Enough with the Moash thing

[AonEne]

1 hour ago, Booknerd said:

Also the best chapter by a long ways is Kaladin fighting Amaram at the end of the book. 

That's a matter of opinion  

And I'm pretty sure Brandon has confirmed that Elhokar's dead...besides, the text made it pretty clear. It would be hard to survive the things he did, and that is how Shardblades work. But you're allowed to have any theory you want, of course, so don't let that stop you. 

[Elsecaller_17.5]

6 hours ago, Booknerd said:

I had almost no feeling in that chapter. And I don't buy Elhokars death, I don't care the shardblade, the spren, or the unmade saying he's dead, it doesn't feel real. Also the best chapter by a long ways is Kaladin fighting Amaram at the end of the book.

I don't know the Shardblade seems pretty open and shut he's dead. What do you have to argue against it. 

And I'm not saying it's the best chapter or even my favorite chapter (it's not) just that Brandon was really tugging on the heartstrings.

[Aon Tia]

I find Elhokar’s death scene as a very surprising, emotional and devastating moment in the series. Mainly because I never thought that Brandon can do something like that. 
He introduced us in book 1 to Elhokar who is paranoid, spoilt, arrogant and hopeless king. I instantly hated him and thought him the worst thing that happened to Alethkar. He refuses to listen to anything that Dalinar says, stuff that made total sense to me. 
In book 2, we see another side of him, we see not only how spoilt he is, but, how whiny he is! How hopeless and clueless he is as to the needs of his kingdom and how incapable of bringing about any changes. But in the end, we see that atleast he has realised and accepted his failures and wants to change. The moment when he asks Kaladin how to be a leader! That is a moment I think when his pride and arrogance are broken completely. And then, Brandon made us see him as Dalinar’s Tien!! I think in a single brilliant stroke, he made us see Elhokar differently through no effort on Elhokar’s part at all. 
But then book 3 builds on it. It appears that he has changed. He wants to be a better king etc etc. in short, he is, it appears, on a major redemption arc and we are buying it all. We begin to root for him. Then the scene comes, and finally a theory I had, since book 1 that he can become a lightweaver is about to become true but just when he is about to do it, he is killed. 
 

I never thought that I would read this in a Brandon book. He, as I see it, does not let things get too gloomy. He shows hope to us and makes it happen. First time, he showed us hope for Elhokar, Elhokar was on the verge of achieving everything he hoped to achieve, he was about to become one of radiants, higher than a king in status easily when nope, he dies instead. 
I think surprise was my major reaction to this scene. 

[+Invocation]

1 hour ago, The Traveller said:

does not let things get too gloomy.

Are we reading the same books?

[Honorless]

2 hours ago, Invocation said:

Are we reading the same books?

I have to agree with Invo here, Way of Kings was quite dark

Edited February 15, 2020 by Honorless

[The Awakened Salad]

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

I have to agree with Invo here, Way of Kings was quite dark

The Way of Kings (and Stormlight in general) is quite dark in terms of its subject material (slavery, war, attempted suicide, basically everything about the bridge runs), but the tone and themes of the books themselves aren’t really all that dark. 

As @The Traveller said, Brandon usually gives us hope. I’ve always found that it’s one of the recurring themes in his novels. It’s very obvious in Mistborn and Elantris, maybe less so in Warbreaker, but it’s still very present in Stormlight. The series is about overcoming trauma and finding the strength to keep going, to always take the next step. If that doesn’t scream hope, I don’t know what does. So even though the subject matter is dark, Brandon presents it to us in a way that tells us this gloomy stuff can be overcome.

[Honorless]

I have to say I agree with the feeling of anger people feel towards Moash for his actions in WoR much more than his actions in OB. He did attack and almost kill Kaladin, the person who saved him in more ways than one.

But I still believe that what Moash felt and did there was understandable from his perspective. Revenge for losing your family because of someone's embarrassment, getting turned into a slave, in a situation as hopeless as the bridges for other people's grudges, games & entertainment, then saving some of those people's lives by putting your own lives in danger, then seeing the person who brought you out of that misery and lead you save the lives of those other people getting jailed for the action of accusing one of them? So very understandable that he wouldn't want to take the high road and forgive the one person linking all of these "misfortunes" together. 

