The Traveller

Taravangian and his great plans

78 posts in this topic

King T is a plant. I fully subscribe to this theory as well. I certainly do abhor his actions every bit as much as some of the more blatantly evil peeps, and Culti's usage of him really calls into question her supposed benevolent nature, but the theory remains. He's the ultimate purloined letter, it's absolutely essential that he believes the way he believes or else Odium would not use him.

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3 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Culti's usage of him really calls into question her supposed benevolent nature

She's a Shard... That's not ever going to be all good. Cultivation, as a concept, is not kind or generous. Even when I thought the Diagram was what Taravangian thinks, it still reeked of her intent. Strengthen the plant through pruning and guidance. 

Cultivation is not nature. Cultivation is directed growth. A park is cultivated. A garden. There's a reason we call wildlands uncultivated. 

And Cultivation, above all else, is destructive. You end the plants you don't want. You kill the pests that interfere with your plans. You cull the weak plants.

Cultivation may be on the side that's aiding our heroes... And she may be using Taravangian as a pawn to directly strike at Odium as we think... But the Diagram as the plan he believes is perfectly in line with her intent.

I expect her to be a planner, and a manipulator, and absolutely ruthless. 

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1 hour ago, Calderis said:

I expect her to be a planner, and a manipulator, and absolutely ruthless. 

Yup and hope that she is effective and blindsides odium yet again. 

If you believe that truthwatchers are closer to cultivation than honor as it appears to be from the knights radiant symbol/diagram, I also wonder if Renarin bonding glys is also in some way cultivation’s doing. And he as we know might be the ultimate ace of spades in the deck

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4 hours ago, Calderis said:

She's a Shard... That's not ever going to be all good. Cultivation, as a concept, is not kind or generous. Even when I thought the Diagram was what Taravangian thinks, it still reeked of her intent. Strengthen the plant through pruning and guidance. 

Cultivation is not nature. Cultivation is directed growth. A park is cultivated. A garden. There's a reason we call wildlands uncultivated. 

And Cultivation, above all else, is destructive. You end the plants you don't want. You kill the pests that interfere with your plans. You cull the weak plants.

Cultivation may be on the side that's aiding our heroes... And she may be using Taravangian as a pawn to directly strike at Odium as we think... But the Diagram as the plan he believes is perfectly in line with her intent.

I expect her to be a planner, and a manipulator, and absolutely ruthless. 

Agreed on all points. And confirmed by a WoB I don't have access to right now. Question is, what happens once team O bites the dust? She doesn't strike me as erratic like Edgli/Endowment, she's got something in mind for her endgame. What's a world where she's the Shard that stands alone look like? I guess it's better than Odium's void but I am not certain it's going to be all roses and candy canes either. 

A bit of a tangent but of the shards we know of, which one do you think would be best for mortal inhabitants if the Shard held the world unopposed?

Edited by Bigmikey357
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I still don’t see how either cultivation or honor alone also would be bad for a world. 

Endowment seems to be doing ok too in her world. 

But best for the world I think honor if he were alone... I don’t think that he is only about oaths, there are underlying values he has of protection, justice, logic, caring, unity etc 

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31 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

A bit of a tangent but of the shards we know of, which one do you think would be best for mortal inhabitants if the Shard held the world unopposed?

Of the ones we know? I think Endowment has a seemingly stable world on her hands. 

All of the others I'd be scared of in isolation.

I love Cultivation. My single favorite Shard... But depending on how things go, I could see her become a really big and nasty problem. 

For example... If at the end of book Five Rayse were dealt with and she were to snag Odium (perhaps out of a fear that she's been stagnant for too long), that is a combination I could see as a Cosmere endgame big bad. 

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5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

 

For example... If at the end of book Five Rayse were dealt with and she were to snag Odium (perhaps out of a fear that she's been stagnant for too long), that is a combination I could see as a Cosmere endgame big bad. 

Any ideas on what you think the combination could be? Do you think passionately wanting to cultivate or grow or cultivating hatred?

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25 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Any ideas on what you think the combination could be? Do you think passionately wanting to cultivate or grow or cultivating hatred?

I don't even think the shard names we know are "accurate." Just the interpretations of the current Vessels, so I don't think predicting future shards or guessing combinations is worthwhile until we see more. 

For example I think "Honor" and "Unity" are the same Shard, just two different interpretations of a single deeper concept. 

So no I don't have a guess. 

Major Mistborn Era 1 spoilers 

Spoiler

Harmony, for example, isn't an accurate combination of Ruin and Preservation. Neither is the prophesied alternative of Discord. Those are both relation names that describe the way that the Shards balance in Sazed himself.

And I think that was intentional on Brandon's part, to conceal the deeper meaning of the Shards. 

Ruin is Entropy. It's an inherently negative force of change. Preservationis stasis... Or momentum, or the status quo. However you want to define it. 

