Jump to content

Rosharan space battles


Ixthos

Recommended Posts

At @Karger's request I am expanding on a statement I made in another thread, about the idea of how, in Stormlight, at some point before the end of the series, probably beginning between the gap between the first five and the last five books, or early on in the second five, the Rosharans will engage in at least the beginnings of system-confined space battles with the planet of Braize, and might also begin exploring the other planets and moons of the system - that is, the equivalent of a war between Earth and Mars, rather than say Earth and Alpha Centauri, and visiting Venus and Jupiter, rather than another star's planets.

 

Now this post is in Cosmere discussion because, though it mainly concerns Roshar, and indeed is something which I think will require no further reading of the Cosmere than the Stormlight Archives, part of the justification for what I think this is going to happen involves information about other Cosmere books. All the relevant Cosmere points are covered in this thread, and focusing on the details about Elantris sequals and Mistborn Era 3 - the modern, 1980's trilogy.

To summarise those Cosmere points, things that happen in Elantris's sequels have to be covered before Brandon writes Mistborn era 3, and so those events either impact the entire Cosmere, or Scadrial, or both. Of all possible events that could happen in Elantris, I think the expansion of the influence of Sellish cultures to other worlds, and possibly travel to other planets makes the most sense, especially if that is the last look at them before Era 4, unless they are present in era 3 as well, and are beginning to expand into space. If you will follow the following chain:

  • Mistborn Era 4 - the space opera trilogy - will involve space travel by Scadrians, and likely also other Cosmere civilisations as well, with especial focus on Sel ships and Roshar rockets
  • Sel and Roshar only have a single series each, and so the sudden jump to seeing spacefaring cultures might be a bit of a stretch
  • Scadrial's era 3, the 1980's era, will likely involve some conspiracy and small cyberpunk elements, including secretive and amoral businesses seeking to expand the power of their technologies
  • There is already a means of travel between planets in existence, in addition to the potential in the metallic arts, the other systems, and the shared interactions - including other metals from other shards - and so the ability to steal technology from other planets already exists
  • However, the 1980's and 90 had an emphasis on the idea of governments covering up UFO sightings, alien autopsies, and secretive research, so if other planets are experimenting with space ships, a crashed one - like in Lost Metal, only from another world rather than the south - could be in play
  • Era 1 ended with the seeds or era 2, and era 2 is almost certainly going to end with the seeds of era 3, so if era 4 is space opera, and set far forwards in time, era 3 will likely end with the beginnings of the Scadrian space program, and a knowledge more widely known to the rest of the population of Scadrial that there are other worlds, so having space ships and experimentation with the magic of other worlds and getting it to work with the metallic arts would make sense

 

Now, focusing entirely on Roshar, the main thrust of this is as follows:

  • Brandon has calculated how long it would take a Windrunner to travel to each planet in the Rosharan system (and likely that also includes information on the gas giants and how the travel time depends on where in their orbits the planets are) [Edit] Explicit confirmation on how long it would take to reach the moons, no confirmation on calculations on how long reaching other planets (though perhaps Elsecallers and Willshapers would then play a part)
  • Windrunners can control pressure, and as I remember Brandon said that this is important
  • Windrunners would likely require a massive supply of Stormlight, so unless the armour can hold orders of magnitude more Stormlight than a Windrunner with a bag of gems the Windrunner would require a ship
  • Roshar has three inhabited planets, and each is important to the story of Stormlight, with Ashyn the human home for the Rosharans, Braize Odium's stronghold - and so would need to be assaulted. The three moons also have a strange significance. It is highly unlikely that no-one will think about using at least one of the two flying orders to reach them, giving their propulsion doesn't require atmosphere, and also Windrunners can control pressure
  • Oathbringer had massive amounts of spacial information, the statements of human's origins from another planet, Azure's reveal of human life elsewhere beyond Roshar, and so forth (also, complete side note, but again the link above covers why that is important for the partially conflux stories for the entire Cosmere sequence)
  • Ten books are a lot, and each book already covers a trilogies worth of information, each giving new information that completely changes the game. Oathbringer also has designs for Windrunner powered ships - see the first point
  • Braize has its own unique ecology, and two flashback books - Ash's and Taln's - will likely include flashbacks to Braize, a location which again is the enemy's stronghold. That is a lot of information that likely needs to be visited.
  • Braize is at war with Roshar. Stormlight is an epic war book. Space battles are the most epic a war between two planets can get in a setting that is stated to eventually have space travel.

