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Lost Autonomy, please help


Honorless

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Then include your reasoning with your statement

Or in this case, make that statement in the first place

May I point out that you wrote one word then quoted a response by someone else on the same thread

I trust you've seen my response to the text you chose to quote and I wouldn't have to re-quote it

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The source of Sand Mastery's Investiture is the Dayside blue giant, so I think Bavadin or at least the most significant portion of Autonomy is on that sun.

As the Sand Lord, he is said to allow "Coexistant Contradiction, both light and dark", so the theory of the moon reflecting Autonomy's Investiture to Darkside,  though most likely correct, isn't necessary as it still allows for Autonomy to inhabit the white dwarf.

Given the faces (plural, different looking) on the clouds in the GN and Sand Mastery's relationship as water forming a temporary bond, I think those too are Avatars of Autonomy.

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53 minutes ago, Honorless said:

The source of Sand Mastery's Investiture is the Dayside blue giant, so I think Bavadin or at least the most significant portion of Autonomy is on that sun.

And I still think we have conflicting WoBs on this, and that it's not that clear cut. 

Quote

Jasonioan

What is the Shard on White Sand? Because we've both read White Sand.

Brandon Sanderson

The Shard-- So what the Shard is doing is, the Shard is the Sand God. But I didn't bring it out much, there's only one Shard on the planet. And the Shard actually kind of resides in the atmosphere and stuff like that but we decided to bring the Shard out a little bit more in the comic book so when you read that you'll be able to find a little more.

Jasonioan

Does it take effect in the Darkside?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it does.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

 

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"The Sun was the Sand Lord's eye", plus Sand Mastery works anywhere where the star's light can reach the sand.

Bavadin is known to use Avatars. It is a theory, one which is plausible, considering the information available, till a better one can be made.

Edit: This theory by @Gilphon for how Autonomy creates her Avatars is quite good!

Quote

So... theory. Bavadin is inhabiting Taldain's sun, right? And spreading her investiture through the sunlight? 

This implies that her Investiture is radiating throughout the Cosmere; landing everywhere that Star is visible. Not enough to be particularly noticeable, and not enough to do much of anything, but it's still gonna land everywhere. Nobody's gonna be using that Investiture, so over the course of thousands of years, it would just gradually build up more and more. 

And when you leave that kind of power alone, with nobody holding or using it for that long, it tends to gain its own kind of sentience, as we've seen elsewhere and has been referred to in a few WoBs. So eventually you'd get a sentient and powerful piece of Autonomous Investiture pretty much everywhere. 

So on Taldain, where Bavadin's Investiture is obviously a lot more plentiful, this process happens a lot faster, and the Sand Lord manifests pretty quickly. But Trell and Patji and whatever avatar is forming on Obradai take much longer to reach significant amounts of power, so nobody realizes what's going on until they're pretty well established.

 

Edited by Honorless
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  • 2 months later...
On 11/12/2019 at 10:51 AM, Honorless said:

"The Sun was the Sand Lord's eye", plus Sand Mastery works anywhere where the star's light can reach the sand.

Bavadin is known to use Avatars. It is a theory, one which is plausible, considering the information available, till a better one can be made.

Edit: This theory by @Gilphon for how Autonomy creates her Avatars is quite good!

 

Brandon has said that everything happening on FoTS could happen with or without a shard present.

And that the Investiture there was already there before the shattering

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On 1/21/2020 at 5:20 AM, Eternal Khol said:

Brandon has said that everything happening on FoTS could happen with or without a shard present.

And that the Investiture there was already there before the shattering

Yeah, I know. It's an old post, and I've changed my mind regarding what Avatars might be

Basically, I think that Splinters are formed directly by a Shard whereas an Avatar is formed from the Investiture from Adonalsium that got assigned to a Shard post-Shattering

Edited by Honorless
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11 hours ago, Honorless said:

Basically, I think that Splinters are formed directly by a Shard whereas an Avatar is formed from the Investiture from Adonalsium that got assigned to a Shard post-Shattering

Then how do new avatars show up?

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2 hours ago, Karger said:

Then how do new avatars show up?

Investiture naturally tends to gain sentience

https://wob.coppermind.net/adv_search/?query=Investiture%2Bsentience

plus one can become a Vessel for them

Quote

Pod

The combination of a Shard and its Vessel leads to sapient mind with access to a virtually infinite pool of Investiture. Are avatars the product of a similar combination of a mind and a pool of Investiture, only on a smaller scale, with less power?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say that is an accurate representation of what an avatar is. It’s not the only way, but it is an accurate... some avatars are that. I would say that’s the standard.

 

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4 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Investiture naturally tends to gain sentience

Sure but by your theory Adonalsium would have to have already assigned that investiture yet we have evidence that new types of avatars show up regularly in the years since his death. 

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17 minutes ago, Karger said:

Sure but by your theory Adonalsium would have to have already assigned that investiture yet we have evidence that new types of avatars show up regularly in the years since his death. 

Regularly? We don't know enough about Avatars yet to make statements like that

Also, I didn't say Adonalsium assigned the Investiture's Intent, I said post-Shattering. As we understand so far, it seems Shardic Intent only came about after Adonalsium's death

Edited by Honorless
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1 minute ago, Honorless said:

Also, I didn't say Adonalsium assigned the Investiture's Intent, I said post-Shattering. As we understand so far, it seems Shardic Intent only came about after Adonalsium's death

So by my current understanding of your theory there is only the potential for a limited number of avatars.  Is this correct?

