Peacetime Surgebinders

[Pathfinder]

41 minutes ago, Karger said:

If that is actually a thing.  I personally think Brandon is not going to allow unlimited transportation any time soon.  It goes directly against his laws of magic.

Why would it be unlimited? We have already seen it is possible in the oathgates as well as:

Elantris spoilers

Spoiler

On Sel with the Aon Tia

You would still need stormlight to fuel it. Could you elaborate on what you mean by unlimited?

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

True it has not been confirmed yet, but I am still of the belief that Oathgates are a radiant fabrial of transportation. We have confirmation that fabrials are more limited in scope than what their actual radiant counterparts can do (radiant soulcasters versus fabrial soulcasters is the biggest one). We have numerous WoB that Jasnah is not as practiced with transportation as she is with transformation. If we were to take what Shallan can do with transformation as indicative of what all radiant tranformation can do, then we would figure soulcasting is far more limiting than what we know it can in fact accomplish. Further as per book and WoB, we have yet to see a fabrial version of a surge accomplish "more" than a radiant using the same. Oathgates are the only theoretical one at this time. So my mentality is, if a fabrial can do it, then so too can a radiant, and a radiant can do so better. 

I tend to think that Fabrials are going to develop similar to Cputer technology:  there will always be tasks that a Human can perform better (typically where variability and flexible judgement are needed) but there will also be tasks that Fabrials can do better, typically cases were the methods needed are clear and defined but complex and repetitive enough that the Human mind would not be well suited to accomplishing it all internally.  More or less the same trajectory I anticipate for Scadrian and Selish fabrials.

[Calderis]

Yeah... I think that fabrials are capable of extremely niche uses of the Surges, and that's their strength.

A Surgebinder is always going to be able to outperform a Fabrial due to versatility, but I absolutely think that fabrials are capable of doing things that Surgebinders (and voidbinders, and Voidbinding can be mimicked by fabrials as well) just can't do. 

Edit: to clarify, I absolutely think Teleportation is possible for a Radiant. I just disagree that a Surgebinder can do "anything" a Fabrial can. 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Calderis

[Aon Tia]

@Pathfinder thank you, I have been arguing the same point on other threads about the surge of transportation. If we have oathgates, then we will have radiant doing the same. I totally agree.

Edited October 31, 2019 by The traveller

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

I tend to think that Fabrials are going to develop similar to Cputer technology:  there will always be tasks that a Human can perform better (typically where variability and flexible judgement are needed) but there will also be tasks that Fabrials can do better, typically cases were the methods needed are clear and defined but complex and repetitive enough that the Human mind would not be well suited to accomplishing it all internally.  More or less the same trajectory I anticipate for Scadrian and Selish fabrials.

Computer technology develops through more complex programming. Brandon likened it to making a circle over and over and over again. Both the fabrial and the human can make a circle, but the human can shade it to give it dimension. The human can make an oval. The human can make the circle larger or smaller. For the computer to do any of those things requires additional programming to account for the additional complexity. A fabrial soulcaster has to attain savantism in order to soulcast a portion of something (Kaza interlude), yet Jasnah can soulcast words onto a piece of paper because she just happened to not have a pen on hand. A computer may be able to draw that circle over and over and over within the exact parameters it was set to, but that does not change that I can also draw a circle, and I can do a whole lot more with that circle. So I do not think personally it is accurate to say that a computer could do something that I myself could not. Could it be more efficient, or send more people from a predefined location to another without as much "work" as I would as a radiant? Sure! But I think it is a stretch to think the fabrial would have an entire ability more than what the original radiant could do. 

44 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Yeah... I think that fabrials are capable of extremely niche uses of the Surges, and that's their strength.

A Surgebinder is always going to be able to outperform a Fabrial due to versatility, but I absolutely think that fabrials are capable of doing things that Surgebinders (and voidbinders, and Voidbinding can be mimicked by fabrials as well) just can't do. 

Honestly I disagree. This isn't a resonance. It's not two powers interacting producing a third one that normally does not manifest. It is taking one power, and limiting it to repeat one function repeatedly (drawing a circle as per Brandon), and then saying a brand new ability unable to be accomplished normally would arise. That is where I disagree. It is saying a radiant normally can only go back and forth between the cognitive realm and the physical realm, but a fabrial which is built to mimic that surge, and be limited, can do something additional via direct transfer. For the reasons I responded to Quantus, I just do not see that being. But till it is confirmed, I guess to each their own. 

19 minutes ago, The traveller said:

@Pathfinder thank you, I have been arguing the same point on other threads about the surge of transportation. If we have oathgates, then we will have radiant doing the same. I totally agree.

Thank you!

Edited October 31, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Calderis]

10 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Honestly I disagree. This isn't a resonance. It's not two powers interacting producing a third one that normally does not manifest. It is taking one power, and limiting it to repeat one function repeatedly (drawing a circle as per Brandon), and then saying a brand new ability unable to be accomplished normally would arise. That is where I disagree. It is saying a radiant normally can only go back and forth between the cognitive realm and the physical realm, but a fabrial which is built to mimic that surge, and be limited, can do something additional via direct transfer. For the reasons I responded to Quantus, I just do not see that being. But till it is confirmed, I guess to each their own. 

I edited my post because I was not speaking of the Teleportation issue. I agree that that is definitely possible, though most likely expensive as hell. 

The way that fabrials function though, I think does allow for the creation of effects that a Surgebinder just cannot accomplish. 

Spanreeds, and paired fabrials in general are a good example of this. There are niche uses due to the manner of construction that are just not practical for a person to do that is where fabrials will shine as a magic system in their own rite. Because they are. They aren't merely a mimic system. 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Calderis

[Aon Tia]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

 

Spanreeds, and paired fabrials in general are a good example of this. There are niche uses due to the manner of construction that are just not practical for a person to do that is where fabrials will shine as a magic system in their own rite. Because they are. They aren't merely a mimic system. 

May be true but these are Fabrials which are developed in modern Roshar by trapping spren into gemstones. 
I have no doubt that these fabrials can do things that radiants can not because the basic principles on which these work is different from the way radiants or ancient fabrials worked. 
 

[Pathfinder]

12 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I edited my post because I was not speaking of the Teleportation issue. I agree that that is definitely possible, though most likely expensive as hell. 

The way that fabrials function though, I think does allow for the creation of effects that a Surgebinder just cannot accomplish. 

Spanreeds, and paired fabrialsin general are a good example of this. There are niche uses due to the manner of construction that are just not practical for a person to do that is where fabrials will shine as a magic system in their own rite. Because they are. They aren't merely a mimic system. 

Ah, my intention was speaking primarily and only regarding "radiant" fabrials that are used to mimic surges. I thought (correct me if I am wrong), the reason the other fabrials differ is they are using lesser spren to come up with a variety of functions (though we still do not know how the fabrials that mimic radiant surges are made). If I understand your post accurately now, then I completely agree. The level of utility fabrial creation overall (detecting fabrials, attracting fabrials, and so on) can accomplish things outside of surges. 

 

edit: honestly I am kind of surprised no one has just blatantly said to Sanderson "can a willshaper or elsecaller do instant transportation from one location to another like oathgates can?" Unless someone has and they have been RAFO because we will be seeing Willshapers next book?

Edited October 31, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

You would still need stormlight to fuel it. Could you elaborate on what you mean by unlimited?

