ideals Who created the Ideals of the Knights Radiant?

[Calderis]

I mean that all of the oaths, including the first, have always existed. The Way of Kings just inspired the interpretations taught by the orders of the Knights to turn them into unified forces for a positive goal, rather than individuals with their own interpretations working at cross purposes and sowing discord. 

As I said, I think the reason that the first oath is different than the others, and universal to all orders, is because it's tied in directly to the way in which the spren mimicked the Honorblades. 

The other oaths arise from the spren. Themselves, but that one, and it's extreme flexibility is because it's modeled after something far different, and far less directed. But it's a necessity to forming the bond itself. 

[Honorless]

But it has been mentioned that the Honorblades required no oaths.

Why are the words so exact? It must have become solidified somehow

[Calderis]

10 minutes ago, Honorless said:

But it has been mentioned that the Honorblades required no oaths.

Why are the words so exact? It must have become solidified somehow

The Honorblades require no oaths for a person who picks them up and uses them, like Szeth or Moash. 

But they are the symbols of the Oathpact. You really think the Heralds swore nothing? 

[Aon Tia]

45 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I mean that all of the oaths, including the first, have always existed. The Way of Kings just inspired the interpretations taught by the orders of the Knights to turn them into unified forces for a positive goal, rather than individuals with their own interpretations working at cross purposes and sowing discord. 

As I said, I think the reason that the first oath is different than the others, and universal to all orders, is because it's tied in directly to the way in which the spren mimicked the Honorblades. 

The other oaths arise from the spren. Themselves, but that one, and it's extreme flexibility is because it's modeled after something far different, and far less directed. But it's a necessity to forming the bond itself. 

Agree to disagree....

 

16 minutes ago, Calderis said:

But they are the symbols of the Oathpact. You really think the Heralds swore nothing?

They swore to give up their lives, goto braize and forever entrap fused at braize. This is all we know from the text. The exact wording, we don't know. But i fail to see, as i have argued before on this thread, how the words of first ideal could have anything to do with Heralds.... 

Edited November 7, 2019 by The traveller

[Honorless]

16 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The Honorblades require no oaths for a person who picks them up and uses them, like Szeth or Moash. 

But they are the symbols of the Oathpact. You really think the Heralds swore nothing? 

They did swear to the Oathpact: that they stay on Braize, and while they are there, the Fused are also bound there

I don't believe they had to swear anything to get access to Surgebinding. The Honorblades were given to them for the purpose of fighting in the Desolations, that is Oath enough. The Stormfather only calls them out for breaking the Oathpact and Syl notes the Honorblades as "monstrous" because bearing them does not require one to swear any Ideals. They got the Honorblades after becoming Heralds, for which they had go through Proving Day, that was all. No oaths were necessary to bear the Honorblades, their access point to Surgebinding.

Are you suggesting the Honorblades acted differently for the Heralds? We know that is not true when Brandon elaborated that the lack of Bonds is the reason why the Honorblades require more Stormlight. The fact that the Heralds did not need to refill via virtue of their direct connection to Honor was also a function of the Honorblades themselves. The Shin and Szeth, in particular, didn't use that function because they didn't know of it. Also, it was a matter of what he believed: that was why he needed 10 heartbeats to summon it.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Honorless

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, The traveller said:

They swore to give up their lives, goto braize and forever entrap them at braize. This is all we know from the text. The exact wording, we don't know. But i fail to see, as i have argued before on this thread, how the words of first ideal could have anything to do with Heralds.... 

The first oath is so ridiculously open to interpretation that it can mean nearly anything. It doesn't have to be what the Heralds swore, but with the things that we've seen so far in the book I'm pretty sure I could come up with an interpretation that fits what the Heralds swore to do on the fly. 

Life before death = We will live so that others need not die. 

Strength before weakness = we will stand strong to protect those who cannot face this threat. 

Journey before destination = we will take this journey, to achieve a goal we will never see. 

