Undiscovered surges ?

[Friendshipspren]

So the number ten is sacred on roshar. But is 10 really a truly significant number or just a cultural lie ?

Like on Scadrial it was assumed there were only 10 metals . But in reality it was 16 metals . Leras made it a constant which can be recognized anywhere.Tlr suppressed knowledge of the other metals and they didn't have the technology to refine then either 

Similarly could it be that there are other surges , 6 of them undiscovered cause technology and scientific progress hasn't really increased. 

I guess electricity could be considered a surge. 

So could strong or weak nuclear forces.

Now the surges aren't strictly limited to natural forces , concepts like transformation and Transportation are alive and can be bound as well. 

So there might be undiscovered concepts like maybe , quantum mechanics or qbits. The surge of Information. Perhaps relative time could also be a surge similar to allomantic cadmium and bendalloy. 

But then again maybe I'm overthinking. Maybe 16 was leras's obsession and it's significance is endemic to the scadrian system ?

So whatchu think ?

Any WoBs ?

Edited October 18, 2019 by PrinceGenocide
Some polishing

[Quantus]

Ten is actually cosmere significant to the Rosharan planetary system specifically, which includes Roshar, Ashyn, and Braize (and other gas giants).  The whole system is 10-centric, with Braize being uniquely nine-centric for reasons unknown (WOB has RAFO'd it so far).

He's said the number of Surges and/or magic systems really more depends on how you want to count them.  So far there are Ten Radiant Surges, but the different Orders that share a surge dont always manifest them the same ways.  Voidbinding seems to offer alternate versions of a Surge (so far we've only seen Renarin's Future-sight Lightweaving).  And then there are fabrials, where each can use a single Surge but with the capability to customize and modify them via technological configuration.  There is a very strong argument by @Calderis that the Fused were built to be Living Fabrials to access their surges, with the noticeable differences from Radiant surges being due to using Voidlight rather than Stormlight as their fuel.  Cant find the link at the moment, sorry, but it's worth the read.  

 

Quote

 

Herald (paraphrased)

Is there more significance to the 10 other planets around the Rosharan star system and them being gaseous? We know that Roshar's moons have unnatural orbits; so there seems to be some astronomical manipulation in the system.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes there is significance of 16 in cosmere and 10 in Rosharan system.

Herald (paraphrased)

The outer 10 gas giants in the Rosharan system suggest a tie to the number 10 that predates the arrival of the current Shards. Is the prominent numerology we see around the cosmere an inherent property of the planets, rather than the Shards who invest them?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Big RAFO.

Herald (paraphrased)

Would Ashyn/Braize share the 10-centric numerology of Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes 10-centric is for the entire Rosharan planetary system...wait Braize is 9-centric.

Arcanum Unbounded San Francisco signing (Nov. 30, 2016)

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

Questioner

How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archive, and how many of them haven't been seen?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them.  I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one.  And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing.

Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016)

 

 

 

 

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BenFoley

You have stated in your blog that Mistborn had three magic systems (Allomancy, Feruchemy and Hemalurgy) and also that The Way of Kings will have upwards of 20. For comparison, how many magic systems would you say the Wheel of Time series has? Two (One Power and the True Power)? How do you classify other abilities (not necessarily related to the One Power or True Power) such as Dreamwalking, viewing the Pattern, Wolfbrother-hoodness, and changing 'luck' or chance? Would you classify these abilities as a magic system in and of themselves? Has your chance to see the background material Robert Jordan left changed how you view these abilities?

Brandon Sanderson

This kind of gets sticky, as it's all up to semantics. Really, you could say that Mistborn had a different magic system for each type of Misting. But at the same time, you could argue that something like X-Men—with huge numbers of powers—all falls under the same blanked 'magic system.' And take Hemalurgy in Mistborn 3—is it a new magic system, or just a reinterpretation of Allomancy and Feruchemy?

So what do I mean by twenty or thirty magic systems in Kings? Hard to say, as I don't want to give spoilers. I have groupings of abilities that have to deal with a certain theme. Transformation, Travel, Pressure and Gravity, that sort of thing. By one way of counting, there are thirty of these—though by another way of grouping them together, there are closer to ten.