[Aon Tia]

11 hours ago, Invocation said:

Are we reading the same books?

Guys read Malazan or Robin hobb and you will know what a book that is gloomy all the time like. 
Thank you @The Awakened Salad I agree. This is what I was trying to say, the general theme and tone of Sanderson books is hopeful and light. 
In fact one reason I like SA more than other series of his is because now it appears that he is getting increasingly dark and serious. 
That is also why I liked HoA more than other two books because it had big time stakes. 
I see Brandon books as periods of gloomy stuff and hopeful stuff all mixed up. Mostly if we see a character showing hope for redemption, he will get redemption. 
I think Elhokar was first who showed promised which was crushed at the cusp of fulfilling that promise. 
 
Beautifully articulated @The Awakened Salad gloomy stuff presented as something that can be overcome. Exactly. 
Back to the topic however, 

@Honorless I do get where you are going with this. No doubt the path Moash took was understandable as in how someone in his shoes could find revenge very tempting but that is not the only path he could have taken. He could have taken the high road. And in a series where so many characters like kaladin, dalinar, Jasnah etc often take the high road, Despite, facing difficulties and hurdles. I think it gets easy for readers to dislike that one character who did not. 

Edited February 15, 2020 by The Traveller

[Use the Falchion]

9 hours ago, The Traveller said:

I see Brandon books as periods of gloomy stuff and hopeful stuff all mixed up. Mostly if we see a character showing hope for redemption, he will get redemption. 
I think Elhokar was first who showed promised which was crushed at the cusp of fulfilling that promise. 

Elhokar fits perfectly within theme of Redemption as per OB in my opinion. Some people, like Elhokar, try to redeem themselves but their past actions catch up to them. Others, like Moash and Amaram (and Szeth to a more than usually acknowledged degree), feel they are too far gone and look for something or someone else to blame and take away their guilt. The rare few like Dalinar who reach that edge and still have the chance to change are lucky, and Dalinar's actions at the very end of the book is to help those lucky few that are blessed with the opportunity to redeem themselves recognize said blessing (and to help those in Moash and Amaram's situation realize that so long as you are breathing, you can change). 

Hope without a full picture is nice, but it's not always fulfilling. Elhokar's death is needed for that whole picture. 

Anyways, I have nothing else to add to the actual conversation. Carry on!

[Honorless]

Hey @AonEne, thanks for defending me and the topic in your response to the question of why I made this topic, I either missed those comments & responses back then or chose to ignore them for a while

And thanks to the rest of you as well. I'm gonna sound more than a little miffed in the rant below but it's because of the things I mentioned, everyone of you who commented on the topic itself was perfectly civil

 

Let me explain my rationale for creating this topic:
No, I'm not daring people to say #f*ckMoash here, but I am calling them out.
No I'm not trying to "convert" people into #Moashdidnothingwrong camp, I'm trying to generate sympathy for the character. I refuse to believe that anyone could watch their family being killed for petty reason, be enslaved and forced to become a nameless meat-shield for other people's grudges, and games, watching people die thanklessly, needlessly, then save some of the very same people, then see the person who saved you and them getting jailed (actually almost executed) for daring to speak up against one of them... I refuse to believe that anyone put through those positions should be asked to take the high road, to forgive & forget, and to become a good little bodyguard to these very people. Elhokar was the one connecting element, he was just as responsible as Roshone was for Moash grandparents' deaths, Elhokar didn't free them even after he realized Roshone's corruption because he was embarrassed, his grudge resulted in the War of Reckoning, that put him in the Shattered Plains as part of the infamous Bridge 4, the dregs even among the wretchedness of the Bridgecrews.