3 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Are you suggesting the Honorblades acted differently for the Heralds? We know that is not true when Brandon elaborated that the lack of Bonds is the reason why the Honorblades require more Stormlight.

Then when a Herald dies, why does the blade go with them to Braize? 

[Honorless]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

Then when a Herald dies, why does the blade go with them to Braize? 

Then how can the Heralds be separated from their blades? 

[Aon Tia]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Then when a Herald dies, why does the blade go with them to Braize? 

Does it? Do we know for a fact that they had access to honorblades on Braize?

And i am not convinced with the conjecture put forth by you with regard to Oaths taken by Honor..

Edited November 7, 2019 by The traveller

[Honorless]

2 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Does it? Do we know for a fact that they had access to honorblades on Braize?

We don't.

We don't even know how they go back to Braize in the event that they survive.

[ScavellTane]

The Oaths specificity need not be a factor at all. The fact that the Heralds share a singular Oath which then granted them powers is pretty much mirrored by the initiation of the Nahel Bond.

Edited November 7, 2019 by ScavellTane

[Aon Tia]

10 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

The fact that the Heralds share a singular Oath

we don't really know though the wording of any oath the heralds might have sworn.. 

This might have inspired the idea of a single unified first oath for radiants, but the exact wording of the first Oath and where it came from, we don't know. The closest thing we have is The ways of kings. 

 

Edited November 7, 2019 by The traveller

[Elegy]

If the oaths are striktly according to the spren's nature, then we have three different sets of oaths for Bondsmiths, since the godspren are all drastically different. The Nightwatcher's natural oaths would be completely different to the Stormfather's ones.

Also, isn't the Stormfather just a giant Honorspren (hence why Syl is his "child" etc), so shouldn't their natural oaths be all the same?

And why would an honorspren's natural oath be specified to protection, of all things? Shouldn't their oaths be "I will bind things together", since Honor is about binding things? Accordingly, the ones they meet in Shadesmar seem to care about those things more than about proctecting.

Same goes for cultivationspren. Their oaths should be about learning (like what I imagine the Truthwatcher oaths to be) instead of caring and listening, if they're essentially Cultivation, because then their natural oaths should be more directly tied to growth.

I don't know, I'm not quite convinced by the "all oaths are natural to the spren" theory.

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

Then how can the Heralds be separated from their blades? 

Because, as we've been told, the Oathpact was never as broken as they though it was. 

I for one, believe all Nale had to do to retrieve his blade from the Shin was summon it again. When Szeth speaks of its disappearance, there's no talk of it having been stolen. No talk of theft or murder. No talk of a Herald appearing to reclaim the blade. 

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He stopped at the top of the steps and looked down at his hand, where a glistening Shardblade appeared. One of the two missing Honorblades. Szeth’s people had care of eight. Once, long ago, it had been nine. Then this one had vanished.

It simply vanished. Which is odd if he had to take it from a living guardian. And Szeth speaks of flying before being Truthless.

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The others seemed to like this response, and Ki herself Lashed him into the sky. For a moment he felt the freedom of flight—reminding him of his first days, holding an Honorblade long ago. Before he’d become Truthless.
No. You were never Truthless. Remember that.

Szeth was someone important in Shin society before being made Truthless. 

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unknown

Was Vallano, Szeth's grandfather, also a Truthless? And if not, what did he do to disgrace the Shin?

Brandon Sanderson

No, Vallano was not Truthless.

Szeth was a very respected member of his society, once. There are clues to what happened in his story, but you won't hear it in full until he gets his book. (Which will include his flashbacks.)

/r/fantasy AMA 2011 (Sept. 1, 2011)

Szeth has trained with all ten Surges. 

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Szeth of the Skybreakers had, fortunately, trained with all ten Surges.

And Truthless do not normally have Honorblades.

Quote

Questioner

Are all Truthless given Honorblades when they're cast out, or is Szeth a special case?