Anyway, I'd say that the Wheel of Time has a fair number of Magic systems. The biggest one would be the One Power/True Power, which is more of a blanket "Large" magic system kind of like Allomancy being a blanket for sixteen powers—only the WoT magic system is far larger. I'd count what Perrin/Egwene do in Tel'aran'rhiod as a different magic system. What Mat does as something else, the Talents one can have with the Power something else. Though I'd group all of the Foretelling/Viewing powers into one.

Sounds like a topic for a paper, actually. Any of you academics out there feel like writing one?

Let's just say that The Wheel of Time has a smaller number of larger magic systems, and I tend to use a larger number of smaller magic systems. Confusing enough?

Barnes and Noble Book Club Q&A (July 8, 2009)

 

   

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, Quantus said:

There is a very strong argument by @Calderis that the Fused were built to be Living Fabrials to access their surges, with the noticeable differences from Radiant surges being due to using Voidlight rather than Stormlight as their fuel

My theories have been summoned! 

 

[+asmodeus]

There are WoBs, actually.

I can give you my understanding of it, and then the relevant WoBs.

In our Universe, we have studied the laws of physics and have been able to come up with 4 fundamental laws by which, or in terms of which, most interactions can be explained. In the Cosmere however, there's additional realms and rulesets to deal with. So Brandon designed 10 fundamental laws in that Universe, on the basis of which all interactions in that Universe can be explained. Now of all the possible ways in which these forces could be manipulated, access to the Surges grants you one subset - the manipulations they allow you are how Honor and Cultivation see those forces.

So, for example, Time, or the fundamental passage of time, becomes Progression - because that is how Cultivation sees Time. Enacting the effect of time and erasing it - Growth and Regrowth. Honor deals with bonds, and so Gravitation allows you to "bind" Gravity in a certain direction, and with practice you can create more such "bonds". So for all intents and purposes, the Surges reflect, or are, the fundamental forces in that universe already. You do not need more, and Brandon has said he explicitly came up with 10 such fundamental forces for the Cosmere. Entropy becomes Division, Realmic Travel (the ability to go between realms) becomes Transportation, Realmatic Change (the ability to affect change because of the interactions between realms, and the rules of what those realms are) becomes Transformation, etc.

I am working on a master theory for this, where I intend to map out more such interactions on Roshar. Including - with some success - the effects of the Unmade.

Now for the WoBs. I'm discounting those WoBs already pasted above, the ones that say there are ~30 systems.

From this:

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The magic system of Roshar is based on the idea of the fundamental forces. I love the idea of the fundamental forces. This idea that there are certain interactions between parts of matter and energy that transcend everything else and rule how our entire world works was fascinating. So I wanted to come up with this idea of ten fundamental forces that worked with the magic system of the cosmere. Because there are extra forces, because there's weird stuff in the cosmere. Some of them are one-to-one. Gravitation is just one of the fundamental forces. And the strong and weak forces, I played with and came up with some things for that too, so you'll see that. But on the other hand, we've got things like transcending between the Physical Realm and the Cognitive Realm, which is a very cosmere-type thing. So, I built ten fundamental forces.

From this one, in response to whether the fundamental forces are Cosmere-wide:

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Yes, to an extent. You would consider, like - it's kind of weird because I based them on the idea of the fundamental forces, but this is kind of like a human construction. You could say that physics is pure and natural, but we're still putting things in boxes. And the scientists on Roshar would, for instance, consider being able to travel between the Cognitive and Physical Realms as a force, the thing that pulls people back and forth between that, as a fundamental force. I don't know if it would fit our definition of a fundamental force.

From here, relevant highlights:

Quote

So all the magic on Roshar, all the surgebinding on Roshar, is going to have its roots in Honor and Cultivation. Um... There is some Odium influence too, but that’s mostly Voidbinding, which is the map in the back of the first book.

...

But, but even the powers, it’s, it’s really this sort of thing. What’s going in Stormlight is that people are accessing fundamental forces of creation and laws of the universe. They’re accessing them through the filter of Cultivation and Honor. So, that’s not to say, on another world you couldn’t have someone influence gravity. Honor doesn’t belong to gravity. But bonds, and how to deal with bonds, and things like this, is an Honor thing. So the way Honor accesses gravity is, you make a bond between yourself and either a thing or a direction or things like that and you go. So it’s filtered through Honor’s visual, and some of the magics lean more Honor and some them lean more Cultivation, as you can obviously see, in the way that they take place.

