Did humans send their souls into Roshar's matter?

[Ripheus23]

I was thinking that, maybe the Spiritual Realm analogy of the Oathgates, the tentative description of the way humans got to Roshar from Ashyn, is what the Dawnshards were. And that what the Dawnshards do, is move souls.

So, like, that's part of how the Fused system worked, sending their souls to another planet. But so now, what if the way humans got to Roshar, was by sending their souls into the landscape, like when thunderclasts arise? And that the issue now is that humans won't be able to send their souls somewhere else to survive, if they needed to. Or, without the Dawnshards, they can't replace the Heralds, or something like that.

[Karger]

34 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

So, like, that's part of how the Fused system worked, sending their souls to another planet. But so now, what if the way humans got to Roshar, was by sending their souls into the landscape, like when thunderclasts arise? And that the issue now is that humans won't be able to send their souls somewhere else to survive, if they needed to. Or, without the Dawnshards, they can't replace the Heralds, or something like that.

Humans have bodies.

[Weltall]

The Fused are Cognitive Shadows who possess singer bodies and the power of multiple Shards are in play affecting their ability to resurrect. They still need Physical bodies to possess or they're just going to sit around in the subastral not really doing anything. If the humans from Ashyn had somehow become Cognitive Shadows and gone to Roshar that way (which would contradict the WoB that in his current conception of it they got there via the Spiritual Realm) they wouldn't have a mechanism for regaining Physical bodies on their own and the only ones even remotely similar to theirs on Roshar are, y'know, an entirely different species.

In other words, I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say.

[Ripheus23]

Idk were the original humans' bodies formed like thunderclasts maybe? I mean, not on Ashyn, but to get to Roshar.

[Weltall]

That's just saying the same thing in fewer words; it still makes no sense.

[Ripheus23]

Idk what you mean by no sense. You can clearly visualize souls being sent into matter to animate it. The visual might be false but it is not meaningless.

[Fezzik]

4 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

into matter to animate it.

Where does this come from? Thunderclasts animate stone; they have bodies of stone. Where or How would human bodies be formed for the souls of humans to inhabit?

[Ripheus23]

That's what I'd like to know. Maybe there were stages where humans became spren first.

[Weltall]

Spren are Splinters which means they were never human. You might as well wonder whether the first Chulls escaped off someone's plate of escargot on Earth, fell through a hole in spacetime and ended up on Roshar where they grew to enormous size. That makes just as much sense as what you're asking.

Edited October 26, 2019 by Weltall

[Ripheus23]

Spren is a catch-all term, and we know there are equivalents of spren that were formerly people (e.g. the Fused).

So actually my idea is now even worse: not only were humans the first Voidbringers, what if they were the first Fused? (Not "officially," but I mean what if humans did the same kind of thing in the beginning?)

[Quantus]

15 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

Spren is a catch-all term, and we know there are equivalents of spren that were formerly people (e.g. the Fused).

So actually my idea is now even worse: not only were humans the first Voidbringers, what if they were the first Fused? (Not "officially," but I mean what if humans did the same kind of thing in the beginning?)

I dont think so, we know the Heralds were still human when the migration occurred, and only became the sorts of Cognitive Shadows you describe after they arrived on Roshar.  

 

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Willshaper Wallar

...Were the Heralds alive for the human exodus from Ashyn?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. They were not Heralds then, but they all made that trip. I believe. My timeline-- You can't nail me down on that one, because it's possible that Ash was born after, but I don't think so.

Skyward Denver signing (Nov. 15, 2018)

 

 

Aslo, for what it's worth, we've been told specifically that the Heralds process is not related to that of the Fused, though in rough drafts it was.

 

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Questioner

How do the Heralds come back? As Cognitive Shadows, how do they a physical body?

Brandon Sanderson

That system will be explained in the coming books, so that is a RAFO. I'm gonna dig into it pretty deeply. It's relevant for multiple reasons...

In the original version, Taln ended up in someone else, like they would get a body from someone else, which was part of fueling the "Is he crazy, is he not," because people were like, "I recognize this guy!" I don't use that system anymore.

Questioner

That's what I was wondering, because the Fused--

Brandon Sanderson

They use something kind of more like the Fused in the original draft, it's not that process anymore.

Questioner

Is that gonna give us lead-ins to how it worked with Kelsier?

Brandon Sanderson

Maybe. Maybe. You shall see.

Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018)

 

 

[Ripheus23]

Darn 

[Weltall]

17 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

Spren is a catch-all term, and we know there are equivalents of spren that were formerly people (e.g. the Fused).

'Spren' is a Rosharan term, not a Cosmere-aware one. Rosharans would call the Shards spren even though there's a distinct difference between a chunk of self-aware Investiture and a functionally infinite mass of non-aware Investiture bonded to a formerly mortal host. The Fused are not Splinters, they're Cognitive Shadows. Are you confused by the distinction here?