Brandon Sanderson

Szeth is a special case.

Salt Lake City ComicCon 2017 (Sept. 21, 2017)

I think that Szeth was chosen as a guardian of an Honorblade. Trained in all ten Surges, so when a guardian passed, he would be ready to take up their blade and hold it until his death. As such, when he was made Truthless, he was required to keep it. 

1 hour ago, The traveller said:

Does it? Do we know for a fact that they had access to honorblades on Braize?

In the prelude to the series we're told that when they die, the blades vanish. 

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But no. Kalak frowned as he stepped up to the base of the spire. Seven magnificent swords stood proudly here, driven point-first into the stone ground. Each was a masterly work of art, flowing in design, inscribed with glyphs and patterns. He recognized each one. If their masters had died, the Blades would have vanished.

So whether they go to Braize or not, they aren't left in the world. 

And regardless of what the Heralds believe, walking away from their blades did not separate them from the Oathpact.

Quote

Questioner

Are all of the Heralds still alive?

Brandon Sanderson

The Oathpact has not been broken, so yes.

Calamity release party (Feb. 16, 2016)

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luke.spence (paraphrased)

How many parties were there to the original Oathpact?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. They're going to find out that it's not quite as broken as they had previously thought (meaning the Heralds).

Words of Radiance Dayton signing (March 19, 2014)

And then you have all of them feeling Jezrien's death. 

So yes. I think think that the Heralds are linked to their blades in a way that's very different than a person just picking the blade up and using it. It doesn't grant them additional powers, but the blades are the symbols of the Oathpact. A person who picks up a blade isn't a Herald. 

Edit: @Elegy that's not theory. That's what Brandon's said.

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Blightsong

Were the ideals of the Knights Radiant consciously chosen, or did they happen naturally?

Brandon Sanderson

*apprehension*. This is one of those vague ones in that yes and no. They are a natural outgrowth of the spren, but the spren are a natural outgrowth of human's perception of natural forces, but the spren are sentient, so I would say it's a little more by instinct than not. For example two Knights Radiant in the same Order might speak the words differently, but the concept is the same. You will see this happen in a future book, where a Windrunner will speak the oaths. It's a slightly different take on the same concept. Some are moreso, like Shallan's oaths are very individualized truths, so.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

For that very reason, I really really hope that the three Bondsmiths have different oaths. 

Glys corruption could also have an effect Renarin's oaths because of its changed nature. 

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Questioner

Because of Glys' corrupted nature as a spren of Sja-anat, does that mean that Renarin's swearing different Ideals than the mainstream Truthwatcher ideals?

Brandon Sanderson

Um... I'll RAFO that for now. But there will definitely be some differences.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

 

Edited November 7, 2019 by Calderis

[Elegy]

9 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Edit: @Elegy that's not theory. That's what Brandon's said.

Ah, thanks!

That's weird. It might eventually require some explaining regarding the things I mentioned though, because it doesn't make perfect sense to me ...

[Aon Tia]

48 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I for one, believe all Nale had to do to retrieve his blade from the Shin was summon it again.

I doubt this.. also, we don't know how long ago Nale's honorblade has vanished.. and we dont know what other things heralds are capable of. 

Szeth can learn all the ten surges even if nale's blade was missing..

48 minutes ago, Calderis said:

In the prelude to the series we're told that when they die, the blades vanish.

But, they may not be available to them on Braize.. We don't know..

Edited November 7, 2019 by The traveller

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, The traveller said:

doubt this.. also, we don't know how long ago Taln's honorblade has vanished.. and we dont know what other things heralds are capable of. 

Szeth can learn all the ten surges even if Taln's blade was missing..

What does Szeth have to do with Taln's blade? 

2 minutes ago, The traveller said:

But, they may not be available to them on Braize.. We don't know..