Hope this helps answer your question!

Edited October 18, 2019 by asmodeus

[Friendshipspren]

@asmodeus. Yep it does a bit. Welcome to the shard btw

[+Oltux72]

On 18/10/2019 at 3:17 PM, Quantus said:

And then there are fabrials, where each can use a single Surge but with the capability to customize and modify them via technological configuration.

Pain? Dryness? Warning? Heat?

[Calderis]

11 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Pain? Dryness? Warning? Heat?

Just because we don't understand how something maps to a surge yet doesn't mean that it isn't one. 

Who'd have guessed Adhesion could be used for language translation for example? 

[Honorless]

@PrinceGenocide, you're gonna like these WoBs:

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Fantasy Faction

Could any type of spren bond with a person (even if the results wouldn't be a Knight Radiant)? Or only the ones associated with a branch of the Knights?

Brandon Sanderson

Ooh, that's an excellent question. This is something theoretically possible for a lesser spren to achieve.

Fantasy Faction interview (April 24, 2014)

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Macen

You've pretty much implied yes [to bonding more than one spren].

Brandon Sanderson

I did not say yes.

Questioner

You implied.  <What about> more than one type of spren?  Different types of spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's see what happens.  This is not impossible.  

Footnote: Brandon has also stated humans can theoretically bond multiple spren (http://wob.coppermind.net/events/156/#e2841).
Words of Radiance Omaha signing (March 13, 2014)

 

[Friendshipspren]

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

@PrinceGenocide, you're gonna like these WoBs:

 

So if non standard Spren can be bonded , u can theoretically access non standard surges as well ? Noice

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, PrinceGenocide said:

So if non standard Spren can be bonded , u can theoretically access non standard surges as well ? Noice

Not sure there are "non-standard Surges" personally. 

Pretty sure the concept of the Surges as their "fundamental forces" means that everything is going to map to one of the Surges, even if it's not intuitive.

[Quantus]

On 11/9/2019 at 3:08 AM, Calderis said:

Not sure there are "non-standard Surges" personally. 

Pretty sure the concept of the Surges as their "fundamental forces" means that everything is going to map to one of the Surges, even if it's not intuitive.

That's my understanding as well, they are more like constellations in the sky: they have shape and definition, but in reality they are just (arbitrary) divisions of the whole with no actual gaps, so all stars by definition fall into one of them.  Im not saying the 10 surges are themselves arbitrary since they are a natural division rather than a cultural one.  

[Friendshipspren]

13 hours ago, Quantus said:

That's my understanding as well, they are more like constellations in the sky: they have shape and definition, but in reality they are just (arbitrary) divisions of the whole with no actual gaps, so all stars by definition fall into one of them.  Im not saying the 10 surges are themselves arbitrary since they are a natural division rather than a cultural one.  

But what about transformation and Transportation. They aren't natural concepts. They are abstract ideas.

Division too is a hybrid between fact and concept

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, PrinceGenocide said:

But what about transformation and Transportation. They aren't natural concepts. They are abstract ideas.

Division too is a hybrid between fact and concept

Which isn't important. The Surges are the Rosharan fundamental forces. 

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Argent

My understanding of the... spren is that they grant powers based on what they understand to be fundamental? Ish?

Brandon Sanderson

Ish. I wouldn't 100% go with that. I would say these are the fundamental forces-- They aren't as scientific as our fundamental forces, but I would say it's more than just what the spren view and what the humans view in that case. But they are more philosophical than scientific, in cases.

Argent

Other cognitive beings, could they-- A spren on Earth. Would it grant electromagnetism surge, for example?

Brandon Sanderson

That, I would say yes.

Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018)

Which is why so much can fit. Because it doesn't have to be a scientific force that is structured down to the quantum level beyond rational human understanding. They are Philosophical forces that are the magical versions of fundamental forces. 

