Friendshipspren Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 Now what if someone were able to compound electrum and gain infinite access to determination. Would that be enough to gain multiple hemalurgic spikes and still maintain ur Autonomy ? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dancer Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 not really. Remember Ruin maid Vin be very determined to find the Atium cache even though everyone thought it was basically useless to everyone that was not a Mistborn at the time. If she was able to compound electrum it would only make things worse. It would be the same for everyone else. if the person controlling them can focus the victims determination then it's actually better for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 (edited) Turning people into sock puppets goes against Harmony's belief in free will so you'd need not only four spikes but you'd need to do something Sazed really doesn't want you to do in order to push him to that point. Note how he's not generally controlling Marsh despite the latter having way more than the minimum number of spikes and doing things Harmony's not completely cool with, like giving Marasi that book. That said, if you did put yourself into a situation where he wanted to control you, compounded determination isn't going to be enough. It doesn't matter how much you've stored up, you're not going to be able to match forces with a Shard. You might manage to repeat Marsh's stunt at the end of Hero of Ages and maintain enough control to resist for one crucial moment but that's gonna be it... and Sazed knows that trick so if he put you on his Crem List to the extent that controlling you happened, the first thing he'd probably do afterwards is make you rid yourself of any and all metalminds to prevent you from pulling it on him. Edited October 24, 2019 by Weltall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 Shardic control isn't a matter of determination. Hemalurgy rips open one's very soul, so not only does it not make any difference, it will also broadcast your intention to the Shard. A powerful Allomancer will still find it easier to Riot or Sooth you with high Hemalurgic damage. @PrinceGenocide, your theory about determination being able to protect against emotional Allomancy could have something: since we don't see anyone managing to Riot or Soothe Inquisitors but I think that's just Zinc and Copper Hemalurgy, which steal emotional fortitude and mental capacity respectively. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dancer Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Honorless said: @PrinceGenocide, your theory about determination being able to protect against emotional Allomancy could have something: since we don't see anyone managing to Riot or Soothe Inquisitors but I think that's just Zinc and Copper Hemalurgy, which steal emotional fortitude and mental capacity respectively. Kelsier does use emotional allomancy on the Inquisitor that was on Vin's trail to get his attention. This was at the beginning of the The Final Empire. Also Vin does successfully use emotional allomancy on Marsh when she was captured by Yomen. She would have successfully controled marsh if it wasn't for ruin blocking her. Edited October 24, 2019 by Dancer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aon Tia Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 @Honorless agreed. A pinnacle should be able to resist from emotional Allomancy very easily. An electrum compounder would be even better at it. But I don’t think it will enable you to resist harmony’s control, (if he were inclined to control you, in which case, you plan to do something very horrid, so we pray that he succeeds). although I agree with @Weltall that in that scenario, the compounder should be able to resist for just one moment, it is crucial to bid his time and make it worthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aon Tia Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Dancer said: Kelsier does use emotional allomancy on the Inquisitor that was on Vin's trail to get his attention. This was at the beginning of the The Final Empire. Also Vin does successfully use emotional allomancy on Marsh when she was captured by Yomen. She would have successfully controled marsh if it wasn't for ruin blocking her. Assuming that inquisitors had electrum feruchemy via hemallurgic spikes (we know several were missing), they will have to be actively tapping on their electrum metalmind, in order to resist pull of emotional Allomancy. Both the instances you have referred to, inquisitor and marsh had no reason to be tapping determination. I don’t think TLR would have given his inquisitors electrum feruchemy, because he relied on his ability to control them via brass in order to keep them subservient. Edited October 24, 2019 by The traveller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Dancer said: Kelsier does use emotional allomancy on the Inquisitor that was on Vin's trail to get his attention. This was at the beginning of the The Final Empire. Also Vin does successfully use emotional allomancy on Marsh when she was captured by Yomen. She would have successfully controled marsh if it wasn't for ruin blocking her. It didn't work. Err, it did work... It's complicated to explain.. But let me try again: it worked in the sense that Kelsier got the Inquisitor's attention. He didn't manage to truly affect the Inquisitor's emotion, he just let himself be detected. This made the Inquisitor switch his focus on to him, which was Kelsier's aim in the first place. In Marsh's case, the event you mentioned happened when Marsh was completely suppressed, she managed to sense that Marsh was still alive and that his body wasn't just being worn by Ruin, like he claimed; basically that Marsh was being possessed. And @The traveller, agreed. The Lord Ruler severely restricted what Feruchemical powers were transferred to the Inquisitors via Hemalurgy. We know Bronze, Pewter and Steel Hemalurgy were definitely given to the Inquisitors. Edited October 24, 2019 by Honorless 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dancer Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, Honorless said: It didn't work. Err, it did work... It's complicated to