Even if they're not, they still aren't available to the world. If a person like Szeth or Moash with an Honorblade dies, they drop the blade 

[Honorless]

@Calderis, the quote you mentioned seems to indicate that the Honorblade he is holding is among the two that went missing

Quote

He stopped at the top of the steps and looked down at his hand, where a glistening Shardblade appeared. One of the two missing Honorblades. Szeth’s people had care of eight. Once, long ago, it had been nine. Then this one had vanished.

That just added to the confusion

I thought Szeth was given the Honorblade? But then again why would they give an Honorblade to him and then exile him after branding him "Truthless"? He could have simply taken it... That does make more sense

Do we know when Nale took back his Honorblade?

He did actually join his Order, rather than just grant them patronage and was said to be alone in that regard. So he may have been utilizing an actual Shardblade for a long while before getting his Honorblade back during the time period within the books.

We know the other one was definitely Taln's though, @The traveller, it only went missing after he reappeared on Roshar with it, in his broken state of mind (if that is what you were asking) 

Edited November 7, 2019 by Honorless

[Aon Tia]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

What does Szeth have to do with Taln's blade? 

I am saying that blade may have been missing a long time ago, even before szeth was ever born. So, what szeth says about it vanishing could be hearsay.. 

I think Nale is capable of stealing it back without being seen

[ScavellTane]

23 minutes ago, Elegy said:

Ah, thanks!

That's weird. It might eventually require some explaining regarding the things I mentioned though, because it doesn't make perfect sense to me ...

Herald - Divine Attribute - Surge (Honorblade)

Radiant - Oath - Spren

[Calderis]

5 minutes ago, The traveller said:

I am saying that blade may have been missing a long time ago, even before szeth was ever born. So, what szeth says about it vanishing could be hearsay.. 

I think Nale is capable of stealing it back without being seen

The Shin never had Taln's blade. It disappeared when he died, and returned at the end of tWoK. Between when we see him in tWoK and WoR, the blade was stolen, or replaced as it is not the same blade that arrives with him, that Dalinar bonds. 

As to Nale's blade, the Shin did have it, and it "vanishing" would not be a simple task, especially considering the fact that Nale holds to his order oaths and I doubt he could legally kill the blades guardian. The Shin seem to not only keep the blades bonded, but they've actually used them in the past to invade outwards.

Quote

Zykai (paraphrased)

Did the Shin use Honorblades in their invasions? If yes, did they also use Surges?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes and yes.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

So no, I don't think he could simply steal it. At least not without it being on record with the Shin as having done more than "vanished" seeing as Szeth knows what this one looks like despite its absence. 

[Aon Tia]

11 minutes ago, Calderis said:

This was had vanished.

It is very ambiguous.. I agree. So was it simply summoned or stolen.. Does seem to be the former going by the wording..

24 minutes ago, Honorless said:

We know the other one was definitely Taln's though

Sorry guys, i mistyped, i wanted to say Nale's Honorblade... I have edited the said comment..

Edited November 7, 2019 by The traveller

[Honorless]

1 hour ago, Elegy said:

If the oaths are striktly according to the spren's nature, then we have three different sets of oaths for Bondsmiths, since the godspren are all drastically different. The Nightwatcher's natural oaths would be completely different to the Stormfather's ones.

Also, isn't the Stormfather just a giant Honorspren (hence why Syl is his "child" etc), so shouldn't their natural oaths be all the same?

And why would an honorspren's natural oath be specified to protection, of all things? Shouldn't their oaths be "I will bind things together", since Honor is about binding things? Accordingly, the ones they meet in Shadesmar seem to care about those things more than about proctecting.

Same goes for cultivationspren. Their oaths should be about learning (like what I imagine the Truthwatcher oaths to be) instead of caring and listening, if they're essentially Cultivation, because then their natural oaths should be more directly tied to growth.

I don't know, I'm not quite convinced by the "all oaths are natural to the spren" theory.