 

All this adds to the idea that, perhaps at the mid point when there is a lull in combat, maybe with the other Shard's inhibiting Odium or having killed him, maybe with the ten characters stopping Odium's armies as the Herald's did (and before they as ten and their spren take up Honour/Honour and some of the others collectively, and yes I'm slipping that theory back in here :-P ) that Roshar will look towards preparing for the next stage, and taking the fight to Braize directly. Maybe Elsecallers and Willshapers will be involved, but I think a ship can do more than they can, so it wouldn't just be Elsecallers and Willshapers. A stretch, yes, but one that I think is both plausible and would result in an interesting story. I don't think they will be travelling to other planets outside their solar system yet, but it would set up a justification for what their culture would be like in future Mistborn novels, a chance to see them expand slowly into space in preparation for Mistborn era 4.

 

What do you think? :-)

Edited by Ixthos
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I dont think they will get into Space Combat or interplanetary travel in the Physical Realm.  For purely Doylistic reasons, I expect the interplanetary travel that will appear in the Stormlight Archive to be entirely realmic, and Space travel to wait until Era 4 (and I suspect will require the magics of more than one planet).  WOB says he hasnt decided on the initial Rosharan migration being an SR vs CR mechanism, but has stated that it wasnt done spaceships.

However, I do not have any real support for that stance, just a feeling on the narrative flow.

 

26 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

Now, focusing entirely on Roshar, the main thrust of this is as follows:

  • Brandon has calculated how long it would take a Windrunner to travel to each planet in the Rosharan system (and likely that also includes information on the gas giants and how the travel time depends on where in their orbits the planets are)

I dont know how I missed this one but that's awesome, can you point me toward that?  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I dont think they will get into Space Combat or interplanetary travel in the Physical Realm.  For purely Doylistic reasons, I expect the interplanetary travel that will appear in the Stormlight Archive to be entirely realmic, and Space travel to wait until Era 4 (and I suspect will require the magics of more than one planet).  WOB says he hasnt decided on the initial Rosharan migration being an SR vs CR mechanism, but has stated that it wasnt done spaceships.

However, I do not have any real support for that stance, just a feeling on the narrative flow.

 

I dont know how I missed this one but that's awesome, can you point me toward that?  

I just did a search for it, and it looks like a slightly misremembered it: he definitely has calculations for how long it would take to reach the moons, but it doesn't say about the other planets. I'll see if the one I remembered is also there, but this might be it.

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

For a Windrunner, if he had enough heating fabrials and enough Stormlight, how high up could he get?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You could exit orbit. Windrunners, remember they're gravitation and pressure. So if he knew what he was doing, we have actually factored how long it would take to get to the various moons.

Words of Radiance San Diego signing (March 4, 2014)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Oathbringer also has designs for Windrunner powered ships

This is likely using fabrials, not Windrunners. There are methods by which you can use conjoined fabrials for flight. (without even having one on the ground -- both halves can be in the ship)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ChickenLiberty said:

This is likely using fabrials, not Windrunners. There are methods by which you can use conjoined fabrials for flight. (without even having one on the ground -- both halves can be in the ship)

Either way the principle holds true - the calculations for Windrunners would likewise work for a Skybreaker with a pressure fabrial, and a ship with both types. And the design is an indication that ships that can move using the surge of gravitation are being designed, they are starting to move towards magical air ships, a step along the way to magical space ships, especially when they have a surge that can make it maintain a viable atmosphere in space using pressure, which Brandon has noted Windrunners can do, and thus so can fabrials.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fabrial based, or Radiant based shops still both have to overcome one major problem. 

Spren are bound to the Roshar system at most, possibly to the world itself. 

At best, assuming they can reach interplanetary travel in the 10-15 years to the back half (which I highly doubt) they still would have to overcome the spren problem to level the system, assuming they can go that far. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

Fabrial based, or Radiant based shops still both have to overcome one major problem. 

Spren are bound to the Roshar system at most, possibly to the world itself. 

At best, assuming they can reach interplanetary travel in the 10-15 years to the back half (which I highly doubt) they still would have to overcome the spren problem to level the system, assuming they can go that far. 

That problem still would have to be overcome by Era 4, and there is this:

Quote

Alex Hetu

If you went to Shadesmar on Scadrial would there be spren there?

Brandon Sanderson

"Spren" is a term for things on Roshar. So yes, there are a few, but they're from Roshar originally.

General Twitter 2015 (Dec. 11, 2015)

Note, a few, so not just one.

 

So spren already have left the planet, and for Hoid to be the beggar in Bands of Morning and the earlier two books he would either have to leave his spren behind or find a way to remove it from Roshar. Also, remember voidspren can travel from Braize to Roshar.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Note, a few, so not just one.

 

So spren already have left the planet, and for Hoid to be the beggar in Bands of Morning and the earlier two books he would either have to leave his spren behind or find a way to remove it from Roshar. Also, remember voidspren can travel from Braize to Roshar.

