Something interesting to note about Harmony (spoilers for up to Alloy of Law)

[aneonfoxtribute]

In the original Terris prophecies, when talking about the Hero of Ages, it says "His name shall be Discord". Brandon has said that it is possible for Harmony's Intent to turn into Discord. I wonder if the Terris prophecy will still be relevant, or if Harmony will turn to Discord in the series. 

[Calderis]

Honestly, I hope not. 

Preservation's literally millenia long plan foretold pretty much everything except for that one line perfectly. 

Foresight in the Cosmere seems to be probabilistic, and the plan threaded so many needles in a Longshot hail Mary that I'd really really like for something to be off. 

[Halyo_Alex]

Personally, my take on this is that he's suffering from Passion Syndrome, where he's claiming to be one Intent, but is actually another, even so far as to lie to himself about it. After all, you would think that a shard named Harmony would have no issue acting without resistance from its own power. Instead, we see that Harmony struggles to act because of the "conflicting" intents of the two shards he picked up, due to him creating the Elendel Basin and making it such a paradise. We can even see he regrets making such a severe change to Scadrial because it may have limited technological advancement for Era 2 Scadrians. They don't need to innovate to survive, so they don't. They don't change.

I think we'll see him become true Harmony at some point either just before or during the end of the Era 3 trilogy, by reconciling the nature of his power in some way. It may be that he calls himself harmony and tells everyone he is in the hopes that the collective cognition of Scadrians will "fix" his Intent, but that's literally just a guess. It could just as easily be that he wants to sounds benevolent because he wants to be benevolent, but that sort of falls along a similar vein. He wants people to think he's Harmony so that he becomes Harmony. But I think the issue is more fundamental than cognitive perception of his Intent. I think he does need to actually reconcile the Intents of his two shards and he may experience some sort of "super ascension" when he does so, becoming actual, true Harmony, instead of Discord-claiming-to-be-Harmony.

But this is all just speculation and I could be totally wrong, we won't know until Brandon tells us, either via book or WoB.

[Honorless]

4 hours ago, aneonfoxtribute said:

In the original Terris prophecies, when talking about the Hero of Ages, it says "His name shall be Discord". Brandon has said that it is possible for Harmony's Intent to turn into Discord. I wonder if the Terris prophecy will still be relevant, or if Harmony will turn to Discord in the series. 

I think he will

Ati was changed after holding Ruin for so long. Tanavast seems to have changed too, after holding Honor. Why should Sazed be any different?

Edited October 20, 2019 by Honorless

[Karger]

26 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

It may be that he calls himself harmony and tells everyone he is in the hopes that the collective cognition of Scadrians will "fix" his Intent, but that's literally just a guess

That is not how it works.  A shard's Intent is mutable.  The vessel via cognition and act of willpower can exert some control over this but in the end they eventually loose.

18 minutes ago, Honorless said:

I think he will

Ati was changed after holding Ruin for so long. Tanavast seems to have changed too, after holding Honor. Why should Sazed be any different?

Saze's powers are perfectly balanced. 

[Honorless]

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

That is not how it works.  A shard's Intent is mutable.  The vessel via cognition and act of willpower can exert some control over this but in the end they eventually loose.

Saze's powers are perfectly balanced. 

And according to you yourself, that may eventually change

[Halyo_Alex]

36 minutes ago, Karger said:

That is not how it works.  A shard's Intent is mutable.  The vessel via cognition and act of willpower can exert some control over this but in the end they eventually loose.

Saze's powers are perfectly balanced. 

Yes, but... 1. Sazed is holding 2 shards with perfectly opposite Intents, to the point where the two cannot fight directly because it hurts them. Imagine what sort of madness trying to merge them would wreak on both the Intent and the Vessel.

2. Are they "perfectly" balanced? They balanced in such a way that he finds acting according to either of them to be so against the other that he can barely act now that he has been acclimated to this dual Intent.

32 minutes ago, Honorless said:

And according to you yourself, that may eventually change

Agreed. Hence why I suggested that he may be trying to get enough collective Cognitive belief that he is Harmony to actually change his intent and 'fix' that imbalance.

[Honorless]

Indeed, Equilibrium is a difficult state to maintain.
I take his name as grim foreshadowing...

[Halyo_Alex]

Just now, Honorless said:

Indeed, Equilibrium is a difficult state to maintain.
I take his name as grim foreshadowing...

Another theory I've seen is that Trell itself is actually a Splinter of "Harmony" (Discord) and that's why Trellium is such a weird metal, and why it seems intent on sowing Discord among the Scadrians.