That has has severe limitations.  Elantris spoilers

Spoiler

It must be used exactly or you die and can only be done effectively in one place(Elantris)

If you give every willshaper transportation that works that way they could go to anywhere on Roshar from anywhere.  If they can take others with them then they automatically can easily mount invasions of anywhere that can't be stopped.   Even if they can't the fortifications become largely useless against them.  They can do damage and then easily depart the battlefield.  Imagine Oathbringer's Kholinar mission if they had even one willshaper along.  Communication becomes easy just got enough stormlight or wait for a highstorm.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Unless someone has and they have been RAFO because we will be seeing Willshapers next book?

He would totally RAFO that question.

[Pathfinder]

34 minutes ago, Karger said:

That has has severe limitations.  Elantris spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

It must be used exactly or you die and can only be done effectively in one place(Elantris)

There is nothing preventing:

Spoiler

Calculating the distance to a location via scouting and mathematics, and then using Tia over and over again, or multiple times at once to transport explosives to multiple locations with short fuses to take out fortifications, or targets. Better yet anyone who tries to lay siege to Elantris will have countless bombs transported around their catapults, guard towers, command tents, and so on. Nothing to prevent transporting an army behind enemy lines. Nothing to prevent transporting an assassin deep into enemy territory. The only requirements is calculating the location for the target. 

 

Conversely potentially a radiant has to pin point where they have to go (who knows, maybe the spren help), and use a finite amount of stormlight. Seems in line to me. 

34 minutes ago, Karger said:

If you give every willshaper transportation that works that way they could go to anywhere on Roshar from anywhere.  If they can take others with them then they automatically can easily mount invasions of anywhere that can't be stopped.   Even if they can't the fortifications become largely useless against them.  They can do damage and then easily depart the battlefield.  Imagine Oathbringer's Kholinar mission if they had even one willshaper along.  Communication becomes easy just got enough stormlight or wait for a highstorm.

He would totally RAFO that question.

They still need enough stormlight to accomplish those goals. Why are there not huge cadres of windrunners flying everywhere? Because they run out of stormlight, and have to ride a storm to have enough. There is a different amount of stormlight for the fabrial to transport everyone on the platform, versus just those in the control building. And that is between two fixed locations. Why would it be unreasonable to expect the further you teleport the more stormlight is required? The more people you transport, the more stormlight required? We know it takes more stormlight the larger the object is to lash. We know it takes more stormlight the more number of lashings you add to an object. And we know it takes variable amount of stormlight depending on the type of lash (quarter, half, full), so why would not the same stand for transportation? If you transport too far, you won't have enough stormlight to get back. If you don't have enough stormlight, you won't get there to begin with. If you aren't practiced or skilled enough, you may end up miles off course. If you have enough to make it there, but not enough to make it back with everyone? What if there is a larkin, or another like it that is used on you when you get there, and now you cannot get out?

While with Elantris:

Spoiler

All they have to do is start at Elantris to get a long range teleport. They can do that as much as they want. True it could be argued it is one way, but as explained above, you can do a whole lot more with unlimited one way, than limited resource heavy two way. 

 

[Karger]

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

They still need enough stormlight to accomplish those goals. Why are there not huge cadres of windrunners flying everywhere? Because they run out of stormlight, and have to ride a storm to have enough. There is a different amount of stormlight for the fabrial to transport everyone on the platform, versus just those in the control building. And that is between two fixed locations. Why would it be unreasonable to expect the further you teleport the more stormlight is required? The more people you transport, the more stormlight required? We know it takes more stormlight the larger the object is to lash. We know it takes more stormlight the more number of lashings you add to an object. And we know it takes variable amount of stormlight depending on the type of lash (quarter, half, full), so why would not the same stand for transportation? If you transport too far, you won't have enough stormlight to get back. If you don't have enough stormlight, you won't get there to begin with. If you aren't practiced or skilled enough, you may end up miles off course. If you have enough to make it there, but not enough to make it back with everyone? What if there is a larkin, or another like it that is used on you when you get there, and now you cannot get out?

I would be somewhat OK with a logarithmic investiture cost increase based on distance.  However even just allowing a few feat would be kind of OP in combat.

[Calderis]

9 minutes ago, Karger said:

I would be somewhat OK with a logarithmic investiture cost increase based on distance.  However even just allowing a few feat would be kind of OP in combat.

I don't think there is a cost increase. But I also think that's its going to be a near useless ability other than for a means of escape. 

Quote

Questioner

Is Jasnah still alive at the end of the book, since the whole scene where she kind of appears...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, she is.

Argent

*photo pause* Why does she take so long to come back?

Brandon Sanderson

Because Elsecalling is not precise even if you know what you are doing, which she doesn't.

Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014)

Pinpoint Teleportation for combat use would require a precision that the surge is incapable of providing. 

[Aon Tia]

10 hours ago, Karger said:

If you give every willshaper transportation that works that way they could go to anywhere on Roshar from anywhere.

I don't think so. Apart from the stormlight fueling constraints mentioned earlier by @Pathfinder, which i totally agree with, I also think that it is going to be much more complicated than that!! For instance, You might be required to know the exact location and where you will end up, may be you would be required to picture the location in your head, you can not just instantaneously appear anywhere you wish merely using coordinates, it can be very dangerous, you might get stuck up inside a wall, or in a bonfire, or in the middle of the lake. 

 

10 hours ago, Karger said:

If they can take others with them then they automatically can easily mount invasions of anywhere that can't be stopped.

It might not be possible to take others with them, It might be very expensive to do that too. It is also possible that this ability is granted only to those who have achieved 4th or 5th ideal which anyway is very rare. So few radiants will achieve the ability to travel significant distances that it can not be used for mounting invasions. Besides the spren are always there to monitor the uses of these surges. I do not think they will allow these powers to be used aggressively without provocation. 

 

10 hours ago, Karger said:

Even if they can't the fortifications become largely useless against them.  They can do damage and then easily depart the battlefield. 

Windrunners and Skybreakers have already made battlements largely useless. So, i don't see what great difference will it make if the willshapers and elsecallers do the same too.

 

10 hours ago, Karger said:

Imagine Oathbringer's Kholinar mission if they had even one willshaper along.  Communication becomes easy just got enough stormlight or wait for a highstorm.

We don't know that for sure. Somethings might have been easier but use of transportation, like kaladin's flying, might have attracted the screaming spren instantly and blown up their cover completely. And again, i think one willshaper may be able to carry at max one other person with them, so the rest of them would have been equally screwed. And the idea was never to run away, come the next highstorm. If they had wanted to do that, they could have taken everyone out and flown back to urithiru with kaladin, skar and drehy. In fact, Kaladin had suggested doing that very thing. But they had stayed trying to gain access to the oathgate. Even if, the willshaper would have managed to reach the oathgate central building, they still would not have worked the oathgate properly and would have landed up in Shadesmaar. 

 

7 hours ago, Karger said:

However even just allowing a few feat would be kind of OP in combat

I wish but i think managing teleportation at such close quarters could be very difficult, would require to much precision and you might end up with an enemy sword through your middle while appearing. Granted that will not kill you but you will waste precious stormlight healing yourself.

Edited November 1, 2019 by The traveller

[Karger]

6 hours ago, The traveller said:

I don't think so. Apart from the stormlight fueling constraints mentioned earlier by @Pathfinder, which i totally agree with, I also think that it is going to be much more complicated than that!! For instance, You might be required to know the exact location and where you will end up, may be you would be required to picture the location in your head, you can not just instantaneously appear anywhere you wish merely using coordinates, it can be very dangerous, you might get stuck up inside a wall, or in a bonfire, or in the middle of the lake. 

That does not stop them from appearing a few hundred feat above wherever they want.  During a highstrom you have unlimited stormlight so that kind of cost is not worth much as real costs are based on scarcity. 