Everything maps to them, and it may not be in ways that immediately make sense. Transportation is the surge of "motion and realmic transition." the "motion" aspect of that is why I think it's the surge in Spanreeds and reversers.

Division is the surge of "destruction and decay" its almost literally the surge of Ruin. 

These aren't simple and straightforward scientific forces. At all. 

Edited November 16, 2019 by Calderis

[Dancer]

47 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

But what about transformation and Transportation. They aren't natural concepts. They are abstract ideas.

Division too is a hybrid between fact and concept

as @Calderis said, these are not simple and straight forward scientific forces. Transformation and Transportation are the in-world words used to describe the real fundamental forces of Realmic travel and the conversion from matter to energy to Investiture. These are not forces that apply to the real world but are specific to the Cosmere.  

[KandraAllomancer]

15 hours ago, Calderis said:

Which isn't important. The Surges are the Rosharan fundamental forces. 

"Rosharan fundamental forces" is an oxymoron, really. Fundamental forces are, by definition, fundamental - they should be the same for all Cosmere. I would consider basic laws of physics (relativity, quantum mechanics, electromagnetism etc.) and Brandon's additions (Investiture, Connections, Identity etc.) to be truly fundamental. I think Surges are, like spren, a natural outgrowth of human's perception of natural forces:

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Blightsong

Were the ideals of the Knights Radiant consciously chosen, or did they happen naturally?

Brandon Sanderson

*apprehension*. This is one of those vague ones in that yes and no. They are a natural outgrowth of the spren, but the spren are a natural outgrowth of human's perception of natural forces, but the spren are sentient, so I would say it's a little more by instinct than not. For example two Knights Radiant in the same Order might speak the words differently, but the concept is the same. You will see this happen in a future book, where a Windrunner will speak the oaths. It's a slightly different take on the same concept. Some are moreso, like Shallan's oaths are very individualized truths, so.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

There are very fundamental processes, like nuclear fission, that are not included in ten Surges:

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Snipexe

Could you create a nuclear bomb using the Surge of Division?

Brandon Sanderson

Not Division, but there are cosmere powers that are built around splitting atoms.

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)

Not all Spiritual properties are covered: Connection is, but Fortune (unless you count Voidbinding) and Identity don't seems to be.

One Surge can include very different processes: Adhesion, for example, has both physical and spiritual ones.

Also, spanreed are infused rubies which are split in half after the spren was already captured. Their behavior seems to be based on real life quantum entanglement, so I wouldn't count their actions as Surges, but the consequences of quasi-quantum nature of spren themselves.

For the record, I still think that in 99% of cases, fabrials can be explained in Surge terms. But it doesn't mean that Surges are actually fundamental - I think they come down to the mix of human perception and Adonalsium's design (10-centric, just as most of the Rosharan system). These perceptions were probably set in stone the moment Cultivation and Honor Invested on Roshar, so they're now can be considered more objective than just a subjective, cultural thing. Still, it makes me wonder - what if Rosharans discover nuclear force? It won't affect Surgebinding, but can human perception create new spren (nuclearspren?) that can be used in modern fabrials? I would guess not, at least without any additional splintering of Cultivation, but I'm not 100% sure

 

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

"Rosharan fundamental forces" is an oxymoron, really. Fundamental forces are, by definition, fundamental - they should be the same for all Cosmere. I would consider basic laws of physics (relativity, quantum mechanics, electromagnetism etc.) and Brandon's additions (Investiture, Connections, Identity etc.) to be truly fundamental. I think Surges are, like spren, a natural outgrowth of human's perception of natural forces:

And per the WoB I already posted, Brandon says that that is not true. 

"I would say these are the fundamental forces- they just aren't as scientific as ours" 

9 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

Not all Spiritual properties are covered: Connection is, but Fortune (unless you count Voidbinding) and Identity don't seems to be.

One Surge can include very different processes: Adhesion, for example, has both physical and spiritual ones.

Yes, which is why the "surges" are philosophical concepts/magical forces. 

I think they do include everything. I don't think the altered surge glyphs on the Voidbinding chart are there for no reason. 

11 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

Also, spanreed are infused rubies which are split in half after the spren was already captured. Their behavior seems to be based on real life quantum entanglement, so I wouldn't count their actions as Surges, but the consequences of quasi-quantum nature of spren themselves.

