SzethIsBadAsHell

How would you deal with the Fused

40 posts in this topic

With The Everstorm in play the Radiants are faced with a seemingly unwinable problem . The Fused that have fallen are reborn in the next Everstorm . So can u think up a solution . 

Here is few ideas I have and I wanted to run them by you guys to see what you thought ?

The Oathpact is weekend . How about Dalinar , Shallan , Kaladin form a new oathpact to try and keep the Fused on Brayse! 

2.   Dalinar , Kaladin , and Venli talk the Singers into abandoning the Fused and denying them bodies after they are slain . Probably the smartest solution . But you can’t anybody to agree on anything nowadays 

 

3. Find and locate a way to kill the Fused permenantly . The dagger that was used on the Herald should work on the Fused too . They are both Cognitive shadows . Nightblood should work too. If they could duplicate that dagger Moash had . It might be a start .

4.  Contest of champions : I just don’t see this working . Stormfather says this will only buy time . And now the Fused are set free . I just don’t see them stopping Cause Odium is forced to leave .

 

what do you guys think . ?

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You have listed many of the proposed solutions.  Let me see.  Taln is still an oathpact member.  If you could send him back to braize with an army to defend him and had a way of getting fresh bodies for said army it might hold longer.

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1 hour ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

The Oathpact is weekend . How about Dalinar , Shallan , Kaladin form a new oathpact to try and keep the Fused on Brayse! 

The Oathpact is just as weakened as it was when Taln was not he only one there. A new Oathpact changes nothing so long as the Everstorm functions. The Fused no longer return to Braize, because it catches them like a safety net. 

1 hour ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

Find and locate a way to kill the Fused permenantly . The dagger that was used on the Herald should work on the Fused too . They are both Cognitive shadows . Nightblood should work too. If they could duplicate that dagger Moash had . It might be a start .

This would be effective but impractical. You can kill them one by one with the only weapon currently available that actual can (Nightblood) at ridiculous cost and risk... But they will quickly become wary and it will take far to long to work.

1 hour ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

Dalinar , Kaladin , and Venli talk the Singers into abandoning the Fused and denying them bodies after they are slain . Probably the smartest solution . But you can’t anybody to agree on anything nowadays 

Venli has already started this, and it's not on any of them in particular. This in my mind is the key. There will be a fight, you won't convince everyone... But this isn't a fight of human vs singer. It's Odium vs. Everyone. Odium doesn't care who's fighting as long as they're fighting. 

The singers need an alternative to the rule of Odium and the Fused. A culture that is theirs in truth and not just imposed on them by humanity or Fused. 

Venli has started this in sharing the culture of the listeners. I believe Rlain's disappearance is to try and locate the survivors of Narak. If we can get an established community of singers/listeners, and even better a singer Bondsmith, then you can get a community that humans can try and reconcile their history with and a way for Nale to hold to his oaths and still turn against Odium bringing the Skybreakers with them. 

In this way, you don't even need to kill all the Fused. If the Singers aren't willing to side with Odium they won't give up their bodies to the Fused. 

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I don't think that denying them bodies is gonna work directly- they'll always be some idiots willing to give themselves up- but I'm not certain you'd need to go quite that far. I feel like if a majority of living Singers were against them, that would weaken their resolve. I feel like if they had face their descendants saying 'you've done enough; it's time for you to move on', they might allowed themselves to be convinced to stop. Or at least I'd like to think that. I'd like to think that when they said they intend to let their descendants rule once the war is over, they meant it. 

The contest of champions and the Oathpact are both fundamentally just delaying tactics; at best you might be able to get a few thousands years out of stuff like that, but they'll never be permanent solutions. 

Stuff like Nightblood and Vyre's Knife could work in theory, but there are a lot of ways it could go wrong. And that's the kind of solution that tends to create more problems than it solves in any case. Like it could be a decent plan if you just wanted to get rid of a specific especially nasty Fused, but trying to beat them all that way is gonna go bad. 

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6 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

With The Everstorm in play the Radiants are faced with a seemingly unwinable problem . The Fused that have fallen are reborn in the next Everstorm . So can u think up a solution . 

Here is few ideas I have and I wanted to run them by you guys to see what you thought ?

The Oathpact is weekend . How about Dalinar , Shallan , Kaladin form a new oathpact to try and keep the Fused on Brayse! 