explain.. But let me try again: it worked in the sense that Kelsier got the Inquisitor's attention. He didn't manage to affect the Inquisitor's emotion, he just let himself be detected. This made the Inquisitor switch his focus on to him, which was Kelsier's aim in the first place. In Marsh's case, the case you mentioned happened when Marsh was completely suppressed, she managed to sense that Marsh was still alive and that his body wasn't just being worn by Ruin, like he claime; basically that Marsh was being possessed. My mistake. I thought you meant that emotional Allomancy just wouldn't work on Inquisitors not that no one has actually controlled them. In Kelsier's case he didn't know that you could do this, also he wasn't a Lerasium Mistborn and din't know about Duralumin so he wouldn't be able to do this anyway. I don't know if Zink or Brass Hemulargy would make controlling them harder or not. I always just assumed that it would make you immune to soothing and rioting like the Kundra are but not any less susceptible to being controlled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aon Tia Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 28 minutes ago, Honorless said: We know Bronze, Pewter and Steel Hemalurgy were definitely given to the Inquisitors. Hmm, i think they were given Gold feruchemy too, they did heal miraculously, did they not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, The traveller said: Hmm, i think they were given Gold feruchemy too, they did heal miraculously, did they not? Yup, let's include Brass and Gold Hemalurgy under there as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dancer Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 They were given Atium spikes as well. They could all either burn Atium or Electrum since any time Vin or Kelsier burnt Atium around the Inquisitors they would always get interference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aon Tia Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 Atium spikes? i do not remember... yup none of this means that they had electrum feruchemy.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 I think there's a fundamental misinterpretation of F-Electrum here, and it's one that I was under for a very long time. Unlike other fictions (Runelords, Green Lantern, etc) Determination does not equal Willpower in this case. Tapping F-Electrum does not make you super-determined or more focused or committed or anything like that. It's a Bi-Polar Disorder Slider-bar: Storing it makes you depressed, while tapping it sends you into a manic state. Extreme tapping, let alone compounding, is not going to be particularly beneficial in most circumstances. That being said, Ive seen theories that Tapping Identity would increase one's metaphyscial mass in more or less the way described, making you less susceptible to outside manipulation, but that's all RAFO territory for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aon Tia Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 9 minutes ago, Quantus said: Tapping F-Electrum does not make you super-determined or more focused or committed or anything like that. It's a Bi-Polar Disorder Slider-bar: Storing it makes you depressed, while tapping it sends you into a manic state. Yes I did note that on the coppermind. But it is the word determination!! It does not seem to go with what the description of what electrum does.. I guess RAFO.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 8 minutes ago, The traveller said: Yes I did note that on the coppermind. But it is the word determination!! It does not seem to go with what the description of what electrum does.. I guess RAFO.. Same. I think "Motivation" might be a more accurate term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aon Tia Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 Yes less motivation, you are depressed and more motivation, well may be you work in a frenzy.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted October 25, 2019 Report Share Posted October 25, 2019 My personal take on feruchemical determination is essential the mental aspects of pewter without the physical increases. Focus toward a goal that you will push towards (which is not uncommon in cases of mania. Disuading someone in a manic fit from doing what they've set their mind to is not a simple task), the ability to ignore pain, and distraction, and even rational concerns to reach what you've set upon doing. Storing would be insanely difficult I think... But yes, I think it could be used to basically do what Marsh did... But only against a human. Your not going to overpower a Shard's will. You're just not. Marsh didn't even do that he played like he was broken and inactive for months to earn himself a single moment of action... And then was put back under heel and went right back to being the controlled minion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aon Tia Posted October 25, 2019 Report Share Posted October 25, 2019 21 minutes ago, Calderis said: But only against a human. Your not going to overpower a Shard's will. You're just not. Marsh didn't even do that he played like he was broken and inactive for months to earn himself a single moment of action... And then was put back under heel and went right back to being the controlled minion. Yes extremely tough but may be possible for just a few seconds like Marsh did. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted October 26, 2019 Report Share Posted October 26, 2019 (edited) On 10/24/2019 at 5:29 PM, Dancer said: They were given Atium spikes as well. They could all either burn Atium or Electrum since any time Vin or Kelsier burnt Atium around the Inquisitors they would always get interference. That would come under cadmium Hemalurgy, which can steal gold, electrum, atium, malatium Allomancy (as cadmium and cerrobend were switched by Preservation to weaken Ruin while still maintaining the 16 Metals system) They used atium spikes to steal those as they did not know about cadmium and believed that atium stole Allomantic temporal powers. Good catch! Oof, no wonder TLR said that creating Inquisitors is expensive! Edited October 26, 2019 by Honorless 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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