14 hours ago, Calderis said:

Pinpoint Teleportation for combat use would require a precision that the surge is incapable of providing. 

Elsecalling is not necessarily the same thing as physical realm transportation and it is not what @pathfinder was suggesting.  The likely reason that Elsecalling is so hit or miss is that the CR and PR don't have an exact one to one correlation.

6 hours ago, The traveller said:

It might not be possible to take others with them, It might be very expensive to do that too. It is also possible that this ability is granted only to those who have achieved 4th or 5th ideal which anyway is very rare. So few radiants will achieve the ability to travel significant distances that it can not be used for mounting invasions. Besides the spren are always there to monitor the uses of these surges. I do not think they will allow these powers to be used aggressively without provocation. 

Again set up the Kholinar mission with one third level willshaper along.  You can easily get to the oathgate platform and activate it with only a visual.  You can get your man(gender neutral) into and out of the city at will.  Communication stops being a problem.  Sure the spren can detect the use of stormlight but you just use it once and then leave on foot.  That would be really hard to pin down.

6 hours ago, The traveller said:

We don't know that for sure. Somethings might have been easier but use of transportation, like kaladin's flying, might have attracted the screaming spren instantly and blown up their cover completely

Transports away nothing for those spren to find.  Transports to a location.  Does going to a place make a detectable pulse that the screemers can hear?  The use of investiture happened on the other end.  Even if it doesn't you have finished using once you get there so you can find a place to hide pretty quickly.

6 hours ago, The traveller said:

And again, i think one willshaper may be able to carry at max one other person with them, so the rest of them would have been equally screwed

Not really.  The others could get in through the same way they did or just flown in once they got the information from the WIllshaper.  Try this.  Willshaper is flown most of the way there.  Willshaper tries to activate the oathgate(which they can get to easily and before anyone can stop them) they realize that the oathgate is nonfunctional as it dumps them in shadesmar.  They transport back report.  Windrunners go in get Gavinor and leave.  Willshapers are great at avoiding problems if you give them this kind of power.

6 hours ago, The traveller said:

I wish but i think managing teleportation at such close quarters could be very difficult, would require to much precision and you might end up with an enemy sword through your middle while appearing. Granted that will not kill you but you will waste precious stormlight healing yourself.

Just keep going strait up then.  The lack of precision will actually be helpful as no flying opponent will be able to pinpoint you.  Also everyone in this discussion read Jumper.  You will get an idea for how dangerous teleporters can be.

[Aon Tia]

47 minutes ago, Karger said:

That does not stop them from appearing a few hundred feat above wherever they want.

And then what they will do? They will fall almost immediately, they do not have gravity manipulation. They can not control where they fall also, anything could be below them. They can survive it sure but it again requires a lot of storm light.

I am not saying that it will not work, but I am saying it is not as super OP as you think. There will be enough difficulty to make it interesting. 
 

As to the rest, it is Very much possible that later we find powers that, if were known to KRs earlier would have made things easier for KRs in the early books. 

[Karger]

34 minutes ago, The traveller said:

And then what they will do? They will fall almost immediately, they do not have gravity manipulation. They can not control where they fall also, anything could be below them. They can survive it sure but it again requires a lot of storm light.

Not that much.  Also what could be below them that would be that bad?

35 minutes ago, The traveller said:

As to the rest, it is Very much possible that later we find powers that, if were known to KRs earlier would have made things easier for KRs in the early books. 

But so easy as to make back five books impossible to set up conflicts?  Try and make a conflict in which teleporting Willshapers could not fairly easily turn things around and win that does not involve god level stuff.  Also the fused have not done any such thing despite it(for example) allowing easy access to the gemstone archive, a smart way to avoid loosing honor's drop during the battle(just teleport far away with it), an easy way into Urithiru(to for example assassinate Dalinar) or if that place has mystical defenses just have T report when he is going to leave and have a teleporting fused squadron take him out not that hard.

[Pathfinder]

 

2 hours ago, Karger said:

That does not stop them from appearing a few hundred feat above wherever they want.  During a highstrom you have unlimited stormlight so that kind of cost is not worth much as real costs are based on scarcity. 

When a windrunner is using a highstorm to fly, it is because (to me), they are using the highstorm to continually fuel the lash they are maintaining. From what we have seen of Szeth and Kaladin, there is a limit to how much stormlight a radiant can hold at a time. They draw as much stormlight as they can till they are "filled to the brim" and after they use that stormlight, they need to draw more. With a highstorm, they can continually "top off" from the highstorm as they fly with it, channeling that stormlight to the lashing to maintain it. That (to me) would not happen with transportation. It seems to me more of a one and done moment. Could an elsecaller/willshaper standing in a highstorm keep transporting in multiple waves? Sure! But that is a difference to me between transporting 1,000,000 in one go, versus transporting 100, then another 100, then another 100, then another 100, then another 100, then the highstorm has passed. Transportation seems to work as a "gate" but not one that is maintained. As in it opens, you pass through, it closes. It is not a passage way that can be held open. The best example I can give is the novel Jumper (not the movie), so unfortunately if you have not read the book, the analogy is difficult to elaborate on. 

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Elsecalling is not necessarily the same thing as physical realm transportation and it is not what @pathfinder was suggesting.  The likely reason that Elsecalling is so hit or miss is that the CR and PR don't have an exact one to one correlation.

And personally for all the reasons I already gave, I disagree. I do not see why oathgates should be capable of instant transmission, but not radiants who have the surge. 

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Again set up the Kholinar mission with one third level willshaper along.  You can easily get to the oathgate platform and activate it with only a visual.  You can get your man(gender neutral) into and out of the city at will.  Communication stops being a problem.  Sure the spren can detect the use of stormlight but you just use it once and then leave on foot.  That would be really hard to pin down.

It has already been commented the inaccuracy of transportation. Regardless they would not need the oathgates if they had a willshaper to begin with. They could have moved the troops closer to then march on Kholinar. Just like you do not need soulcasters the fabrials as much if you have a radiant who can soulcast. Just like you do not need regrowth fabrials when you have radiants with regrowth. Surge fabrials allow for greater versatility (like in the vision, the windrunner, and the other radiant have the fabrial to heal, so they wouldn't have to bring an extra person), but depending on your numbers, and access, it will affect how you employ your tactics. But changing tactics does not make something broken. It means thinking of ways to use the abilities, and how to deal with them. Oathgates allow you to get from point A to point B every time with an upper limit. Radiants allow you to go from point A to the general area of point B, with an upper limit. Transporting to an enemy fortification is no different than windrunners flying over and dropping in. 

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Transports away nothing for those spren to find.  Transports to a location.  Does going to a place make a detectable pulse that the screemers can hear?  The use of investiture happened on the other end.  Even if it doesn't you have finished using once you get there so you can find a place to hide pretty quickly.

Jasnah was glowing with the after image of Ivory spinning around her when she arrived to run into Hoid. I think the screamers would most definitely notice that. 

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Not really.  The others could get in through the same way they did or just flown in once they got the information from the WIllshaper.  Try this.  Willshaper is flown most of the way there.  Willshaper tries to activate the oathgate(which they can get to easily and before anyone can stop them) they realize that the oathgate is nonfunctional as it dumps them in shadesmar.  They transport back report.  Windrunners go in get Gavinor and leave.  Willshapers are great at avoiding problems if you give them this kind of power.