And for what reason does that need to be separate from the surge of motion? 

Teleportation as it exists in the Cosmere involves transmitting matter via the Spiritual Realm. Why could the two parts of a single entity not transfer motion in the same way? We've been told that Rosharans already have an ansible in Spanreeds, so it's already confirmed FTL information transition. 

13 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

For the record, I still think that in 99% of cases, fabrials can be explained in Surge terms. But it doesn't mean that Surges are actually fundamental - I think they come down to the mix of human perception and Adonalsium's design (10-centric, just as most of the Rosharan system). These perceptions were probably set in stone the moment Cultivation and Honor Invested on Roshar, so they're now can be considered more objective than just a subjective, cultural thing. Still, it makes me wonder - what if Rosharans discover nuclear force? It won't affect Surgebinding, but can human perception create new spren (nuclearspren?) that can be used in modern fabrials? I would guess not, at least without any additional splintering of Cultivation, but I'm not 100% sure

This should be able to happen, and should not require Cultivation "Splintering." despite the similar terminology, the existence of Splinters and the Splintering of a shard are very different things. 

Quote

Little Wilson

You mentioned that half(-ish) Shards are whole at-- during Shadows of Self. Is that counting Splinters?

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, one more time.

Little Wilson

You mentioned that half-- like I think it was at the Bands of Mourning release party-- you said that "half-ish Shards are whole" during Shadows of Self.

Brandon Sanderson

"Half-ish Shards are whole?"

Little Wilson

Yeah, you didn't want to do the math, because it was-- *interrupted*

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, I get it. You're saying-- Okay, so I'm sorry. I'm trying to think of Shards that are half-powered. That's not what you're saying. Half of the existing Shards. 

Little Wilson

Yes, yes.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, got it. Yeah.

Little Wilson

And does that-- is that counting Splinters? Splintered Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Um, no. I mean, a-- Splintered is one of the ways that they are not considered whole.

Zas678

Like completely Splintered as in Dominion and Devotion.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. That's what-- That's the opposite of whole.

Zas678

But having a Splinter, like Endowment...

Little Wilson

Because I-- I was kind of going with "Shattered" <and> "Splintered". So Shattered would be kind of what I was going with Devotion and Dominion. 

Brandon Sanderson

Okay.

Little Wilson

And then Splintered would be more like... You mentioned that Honor kind of Splintered himself off to create the spren before--

Isaac Stewart

Oh, and that's mentioned isn't it?

Brandon Sanderson

Right, but you've got to keep in mind that-- um... So in Scadrial, Ruin and Preservation did the same thing. Their bodies are part of the world. They-- if their exist-- like, the things on the Spiritual Realm don't matter where they are in relation to each other and things like this. All those <piece> spren are still Honor, when he was alive. Does that make sense? Like, yes those are little Splinters of Honor, but they are still Honor. It's not like he's diminished, because his whole essence is the world, right? There is no diminishing that. And so that thing is we're talking about the fracturing of the mind and the killing of the Shard. That's the distinction between whole and not whole as I was making it for you there.

Calamity release party (Feb. 16, 2016)

New types of spren can absolutely develop later. 

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Questioner 1

Is there conspiracyspren? We have kind of a family joke about that one.

Brandon Sanderson

So, conspiracyspren... Let's just say this. I have purposefully not made spren of certain things that I think would undermine the very purpose of the spren. If that makes sense?

Questioner 2

My question was going to be: What emotion would you never write a spren for?

Brandon Sanderson

Well there are ones that-- I would go with that. Things that undermine the very nature.-- But I wouldn't say never to anything. In the cosmere, particularly on Roshar, if people start to personify something, there's a chance it would become a spren, and that could be anything. The current vogue question to ask me is "will there be memespren..." And my response is always, "If people personify something, then there's a chance that a spren will develop out of it."

Skyward Denver signing (Nov. 15, 2018)

And Radiation is something that is able to be manipulated via Illumination. 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

[Discussion of Lightweavers manipulating other forms of electromagnetic radiation]

But the ultimate form (That Brandon said would be too much to be practical both in needed stormlight and application) would be the control of Gamma Radiation. If this could be harnessed, Lightweavers could literally become mini nukes, or death guns. The biggest downside to making Gamma radiation would be the damage the lightweaver would most likely suffer. So gamma radiation is impractical but its a fun thought experiment. 