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Just now, Karger said:

So by my current understanding of your theory there is only the potential for a limited number of avatars.  Is this correct?

Limited? Well, only in the sense that the amount of Investiture in the Cosmere itself is limited. And the amount that isn't directly being held by Shards is probably a significant percentage of that. Not that we have any measurements or even estimates at this point.

I'm not sure I want the Cosmere to veer into number-crunching LitRPG style. Actually, now that I think about it, I'm absolutely sure that I most definitely don't want that to happen. I am still interested in having a basic unit of Investiture though, which we will get eventually, according to Brandon

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8 hours ago, Honorless said:

Limited? Well, only in the sense that the amount of Investiture in the Cosmere itself is limited. And the amount that isn't directly being held by Shards is probably a significant percentage of that. Not that we have any measurements or even estimates at this point.

I thought your theory indicated that only investiture that had been assigned to do something else by adonalsium could be used.  Since there are a limited number of entities that fit that description a limited number of avatars could be made from them since no new ones are going to show up(the big a being dead).

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8 hours ago, Honorless said:

Regularly? We don't know enough about Avatars yet to make statements like that

Also, I didn't say Adonalsium assigned the Investiture's Intent, I said post-Shattering. As we understand so far, it seems Shardic Intent only came about after Adonalsium's death

Intent was there before the shattering. But I don't know if it was called intent back then?

Part of WoB:

"I always imagine Investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a Shard--because it's always been associated with that Shard. To Investiture, Adonalsium's Shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time."

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40 minutes ago, Karger said:

I thought your theory indicated that only investiture that had been assigned to do something else by adonalsium could be used.  Since there are a limited number of entities that fit that description a limited number of avatars could be made from them since no new ones are going to show up(the big a being dead).

Oh, okay, yes

25 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

Intent was there before the shattering. But I don't know if it was called intent back then?

Part of WoB:

"I always imagine Investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a Shard--because it's always been associated with that Shard. To Investiture, Adonalsium's Shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time."

The Investiture would have always been keyed towards a certain flavour, which would indicate which Shard it would get assigned to post-Shattering. Before that, it would all belong to Adonalsium, Intents being aspects of his personality. The WoB you posted isn't contrary to what I said at all.

Quote

Paladin Brewer

Was it necessary that Adonalsium split into sixteen Shards, or was it happenstance?

Brandon Sanderson

I will RAFO that one.

Paladin Brewer

Would the number or intents have been different, if there were more or less people?

Brandon Sanderson

That's all wrapped up in that RAFO. Let's say it's conceivable that the split could have happened in different ways.

Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017)
Quote

Eric

If Adonalsium Shattered with intent, would he always Shatter with the same Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

It is plausible that it could've gone a different way.

Eric

So it could've been different Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that's plausible.

Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014)
Quote

askthepaperclip (paraphrased)

If Adonalsium were to shatter in a parallel universe, would it divide into the same 16 intents?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Um...it...Adonalsium could have been shattered in other ways.

askthepaperclip (paraphrased)

Was there a force determining which way it shattered?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes!

New York Signing (Nov. 16, 2013)

 

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1 hour ago, Karger said:

I thought your theory indicated that only investiture that had been assigned to do something else by adonalsium could be used.  Since there are a limited number of entities that fit that description a limited number of avatars could be made from them since no new ones are going to show up(the big a being dead).

I think what @Honorless says about how avatars are made by autonomy using residual investiture that got assigned to him post-shattering, makes total sense. And I also agree that that should mean that the no. Of avatars that autonomy can make should be limited in number as in not infinite. But although that number could still be quite big to matter. 

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  • 6 months later...

Okay, so, the largest chunk of Autonomy's power is probably in the sun, as Brandon's said that her Investiture can be used anywhere that reaches her starlight (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/121/#e4770) and Khriss said that Autonomy's Investiture coming from the sun is the most simplified version of what's going on.

Autonomy probably is also Invested in the atmosphere: there's all those faces in the sky in the graphic novels. Also Taldain is tidally locked, one side permanently heated by the sun & one in the (relative) dark: it should either have been facing massive hurricanes (hot air expanding from Dayside while cold air compresses on Darkside) or have all its atmosphere stripped from its surface, or the first situation slowly leading to the latter. Also Brandon has confirmed before that Autonomy is in the atmosphere of Taldain.

I think those two WoBs don't contradict one another at all. Looking back at the Patji being a Shard of Adonalsium WoB, Brandon has tried to keep his cards close to his chest like this before, and it also provides an answer to what Autonomy might be doing. While a weather phenomenon could be managed by a Shard (like the Mists on Scadrial), something like this might need and/or create a sentient being (like the Highstorm on Roshar), but rather than Splinters, Autonomy might be using Avatars.

It's possible that Taldain, like First of the Sun already had some of Autonomy's Investiture and that's why Bavadin settled there.

 

I wonder if Autonomy has also Invested the smaller blue supergiant (I'm assuming that's what it is, rather than a white dwarf or a neutron star, seriously that would be too much).

Edit: it was a white dwarf, I was wondering where I was remembering that from but it was mentioned in the AU

 

I'm also liking the idea of the moon, Nizh Da, reflecting Investiture along with light.

Also, can Autonomy increase the lifespan of her what looks like a blue supergiant which have a much lower lifespan than a yellow dwarf star like our sun (though it's a giant among yellow dwarf stars) or a red dwarf star.

Edited by Honorless
white dwarf > smaller blue supergiant > back to white dwarf
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