autonomy Lost Autonomy, please help

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

The power of the Shard is. The mind clearly isn't. 

Well the mind definitionally exists in the CR...

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Yes. And that "nexus," the actual mind of the Vessel of the Shard could only be in one place at once, and that is what is bound to a world. 

But in secret history Preservation was at every dead person on Scadrial at the same time.

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Looking into the Spiritual is easier for a shard than a mortal, but it's not even easy for them. If it were, Odium would never have need to "search" for Ambition. They'd both have been in the same place in the Spiritual t no matter what. 

I do not want to have to talk or even think about the idea of positioning in the SR.

[Calderis]

Just now, Karger said:

But in secret history Preservation was at every dead person on Scadrial at the same time.

That's another subject entirely... But I don't think that that's any more complicated for the "mind" of the Shard than most background processes. 

For example... Warbreaker spoilers. 

Spoiler

Endowment chooses the returned directly, and the shard doesn't even a Vessel for that to continue on autopilot. 

Quote

Leinton (paraphrased)

If Endowment were killed, would the Returned still come?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Somebody needs to hold the magic. If no one holds the magic, the magic will start to gain sentience. Interesting and bizarre things happen then, so I would say yes, but with the caveat that with whoever picks up the power or what happens with the power could end up changing that.

Words of Radiance San Diego signing (March 4, 2014)

 

 

[Honorless]

1 hour ago, Debarra said:

Is it possible Autonomy has two magic systems on Taldain? One being the sun giving out the investure and the other that of whatever is at the Darkside?

 Due to her use if Avatars it seems possible that she would of ended up investing the planet twice in a sense.

That looks to be the case right now.

Also, it has been stated that her magic on Taldain is more a part of the ecology like in a minor Shardworld Invested by Adonalsium, like Ashyn or FotS or Roshar. The latter is no longer a minor Shardworld and Honor and Cultivation's presence there has caused some changes.

Sounds like Skathan found the equivalent of Surgebinding on Taldain to me. Not as in, he found a way to bind a spren equivalent but that he found a way to directly use Taldain's Darkside equivalent of the Surges. 

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

FotS

Where?

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

Sounds like Skathan found the equivalent of Surgebinding on Taldain to me. Not as in, he found a way to bind a spren equivalent but that he found a way to directly use Taldain's Darkside equivalent of the Surges. 

I don't really think we have enough information to know anything about his powers other then that they seem to prolong life.  My pet theory is that Skathan himself is actually an avatar.

[Honorless]

5 hours ago, Karger said:

Quote

FotS

Where?

 

I don't really think we have enough information to know anything about his powers other then that they seem to prolong life.  My pet theory is that Skathan himself is actually an avatar.

FotS is First of the Sun where the ecology itself utilizes Investiture.

That is my counter-theory to Skathan being an Avatar of Autonomy.

Why do you support the theory of Skathan being an Avatar if all you believe we have confirmation of, in regards to his power, is his longevity?

Edited November 4, 2019 by Honorless

[Calderis]

An Avatar investing shouldn't create a separate magic system. 

A magic system develops on a world when the Investiture of a Shard interacts with that world. 

An Avatar of Autonomy, despite being a separate mind, is the same Investiture. 

[Honorless]

On 11/4/2019 at 3:07 PM, Calderis said:

An Avatar investing shouldn't create a separate magic system. 

A magic system develops on a world when the Investiture of a Shard interacts with that world. 

An Avatar of Autonomy, despite being a separate mind, is the same Investiture. 

I fail to see how this relates to anything me or @Karger said.

 

For clarification's sake: both Roshar and Taldain's Investiture is tied into their respective ecosystems. Surges can be manipulated by Surgebinders via bonding spren. White Sand can be manipulated by Sand Masters by using their body's water. I theorized that Skathan may have found something similar on Darkside with the Shifting Colors.

Edit: Ah, pardon! I didn't see that was in response to @Debarra's comment!

 

The Presence of a Shard isn't necessary to fuel a magic system. Though these magics would be more tied to the Shardworld's ecosystem 

Spoiler

like Ashyn's disease-based magic system

Though that might depend on what you view as a magic system.

 

Although FotS probably was designed by Adonalsium himself, Patji does seem to have something to do with the Aviar.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Honorless

[Karger]

10 hours ago, Honorless said:

FotS is First of the Sun where the ecology itself utilizes Investiture.

I know where it is but I was confused by the acronym.  Thanks.

10 hours ago, Honorless said:

That is my counter-theory to Skathan being an Avatar of Autonomy.

Why do you support the theory of Skathan being an Avatar if all you believe we have confirmation of, in regards to his power, is his longevity?

