How was Ruin able to talk to tlr ?

[Friendshipspren]

Ok so we know Ruin was able to talk to rashek , eventually driving him insane.

But how exactly ?

An obvious explaination would be hemalurgy. But I doubt tlr was that stupid. He knew exactly what hemalurgy could lead to. 

So could it be he was slightly insane . I mean when he first ascended he did a lot of mistakes resulting in probably millions of death. Not to mention he had to turn his entire feruchemist brethren including his friends and family into mush. 

Then I guess he had a rough couple of centuries. What with all the rebellions and the unsuccessful attempts at his life and the successful ones at his lovers and children. ( I heard he had atleast one kid named Lutha, after whom luthadel was named )

I guess it would drive anyone bonkers.

But my favourite theory is that it was the atium bracers . Not only did he burn atium but also had the bracers piercing his skin and while they weren't hemalurgically charged , they were Ruin's physical essence. So I guess him having to rely on atium compounding 24*7 meant he had a direct connection to Ruin all the time ?

Or could it be that ruin hated him and concentrated his efforts on him enough to speak him even without any holes in his spiritweb ?

Or is it a combination of all these factors , except hemalurgy , that's just stupid. 

Then there's the fact that rashek ascended and unlike Vin he allowed the power of preservation to channel through him. That should have made him atleast a bit immune to ruin , right ?

Do we have any WoBs on this ?

Edited October 18, 2019 by PrinceGenocide
Some polishing

[Quantus]

As I understand it Brandon has made slightly conflicting statements about whether the Lord Ruler was actually spiked or not, so I dont think we can say for sure.  We know that at least some of the things that people thought were spikes were in fact metalminds that he hid in himself to prevent anyone from Pushing/Pulling them, and from realizing he was using Feruchemy. 

Aside from that, I'd lean toward the idea that he would have almost inevitably gone at least a tad crazy over the centuries, on top of the possibility that having his Spiritweb "stretched" by becoming a Sliver (expanded and deflated) might have opened him up to Ruin in a similar fashion.  

 

 

Quote

 

Questioner

Why in the world would the Lord Ruler spike himself?

Questioner

No.

Brandon Sanderson

...Because he needed to give himself the powers that he didn't have. He could have done it like-- gained the knowledge but the power was gone so fast he actually needed to-- Well no no no, the spikes, the spikes, the spikes. So, it doesn't matter if he was spiked because he was hiding the metals inside himself so people couldn't Push or Pull on them. That's the real reason he was doing that. Does that make sense?

Brandon Sanderson

Metal that's inside of him--

Questioner

Ruin influenced him, what did the spiking do?

Brandon Sanderson

Well the metals that were stuck through him were so people couldn’t Push or Pull on them. If they were outside his body people would know he was a Feruchemist. Which is the very thing he was-- so he stuck the metals inside of himself to hide them.

Questioner

And he did that as Hemalurgic spikes?

Brandon Sanderson

I'd have to go back and look because-- Lord Ruler is he spiked or has he just got--

Isaac Stewart

I thought he was... spiked but I can't remem--

Brandon Sanderson

You're asking something that I wrote 12 years ago.

Isaac Stewart

Peter, was the Lord Ruler spiked?

Brandon Sanderson

Lord Ruler was spiked, right?  Or is it just--

Peter Ahlstrom

I don't think so.

Brandon Sanderson

--piereced with metalminds, right? They're not actual spikes, just metalminds.

And I want to ask the Sharders on there [the recorder] about that Lord Ruler question, because I didn’t think he was spiked but--

Isaac Stewart

I think I recall him having the bands with spikes in them?

Footnote: Brandon has previously stated that the Lord Ruler did in fact have Hemalurgic spikes.
Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

 

 

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

As I understand it Brandon has made slightly conflicting statements about whether the Lord Ruler was actually spiked or not, so I dont think we can say for sure.  ...

Aside from that, I'd lean toward the idea that he would have almost inevitably gone at least a tad crazy over the centuries, on top of the possibility that having his Spiritweb "stretched" by becoming a Sliver (expanded and deflated) might have opened him up to Ruin in a similar fashion.  

This is how I view it: he behind-the-scenes retconned the personal use of hemalurgy by TLR at some point, similar to him retconning his becoming Fullborn via lerasium bead into a direct Spiritweb upgrade from his temporary Ascension. The latter now explains why he'd be even stronger in Allomancy than Elend, instead of resorting to hemalurgy (who would he have spiked at the beginning, anyway, to steal attributes from?). I think all the WoB comments about how Rashek "accomplished his most dramatic effects with hemalurgy" are older ones, since superseded.

Since he personally wrote on the Fadrex City cache plaque that he has heard Ruin's whispers in his head non-stop for centuries, the other conclusion is that being a Sliver, having once Ascended, has stretched him enough to two-way communicate with Ruin just as Preservation could do at any time.

[Friendshipspren]

38 minutes ago, robardin said:

This is how I view it: he behind-the-scenes retconned the personal use of hemalurgy by TLR at some point, similar to him retconning his becoming Fullborn via lerasium bead into a direct Spiritweb upgrade from his temporary Ascension. The latter now explains why he'd be even stronger in Allomancy than Elend, instead of resorting to hemalurgy (who would he have spiked at the beginning, anyway, to steal attributes from?). I think all the WoB comments about how Rashek "accomplished his most dramatic effects with hemalurgy" are older ones, since superseded.