Willshaper is flown there. I am assuming you are positing the willshaper used line of sight from a cliffside or such to scout the city to transport in? So willshaper transports in, and ends up outside the palace for instance (as we said it is not pinpoint accuracy). Now the screamers zero in on the willshaper, calling all the corrupted guards to his or her location. He or she either has to fight their way to the oathgate, where Sja-anat contacted Shallan, and no one else, so using the oathgate would have killed the willshaper as originally intended. Further, Odium thought Shallan was an elsecaller. If it was as easy as you posit, why would Odium have let things go the way they did? Odium's plan was this:

1. Windrunner, elsecaller, and general group show up

2. Group fights to the oathgate

3. Group activates oathgate, killing them and the troops on the other end.

 

Instead Shallan was able to make contact with Sja-anat. She had the oathgate do something that radiants we know can do, shunt them into the cognitive realm, instead of killing them as intended. Even if an elsecaller could only go back and forth between the cognitive realm and the physical realm, Odium's plan should not have worked (not including sja-anat), because the elsecaller could have just transitioned back to the physical. So hopping around like you are claiming can be done if transportation can teleport, is not as simple as that. 

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Just keep going strait up then.  The lack of precision will actually be helpful as no flying opponent will be able to pinpoint you.  Also everyone in this discussion read Jumper.  You will get an idea for how dangerous teleporters can be.

Ah so you have! Sorry I am going through post by post. In Jumper, the user has multiple things that defy physics that benefit them

1. All a Jumper needs is a clear image of a location for pinpoint accuracy in teleporting. That includes an old video, despite things having potentially changes at the target location

2. A jumper loses all momentum, unless they intend to have momentum. So if someone physically jumps off a cliff, and then teleports to the ground, they will not impact with the same momentum they built from falling before they teleported. This is only changed by the main character's daughter, who learns if you intend to maintain the momentum, she can build up the force via multiple jumps. That breaks physics.

3. It does not matter where the location is in relation to the jumper, nor what the location is. So a jumper can jump from sea level to mount everest, and be fine. A jumper can jump from standing still, to a plane in flight. A jumper can have picture of the inside of a plane while it is landed and stationary, wait till it takes off, and jump right into the cabin while it is in motion with the same picture. All of that again breaks physics.

 

So I do not think it is fair to compare the way a jumper works to how transportation potentially works, to say it is broken. A jumper by definition is broken because a whole lot of what they do break physics, and works heavily in their favor. 

1 hour ago, The traveller said:

And then what they will do? They will fall almost immediately, they do not have gravity manipulation. They can not control where they fall also, anything could be below them. They can survive it sure but it again requires a lot of storm light.

I agree which is why I think using the jumper analogy for power usage (other than explaining the gate thing) is faulty. Jumpers don't have to worry about that, which unfairly gives them advantages that I do not think transportation would have, so for Karger to say transportation would be broken, and using the jumper rules is faulty. 

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I am not saying that it will not work, but I am saying it is not as super OP as you think. There will be enough difficulty to make it interesting. 
 

I agree. 

50 minutes ago, Karger said:

Not that much.  Also what could be below them that would be that bad?

For the three reasons I explained that jumpers "jump". If you jump from a standing position onto a moving object, you should go splat. if you jump from moving to a stationary place, you should go splat. If you jump to a vehicle that was stationary that is now moving, you should go splat. That is why. 

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But so easy as to make back five books impossible to set up conflicts?  Try and make a conflict in which teleporting Willshapers could not fairly easily turn things around and win that does not involve god level stuff.  Also the fused have not done any such thing despite it(for example) allowing easy access to the gemstone archive, a smart way to avoid loosing honor's drop during the battle(just teleport far away with it), an easy way into Urithiru(to for example assassinate Dalinar) or if that place has mystical defenses just have T report when he is going to leave and have a teleporting fused squadron take him out not that hard.

We all have, but you are treating transportation like it is Jumping, which it is not. 

 

 

edit: I also think it is reasonable to not think transportation works like jumping regarding moving objects because we already see regarding time bubbles in alloy of law:

Spoiler

If you do a bubble on a large object like a train, it is considered part of the train. However, if you do it in a smaller object, like a carriage, it considers part of the earth, not the carriage, and the carriage still moves forward while the bubble remains stationary in relation to the earth. 

So using that as a rule brick, you are not teleporting around in midair without consequence for transportation. 

Edited November 1, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

When a windrunner is using a highstorm to fly, it is because (to me), they are using the highstorm to continually fuel the lash they are maintaining. From what we have seen of Szeth and Kaladin, there is a limit to how much stormlight a radiant can hold at a time. They draw as much stormlight as they can till they are "filled to the brim" and after they use that stormlight, they need to draw more.

That is not my issue.  My point is that the cost of just transporting the self is nothing during a highstorm other then a clear idea of where you want to go.

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

And personally for all the reasons I already gave, I disagree. I do not see why oathgates should be capable of instant transmission, but not radiants who have the surge. 

We are talking about elsecalling.  Moving back and forth between the CR and physical realm.  I was explaining why that WoB does not indicate that pointpoint transportation is impossible.  Where does instantaneousness come into this?

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Jasnah was glowing with the after image of Ivory spinning around her when she arrived to run into Hoid. I think the screamers would most definitely notice that. 

OK this is relevant.  However Jasnah may have been expecting danger of some kind on the other side and decided to make the transition while infused.  She could also imidiatly douse and find a hiding place.

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Transporting to an enemy fortification is no different than windrunners flying over and dropping in. 

Yes it is.  Windrunners can be shot at while dropping in.  Willshapers can.

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Willshaper is flown there. I am assuming you are positing the willshaper used line of sight from a cliffside or such to scout the city to transport in? So willshaper transports in, and ends up outside the palace for instance (as we said it is not pinpoint accuracy).

The Willshaper could probably just go to the palace roof to scout the platform.  Transport onto or above the platform from there.  Willshaper will activate before anyone can do much of anything.  Activating the gate would push the Willshaper into the CR.  However willshaper can just transport out of the sea of beads or add velocity using transportation to push themselves strait up.  Even if that does not work their spren could probably pull them out.  Then they just wait for a highstorm and transit back or transport to the river and walk to Cultivation's perpendicularity.

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

1. All a Jumper needs is a clear image of a location for pinpoint accuracy in teleporting. That includes an old video, despite things having potentially changes at the target location

Not true.  A Jumper needs to have actually visited a place or have a clear view of it to get there.  Old videos are for jogging your memory.

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

2. A jumper loses all momentum, unless they intend to have momentum. So if someone physically jumps off a cliff, and then teleports to the ground, they will not impact with the same momentum they built from falling before they teleported. This is only changed by the main character's daughter, who learns if you intend to maintain the momentum, she can build up the force via multiple jumps. That breaks physics.

Cent does this by realizing that changing latitudes means she is already going at a significantly different speeds(this would also be true on Roshar or Elantris).  Otherwise your willshapers are going to crash into things at extremely high velocities.

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

3. It does not matter where the location is in relation to the jumper, nor what the location is. So a jumper can jump from sea level to mount everest, and be fine. A jumper can jump from standing still, to a plane in flight. A jumper can have picture of the inside of a plane while it is landed and stationary, wait till it takes off, and jump right into the cabin while it is in motion with the same picture. All of that again breaks physics.

That would not work.  The Jumper would have to actually be on the plane.  Also all teleportation breaks physics.  Why are you so concerned about it when discussing magic.

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

So I do not think it is fair to compare the way a jumper works to how transportation potentially works, to say it is broken. A jumper by definition is broken because a whole lot of what they do break physics, and works heavily in their favor. 