I do in fact believe that all we have confirmation of is his longevity because it is true.  Baon claims that he does things that no one else can but we have no idea what those are, what Baon means by that or that Baon is not being fooled somehow(not much of a possibility but still).  This does not keep me from making theories.  Also Autonomy if she wanted to could in fact probably make an avatar that was just long lived.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Karger

[Honorless]

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

I know where it is but I was confused by the acronym.  Thanks.

I do in fact believe that all we have confirmation of is his longevity because it is true.  Baon claims that he does things that no one else can but we have no idea what those are, what Baon means by that or that Baon is not being fooled somehow(not much of a possibility but still).  This does not keep me from making theories.  Also Autonomy if she wanted to could in fact probably make an avatar that was just long lived.

Hmmmmm... he did mention that Skathan survived attacks on himself. So you can add healing to the list

[Karger]

10 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Hmmmmm... he did mention that Skathan survived attacks on himself. So you can add healing to the list

Or just good reflexes and a well trained security force with a flare for the dramatic for propaganda purposes.

[Honorless]

15 minutes ago, Karger said:

Or just good reflexes and a well trained security force with a flare for the dramatic for propaganda purposes.

He talked about it to Khriss the same way the Lord Ruler's assassination attempts were mentioned.

Also healing and long life do sound like they would go together

Edited November 4, 2019 by Honorless

[Karger]

5 hours ago, Honorless said:

He talked about it to Khriss the same way the Lord Ruler's assassination attempts were mentioned.

Which we know to have been exaggerated.  I am not saying that I don't believe I am just separating fact from theory.

 

[Honorless]

11 minutes ago, Karger said:

Which we know to have been exaggerated.  I am not saying that I don't believe I am just separating fact from theory.

 

We know it to be exaggerated? Give me an extract or WoB

[Karger]

5 minutes ago, Honorless said:

We know it to be exaggerated? Give me an extract or WoB

TLRs assassination survival stories.

[Honorless]

21 minutes ago, Karger said:

TLRs assassination survival stories.

We don't have any reason to assume they were exaggerations.

In fact we learn that he can survive being decapitated or blown up/set on fire from those, later confirmed by WoBs as the result of his Compounding

[Karger]

14 minutes ago, Honorless said:

We don't have any reason to assume they were exaggerations.

In fact we learn that he can survive being decapitated or blown up/set on fire from those, later confirmed by WoBs as the result of his Compounding

Quote

TWG Posts (April 9, 2008)
#1 April 9, 2008 Share Copy

 

 

Arabas

The question is about the Lord Ruler's death.  He is basically killed because Vin was able to remove his Feruchemy storage bracelets thus depriving him of his stored youth and strength correct?  Once he didn't have access to these she could simply kill him like a normal man.Now on page 627 about the 3rd paragraph down the Lord Ruler states " I've survived burning and beheadings.  I've been stabbed and sliced, crushed and dismembered." (I also think this is also reference somewhere else in the book that I could not locate)If all it took to drain the Lord Ruler of his power was to remove access to his Feruchemy items wouldn't he have died if he was dismembered?  Remove the storage devices from the trunk of the body and he would die?

Peter Ahlstrom

I asked Brandon about this once, and I'm pretty sure he said the beheading survival part was a lie/exaggeration. I'd have to go back and check my notes.

The Lord Ruler would have reason to want people to believe he had survived beheadings and being burned to ash.

I feel like Cal!

[Honorless]

 

Quote

Logic_Nuke

Could decapitation kill a Gold Compounder? With a guillotine, for example?

Brandon Sanderson

Most forms of extreme cosmere healing don't care much what is done to the physical body, as the person's spiritual template is in power at the time.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 6, 2015)

That one might be out-of-date, Karger

There were newer WoBs by Brandon on surviving decapitation usually by picking TLR as example, like the one above, either Brandon changed his mind or Peter was misremembering. Ugh, I'm not hunting all of them down.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Honorless

[Calderis]

@Debarra Spoilered for length and general Cosmere

Spoiler

Quote

Agate

I can guess two possible options for the kandra.

1. God Sazed endowed the gift of presence on the now mistwraiths.

2. Some of the kandra survived in the cave with the Terrisman and people of the city, along with the small mistwraiths, these are re-born with the spikes they pulled out during the resolution.

I can imagine too that some kandra on assignment may have hidden in the shelters with the rest of humanity.

Brandon Sanderson

The kandra.

Yes, they live. The people were smart enough, eventually, to replace their spikes. (And there were a couple who were on assignment who made it to storage caches.)

However, there will likely never be any more of them, since Hemalurgy is required to make them. They are now some of the few people who can communicate directly with Sazed, who—like Ruin—can whisper to people most easily when they are connected to him via spikes. With some speculation, you can probably guess what kind of roles the kandra will end up playing in future books.