We don't know much, but here's how I see it:

I don't know about the Bondsmith Oaths, on one hand: they belong to the same Order and have the same attributes and Surges. On the other hand: the Godspren are vastly different from one another. Nightwatcher, in particular is to Cultivation what Stormfather is to Honor. Then again, Dalinar's oaths exemplify both honor (bring men together) and cultivation (rise each time a better man).

The Stormfather is not a Honorspren. He was created by Adonalsium to be a part of the natural ecosystem of Roshar. He was Invested further by Honor when he arrived on Roshar though. Honor was originally responsible for creating Honorspren but he later gave that duty to the Stormfather, slowly giving him more and more power. Now onto my conjecture: this is why Windspren were called lesser cousins to Honorspren. The Honorspren were basically Windspren before this

The idea of 'Honor' also has many cultural connotations and Tanavast did interpret them as part of his Intent. Honor is about being bound by rules:

Quote

Questioner

Shards. We started with fairly obvious ones, magic wise. Trying to keep this spoiler free, so: Ruin, Preservation, this kind of thing. Then we get the weird ones. Why do we have Shards that can only exist in the mind of a sentient creature? ...Like the concept of Honor can only be done when it's carried out, essentially, by a sentient creature.

Brandon Sanderson

So when I split Adonalsium I said, "I'm going to take aspects of Adonalsium's nature." And this involves personality to me. So the Shattering of Adonalsium was primal forces attached to certain aspects of personality. And so I view every one of them this way. And when I wrote Mistborn we had Ruin and Preservation. They are the primal forces of entropy and whatever you call the opposite, staying-the-same-ism-y. Like, you've got these two contrasts, between things changing and things not changing. And then humans do have a part, there's a personality. Ruin is a charged term for something that actually is the way that life exists. And Preservation is a charged term for stasis, for staying the same. And those are the personality aspects, and the way they are viewed by people and by the entity that was Adonalsium.

So I view this for all of them. Like, Honor is the sense of being bound by rules, even when those rules, you wouldn't have to be bound by. And there's this sense that that is noble, that's the honor aspect to it, but there's also something not honorable about Honor if taken from the other direction. So a lot of them do kind of have this both-- cultural component, I would say, that is trying to represent something that is also natural. And not all of them are gonna have a 100% balance between those two things, I would say, because there's only so many fundamental laws of the universe that I can ascribe personalities to in that way. 

So I find Honor very interesting, but I find Autonomy a very interesting one for the exact same reason. What does autonomy mean? We attach a lot to it, but what is the actual, if you get rid of the charged terms, what does it mean? And this is where you end up with things like Odium claiming "I am all emotion." Rather than-- But then there's a charged term for it that is associated with this Shard. I'm not going to tell you whether he's right or not, but he has an argument. 

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

 

Surgebinding as a magic system is of Honor. Some of the Nahel Bond capable spren lean more towards Cultivation, but the system itself is of Honor.

The oaths are somewhat natural to Nahel Bonds in their general idea but seem to be more up to interpretation by both the parties: Radiant and spren. The First Ideal is more particular in its wording across all the Orders "Life Before Death, Strength Before Weakness, Journey Before Destination", but the rest can be sworn differently: as we see with Kaladin, Teft and Lopen

Edited November 7, 2019 by Honorless

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, Honorless said:

The First Ideal is more particular in its wording across all the Orders "Life Before Death, Strength Before Weakness, Journey Before Destination", but the rest can be sworn differently: as we with Kaladin, Teft and Lopen

And despite its wording being rigid, it clearly means vastly different things to different people. 

[Honorless]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And despite its wording being rigid, it clearly means vastly different things to different people. 

That was never under doubt

But we've deviated enough

Why are these words so rigid? Where were they taken from if they were the inspiration for Way of Kings, rather than Way of Kings being the inspiration for them.

To note: I'm not saying there wasn't a first oath before, just that it may have been different than this one

[Aon Tia]

14 minutes ago, Honorless said:

I'm not saying there wasn't a first oath before, just that it may have been different than this one

It may have been different for each order too.