The same could be said for a Windrunner.  Please explain what you mean by break physics when you are talking about people with MAGIC.

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

For the three reasons I explained that jumpers "jump". If you jump from a standing position onto a moving object, you should go splat.

Unless you have Stormlight in which case you should be fine.  Also what kind of moving objects?  Roshar does not really have cars or trains.

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

if you jump from moving to a stationary place, you should go splat

If you carry your speed the speed of the sun will likely leave you stranded in space(the sun moves at around 200k/s around the outside of the galexy and it moves the earth with it).  I fail to understand why the earth moving, the sun moving, and a train moving are all different.  If we go by Mistborn bubble rules then they should be fine.  You will appear a couple dozen feat up and be fine thanks to Stormlgiht.

 

[Pathfinder]

51 minutes ago, Karger said:

That is not my issue.  My point is that the cost of just transporting the self is nothing during a highstorm other then a clear idea of where you want to go.

You may be misunderstanding my point. Let us say you have a gallon jug. You fill it from a water hose. You can fill it as often as you want, but you can only use that jug's amount at a time. So you are still limited in what you can do. So to extend this to what I mean with the surges

 

lashing with a highstorm

1. fill jug with water

2. use jug to fill the lashing so it continues to lash

3. jug is already refilled from being in highstorm

4. use jug to fill the lashing so it continues to lash

 

transportation with a highstorm

1. fill jug with water

2. use jug to transport a set number of people

3. limited number of people vanish

4. jug gets refilled from being in highstorm

5. use jug to transport a new set number of people

Quote

We are talking about elsecalling.  Moving back and forth between the CR and physical realm.  I was explaining why that WoB does not indicate that pointpoint transportation is impossible.  Where does instantaneousness come into this?

That is what teleportation is. Instant travel between two points. 

Quote

OK this is relevant.  However Jasnah may have been expecting danger of some kind on the other side and decided to make the transition while infused.  She could also imidiatly douse and find a hiding place.

Jasnah was surprised to see Hoid there, so she was not expecting. 

 

Words of Radiance page 1078

The air in front of him blurred, as if heated in a ring near the ground. A streak of light spun about the ring, forming a wall five or sex feet high. It faded immediately - really, it was just an afterimage, as if something glowing had spun in the circle very quickly.....

She groaned a long groan, then looked to the side, where Wit stood. 

He grinned at her.

She stabbed her hand out in the blink of an eye, mist twisting around her arm and snapping into the form of a long, thin sword pointed at Wit's neck

Quote

Yes it is.  Windrunners can be shot at while dropping in.  Willshapers can.

As shown from Jasnah returning, teleporting in can be noticed, and it takes the teleporter a bit to orientate themselves. So time enough to surround/fire upon.

Quote

The Willshaper could probably just go to the palace roof to scout the platform.  Transport onto or above the platform from there.  Willshaper will activate before anyone can do much of anything.  Activating the gate would push the Willshaper into the CR.  However willshaper can just transport out of the sea of beads or add velocity using transportation to push themselves strait up.  Even if that does not work their spren could probably pull them out.  Then they just wait for a highstorm and transit back or transport to the river and walk to Cultivation's perpendicularity.

Again, for the reasons I presented, the screamers should be all over the willshaper. 

Quote

Not true.  A Jumper needs to have actually visited a place or have a clear view of it to get there.  Old videos are for jogging your memory.

It has been a while since I have read the books, but from what I recall there were quite a few instances where David got places he had not been before based on the visual. 

Quote

Cent does this by realizing that changing latitudes means she is already going at a significantly different speeds(this would also be true on Roshar or Elantris).  Otherwise your willshapers are going to crash into things at extremely high velocities.

That's my point. Originally David tests it, and realizes momentum is not maintained. It was only when Cent focused on it, did the momentum become maintained, which is why she was able to build such velocities. Since the transportation user would not be transporting onto anything, the frame of reference would be the planet, so if a transporter (the best word I can use for someone using the surge of transportation), transported from standing still on the ground into midair, and then started to fall, even for a second, and then they transported again, that momentum from falling for even a second would be maintained. So if they fall for another second elsewhere, that is the velocity increasing. Do this enough times, and the transporter has the velocity of someone falling for an extended period of time. The transporter then transports back to the ground, and all that velocity catches up, and they touch the ground with that force and go splat. A more accurate illustration of this would be the video game portals. Jumper the book literally states jumping does not work the way it should, unless you consciously make yourself think that way. Otherwise when David tested it out by jumping off the cliff and teleporting to the ground, he should have (depending on how long he fell) broke his legs. Just like if David teleported from an airplane in flight, to the ground, he should have continued flying forward as 2 or 3 hundred miles per hour since he was going at the speed relative to the plane and turned into paste when he teleported to the ground. Even if that did not occur, by teleporting back to the last location that picture referenced, he should have ended up in midair as the plane continued in its flight. But that is not what happened. He teleported right back into the plane, even though its location relative to the planet changed. He notes this, and comments on how it breaks these concepts. 

Quote

That would not work.  The Jumper would have to actually be on the plane.  Also all teleportation breaks physics.  Why are you so concerned about it when discussing magic.

David tested the plane issue while hunting the terrorist. He can leave a plane in flight, and return to it, regardless the sudden changes in relative speed, and location. 

Why am I concerned? Is because via the reference I gave in mistborn, it does matter in Sanderson's Cosemere. it may not matter in the Jumper world's abilities, but it is reasonable to believe it would in Sanderson's with time bubbles as reference. 

Quote

The same could be said for a Windrunner.  Please explain what you mean by break physics when you are talking about people with MAGIC.

I just did above. 9 times out of 10, Sanderson keeps his magic grounded in physics. When it breaks physics, there are still rules for the most part. The time bubbles is an example of this. It depends on the relation to an object. In most cases the planet, or a sufficiently large enough body.

Quote

Unless you have Stormlight in which case you should be fine.  Also what kind of moving objects?  Roshar does not really have cars or trains.

That's my point. They do not have planes or cars yet, so what is judged relative is the planet, which is why if the transporter did you transportation into the air trick, they would go splat. 

Quote

If you carry your speed the speed of the sun will likely leave you stranded in space(the sun moves at around 200k/s around the outside of the galexy and it moves the earth with it).  I fail to understand why the earth moving, the sun moving, and a train moving are all different.  If we go by Mistborn bubble rules then they should be fine.  You will appear a couple dozen feat up and be fine thanks to Stormlgiht.

I will try to explain this again, and see if I can pull up the WoB that support/back this up.

The reason why someone using a time bubble isn't immediately shunted out of the bubble (the bubble being stationary while the earth continues to move), is because since the earth is a large enough body to act relative to, the bubble is "attached" to the earth, and moves relative to the earth. That is why:

Spoiler

On the train Marasi was able to use cadmium without issue, because the bubble attached to the train and moved relative to the train, while on the stage coach she used it, and the coach was too small, so the bubble was still attached relative to the earth, which resulted in the stage coach still moving while the bubble was stationary (attached relative to the earth), resulting in them passing the barrier. 

So if the transportation takes place relative to the earth, then any change in momentum relative to the earth would be maintained, and result in splat. 

 

edit: these aren't the best WoB on time bubbles, but there are a whole lot and I do not have the time to dig so deeply to find the exact ones I am thinking of:

 

Kurkistan

Okay, so I'm contractually obligated to ask about time bubbles one more time.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Kurkistan

So what's up with frame of reference for time bubbles; in that obviously if you make a bubble and it's still it's not really still, like time moves differently but--

Brandon Sanderson

We deal with that a little bit in Era 2 Book 2 [Shadows of Self], where we talk about the fact that you know-- obviously the bubble is moving with the planet. So they're not-- the frame of reference is not absolute.