A middle ground if balance between those two things is still negative, but Harmony doesn't seem to work that way, and he should have reinterpreted both of the Shard... In a way that his relational name completely hides from us. 

The biggest thing that I am currently waiting for in the Cosmere is for a single Shard to change hands so that we can see just how accurate or inaccurate the current belief of what the Shards are is. And if I'm right, a good chunk of what we think we know goes out the window. 

In short, I just don't think that the mixture of Cultivation and Odium leads to anything good. 

Edited by Calderis
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may be he sees himself as saviour of humankind. But the everyday taravangian as Calderis would put it, it feels like is more worried about being the saviour than doing the actual saving. His vanity is more important to him as of now. May be because he feels that he has given up so much that he deserves to be touted as ultimate saviour of Humanity on Roshar.

His actions in OB come across as being more motivated by a need to defeat Dalinar, not really because he thinks that Dalinar will lose or doom all but because he is afraid that Dalinar will succeed and Taravangian will not get to the leader of humans.

hmm... that's the exact thing that Amaram's character was suffering from. Taravangian not even considering the chance that he might be wrong, comes less from vanity and more from hopelessness, I think. Like I mentioned before, he is seeking to oppose a god. A god who killed the god he believed in.

 

Taravangian being the Nightwatcher's Bondsmith theory is very popular right now, right alongside Navani being the Sibling's Bondsmith.

I really don't want the latter to happen! I want her to remain one of the grounding characters and I want her role to genuinely be one of Rosharan scientific discovery.

As for Taravangian... who knows? He might go to the Nightwatcher again and simply ask for the boon of bonding her. I'd like to see that.

 

Cultivation + Odium could be Revenge or Vengeance, I guess. It could also be Oppression perhaps.

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He appears motivated by vanity when he is deciding what is to be done about Dalinar. Because he really does not want him to succeed...

Will he even survive the trip to the valley again... I doubt it he has grown very old very frail. 

I like the idea of navani being a sibling bondsmith purely because I want her to make scientific discoveries. 

I always thought that

ambition + odium = vengeance

so cultivation + odium could be something like imperialism, may be. Haha really want to see how a new vessel changes the shard or vice versa or a new shard changes an old shard. 

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Hey, @The traveller, let's talk Shard combos then!

I have Odium + Autonomy (+ Kelsier) = Revolution!!!

Ambition + Autonomy might be a better fit for that though

As for Cultivation + Odium I did include Oppression, which I think fits better than Imperialism. I put Vengeance there because cultivating hatred, like hatching a revenge plot..

Edited by Honorless
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Odium + autonomy = rebellion/ violent revolution 

ambition + autonomy = dictatorship or anarchy 

devotion + honor = fanatical rigid devotion leading to cults?

 

 

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2 hours ago, Honorless said:

hmm... that's the exact thing that Amaram's character was suffering from. Taravangian not even considering the chance that he might be wrong, comes less from vanity and more from hopelessness, I think. Like I mentioned before, he is seeking to oppose a god. A god who killed the god he believed in.

I agree Amaram was suffering from vanity and narcissism, though it could be pointed out he actively worked to bring about a desolation, that would result in countless lives lost, just to be seen as the savior. Jasnah thinks to herself exactly that. That he would destroy the armies just so he can be seen as the savior. 

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@Pathfinder, that's exactly what I said? The rest of the quote is about Taravangian. Though I would also include desperate need for self-validation for Amaram.

 

Devotion + Ruin = Nihilism or Self-Destruction

Cultivation + Ambition = Progress/Development

Dictatorship, I think would be Dominion + Odium; Ambition + Autonomy can't be Dictatorship, Anarchy though...

Odium + Ruin = Wrath

Odium + Preservation = Pettiness, I think? Could also be Hatred or Rivalry

Endowment + Ruin = Trickery (like actual Nordic Loki level) or even Cyclical Destruction

Honor + Cultivation = Self-Development (I think the Oaths of Surgebinding show this pretty well)

Preservation + Ruin = (aside from Harmony and the prophesized Discord) again perhaps Cyclical Destruction or Mutability

Honor + Odium = Passion!!! 

Edited by Honorless
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Amaram wants power first and foremost and then obviously his image is extremely important  to him. He wants to be respected, honoured and In a position of power no matter which side it is. But I can not recall anytime saving people was really a thing with him..?? 

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10 minutes ago, Honorless said:

That's exactly what I said? The rest of the quote is about Taravangian. Though I would also include desperate need for self-validation for Amaram.