2.   Dalinar , Kaladin , and Venli talk the Singers into abandoning the Fused and denying them bodies after they are slain . Probably the smartest solution . But you can’t anybody to agree on anything nowadays 

 

3. Find and locate a way to kill the Fused permenantly . The dagger that was used on the Herald should work on the Fused too . They are both Cognitive shadows . Nightblood should work too. If they could duplicate that dagger Moash had . It might be a start .

4.  Contest of champions : I just don’t see this working . Stormfather says this will only buy time . And now the Fused are set free . I just don’t see them stopping Cause Odium is forced to leave .

 

what do you guys think . ?

Please delete option 1, it hurts my soul

Edited by Honorless
might also be the spelling. Oathpact is most definitely not a 'weekend' but weakened
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I noticed nobody mentioned that any singers recruited and bonded to radiant spren would likely be protected.

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9 minutes ago, Solant said:

I noticed nobody mentioned that any singers recruited and bonded to radiant spren would likely be protected.

I didn't feel it was worth mentioning, because frankly, I think this is bigger than the radiants. 

Having them as radiants as well should definitely happen, but that should be a natural part of getting them away from the Fused and becoming a unified force against Odium. 

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Denying the fused fresh bodies is part of the solution but there has to be more. Clearly. 

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14 hours ago, Gilphon said:

I don't think that denying them bodies is gonna work directly- they'll always be some idiots willing to give themselves up- but I'm not certain you'd need to go quite that far. I feel like if a majority of living Singers were against them, that would weaken their resolve. I feel like if they had face their descendants saying 'you've done enough; it's time for you to move on', they might allowed themselves to be convinced to stop. Or at least I'd like to think that. I'd like to think that when they said they intend to let their descendants rule once the war is over, they meant it. 

I don't think you need to ensure no singer is willing to give up there bodies to the Fused - just limit the supply of bodies the Fused have access to. I think its entirely plausible to reach a point where only a few hundred Fused can be fielded at a time because a.) Most of the singers no longer side with Odium and b.) Nobody wants to die! If it were actually common knowledge that inviting a Fused into your body meant suicide, and they didn't have Fused and voidspren all about them driving them to give up their bodies, I doubt many singers would willingly host a Fused. A few hundred Fused can do almost nothing, not if Roshar is united, the Orders are refounded, and they have no singer infantry to help them. At this point, Odium would be all but defeated. I don't see it reaching this point though, since there will likely be a much more direct confrontation with Odium himself at some point.

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20 hours ago, Calderis said:

The Oathpact is just as weakened as it was when Taln was not he only one there. A new Oathpact changes nothing so long as the Everstorm functions. The Fused no longer return to Braize, because it catches them like a safety net. 

This would be effective but impractical. You can kill them one by one with the only weapon currently available that actual can (Nightblood) at ridiculous cost and risk... But they will quickly become wary and it will take far to long to work.

Venli has already started this, and it's not on any of them in particular. This in my mind is the key. There will be a fight, you won't convince everyone... But this isn't a fight of human vs singer. It's Odium vs. Everyone. Odium doesn't care who's fighting as long as they're fighting. 

The singers need an alternative to the rule of Odium and the Fused. A culture that is theirs in truth and not just imposed on them by humanity or Fused. 

Venli has started this in sharing the culture of the listeners. I believe Rlain's disappearance is to try and locate the survivors of Narak. If we can get an established community of singers/listeners, and even better a singer Bondsmith, then you can get a community that humans can try and reconcile their history with and a way for Nale to hold to his oaths and still turn against Odium bringing the Skybreakers with them. 

In this way, you don't even need to kill all the Fused. If the Singers aren't willing to side with Odium they won't give up their bodies to the Fused. 

On the topic of killing the Fused directly:  We know that a shardblade wound wont kill/end a Fused, but we also know as a general statement that the Fused are very similar to natural spren.  And we have seen a Shardblade kill a Spren when it was attacked directly.  That last makes me wonder if there is a way to kill a fused with a Shardblade if you have the right circumstances.  Perhaps, like Hemalurgy, you might be able to attack them directly if you access their CR form, if perhaps it is distinct from attacking one that has traveled to the CR with a Singer host?

 

Just spit-balling....

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I think the best chance for a permanent solution is get the Singer and Humans to make peace and live together. That will help convince the Fused (sane ones anyways) that they are not needed. Get them to relinquish Odium's gift that sustains them or refuse to continue to work for him and then he takes it back as he threatened one Fused with toward the end of OB. 