Kurkistan

Yeah.

Brandon Sanderson

And so we talk about sorta' the idea of mass and momentum and time bubbles and things like that.

Kurkistan

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

For instance you can make a time bubble on a train.

Kurkistan

Oh and it stays on the train?!

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but when you start catching stuff off of the train, it's gonna' jar each time, and it's probably going to ruin your time bubble, right?

Kurkistan

So does it get it's "anchor" from-- it's asking all the things that are within it what they think "still" is?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. That's a good way of looking at it. Frame of reference for the Cognitive things around. Make sense?

Kurkistan

Okay, the things around or the things within it, specifically?

Brandon Sanderson

The things that it's cutting into, specifically, but yeah.

Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015)

 

 

Kurkistan

If you are standing inside of a time bubble, and throw a spear out of the bubble, what happens to that spear as it traverses the border of the bubble? Are different parts of the spear ever in different "time zones," going fundamentally different speeds?

On that line of reasoning, what would happen to a train and its occupants if Marasi stood next to railroad tracks holding up a Cadmium bubble while that train sped by?

Brandon Sanderson

In general, a large object going through a time bubble is not going to notice. An object is either in or out, and it depends in part on how the object views itself. People inside the train would be inside of its influence, and wouldn't notice the bubble. The spear would go from one to the other, but would never be in both.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012) Edited November 1, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

36 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

You may be misunderstanding my point. Let us say you have a gallon jug. You fill it from a water hose. You can fill it as often as you want, but you can only use that jug's amount at a time. So you are still limited in what you can do. So to extend this to what I mean with the surges

Assuming that the cost of using transportation on yourself is less then a jug that means that you can during a highstorm transport yourself for free along with as much remaining in the jug that you have.

36 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

That is what teleportation is. Instant travel between two points. 

I know but it is not really relevant.  We were not arguing over weather or not Elscalling is instantaneous we were trying to figure out why it is imprecise.  I put forward a potential solution.

36 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

As shown from Jasnah returning, teleporting in can be noticed, and it takes the teleporter a bit to orientate themselves. So time enough to surround/fire upon.

Only if you know exactly where and when they are going to show up.  Jasnah oriented herself almost instantaneously.

36 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Again, for the reasons I presented, the screamers should be all over the willshaper. 

Screemers can't hurt you.  It takes time for people who can to find you.  During that time you can open the oathgate.

36 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

It has been a while since I have read the books, but from what I recall there were quite a few instances where David got places he had not been before based on the visual. 

A visual he could actually see from where he was.  One of the first things he tries in the first books is to go to a place via color photo.  It does not work.  He later makes a video library to record useful places to jog his memory latter.

36 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

That's my point. Originally David tests it, and realizes momentum is not maintained. It was only when Cent focused on it, did the momentum become maintained, which is why she was able to build such velocities. Since the transportation user would not be transporting onto anything, the frame of reference would be the planet, so if a transporter (the best word I can use for someone using the surge of transportation), transported from standing still on the ground into midair, and then started to fall, even for a second, and then they transported again, that momentum from falling for even a second would be maintained. So

This is possible.  It also does not matter.  All Radiants can take a fall of 5 meters without any trouble.

36 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So if they fall for another second elsewhere, that is the velocity increasing. Do this enough times, and the transporter has the velocity of someone falling for an extended period of time. The transporter then transports back to the ground, and all that velocity catches up, and they touch the ground with that force and go splat.

Shallan managed to fall for several seconds without any trouble.  There is also speculation that you may actually be able to do Cent's velocity trick with Transportation(Theylen field several soldiers go flying away from Jasnah).  Even if not Radiants are quite good at blunt force trauma damage and they could also just touch the ground ever now and again doing an up down transportation pattern to avoid this.  It sounds quite easy actually.  Also splat for a Radiant means nothing.

36 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

David tested the plane issue while hunting the terrorist. He can leave a plane in flight, and return to it, regardless the sudden changes in relative speed, and location. 

Why does this matter at all?  According to speed bubble rules a transporter can do the same.

36 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Why am I concerned? Is because via the reference I gave in mistborn, it does matter in Sanderson's Cosemere. it may not matter in the Jumper world's abilities, but it is reasonable to believe it would in Sanderson's with time bubbles as reference. 

Jumper is some of the most grounded sci fi in existence.   Jumping itself makes complete sense actually.

36 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

That's my point. They do not have planes or cars yet, so what is judged relative is the planet, which is why if the transporter did you transportation into the air trick, they would go splat. 

What it is with you and SPLAT?  IT MEANS NOTHING.

Takes deep breath.

OK lets go over this.  Explain the splat phenomena that worries you in detail.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

Assuming that the cost of using transportation on yourself is less then a jug that means that you can during a highstorm transport yourself for free along with as much remaining in the jug that you have.

A windrunner maintains contact with the highstorm through the entire flight, what is transported does not, otherwise you are just hopping along in space with the highstorm, defeating the purpose of long range teleportation. So if I use a highstorm to teleport myself, there is still a limit on how much stormlight I can hold, thereby how far I can teleport, and I cannot draw more midway, because I will not longer be in contact with the storm. Does that help?

1 minute ago, Karger said:

I know but it is not really relevant.  We were not arguing over weather or not Elscalling is instantaneous we were trying to figure out why it is imprecise.  I put forward a potential solution.

Um, then we got confused, because the impression you gave me initially was you were arguing that elsecalling is not instantaneous transportation between two locations. That you stated you had to go from the physical, to the cognitive, and then travel yee old way to the new location, and then transfer back to the physical. I am saying you can go instantly from one location to another location. You then said because of how broken that is, it should not work. I think responded with what I believe are the limitations balancing it and preventing it from being broken. Not sure where the whole argument on imprecision is. Jasnah states that in the book. Brandon states that in WoB. Why is that portion debated?

1 minute ago, Karger said:

Only if you know exactly where and when they are going to show up.  Jasnah oriented herself almost instantaneously.

She does not. I quoted the scene. Nothing is instant to me. Hoid had time to see the glow, see the glow resolve into a person, her lean over, groan, and then she notices him. 

1 minute ago, Karger said:

Screemers can't hurt you.  It takes time for people who can to find you.  During that time you can open the oathgate.

Screamers go directly to the location. Fused followed right after. It happened multiple times in the book. Again you are assuming the willshaper would be able to transport directly next to the oathgate. I assume it would be in the general area, and would still need to get there normally. 

1 minute ago, Karger said:

A visual he could actually see from where he was.  One of the first things he tries in the first books is to go to a place via color photo.  It does not work.  He later makes a video library to record useful places to jog his memory latter.

that does not change he teleports from a flying plane, to the ground, and then after a few minutes, back onto the plane, which should be impossible. The moment he teleported to the ground, he should still me moving the same 2 to 3 hundred miles per hour he was while on the plane. What happens if you stand on a bus going 60 miles per hour, and then the bus hits the brakes? You go flying, because you are still going 60 miles per hour relative to the bus. So if things worked as they should, then when David teleported from the plane to the ground, he should have turned into a blood stain skidmark. Even if that didn't do it, then after teleporting off the plane, if he used the photo to teleport back onto the plane, then he should end up in midair, where the plane was prior to his teleport, not where it is now because it moved. 

1 minute ago, Karger said:

This is possible.  It also does not matter.  All Radiants can take a fall of 5 meters without any trouble.