[Aon Tia]

1 hour ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Are they "perfectly" balanced? They balanced in such a way that he finds acting according to either of them to be so against the other that he can barely act now that he has been acclimated to this dual Intent.

Also, is it not true that preservation had invested way more into the scadrial system when they made it. That was the reason that he was weaker than ruin and he had to hide his body. 

If ati had managed to find his body, he would be significantly more powerful than preservation. 

So in that sense, are the two shards perfectly balanced? Discord instead of harmony makes more sense to me. 

one more thing, I have always wanted to know. What happened to all that atium they burned away. Usually atium geodes would have regrown after 300 years. But now there will be no new atium but that part of ruin which was more, which was consumed by elend and his mistings, will that part of ruin grow again? 

Will that make ruin portion of the shard stronger? 

May be that is why sazed is now, after 300 yrs or some is finding balancing the two forces difficult... 

it is all just speculation guys but I have always wondered about it. Ever since I knew that era 2 was 300 yrs after era 1. 

[Calderis]

@Halyo_Alex I disagree.

Harmony, as a name, is not truly an "intent." its a relational description of the way that the Shards interact within Sazed.

Ruin,as the force that is entropy, is inherently negative. Preservation, as stasis/momentum/status quo or whatever you want to see it as is neutral. A middle ground between those two points is not "Harmony" or "discord." 

And Sazed isn't discord. He's not erratic. He's not unstable. He's genuinely trying to do the best he can with lack of experience. 

The problem is that he's not one shard. The powers do not cancel each other out. 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Sazed is a Shard. Just like a king of two countries is still a king, a holder of two Shards is a Shard.

Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011)

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Sazed's two Shards do not "cancel out", as Brandon said that it would like being pulled by two huge gravitational tides. You can get to a way that you aren't instantly ripped apart, but that doesn't mean you don't feel it. (When asked what effect the Shards would have on Sazed, Brandon said, "Read Alloy of Law to find out".)

Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011)

His conflict exists because no matter what action he tries to take, it's opposed by one of the two intents he holds. He has to struggle to work in the wiggle room between them. 

I think he is Harmony because of his view of both forces as natural and necessary. The religion that follows him directly, the path, is all about self reflection and doing good. It's very fitting of the man Sazed was. 

[Honorless]

Well, that calls to question his inaction or at least lack of interceding on behalf of the well-being of Southern Scadrians, doesn't it?

Was that his Ruin?

While forming the Elendel basin and moving the underground caverns to safely transport the originators, was his act of Preservation, perhaps?

The people of northern Scadrial suffered a lot under the Final Empire, its collapse and then Ruin's freedom so they were given a little extra (Elendel Basin) whereas the Southern Scadrians weren't, so as to force them to develop, maybe, but could it also have been to conciliate his Ruin part?

Edited October 20, 2019 by Honorless

[Calderis]

Personally, I think his inexperience is why the southern scadrians suffered so much. He healed everything physical for those in the north, but there was nothing wrong with the Southerners genetically. Rashek used them as a failsafe in case his genetic modifications in TFE went horribly wrong. I think their issue was a Spiritual one, and Sazed missed it until it was to late and the intents started to limit him. (would be much easier to tell if we had any idea how long the window is that they can just act freely like he did with reshaping the world, or Vin with her open attacks on Ruin)

 

[StanLemon]

5 hours ago, Calderis said:

would be much easier to tell if we had any idea how long the window is that they can just act freely like he did with reshaping the world, or Vin with her open attacks on Ruin

I think it's a relatively short time span. Both Kelsier and Vin were already feeling the effects of the Intent after only days holding Preservation

[Karger]

10 hours ago, Honorless said:

And according to you yourself, that may eventually change

The intent itself cannot change.  The interpretation eventually can as Saze's willpower breaks down and the shards exert themselves more thoroughly.

9 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Yes, but... 1. Sazed is holding 2 shards with perfectly opposite Intents, to the point where the two cannot fight directly because it hurts them. Imagine what sort of madness trying to merge them would wreak on both the Intent and the Vessel.

No actually he is holding one shard made up of both Ruin and Preservation.

9 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

2. Are they "perfectly" balanced? They balanced in such a way that he finds acting according to either of them to be so against the other that he can barely act now that he has been acclimated to this dual Intent.

He has a single dual intent.  He has to preserve and destroy at the same time.  Kind of a yin yang situation.  Saze is able to accurately wield this shard because he recognizes the complimentary nature of opposite forces.

