly. And while I've always "pronounced" it in my head while reading as a regularish k, I often think, based on this WoB, that it should be a Hebrew ches ח (fricative?) sound instead. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted October 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2019 6 hours ago, King of Herdaz said: If it means anything, in the audiobook, all the kh's are pronounced as regular k's except for Khen the singer woman who they pronounce correctly. Her name being Alethi I see no way this choice being defensible. Maybe they just were not ready to call a woman "Ken". 6 hours ago, King of Herdaz said: And while I've always "pronounced" it in my head while reading as a regularish k, Does your native language feature a /x/ ? 6 hours ago, King of Herdaz said: I often think, based on this WoB, that it should be a Hebrew ches ח (fricative?) sound instead. That sound is indeed fricative in all varieties of Hebrew. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+King of Herdaz Posted October 27, 2019 Report Share Posted October 27, 2019 2 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Does your native language feature a /x/ ? I'm Jewish and know Hebrew in which this is a common sound. I just never knew the technical term for it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted October 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2019 5 hours ago, King of Herdaz said: I'm Jewish and know Hebrew in which this is a common sound. I just never knew the technical term for it. So, does the coppermind need to be changed? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+King of Herdaz Posted October 27, 2019 Report Share Posted October 27, 2019 18 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: So, does the coppermind need to be changed? where? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted October 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2019 1 hour ago, King of Herdaz said: where? The pages for Dalinar, Adolin, Renarin, Jasnah and Navani. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+King of Herdaz Posted October 28, 2019 Report Share Posted October 28, 2019 14 hours ago, Oltux72 said: The pages for Dalinar, Adolin, Renarin, Jasnah and Navani. I took a look at editing the Dalinar page and was immediately scared away by the jungle of citations. If you want to edit it please do, just change it and cite this WoB. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jofwu Posted October 28, 2019 Report Share Posted October 28, 2019 I've argued that we need to remove these completely... I think the intent was to provide pronunciations the way Wikipedia would... But this doesn't strike me as very useful because pretty much nobody uses the actual Alethi pronunciations. Most of the time we don't even know the proper Alethi pronunciation because you can never be entirely sure how things get messed up in being anglicized. The only ones we really know the Alethi pronunciation for are those that Brandon has been directly asked about. And again, not even Brandon pronounces them that way. Maybe the person who created these was intending to just provide a "correct" pronunciation and labeled it "Alethi" for the sake of keeping things in-world. But if the intent isn't to actually provide the Alethi pronunciation I don't like pretending it is. And I don't think a "correct" pronunciation is useful 95% of the time. Honestly, the only purpose I can think for keeping it is to alert people that Jasnah, Jah Keved, and a few other proper nouns have a soft J. That's a pretty striking difference in pronunciation that's somewhat notable. But MOST names either have very unambiguous pronunciations or else people are happy to use their own version and not stress about it. I mean, are we really going to go in and list Nale's pronunciation as the IPA for either "Nail" or "Nalay"? Nope.We could label them "Brandon's pronunciation" but I don't like how out-of-world that is, and Brandon will be the first to tell you that his pronunciations are often "wrong" and that they are no more valid than any other reader's. I doubt a significant number of people learn about the J thing from these pronunciations on Coppermind, so I just don't see much value on this. The inaccuracy and/or inconsistency with using these the way we have bothers me more. If we DO want to keep them, my opinion is that we should use [proper] Alethi pronunciation (so, yes, use the /x/ for Kholin) and require references. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Smooth Posted October 28, 2019 Report Share Posted October 28, 2019 I agree with Jofwu. If we are going to include them, I think it's only appropriate where a specific WoB can be cited. Brandon has noted that even for him there is ambiguity in some pronunciations, and as Jof mentioned, he often uses "incorrect" variations at signings or readings. Having a different pronunciation in your headcanon really doesn't affect your enjoyment of the books, so for me if Brandon confirms an in-world pronunciation it's really more of a bit of trivia than anything else. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted October 28, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2019 5 hours ago, Jofwu said: I doubt a significant number of people learn about the J thing from these pronunciations on Coppermind, so I just don't see much value on this. The inaccuracy and/or inconsistency with using these the way we have bothers me more. If we DO want to keep them, my opinion is that we should use [proper] Alethi pronunciation (so, yes, use the /x/ for Kholin) and require references. Is it /xolin/ /xolɪn/ /xɔlin/ /xɔlɪn/ How is the stress? Does Alethi have phonemic vowel length? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Smooth Posted October 28, 2019 Report Share Posted October 28, 2019 Try this wob: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/249-waygate-foundation-write-a-thon/#e7310 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted October 29, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2019 8 hours ago, Big Smooth said: Try this wob: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/249-waygate-foundation-write-a-thon/#e7310 Thank you. I interpret this to stand for /xolin/, as -leen usually represents a closed /i/ and an /o/ is closer to /u/ than an /ɔ/ The stress pattern in the Alethi language seem to be a question of class and/or region judging by how the stress on Kaladin's name was discussed, so I would not add stress. I am afraid there is another can of worms. The vowel system of Alethi. A language with a closed /o/ and /e/ only would be unusual. Can we assume that Brandon copied the vowel system of Alethi from Korean, resulting in 7 primary vowels? I really cannot fit a good Semitic system to the vowels in the names. So I would propose /dalinar xolin/. There is really no good reason to assume that Alethi has an /æ/ at all. And all syllables show full vowels. It would really be surprising to see a schwa in it. The names and words are just too long and show no signs of dropping vowels or syllables. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Posted October 31, 2019 Report Share Posted October 31, 2019 I agree; let's remove the pronunciations. This is a can of worms we don't want to open. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.