Kaimipono

On a broader level, is Hemalurgy officially dead, then? Or is it still extant in some Ruin-free (but still messy) form? (If it's gone, is there any imbalance since Preservation's magic power is kept and Ruin's isn't?)

Brandon Sanderson

Is Hemalurgy dead? No, not at all. It, like the other two powers, was not created by Ruin or Preservation, but by the natural state of the world and its interaction with the gods who created it. It still requires the same method of creation, but very few people are aware of how it works.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

Quote

JoyBlu

In order to have a Breath, do you have to be native to Nalthis?

Brandon Sanderson

Not to be given Breaths, but people who are not native to Nalthis are not born with that Investiture.

JoyBlu

So, you have to be born on that planet?

Brandon Sanderson

There are exceptions. Most of the time.

JoyBlu

If both your parents were Nalthians, and they moved off planet, and they had a child that was born on a different planet—

Brandon Sanderson

It is possible for that child to have a Breath, but it would not continue too long. But yes, that child would probably have a Breath, depending...

Joyblu

If both of his parents had Breaths.

Brandon Sanderson

Mmmhmm.

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)

Quote

Khyrindor (paraphrased)

Do the Honorblades reflect the natural pairing of Surges, or did Honor decide which Surge pair to put in each Blade?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The pairs are natural to Roshar in the same way as the metals on Scadrial.

When Worlds Collide 2014 (Aug. 9, 2014)

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

We usually see multiple magic systems in a world, are there more magic systems in Warbreaker that we haven't seen yet?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, there's just the one system in Warbreaker, and it's also a world with only one Shard on it.

Alloy of Law release party (Nov. 7, 2011)

Quote

Jeremy (paraphrased)

We know that Mistborn needed to Snap, and Surgebinders needed have the cracks in their souls filled. But what about the people in Warbreaker or Elantris? Is cracking and snapping only required on certain worlds?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

This is universal to the cosmere; however, in certain magic systems / on certain worlds, this is easier than others.

When Worlds Collide 2014 (Aug. 9, 2014)

Quote

insertcleverphrase

I know from reading your blog and various other comments that many of your books are in the same cosmos/universe, specifically Mistborn, Elantris, Warbreaker, and Way of Kings. I also am pretty sure that one day you'd like to do a series that ties all the different series/books together into one super-series. So my question is, would the various magic systems work on different worlds? For example, would a Mistborn be able to use his/her abilities in the world Way of Kings is located on?

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on the magic system. They are all related to a kind of "Spiritual DNA" that one gets from their heritage on a specific planet. However, there are ways around that. (Hemalurgy, for example, 'staples' a piece of someone else's soul to your own, and creates a work around to give you access to magic you shouldn't have.) Some of the magics are more regionally tied than others. (In Elantris, you have to access the Dor, which is very regionally influenced.)

The end answer is this: With in-depth knowledge of how the magics work, and their connection, one could probably get them all to work on other planets. It may take effort for some of them.

/r/fantasy AMA 2011 (Aug. 31, 2011)

There are more... All of the magics are tied to their world through creation, the nature of the Spiritual Realm is why they can be used elsewhere. 

And as for the Avatars, if the entity holding the power changed the magic system, than all of the systems on Scadrial should have changed with the Ascension of Harmony. 

 

[Karger]

3 hours ago, Honorless said:

That one might be out-of-date

There were newer WoBs by Brandon on surviving decapitation usually by picking TLR as example, either Brandon changed his mind or Peter was misremembering. Ugh, I'm not hunting all of them down.

Just thinking about the real world though I am kind of surprised that Reshek's survival has not been exaggerated even more.  However my point is that knock off lord ruler having magic and him having an overinflated ego and a propaganda mill are not all mutually exclusive possibilities.

[Honorless]

50 minutes ago, Karger said:

Just thinking about the real world though I am kind of surprised that Reshek's survival has not been exaggerated even more.  However my point is that knock off lord ruler having magic and him having an overinflated ego and a propaganda mill are not all mutually exclusive possibilities.

I don't think Baon's statements are unreliable. He seems to have witnessed some of it himself. Though maybe not to the scale of decapitation, but who knows?

Regardless, that was just something that I thought I should point out to you because of your theory of Skathan being an Avatar, which I don't agree with.

I believe Skathan is utilizing the Shifting Colours somehow. That would also explain Khriss' statement that Autonomy has Invested both Dayside and Darkside, discounting the belief that she had only Invested Dayside.

[Karger]

On 11/4/2019 at 8:34 PM, Honorless said:

I believe Skathan is utilizing the Shifting Colours somehow. That would also explain Khriss' statement that Autonomy has Invested both Dayside and Darkside, discounting the belief that she had only Invested Dayside.

The two possibilities are not mutually exclusive.  We don't know much about Autonomy's avatars.