It's just a book bro, chill out
It's just a topic bro, chill out
Yeah, it's a book, I'm trying to point out that the hate against Moash comes from flanderization of a very well-written character. Also because of our sympathy towards the main character/PoV character because it was through Kaladin's eyes that we saw these events unfold. It's a knee jerk reaction stemming from loving the main character.
I also have a practical reason for posting the topic, that's where the "calling out" part comes out. People online are getting mistreated for trying to defend Moash. Chill out, Moash haters.

Also it's an annoying meme, and it's not better than "I am a Stick", in my opinion

[AonEne]

5 hours ago, Honorless said:

Hey @AonEne, thanks for defending me and the topic in your response to the question of why I made this topic, I either missed those comments & responses back then or chose to ignore them for a while 

Oh yeah, anytime. You created a genuine topic and someone trivialized what you were saying, which always sucks. 

5 hours ago, Honorless said:

I refuse to believe that anyone put through those positions should be asked to take the high road, to forgive & forget, and to become a good little bodyguard to these very people. 

This is something I don’t think has been touched upon much, actually. The above scenario is actively damaging to Moash’s mental health. It is saying that he should be in close proximity to, and passively helping, someone who helped to kill people who meant a lot to him. That can be really freaking bad for someone’s state of mind, especially when - at that point in the series - Elhokar was still not a good person. He began to improve a little later on, but it’s important to remember that Moash never saw that. If we had gotten the story completely from his POV, I think people would be seeing things very differently - and not because of unreliable narration or anything like that, because his POV chapters have been mostly unbiased, last I remember. 

It’s easy to say someone should take the morally high road, that they should forgive and respect the protagonist and move on, when we read these books from an outside perspective. We can analyze and see all sides and know what Brandon says; and we’re unbiased. Most notably in that we never lived through what the characters have in their pasts, not even in the way we live through events that are currently happening. If all we get is a description of what happened, then in most cases, we’re automatically not going to have as much of an emotional attachment. (For every character, there will always be those few who laud them as their favorite, and write fanfics and create headcanons until it does have that attachment, but it’s not written into the source material.) 

If we had had that in this instance, with a flashback of Moash hearing the news that his grandparents had been arrested, with a chapter of their POVs fleshing each other out as background characters and dying together or something, if we’d gotten anything more raw or closer to the source than a page of their grandson explaining to Kaladin why he hates the king, it would be next to scenes like Tien’s death or Shallan killing her father or the Rift. Huge and tragic and memorable. 

Nobody (or in any case, very few people) expects Kaladin to forgive Amaram. People don’t ask Dalinar to forget how Sadeas betrayed him at the Tower. No one insists that rather than disliking Mraize, Shallan should put herself in his shoes and think about how he isn’t all bad and might one day redeem himself. These characters have no reason to believe that their various adversaries will change, no evidence that they’ll get a redemption arc, and it would be unhealthy to hold them to the impossible standard of give everyone another chance and hope for the best! It’s a fantastic philosophy and I theoretically love it, but practically, it’s not a safe idea. 

It’s exactly the same for Moash.

The only difference is which characters the story focuses on (nothing wrong with that, you can’t make it about everyone) and our outsider perspective letting us know that Elhokar was getting slightly less arrogant, recognized he had problems, and was also on the way to Radianthood. We read those signs to mean he was being redeemed. Moash did not have access to that same evidence, and therefore didn’t form the same conclusion. Saying Moash should have taken the high road just doesn’t add up when he had absolutely no reason to think that was the right decision. 

5 hours ago, Honorless said:

It's just a book bro, chill out 

I honestly loathe this phrase because nothing is ever just a book. Literature and media heavily influence and are influenced by real life, as all culture is. If there’s something in a book, it’s because it exists irl. If there’s sexism or racism or homophobia, it’s because that crem exists outside of the book, too. “It’s just a _____” is a copout answer by default, because no literature is ever JUST anything. 

5 hours ago, Honorless said:

Also it's an annoying meme, and it's not better than "I am a Stick", in my opinion 

My belief is that it’s far worse, because generally speaking, IAAS doesn’t hurt people. The Moash hate has grown to the extent where half of it is hating on anyone who likes Moash. And that is bullying, plain and simple. 