And I am saying because the momentum builds based on how long you fall, and how many times you teleport (again play Portals sometime), it won't be just 5 meters. It will be significant damage, and damage stormlight is wasted on healing. 

1 minute ago, Karger said:

Shallan managed to fall for several seconds without any trouble.  There is also speculation that you may actually be able to do Cent's velocity trick with Transportation(Theylen field several soldiers go flying away from Jasnah).  Even if not Radiants are quite good at blunt force trauma damage and they could also just touch the ground ever now and again doing an up down transportation pattern to avoid this.  It sounds quite easy actually.  Also splat for a Radiant means nothing.

People theorize that Jasnah did a "force push" to send that person flying when Adolin shows up. WoB has Brandon hedge, but potentially disagree. Regarding the "disease" soulcasting, people theorize that it was transferring the momentum. But we:

 

1. do not know if that is what happened

2. if that is a function of transportation specifically

3. will that work with actual teleportation as well

 

The scenario you illustrated is not nothing. If a radiant is teleporting all over the battle field in midair, every second fighting is momentum built for when the radiant finally returns to the earth, or runs out of stormlight. The damage from such a fall has to be healed, which takes stormlight. The greater the momentum, the greater the damage, the more stormlight is going to have to do to recover from splat

1 minute ago, Karger said:

Why does this matter at all?  According to speed bubble rules a transporter can do the same.

I did my best to explain as to why, I guess at this point if you do not see the problem, then repeating it will accomplish nothing. 

1 minute ago, Karger said:

Jumper is some of the most grounded sci fi in existence.   Jumping itself makes complete sense actually.

it is grounded as the main character comments on how it breaks physics. He literally explains as he does it how it should work, versus how it actually works. Then he shows tricks and ways to take advantage of how it works counter to how it should. 

1 minute ago, Karger said:

What it is with you and SPLAT?  IT MEANS NOTHING. 

It is a fun word that I think illustrates my point. 

At this point though I am not sure what continuing this would accomplish. 

[Karger]

Just now, Pathfinder said:

A windrunner maintains contact with the highstorm through the entire flight, what is transported does not, otherwise you are just hopping along in space with the highstorm, defeating the purpose of long range teleportation. So if I use a highstorm to teleport myself, there is still a limit on how much stormlight I can hold, thereby how far I can teleport, and I cannot draw more midway, because I will not longer be in contact with the storm. Does that help?

Not really.  You could just get some gemstones and take more with you.  Stormlight as a limiting factor is not really workable.  Also I assume you have a destination in mind.  Why not just go there?  You are teleporting.  I suggested some kind of logarithmic increase in Stormlight requirements for distance already.  However distance is not the only problem.  Even a half mile limit would be ridiculous in combat or espionage. 

5 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Um, then we got confused, because the impression you gave me initially was you were arguing that elsecalling is not instantaneous transportation between two locations.

How?  That argument is rather silly considering that we have WoBs indicating that Oathgates go at near Light speed or faster.

6 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

You then said because of how broken that is, it should not work. I think responded with what I believe are the limitations balancing it and preventing it from being broken. Not sure where the whole argument on imprecision is. Jasnah states that in the book. Brandon states that in WoB. Why is that portion debated?

I meant instantaneous direct travel between two points exactly A to B is broken.  Elsecalling is imperfect due to (I theorized) a lack of coordination between the two planes(they are not one to one).

9 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

She does not. I quoted the scene. Nothing is instant to me. Hoid had time to see the glow, see the glow resolve into a person, her lean over, groan, and then she notices him. 

46 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

. It faded immediately - really, it was just an afterimage, as if something glowing had spun in the circle very quickly.....

Hoid was clearly out of her field of vision.  If she was in combat mode she would have been infused and had her blade out immediately and checked her surroundings.

11 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Screamers go directly to the location. Fused followed right after. It happened multiple times in the book. Again you are assuming the willshaper would be able to transport directly next to the oathgate. I assume it would be in the general area, and would still need to get there normally. 

How inaccurate could this person be?  The plagues are big enough for an army to drill on.  Stormlgiht allow extremely fast movement.  The Fused are flying in from outside.  You should have time to get there easily.

13 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

And I am saying because the momentum builds based on how long you fall, and how many times you teleport (again play Portals sometime), it won't be just 5 meters. It will be significant damage, and damage stormlight is wasted on healing. 

Once you hit the ground you start over.  Why on earth would you stay in the air to build up velocity?

14 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The scenario you illustrated is not nothing. If a radiant is teleporting all over the battle field in midair, every second fighting is momentum built for when the radiant finally returns to the earth, or runs out of stormlight. The damage from such a fall has to be healed, which takes stormlight. The greater the momentum, the greater the damage, the more stormlight is going to have to do to recover from splat

That was not what I was suggesting.  The Radiant moves around the battlefield by teleporting about 10 feat up.  They take the fall down as time to orient and then strike once or as they are falling.  In extremely unlucky cases you might have to try again 3 or four times but second ideal Kaladin managed easily to fall that kind of distance with limited stormlgiht so I don't see how SPLAT as you call it enters into anything.

Meanwhile such an opponent is basically unstoppable as you can't pin them down, trap them or flank them.

18 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

it is grounded as the main character comments on how it breaks physics. He literally explains as he does it how it should work, versus how it actually works. Then he shows tricks and ways to take advantage of how it works counter to how it should. 

Assuming that a person could open a door in space time to wherever they want then everything in the book makes sense.

18 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

It is a fun word that I think illustrates my point. 

Sorry. I got a bit of a tick eventually.

[Pathfinder]

15 minutes ago, Karger said:

Not really.  You could just get some gemstones and take more with you.  Stormlight as a limiting factor is not really workable.  Also I assume you have a destination in mind.  Why not just go there?  You are teleporting.  I suggested some kind of logarithmic increase in Stormlight requirements for distance already.  However distance is not the only problem.  Even a half mile limit would be ridiculous in combat or espionage. 

The impression I got from your initial post regarding the highstorm was by channeling stormlight from the highstorm, the transporter could transport an obscene number. I was explaining why I do not think that is the case. 

I have already stated why I do not think transportation as in Sanderson's books would have the effect you posit. 

15 minutes ago, Karger said:

How?  That argument is rather silly considering that we have WoBs indicating that Oathgates go at near Light speed or faster.

Ok, at this point I am lost. I will have to go back and copy your own posts, but I could have sworn you were arguing that radiant transportation can only move someone from the physical to the cognitive, and back again. That oathgates were different and allowed for instantaneous transfer from locations. And that the reason you thought radiants cannot do that, is because if they could, it would be overpowered, and that led us to discuss back and forth the limitations. If you are saying you agree that a radiant can do instantaneous transportation between two locations, then I am at an utter loss as to what we are talking about. 

15 minutes ago, Karger said:

I meant instantaneous direct travel between two points exactly A to B is broken.  Elsecalling is imperfect due to (I theorized) a lack of coordination between the two planes(they are not one to one).

Then that comes completely out of left field no where mentioned in this thread that I am not at this point even going to attempt to discuss. Good luck with your theory, to each their own. 

15 minutes ago, Karger said:

Hoid was clearly out of her field of vision.  If she was in combat mode she would have been infused and had her blade out immediately and checked her surroundings.

But in the prior post......you said she arrived ready for combat...... Now you are saying she wasn't? And that if she was she would have reacted immediately?

15 minutes ago, Karger said:

How inaccurate could this person be?  The plagues are big enough for an army to drill on.  Stormlgiht allow extremely fast movement.  The Fused are flying in from outside.  You should have time to get there easily.