[Honorless]

4 hours ago, Karger said:

The two possibilities are not mutually exclusive.  We don't know much about Autonomy's avatars.

Given what we know of Skathan, he seems to be violating the Intent of Autonomy.

[Elegy]

Finally found the time to read Vol. 3 and can now participate on this discussion. Here's a few things worth mentioning.

Darkside doesn't have its own magic system. It has magical flora.

Quote

Rah179

How significant will the White Sand be to the cosmere? Any hints on the Shard that resides there?

Brandon Sanderson

Moderately. (Its magic has some cool ramifications for off world use, and several characters factor prominently into the Cosmere.)

Phantine

Is there more than one magic system in white sand?

Brandon Sanderson

Only one in the current outline.

WeiryWriter

Does the one magic have more than one variation? Because I got the impression that there was something going on on the Darkside? Though I guess the Sky Colors (I think that's what they're called, I read the draft you send out early 2014 so my recollection is a little fuzzy) don't have to be related to magic. Or you could have written them out if they were...

Brandon Sanderson

In intended the colors on Darkside to be more a matter of the ecology than the magic--though, on that planet, magic and ecology are very closely tied together. (Well, I guess most of the magics are.)

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 29, 2015)

Second, the Sand Lord is Autonomy. This WOB makes it sound like it isn't even an avatar of Bavadin, but Bavadin herself, but I see that it's up to interpretation:

Quote

Jasonioan

What is the Shard on White Sand? Because we've both read White Sand.

Brandon Sanderson

The Shard-- So what the Shard is doing is, the Shard is the Sand God. But I didn't bring it out much, there's only one Shard on the planet. And the Shard actually kind of resides in the atmosphere and stuff like that but we decided to bring the Shard out a little bit more in the comic book so when you read that you'll be able to find a little more.

Jasonioan

Does it take effect in the Darkside?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it does.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

Also:

2 hours ago, Honorless said:

Given what we know of Skathan, he seems to be violating the Intent of Autonomy.

He actually doesn't, if you go by the prose version. He's said to isolate the Darkside nations form each other, making trading hard and travel nearly impossible. That's the main reason why they want to put him down. It sounds an awful lot like how Bavadin meddles with everything. For her, manipulating something to be autonomous is still Autonomy.

EDIT:

Let me add one more, took me a while to find it. Brandon has implied that Autonomy's personas are present in White Sand:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

I'm going to be pretty tight-lipped for now. Let's at least let White Sand finish first--you will find her in there, though her touch on the story (directly) is light. She prefers to allow her personas to become the focus of attention.

General Reddit 2016 (Nov. 28, 2016)

And he's using plural, so I don't think he's only refering to the Sand Lord.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Elegy

[Honorless]

If what you theorized is true then wow I don't like Bavadin anymore!

Thanks, @Elegy!

I'm getting really curious about Shifting Colours now, since humans seem to be part of the magical ecology, rather than being muggle equivalent. Well, the magic on Dayside is also part of the flora: the lichen on the Sands

As for the use of plural, he could be referring to Trell. I think that character is only in the graphic novel version though

Please keep spoilers light, I haven't completed the White Sand prose yet!

 

I do have a few contentions with these though.

As you noted, the WoB isn't clear. Brandon is saying that the Sand Lord, the God of the Kerzta is Autonomy. The being claiming to be the Sand Lord that appeared before Elorin is not necessarily the same entity. After all, we do have examples of such subterfuge, like when Ruin pretended to be the Mist Spirit in Mistborn era 1, and Brandon has expressed willingness to include such in his plot ("the man who calls himself Taln") - this one's resolved, don't worry, in case anyone reading this just did a spit-take 

I always wondered if the being Elorin saw wasn't just a rogue Sand Master. We do know that many Daysiders have some aptitude for Sand Mastery, even though they have to be taught in order to be able to use it. Meaning that Sand Masters not belonging to the Diem is a possibility. All that we saw of that entity, in Elorin's recounting of the encounter, was covered in Sand after all (if it wasn't made entirely of Sand)

I'm mostly on the side of the Sand Lord being an Avatar of Autonomy though, rather than something more convoluted happening there. I still think that Skathan being an Avatar is unlikely. It seems more likely that he's someone who has discovered how to unlock a more powerful facet of the magic present there

Edited January 22, 2020 by Honorless
forgot to thank Elegy for hunting down those WoBs!

[Karger]

 

7 hours ago, Honorless said:

Given what we know of Skathan, he seems to be violating the Intent of Autonomy.

Yes.

5 hours ago, Elegy said:

He actually doesn't, if you go by the prose version. He's said to isolate the Darkside nations form each other, making trading hard and travel nearly impossible. That's the main reason why they want to put him down. It sounds an awful lot like how Bavadin meddles with everything. For her, manipulating something to be autonomous is still Autonomy.