9 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Agreed. Hence why I suggested that he may be trying to get enough collective Cognitive belief that he is Harmony to actually change his intent and 'fix' that imbalance.

Accept only Sazed's willpower effects the shard.  Other people can imagine Harmony as they wish but Saze is the one who actually keeps that power on a leash.

9 hours ago, Honorless said:

Indeed, Equilibrium is a difficult state to maintain.
I take his name as grim foreshadowing...

I think Cal got this one.

[Honorless]

8 minutes ago, Karger said:

The intent itself cannot change.  The interpretation eventually can as Saze's willpower breaks down and the shards exert themselves more thoroughly.

Exactly...?

[Karger]

2 hours ago, Honorless said:

Exactly...?

My point was that Harmony would be Harmony unless Saze actually wants to get in a willpower pushing match with 1/8 of adonalsium's power.

[Calderis]

3 hours ago, Karger said:

My point was that Harmony would be Harmony unless Saze actually wants to get in a willpower pushing match with 1/8 of adonalsium's power.

This is only true if you think that Harmony is an accurate descriptor of the "intent" pushed forth by the Shards. 

As I said in my earlier post I just don't think that or Discord, fit at all. They just describe the interrelationship between the two Shards in Sazed. 

Considering how malleable I believe that the intents are to interpretation by the Vessel (and this is not a conscious thing. Not just a choice of what they want) I think the reason we were shown a dual Shard merger as the first to change hands is because it hides what the Shards themselves have become by Sazed's interpretations of Preservation and Ruin. 

He isn't going to change them, no. But Harmony or Discord aren't describing that in the first place. 

[Karger]

12 minutes ago, Calderis said:

As I said in my earlier post I just don't think that or Discord, fit at all. They just describe the interrelationship between the two Shards in Sazed. 

Sure.

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 10/20/2019 at 4:58 AM, Calderis said:

Personally, I think his inexperience is why the southern scadrians suffered so much. He healed everything physical for those in the north, but there was nothing wrong with the Southerners genetically. Rashek used them as a failsafe in case his genetic modifications in TFE went horribly wrong. I think their issue was a Spiritual one, and Sazed missed it until it was to late and the intents started to limit him. (would be much easier to tell if we had any idea how long the window is that they can just act freely like he did with reshaping the world, or Vin with her open attacks on Ruin)

 

My older daughter can freeze to death in weather I wouldn’t wear a sweater in. I don’t think we need to go crazy for an explanation when this is a real life phenomena.

[Koloss17]

Wow! That’s extremely interesting! My nerd self is freaking out! 

[Calderis]

50 minutes ago, Karger said:

That might just be a difference of preference rather then one of biological need.  Humans can acclimate to different temperatures.  If your daughter went outside in the winter ever day with no additional layers she would eventually build up a tolerance and be able to tolerate the cold more easily.

Go to the other thread and read what she had to say. It's not simple preference. 

[Karger]

16 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Go to the other thread and read what she had to say. It's not simple preference. 

Oh sorry wow.  I live in a region with wide temperature fluctuations and plenty of visitors he can't seem to grasp that they can adapt.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Karger

[Kingsdaughter613]

12 hours ago, Karger said:

Oh sorry wow.  I live in a region with wide temperature fluctuations and plenty of visitors he can't seem to grasp that they can adapt.

My daughter has brain damage and can’t properly regulate her temperature. Her average temperature is about 97.5 degrees F. It regularly  drops to 96. A serious fever is over 100 degrees, because she so rarely reaches that point. She has an overactive cooling system and an under active heating system. Her room needs to be about 80 degrees all the time.

She actually has gotten better; when she first got ill she had to be under a warming blanket all the time. Now we just need to take precautions. Except in summer; she’s fine and we’re boiling. (And I run into major issues, since when I’m too hot I faint. So we can’t be in the same room for extended periods.)

I WISH this was a preference. Sadly, it’s not. Hopefully she’ll continue to recover.

It’s hard to find doctors to help though; most people with this issue are elderly or have it as a side effect of certain illnesses (like cancer.) There really aren’t doctors who specialize in this issue, especially with young children. It’s not a very common thing, so don’t feel bad for misunderstanding.

She was also brain dead for three days, and then started having brain activity again, which generally doesn’t happen either. So she’s not exactly a normal situation. 

[Karger]

11 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I WISH this was a preference. Sadly, it’s not. Hopefully she’ll continue to recover.

I hope so too.