They can kill some with Nightblood. That Thunderclast Szeth killed isn't coming back.

 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/355/#e10440  

It's unrealistic to eliminate all the Fused with Nightblood, it is too dangerous to use for more than short bursts. Something like the Vyre's knife might work, but trapping them in a gem is only temporary. 

The Oathpact did not end up being a permanent solution as it was meant to be. Finding replacement Heralds won't work forever either and is really cruel now that everyone knows it's non-stop torture for those that have to go. 

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I think stopping the everstorm will be part of it. Additionally I think they may need to find some way to take away the fused's immortality - probably with some special as yet unseen bondsmith wizardry.

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2 hours ago, rjl said:

I think stopping the everstorm will be part of it. Additionally I think they may need to find some way to take away the fused's immortality - probably with some special as yet unseen bondsmith wizardry.

15,000 listeners sacrificed thier lives to create the Everstorm . While I won’t pretend I understand the mechanics of the Everstorm I will say this . As a rule of fantasy all magic has a cost . Magic that is that heavily invested would take an equal amount of investiture to reverse it . So I really don’t see that as a option. 

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Item #: SCP-999

Object Class: Safe

Special Containment Procedures: SCP-999 is to be kept at all times restrained and lightly sedated inside an unfurnished containment cell with softly padded interior walls to prevent subject self-harm.  The floor, ceiling, and walls of the special containment cell are to contain a thin layer of embedded aluminum, rendering contamination of the cell with outside magical influences impossible, as well as obscuring the contents of the cell from outside magical detection.

The comfort, safety, and continued survival of SCP-999 is a top priority, and they will provided with round the clock observation and medical care.  A certified Knight Radiant of the orders Truthwatcher or Edgedancer will be kept on-call at all times to deliver if necessary a life preserving surge of Regrowth to SCP-999.  All necessary efforts will be exercised to prevent the expiration of SCP-999's current host body.

Any interaction with SCP-999 beyond the administration of life prolonging care must receive pre-clearance from Director J. Kholin.

Description: SCP-99 is a "Fused", a spiritual parasite in the service of Odium which has infected and taken complete control of the body of a "willing" Singer sacrificed to Odium's cause.  In addition to a latent affinity for voidbinding, the parasite's lifetimes of accrued combat experience, as well as willingness to sacrifice current vessels to achieve greater strategic goals results in one of the most effective elite agents of Odium's army. 

As killing the current vessel of the SCP-999 merely frees the parasite to infect a new host body; capture, quarantine and preservation of an infected host body has the effect of containing SCP-999 and preventing further reincarnation as long as the current vessel's life functions are preserved.

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1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Item #: SCP-999

Object Class: Safe

Special Containment Procedures: SCP-999 is to be kept at all times restrained and lightly sedated inside an unfurnished containment cell with softly padded interior walls to prevent subject self-harm.  The floor, ceiling, and walls of the special containment cell are to contain a thin layer of embedded aluminum, rendering contamination of the cell with outside magical influences impossible, as well as obscuring the contents of the cell from outside magical detection.

The comfort, safety, and continued survival of SCP-999 is a top priority, and they will provided with round the clock observation and medical care.  A certified Knight Radiant of the orders Truthwatcher or Edgedancer will be kept on-call at all times to deliver if necessary a life preserving surge of Regrowth to SCP-999.  All necessary efforts will be exercised to prevent the expiration of SCP-999's current host body.

Any interaction with SCP-999 beyond the administration of life prolonging care must receive pre-clearance from Director J. Kholin.

Description: SCP-99 is a "Fused", a spiritual parasite in the service of Odium which has infected and taken complete control of the body of a "willing" Singer sacrificed to Odium's cause.  In addition to a latent affinity for voidbinding, the parasite's lifetimes of accrued combat experience, as well as willingness to sacrifice current vessels to achieve greater strategic goals results in one of the most effective elite agents of Odium's army. 

As killing the current vessel of the SCP-999 merely frees the parasite to infect a new host body; capture, quarantine and preservation of an infected host body has the effect of containing SCP-999 and preventing further reincarnation as long as the current vessel's life functions are preserved.

My friend actually introduced me to SCP last year . Interesting 

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As two armies approach each other, have Shallan make illusions that each person has a Nightblood. 
The Fused will panic, while the everyday Parshmen are disgusted as they are abandoned on the battlefield. Tremendous morale destruction of enemy. 

It may only work once, but it would be devastating. 