Since he personally wrote on the Fadrex City cache plaque that he has heard Ruin's whispers in his head non-stop for centuries, the other conclusion is that being a Sliver, having once Ascended, has stretched him enough to two-way communicate with Ruin just as Preservation could do at any time.

Wait what ??? He was stronger than elend. I thought he was only as strong as spook or maybe equal to him. I thought he basically compounded weight and what not to make himself look stronger. I didn't know that. How does that work ? Like how can u make urself stronger than a Lerasium Mistborn ? And why did harmony make spook a considerably weaker mistborn then ?

Edited October 18, 2019 by PrinceGenocide
A little polishing

[Fezzik]

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/263-chris-king-interview/#e9889

5 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Like how can u make urself stronger than a Lerasium Mistborn ?

 

[+robardin]

18 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Wait what ??? He was stronger than elend. I thought he was only as strong as spook or maybe equal to him. I thought he basically compounded weight and what not to make himself look stronger. I didn't know that. How does that work ? Like how can u make urself stronger than a Lerasium Mistborn ? And why did harmony make spook a considerably weaker mistborn then ?

Yes, TLR was stronger even than Elend, at least as much stronger than Elend than Elend was stronger than Vin, which is much stronger.

Along with reflecting on how much stronger Elend's steelpushes were than hers (weight aside), Vin also thinks about how many more koloss Elend could soothe at a time than she could - and how even Elend couldn't compare to the massive Soothing of tens of thousands of people over an entire square of people that TLR routinely exhibited during executions. And of course, how TLR could push on the metals in her stomach in the throne room (which Elend apparently can't do).

Think about it. Rashek could never have been weaker than a lerasium Mistborn, he'd be at least that strong just from ingesting a bead of it, which he set a few aside for later. The conclusion is that either he ate one to be that strong, or did something else (instead of, or in addition to, ingesting one) to be even stronger. Rashek would not have created Mistborn allies who were stronger than he was, compounding or no.

Edited October 18, 2019 by robardin

[StanLemon]

Additionally he had a thousand years to hone his abilities becoming a savant in every single metal.

[Friendshipspren]

@robardin, @John203 what about nicrosil compounding. Ok first of all maybe during his Ascension he created a small secret stockpile of it .Hell he was able to move planets , that wouldn't be all that incredible in comparison.

Now correct me if I'm wrong but u store investiture in nicrosil right . So like could u burn brass , then store the soothing effect in nicrosil instead of directing it outside and then when required u burn the nicrosil mind and boom u have atleast 10X  the original soothing effect. He didn't usually have too much reason to come out and show it. He only had to do be in a crowd like 5 times a yr Maybe. So he could quite possibly be using nicrosil compounding  to enhance his allomancy. 

Atleast that's how I thought nicrosil compounding worked . 

As to why he didn't tell about these metals on the steel plates. No idea. Maybe he thought if he were dead , he would already run out of them . 

 

[+robardin]

6 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Additionally he had a thousand years to hone his abilities becoming a savant in every single metal.

Yes, he could compound in every metal. On TOP of being the most powerful Allomancer, in raw strength.

As has been mentioned repeatedly, the only reason he lost to Vin and Marsh in the throne room is because he was egotistical enough to want to monologue, as well as supremely overconfident. And with good reason: only someone who could draw on a Shardic level of power could challenge him (Vin pulling in the mists).

5 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

@robardin, @John203 what about nicrosil compounding. Ok first of all maybe during his Ascension he created a small secret stockpile of it .Hell he was able to move planets , that wouldn't be all that incredible in comparison.

Now correct me if I'm wrong but u store investiture in nicrosil right . So like could u burn brass , then store the soothing effect in nicrosil instead of directing it outside and then when required u burn the nicrosil mind and boom u have atleast 10X  the original soothing effect. He didn't usually have too much reason to come out and show it. He only had to do be in a crowd like 5 times a yr Maybe. So he could quite possibly be using nicrosil compounding  to enhance his allomancy. 

Atleast that's how I thought nicrosil compounding worked . 

As to why he didn't tell about these metals on the steel plates. No idea. Maybe he thought if he were dead , he would already run out of them . 

Occam's Razor: you just don't have to resort to nicrosil compounding to explain his massive power in Allomancy; he had access to an even more direct and deeper connection to Preservation than a lerasium bead while Ascended.

Quote

Chris King

Did the Lord Ruler use lerasium to gain his super Allomantic abilities or did he grant that to himself with the Well's power? If he used the bead, does he count as one of the nine original Allomancers that Sazed mentions?

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. He did not use the bead. He-- In all of this he granted himself basically, he rebuilt himself to be extremely powerful and he did not use one of the beads.

Chris King interview (Sept. 24, 2013)

 

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

I didn't realize there was confusion on this point. I thought the embedded metalminds were sufficient for Ruin to talk to him. 

As the centuries wore on it would also make sense that he might have added some spikes here and there thinking it was safe which was actually just Ruin's thoughts. But the origin I'd always understood to just be his embedded bracers and such. 

[Karger]

Maybe Ruin just had a thousand years to concentrate on him and they gradually became more and more connected.  It is not like Ruin had much else to do.

[Ripheus23]

TLR was so used to people referring to him without vowels that Ruin would make a sound like "ttll llrr" and Rashek would react like a cat being
"pspspspspsed."