Also, as we have been telling you, even if the first humans to cross over from Ashyn somehow became Cognitive Shadows, they would have no way of getting bodies back at the other end. The Fused can only regain Physical form because the singers (who are the same race the Fused were before becoming Shadows) are there to be possessed. A human CS coming from Ashyn would have nowhere to go. The idea that they somehow go 'into the landscape' makes no sense because that doesn't answer the question of how they have normal human bodies.

Also, Thunderclasts are not Fused:

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macros

Did Thunderclasts exist on Roshar outside of Desolations?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. They can. They did not normally, they theoretically can, okay?

Calamity Philadelphia signing (Feb. 20, 2016)

The Fused by definition cannot exist on Roshar except during a Desolation but a Thunderclast theoretically can. Ergo, not the same thing.

Also, your entire line of thinking goes against Occam's Razor. We know Spiritual Realm travel exists and it doesn't require you to sacrifice your body. Cognitive Realm travel requires you to physically cross the distance between locations but Oathgates, Aon Tia and whatever the Dakhor monks use teleports you instantly from place to place. Brandon's current conception for how humans got to Roshar is similar to how Oathgates function and makes use of the Spiritual, ergo instant teleportation and no 'They needed to send their disembodied souls over' required.

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Questioner

Did humans come to Roshar through Shadesmar?

Brandon Sanderson

It is technology or magic closer to how the Oathgates work. But it was like that. It's not canon but right now that's what I have. It's not canon because there are certain things I have to work out before that can work...

By the way I'll just say to the tape recording that I haven't canonized, like for instance if they traveled to Shadesmar to get to Shinovar from Ashyn. Right now I have that not being via Shadesmar, but the mechanics of that might not work out, and I might have to default to Shadesmar. So there's certain things, you'll see, where I say, "This isn't the canon answer, it's where I have things right now."

Overlord Jebus

So Urithiru might end up being a spaceship after all.

Brandon Sanderson

It's not that. Right now I have them using something closer to Oathgating, but it opens up a huge can of worms, when I'm not requiring direct-- When I'm sending through Spiritual Realm it opens up cans of worms, and I have to just make sure the mechanics on that are tight before I do it.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

Even Cognitive Realm travel doesn't require you to become a Cognitive Shadow first, it just requires that you have a way to transition between Realms at each end of the journey. So yeah, your premises are all completely wonky and contradict what Brandon has said.

[Ripheus23]

Umm Brandon himself isn't settled on how the process works and in a universe where you can have super-permanent tattoos because of spiritual ideals I daresay using objects like Dawnshards to power a soul-sending could "heal" a whole body into existence on the other end, from the available matter, maybe. No crazier than sucking the color out of things to make cloth come to life or ingesting metals in order to be able to move entire planets around, is it?

[Weltall]

15 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

Umm Brandon himself isn't settled on how the process works and in a universe where you can have super-permanent tattoos because of spiritual ideals I daresay using objects like Dawnshards to power a soul-sending could "heal" a whole body into existence on the other end, from the available matter, maybe. No crazier than sucking the color out of things to make cloth come to life or ingesting metals in order to be able to move entire planets around, is it?

Actually yes, your idea is crazier than those things because it directly contradicts everything we've seen and that Brandon has said regarding the Ashyn exodus, how Cognitive Shadows work and how the Thunderclasts are their own thing. 'super-permanent tattoos because of spiritual ideals' is consistent across the Cosmere with how healing is affected by your Cognitive self-image. Your idea is not consistent with anything we've seen from Brandon in regards to Cognitive Shadows or travel.

To reiterate: Thunderclast =/= Fused. The one is a spren animating stone and can theoretically appear on Roshar even when there isn't a Desolation going on. The Fused are Cognitive Shadows (ie, the 'souls' of dead singers) who possess currently living singer bodies. They're not the same type of entity and you can't use the mechanics of one to justify an argument based on the mechanics of the other, plus you still can't explain where the human bodies come from on the other end. Your idea raises far more questions than it answers and the explanations we already have not only don't raise these questions but don't raise additional ones. In other words, you fail Occam's Razor hard.

The Heralds started out as human, positing that they (with the possible exception of Ash) became Cognitive Shadows to go to Roshar, then humans again, then Cognitive Shadows again is rather silly on the face of it when you can cut out the entire first transition and accept that they all came over to Roshar as humans and only became Cognitive Shadows after the Fused started appearing.

Brandon not being settled on the process does not mean your idea is more valid than either of the known methods of getting from world to world. Either they use Brandon's current method which uses the Spiritual Realm and is related to how the Oathgates function (which we can observe is nothing like your theory) which also meshes with other forms of Spiritual travel we've seen in Elantris, or they use the well-understood method of bodily transitioning into the Cognitive Realm, walking/sailing/whatever from their origin to their destination on the other end and then transitioning back. You'll note that he left 'Shadesmar travel' as the fallback alternative to his Spiritual travel, so even if he changes his mind on the 'magic/technology like Oathgates' conception, the fallback is the well-understood method of subastral travel, not 'LOL let's make human Thunderclasts somehow' that you seem to think is in any way logical.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Weltall