Another option, higher risk, higher possible benefit, would be the old Vasher technique of giving him to a group of angry people, and letting them kill themselves. It worked well enough on Nalthis, but I worry how well it would work on Roshar. 

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Not 100% sure it would hold them (depending on what sort of realmic travel they are capable of once they abandon their host) but one solution would be to Soulcast the air around them into a block of Aluminum.  This should be able to hold most things, including a Fused and potentially an Unmade You might need to lure the Unmade into a Gem first, but it wouldnt have to be Perfect.

Edited by Quantus
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1 hour ago, Quantus said:

Not 100% sure it would hold them (depending on what sort of realmic travel they are capable of once they abandon their host) but one solution would be to Soulcast the air around them into a block of Aluminum.  This should be able to hold most things, including a Fused and potentially an Unmade You might need to lure the Unmade into a Gem first, but it wouldnt have to be Perfect.

That’s a good idea except for one thing . Aluminum is allomanticly inert . It’s Also anti investiture. In other words you soulcast aluminum . Now you could build some aluminum cages but I don’t think aluminum is native to Roshar . It’s rare , the only source is the meteors that fall from the sky !

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12 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

That’s a good idea except for one thing . Aluminum is allomanticly inert . It’s Also anti investiture. In other words you soulcast aluminum . Now you could build some aluminum cages but I don’t think aluminum is native to Roshar . It’s rare , the only source is the meteors that fall from the sky !

We have a lot of conflicting information regarding aluminum. Based on what I have read, I believe you can turn something into aluminum, but not aluminum into something else

 

Some of the conflicting pieces of information we have, I have listed below. if you would like the quotes or WoB themselves, please ask, and I will do my best to pull them up later

1. Shallan has a necklace of aluminum, and says aluminum is only made via soulcasting.

2. We have a WoB with Brandon saying Shallan is not necessarily right. Some have taken this to mean you cannot soulcast aluminum. I have taken this to mean that soulcasting is not the only way. 

3. We have a WoB where the questioner says that we know you can soulcast things into aluminum, but what about turning aluminum into something else. Brandon then says it takes a whole lot of investiture, beyond what is feasible, to turn aluminum into something else. Personally I think if you could not soulcast things into aluminum, Brandon would have corrected the questioner, but others feel that that is an assumption, and not a confirmation. 

4. We have Taravangian mentioning the aluminum coming from meteorites. 

5. Despite all this, when Hoid showed up with sheets of aluminum, the people there did not seem to recognize it. So some take that to mean people do not know what aluminum is on whole on Roshar. Personally I take that as there is a war going on, they do not know how screamers function, so would not understand why that metal would protect them versus not. 

 

I think that is everything. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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Assuming you could get the Fused or Unmade into the gem in the first place, encasing it in aluminum should work. 

Quote

OrangeJedi

So, Kaladin obviously draws Stormlight from a pouch, all the time... If the pouch was coated in, say aluminum, would he still be able to draw the Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

No. Good question.

OrangeJedi

What about if it was coated in silver?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, he probably still could.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

If just an aluminum lined bag prevents drawing stormlight out of gems, I'd have to imagine that actually sealing it completely would trap anything that's in the gem. 

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Splinter Odium simple answer. without him(I think) the everstorm will fail(The High storm is run by the stormfather powered by honor now). I think this would work I would like to know if I'm missing something.

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2 hours ago, Booknerd said:

Splinter Odium simple answer. without him(I think) the everstorm will fail(The High storm is run by the stormfather powered by honor now). I think this would work I would like to know if I'm missing something.

Honor is splintered and all of the spren, the highstorms, and the Heralds remain, including the mechanism of the Oathpact that returns them to bodies. 

In parallel, the Fused, the voidspren, and the Everstorm should all remain as well. 

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I've answered this question before, but seeing as the format changed and there are new cards, a new banlist, and a completely new mechanic in Link Monsters, I figure that I should update it.

I think that the first priority for any player has to be negating Odium's Field Spell, Everstorm.  That card is insanely busted and allows him to infinitely recover his destroyed Fused monsters while providing investiture for effects.

Set Rotation is a hard counter that will completely prevent him from activating a field spell, but since it's limited to 1 and not searchable, it's not reliable.  Same goes for Imperial Order.  I think that both triple Ghost Ogre & Snow Rabbit and Ash Blossom & Joyous Spring are necessary to either negate or destroy Everstorm, especially if Odium moves first.