I get that, and that means that more than one person has figured it out... 

But it's the same issue that Cognitive Shadows have. While the Five scholars figured it out and were able to leave Nalthis, Kel hasn't figured it out in three and a half centuries, and the Heralds haven't in 5 millenia. 

Quote

Questioner

Has Kelsier done any worldhopping?

Brandon Sanderson

Kelsier is bound to Scadrial the same way that a spren is bound to Roshar, because of the level of Investiture and the type and the way it happened. It is possible to get offworld but he does not know what it is.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)
Quote

Questioner

Have we seen cameos of Heralds on other Shardworlds?

Brandon Sanderson

The Heralds are tied to the system by the magic that permeates them. They could not leave.

Questioner

I thought I saw someone but I guess not.

Brandon Sanderson

It’s part of the magic. Some would call them Cognitive Shadows, right? Whether they are or not. "Cognitive Shadow" is a very ambiguous term in the cosmere. It means, basically your soul-- It's the same thing with petrification, right? Investiture replaced your soul, and permeated your soul, and your soul continues to exist, but... you are usually Invested with something, that's tied, and you're basically like pure Investiture then. You're tied to the thing you're Connected to. Most of the things that you're gonna see with that, travelling is going to be very difficult, unless you know how to do it. You have seen people do it.

Questioner

Who?

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher... You have seen people do it. But anyone who's got-- yeah.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

Hoid is one of the oldest people in the Cosmere. Him knowing doesn't surprise me too much. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

True, though there is also the possibility that, for example, travel off planet is possible but difficult so long as they travel to another planet or moon in the same planetary system, the investiture of the shards there is throughout the entire Rosharan system unless I am mistaken. Also, if they could interrogate any voidspren they might find the secret if there is indeed one that the voidspren know. Either way the secret need not remain a secret long in the Rosharan system for long if Vashar knows, and he is also a character they will likely be interacting with more.

 

That some know the secret and who are either native or present means the secret isn't an insurmountable issue, and either way it will have to be addressed on screen for space travel to make sense when the planets start sending ships.

 

[Edit] Sorry @Calderis, I didn't tag you earlier!

Edited by Ixthos
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, StanLemon said:

I think the biggest challenge for leaving Roshar as a plot is Investiture. Fabrials and Surgebinding both are heavily reliant on the large amount of Investiture available on Roshar, something that will be far more scarce in usable forms once they leave.

An overcharged Radiant with multiple lashings for several minutes might be able to put a sizable mass in orbit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Karger I've wondered that myself, though I think if that happens the biggest impact on distances in the Cognitive realm probably come from the more powerful intellects, and shards have powerful minds as well as a knowledge of the distances involved - still, that would also help explain why space ships become important in era 4, due to the normal methods using the cognitive realm being made unusable due to that belief.

Also, your second idea reminds me of mass drivers - that would be fun, Windrunner / gravity fabrial based ground launch systems, possibly with Bondsmiths to power them up further! In theory that actually could be used to launch masses at relativistic speeds at Braize, especially if the Windrunners / pressure fabrials removed the atmospheric drag from the mass.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I dont think there is a reason to do PR space travel, since there is a stable perpendicularity in the horneater peaks. It would take a lot less stormlight to Fly to the peaks, then fly through the CR to Braize. There is almost certainly a perpendicularity there as well from Odium (not that it would be safe). The only reason for PR space travel would be to get to Ashyn (for the record, it makes sense that Odium was on Ashyn, generated a perpendicularity to move humans into the CR, and they took Cultivation's perpendicularity or honor's back into the PR. Then Odium left Ashyn, meaning there isn't a perpendicularity there anymore). Willshaper or Elsecaller intervention is more likely in that case than actual space travel.

I have wondered if we will get the Classic Chewbacca Death tactic. For those not in the know, it involves destabilizing the orbit of a moon as a siege tactic in interplanetary combat. I'm not sure we have any information regarding moons orbiting Braize, but we have been told that the moons are important for Roshar. That to me means it might be a possible tactic that Odium attempts to enact, and the Lashings would work just fine to do that, assuming tremendous amounts of stormlight.

The only other alternative reason for the moons to be important is the old "The planet is a fabrial" concept. Which also could work as an interplanetary weapon (think space beams with the moons as a focal lens).

So, while I think that space battle are possible, it's more likely to me that interplanetary bombardment, either via moon or something else, is much more likely.

 

As a separate item under discussion, Spren leaving Roshar sounds a lot to me like the Ire using the Dor away from Sel via concentrated connection. That basically equates it to something like deep-sea diving, with an inherent time limit to journeys. It's possible that it can be accomplished using unkeyed metal minds.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
  • Chaos locked this topic
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...