Self- validation and social-validation 

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1 hour ago, The traveller said:

Self- validation and social-validation 

Heartily agreed! Oh how he wanted, no needed  both. As Kaladin later notes with "then why are you still still hurting?", Jasnah too notes his self-validation seeking behavior in the chapter where she roasts him in front of Shallan, I think

 

Pathfinder meant that Amaram wanted to be seen as a saviour, not that he actually had his priorities straight, wanting to save people

Edited by Honorless
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1 hour ago, Honorless said:

 

Pathfinder meant that Amaram wanted to be seen as a saviour, not that he actually had his priorities straight, wanting to save people

Yes but I m saying he wants to be seen as a hero or model figure that ppl should aspire to be like 

not really a saviour

his saviour arguments were more like justification he provided but deed down what he really wanted was to be seen as inspiring people 

T I think really wants to be the saviour 

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3 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Yes but I m saying he wants to be seen as a hero or model figure that ppl should aspire to be like 

not really a saviour

his saviour arguments were more like justification he provided but deed down what he really wanted was to be seen as inspiring people 

T I think really wants to be the saviour 

:P Amaram is Stormlight's more evil Margaery Tyrell

He doesn't want to be a saviour

He wants to be the saviour

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Tha saviour = T not Amaram :D I would still insist 

and can a Rose exist without thorns...

Edited by The traveller
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13 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

A bit of a tangent but of the shards we know of, which one do you think would be best for mortal inhabitants if the Shard held the world unopposed?

Harmony.  Believes strongly in free will, was a butler before his ascension, and has a hard time interfering.     

6 hours ago, Honorless said:

I really don't want the latter to happen! I want her to remain one of the grounding characters and I want her role to genuinely be one of Rosharan scientific discovery.

Why do you see these as mutually exclusive?

12 hours ago, Calderis said:

In short, I just don't think that the mixture of Cultivation and Odium leads to anything good. 

A Cultivationy shard with more umf could be interesting.

3 hours ago, The traveller said:

Amaram wants power first and foremost and then obviously his image is extremely important  to him. He wants to be respected, honoured and In a position of power no matter which side it is. But I can not recall anytime saving people was really a thing with him..?? 

He wants to be Kaladin without putting in any of the work Kaladin does.  He does the easy stuff Kaladin mentions sharing his personal bunker with a different squad of troops each highstorm.  At the same time he does not go beyond that.  He is happy to do the odd kindness that makes him seem heroic but he continuously fails to go above and beyond.  He does not keep track of his subordinates and he refuses to cause a fuss over an obvious injustice in the name of doing the greater good(Tien).

48 minutes ago, The traveller said:

and can a Rose exist without thorns...

Yes.  Carefully plucks off thorns.  Hear you go.

Edited by Karger
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7 minutes ago, Karger said:

Yes.  Carefully plucks off thorns.  Hear you go.

Haha this was in reference to Margery Tyrell 

she is Rose, her house symbol and thorns are her evilness 

and Cersei did try to pluck the thorns 

did not quite work out well for her, 

because the thorns when plucked, hurt the person doing it more than it hurts the Rose

9 minutes ago, Karger said:

He wants to be Kaladin without putting in any of the work Kaladin does.  He does the easy stuff Kaladin mentions sharing his personal bunker with a different squad of troops each highstorm.  At the same time he does not go beyond that.  He is happy to do the odd kindness that makes him seem heroic but he continuously fails to go above and beyond.  He does not keep track of his subordinates and he refuses to cause a fuss over an obvious injustice in the name of doing the greater good(Tien).

You seem to be making my point only here. I don’t think that amaram wants to save anyone, he just wants to be seen as doing it. Whereas T is atleast genuinely trying in his own misguided and selfish way to save people  

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8 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Haha this was in reference to Margery Tyrell 

she is Rose, her house symbol and thorns are her evilness 

She was not actually evil.  In fact I thought that she was rather nice based on her actions to protect Sansa.

9 minutes ago, The traveller said:

and Cersei did try to pluck the thorns 

did not quite work out well for her, 

She killed them all.

10 minutes ago, The traveller said:

You seem to be making my point only here. I don’t think that amaram wants to save anyone, he just wants to be seen as doing it

I was agreeing with you.

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@Karger, I want Navani to have access to the Surges not via Ideals, as a Radiant but via intelligence, as an Artifabrian, developing fabrials.

In fact, I feel that one of the 10 main would die and what they could do, would have to be recreated via fabrials.

Soulcasting and Regrowth fabrials we've seen, Transportation would perhaps be too difficult if Oathgates are the only fabrial analogue. One of the Dawnshards was mentioned as binding creatures so that could be (Spiritual) Adhesion. There's a fabrial that uses Gravitation. There are fabrials with lesser spren for heat, warning, pain, communication (spanreed) ... I want a TV fabrial

 

I think he's talking about the books not the TV show so Margaery's still alive there. And 'evilness' as in deviousness, not actual maliciousness.

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34 minutes ago, Honorless said:

I think he's talking about the books not the TV show so Margaery's still alive there. And 'evilness' as in deviousness, not actual maliciousness.

In the books she is currently one of the good guys so either way the statement makes no sense.

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