If you can't stop him from spamming the field, Nibiru, the Primal Being can wipe his board in an instant.  And since it doesn't destroy, Odium won't be able to recover those fused.  Evenly Matched can also do this, but is much riskier.

Ultimately though, I think that the best way to beat Odium is to abuse the mirror match.  Ghost Reaper & Winter Cherries can snipe crucial play extenders from his extra deck, and Super Polymerization is spell speed 4 mass removal that can give you a beatstick.  I think that an anti-meta control deck focused around a Sky Striker or Thunder Dragon engine would provide enough firepower and resource recursion to simply grind him out.

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16 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

We have a lot of conflicting information regarding aluminum. Based on what I have read, I believe you can turn something into aluminum, but not aluminum into something else

 

Some of the conflicting pieces of information we have, I have listed below. if you would like the quotes or WoB themselves, please ask, and I will do my best to pull them up later

1. Shallan has a necklace of aluminum, and says aluminum is only made via soulcasting.

2. We have a WoB with Brandon saying Shallan is not necessarily right. Some have taken this to mean you cannot soulcast aluminum. I have taken this to mean that soulcasting is not the only way. 

3. We have a WoB where the questioner says that we know you can soulcast things into aluminum, but what about turning aluminum into something else. Brandon then says it takes a whole lot of investiture, beyond what is feasible, to turn aluminum into something else. Personally I think if you could not soulcast things into aluminum, Brandon would have corrected the questioner, but others feel that that is an assumption, and not a confirmation. 

4. We have Taravangian mentioning the aluminum coming from meteorites. 

5. Despite all this, when Hoid showed up with sheets of aluminum, the people there did not seem to recognize it. So some take that to mean people do not know what aluminum is on whole on Roshar. Personally I take that as there is a war going on, they do not know how screamers function, so would not understand why that metal would protect them versus not. 

 

I think that is everything. 

Thing is not every soulcaster can soulcast Metal . Some only soulcast smoke , or blood . Now if your talking about a Radiant soulcasting it . I suppose Jasnah might have the scholarly knowledge and raw will to do it . I just don’t see it as an effective option . Besides Shallan , I don’t even think any Radiant knows about alluminum . Shallan knows it blocks soanreads but she might not make the leap to figure this out. But let’s say for argument sake they soulcast stone cages and coated it with aluminum or better yet wooden beams covered with aluminum and then encased in stone . You could trap them inside , if they killed themselves they would probably slip free . The cage would have to be solid or like calderis said. Somehow get them in a gemheart and coat that with aluminum. And hope no crazy parshmen doesn’t free them 1000 years later. So they have to be permenatky killed , like Nightblood style for the threat never to return! 

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39 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

Thing is not every soulcaster can soulcast Metal . Some only soulcast smoke , or blood . Now if your talking about a Radiant soulcasting it . I suppose Jasnah might have the scholarly knowledge and raw will to do it . I just don’t see it as an effective option . Besides Shallan , I don’t even think any Radiant knows about alluminum . Shallan knows it blocks soanreads but she might not make the leap to figure this out. But let’s say for argument sake they soulcast stone cages and coated it with aluminum or better yet wooden beams covered with aluminum and then encased in stone . You could trap them inside , if they killed themselves they would probably slip free . The cage would have to be solid or like calderis said. Somehow get them in a gemheart and coat that with aluminum. And hope no crazy parshmen doesn’t free them 1000 years later. So they have to be permenatky killed , like Nightblood style for the threat never to return! 

True not every fabrial soulcaster can soulcast metal, and some are even set to certain metals (like bronze in Azir). I was just commenting on the potential to soulcast aluminum. Yes I believe radiant soulcasting would be capable of making aluminum. It is a base metal, not an alloy, so the soulcaster would just need to be familiar with aluminum for the metal to default to base aluminum. For alloys or certain percentages to be burned by a mistborn, the soulcaster has to intend it (WoB). 

As for actually doing it, stone has been soulcasted from air plenty of times. I see no reason why an aluminum block to encase an enemy could not be soulcasted from the very air around the enemy. But as I mentioned in my post, there is conflicting information, so if you think Shallan and Jasnah would not be able to gain the knowledge to do so, then to each their own. I think they could. 

As to trapping them without a gemheart in a block of aluminum, unless they could some how exert enough force to punch a hole through, I do not see how the body, or the fused would escape. The fused are investiture. That is why the cube would be solid all the way around. Not bars. So they would remain trapped. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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