You have to go through the palace to reach the oathgate in kholinar. It is the whole reason why Kaladin and co had to storm the palace, and that was with a whole group to fight with them. You are saying one person can transport into the area, and then assault the palace on their own. Personally I disagree. 

15 minutes ago, Karger said:

Once you hit the ground you start over.  Why on earth would you stay in the air to build up velocity?

Because in your initial post that's what you said. That the transporter would transport into the air, and then continue to erratically transport around in the air to fight the flying fused. The longer in the air that transporter is, the greater the momentum, the greater the harm when they finally touch the ground. Otherwise the scenario should be the transporter transports into the air, hits an enemy (assume they can pinpoint the transport to the target), and then transport back to the ground, to then try again. Either way that's a lot of stormlight use, that a jumper didn't worry about. 

15 minutes ago, Karger said:

That was not what I was suggesting.  The Radiant moves around the battlefield by teleporting about 10 feat up.  They take the fall down as time to orient and then strike once or as they are falling.  In extremely unlucky cases you might have to try again 3 or four times but second ideal Kaladin managed easily to fall that kind of distance with limited stormlgiht so I don't see how SPLAT as you call it enters into anything.

His legs snapped while healing, and it still used up some of the stormlight. Again that is not what I read you initially presenting. What I read you present is you have fliers high in the air. The willshaper is transporting high in the air among them, hitting them from every angle, and then poofing away, to re-appear behind someone else. That to me would cause problems. 

15 minutes ago, Karger said:

Meanwhile such an opponent is basically unstoppable as you can't pin them down, trap them or flank them.

And again I disagree. The stormlight usage, reorientation, accuracy and where you target would limit that kind of usage. 

15 minutes ago, Karger said:

Assuming that a person could open a door in space time to wherever they want then everything in the book makes sense.

The door passes over him in a split second where ever he is, at any orientation. It is only through teleporting back and forth continually rapidly is he able to open a sustained gate, and where ever the gate is open on the other end remains suspended in air. That is how he is able to flood the room. He teleports back and forth between the lab and the beach creating an opening slightly submerged in the ocean for the water to continually flow through. Otherwise the "Gate" is exactly his own dimensions, flowing across him and whatever he is holding. So to me, no, the way his teleporting functions should not kill momentum, and it certainly shouldn't be predicated on whether the user decides momentum is a thing or not. Cosmerically sure, but again the time bubbles is why I think someone transporting in relation to the planet into mid air, and then falling a bit, to transport again, fall a bit, transport again, fall a bit, and so on, once they return to standing on the planet, will feel all that momentum. 

15 minutes ago, Karger said:

Sorry. I got a bit of a tick eventually.

Then pick another word and I will use that instead, the point is damage is resultant. In many cases, horrific damage. 

[Aon Tia]

7 hours ago, Karger said:

Assuming that the cost of using transportation on yourself is less then a jug that means that you can during a highstorm transport yourself for free along with as much remaining in the jug that you have

We have no idea how much is going to be left.. it may be very minuscule to be of much use for the teleporter to use on the other side. The longer distance travelled the more will be used. And the only reason you will do it in highstorms is to go to long distances. Also you have to wait usually for spheres to recharge which happens when the storm has almost passed you. Unlike wind runners and Skybreakers, a teleporter can not keep recharging his sphere. He can not fly and he can not be on the ground outside during storm. And I do not think appearing 100 feet above in the air is going to work either because they are going to fall and really hurt themselves. 
 

It is not Going to be as easy as you are suggesting. 

[Karger]

On 11/1/2019 at 4:29 PM, Pathfinder said:

Ok, at this point I am lost. I will have to go back and copy your own posts, but I could have sworn you were arguing that radiant transportation can only move someone from the physical to the cognitive, and back again. That oathgates were different and allowed for instantaneous transfer from locations. And that the reason you thought radiants cannot do that, is because if they could, it would be overpowered, and that led us to discuss back and forth the limitations. If you are saying you agree that a radiant can do instantaneous transportation between two locations, then I am at an utter loss as to what we are talking about. 

 

On 11/1/2019 at 4:29 PM, Pathfinder said:

Then that comes completely out of left field no where mentioned in this thread that I am not at this point even going to attempt to discuss. Good luck with your theory, to each their own. 

You interjected in my response to Cal.  I have been trying to figure out what you meant ever since.  It was a bit out of left field.

On 11/1/2019 at 4:29 PM, Pathfinder said:

But in the prior post......you said she arrived ready for combat...... Now you are saying she wasn't? And that if she was she would have reacted immediately?

In my prior post I was remembering the scene incorrectly.  You helpfully posted it.  That lead me to change my positions. 

 

On 11/1/2019 at 4:29 PM, Pathfinder said:

You have to go through the palace to reach the oathgate in kholinar. It is the whole reason why Kaladin and co had to storm the palace, and that was with a whole group to fight with them. You are saying one person can transport into the area, and then assault the palace on their own. Personally I disagree. 

You don't need to go from the palace.  Instead you could use teleportation to bypass it and all fortifications.  This is a large reason why I dislike the ability so much when it does not have enough flaws.

On 11/1/2019 at 4:29 PM, Pathfinder said:

Because in your initial post that's what you said. That the transporter would transport into the air, and then continue to erratically transport around in the air to fight the flying fused. The longer in the air that transporter is, the greater the momentum, the greater the harm when they finally touch the ground. Otherwise the scenario should be the transporter transports into the air, hits an enemy (assume they can pinpoint the transport to the target), and then transport back to the ground, to then try again. Either way that's a lot of stormlight use, that a jumper didn't worry about. 

Um I don't recall ever saying that in connection with the OP willshaper attack strategy I am proposing,  They are only doing one transport a fall of a few feet and then a repeat.  This makes them impossible to surround or pin down.  As to stormlight costs those are clearly not the primary limit on this magic system.  Like none atium powered alomancy the metal is not the limiting factor since there is no material limit on how much you can have at any given time.

On 11/1/2019 at 4:29 PM, Pathfinder said:

His legs snapped while healing, and it still used up some of the stormlight. Again that is not what I read you initially presenting. What I read you present is you have fliers high in the air. The willshaper is transporting high in the air among them, hitting them from every angle, and then poofing away, to re-appear behind someone else. That to me would cause problems. 

Maybe.  It depends on how velocity transfer works.  However even then you have quite a few options to take out large numbers of flyers with limited problems.  One of the Windrunners in the gem arcive talked about falling a good mile from the top of the tower and they obviously survived.

On 11/1/2019 at 4:29 PM, Pathfinder said:

And again I disagree. The stormlight usage, reorientation, accuracy and where you target would limit that kind of usage. 

I obviously can't do anything but say that(I think) your wrong.  Think about how much of combat is about teamwork, coordination, and orientation. 

On 11/1/2019 at 4:29 PM, Pathfinder said:

Then pick another word and I will use that instead, the point is damage is resultant. In many cases, horrific damage. 

That one is on me.  It has largely worn off.

On 11/1/2019 at 11:09 PM, The traveller said:

We have no idea how much is going to be left.. it may be very minuscule to be of much use for the teleporter to use on the other side. The longer distance travelled the more will be used. And the only reason you will do it in highstorms is to go to long distances. Also you have to wait usually for spheres to recharge which happens when the storm has almost passed you. Unlike wind runners and Skybreakers, a teleporter can not keep recharging his sphere. He can not fly and he can not be on the ground outside during storm. And I do not think appearing 100 feet above in the air is going to work either because they are going to fall and really hurt themselves. 

Radiant healing and bondsmith overcharging.