The best part of this whole speculation was how excited Brandon was about my train of thought. I don't know if anyone had brought up this train of thought before. But he was happy to remind me that things will get pretty interesting when Lightweavers discover lasers and start using them in combat.

Miscellaneous 2016 (July 3, 2016)

So Fabrial nukes could absolutely be possible some day. 

[KandraAllomancer]

9 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And Radiation is something that is able to be manipulated via Illumination. 

(...)

So Fabrial nukes could absolutely be possible some day. 

The problem is, nuclear fission is not just radiation. Some of the mass of uranium/plutonium is transformed into energy (E=mc^2) that is released as radiation. So it's mass -> energy. This could be approximated by Transformation and Illumination, but (A) Transformation conserves mass and (B) Illumination is powered by Stormlight. I don't see a way to convert mass to energy via Surges. Even Lift can't eat plutonium, so you can't go mass -> Stormlight -> energy

15 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I think they do include everything. I don't think the altered surge glyphs on the Voidbinding chart are there for no reason. 

If we assume we need Odium to cover all fundamental mechanisms of Cosmere, why just him? Maybe every Shard would add something and we need all 16?

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

The problem is, nuclear fission is not just radiation. Some of the mass of uranium/plutonium is transformed into energy (E=mc^2) that is released as radiation. So it's mass -> energy. This could be approximated by Transformation and Illumination, but (A) Transformation conserves mass and (B) Illumination is powered by Stormlight. I don't see a way to convert mass to energy via Surges. Even Lift can't eat plutonium, so you can't go mass -> Stormlight -> energy

We've already seen things perfectly capable of doing what you're talking about elsewhere in the Cosmere with the way Harmonium functions, so I definitely wouldn't rule it out. 

5 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

If we assume we need Odium to cover all fundamental mechanisms of Cosmere, why just him? Maybe every Shard would add something and we need all 16?

Maybe. That still doesn't change the point that the Surges themselves are fundamental forces. The magics we know may not be able to cover everything, but that does not mean the Surges don't. 

[KandraAllomancer]

18 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Maybe. That still doesn't change the point that the Surges themselves are fundamental forces. The magics we know may not be able to cover everything, but that does not mean the Surges don't. 

OK, I can agree with that. We know that Roshar was specifically designed by Adonalsium for a purpose. That purpose could be to give access to an universal magic system, capable of doing almost anything. If Unity Shard is formed there, their magic would be extremely powerful and grow with every added Shard. Eventually you get quasi-Adonalsium that can pretty much recapitulate original Yolen magic (including manipulation of sub-atomic particles and, obviously, Lightweaving)

Edited November 16, 2019 by KandraAllomancer

[Quantus]

When talking about how "Fundamental" a force/surge is in the cosmere, I think it's important to remember that reality is going to be fundamentally different on different planets, to some extent. "Reality" in the Cosmere is more or less  described as The Physical Realm being expressed/emitted by the Spiritual Realm through the filter of the Cognitive Realm. This is true for everything that exists in all three realms, from people to Planets.  And each planet has it's own region of the Cognitive Realm, with it's own expressions and rules, such as the Rosharan land inversion vs Scadrian Mists, and who knows what Nalthis looks like.  These regions connect, but they do appear and function differently, and if that CR region is the lens by which the local reality itself is being created and maintained, those differences are going to have to cause similar variance in the reality they are translating.  And it would logically make sense that those differences are going to shine though more dramatically int he instance of how Investiture is direct accessed and manipulated than it might for more basic and standardized things like what Carbon looks like.  

That's not to say there arent always going to be some common ground, though I do see those most often occurring around Spiritual Realm effects (Spriritweb stuff, concepts of Connection and Identity, etc).  However, even with the background mechanisms are the same, the access and expressions will be different; for example, in Scadrian Feruchemy it takes separate metals to manipulate natural age (atium) vs spiriweb healing (gold) but they are the same Surge on Roshar (Progression).