Edited February 16, 2020 by AonEne

[Honorless]

Absolutely agreed with all of that

[Frustration]

On 2/14/2020 at 5:18 PM, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

I don't know the Shardblade seems pretty open and shut he's dead. What do you have to argue against it. 

And I'm not saying it's the best chapter or even my favorite chapter (it's not) just that Brandon was really tugging on the heartstrings.

I know logically he is dead, I just don't feel it. I would not be surprised in any measure if he came back.

[Aon Tia]

On 2/18/2020 at 10:06 PM, Booknerd said:

I know logically he is dead, I just don't feel it. I would not be surprised in any measure if he came back.

I don’t want Elhokar back to be honest. It would ruin the impact of a great scene in the books

Edited February 19, 2020 by The Traveller

[AonEne]

1 hour ago, The Traveller said:

I don’t want Elhokar back to be honest. It would ruin the impact of a great scene in the boos.

I’ve seen a character in a different story come back without any consequence, and it was one of the things that ruined the story, honestly. Plus, Brandon’s said he wants to be careful not to bring many characters back, because of what Trav just said, and because you either break your rules in doing it or don’t kill them off right. He already brought back Szeth and Kelsier and faked us out with Jasnah - any more would just be too much imo. Edit: but again, have your own opinion 

Edited February 19, 2020 by AonEne

[Frustration]

10 hours ago, AonEne said:

I’ve seen a character in a different story come back without any consequence, and it was one of the things that ruined the story, honestly. Plus, Brandon’s said he wants to be careful not to bring many characters back, because of what Trav just said, and because you either break your rules in doing it or don’t kill them off right. He already brought back Szeth and Kelsier and faked us out with Jasnah - any more would just be too much imo. Edit: but again, have your own opinion 

11 hours ago, The Traveller said:

I don’t want Elhokar back to be honest. It would ruin the impact of a great scene in the boos.

I don't WANT him back I honestly don't care, I just wouldn't be surprised if he did come back.

[DustyFootSpren]

I hate Moash with all the hatred Kaladin can manage. I only hate him for one reason and one reason only, he tried to kill Kaladin. The guy who saved him from death on bridge runs however many times, the guy who gave him hope and reason to live by training him up in the hopes of free him from slavery and bridge runs. 

I get Moash and his reasons for wanting to kill Elhokar but to go through Kaladin is just a no no, He owes his life to Kaladin. I'm not hating Moash because of him wanting revenge or the fact that he eventually gets it, it was slightly comedic when he killed Elhokar and then saluted Kaladin. 

I just can't stand the treacherous act of actually attempting to kill Kaladin, most of his action makes sense except for that and killing Jezrien without even thinking it over. First ever post so go easy on me.

[Aon Tia]

@DustyFootSpren welcome to the shard ! 

[Nellac]

On 2/15/2020 at 8:30 PM, Honorless said:

I refuse to believe that anyone could watch their family being killed for petty reason, be enslaved and forced to become a nameless meat-shield for other people's grudges, and games, watching people die thanklessly, needlessly, then save some of the very same people, then see the person who saved you and them getting jailed (actually almost executed) for daring to speak up against one of them... I refuse to believe that anyone put through those positions should be asked to take the high road, to forgive & forget, and to become a good little bodyguard to these very people. Elhokar was the one connecting element, he was just as responsible as Roshone was for Moash grandparents' deaths, Elhokar didn't free them even after he realized Roshone's corruption because he was embarrassed, his grudge resulted in the War of Reckoning, that put him in the Shattered Plains as part of the infamous Bridge 4, the dregs even among the wretchedness of the Bridgecrews.

 

And yet there is someone in the story who had gone through extremely similar, if not worse, circumstances and come out on top and taken the high road. Kaladin not only didn't do anything to the light eyes at first, but actively tried to appease and help them. Him and his father even saved Rashone's life and did what they could for his son. In return, Kaladin lost his brother, the one person who could drive away his depression and brought joy into his life. He then set that aside and still kept fighting for the very light eyes. Then Kaladin risks his life, and the life of most of his men to save Amaram, the very man who broke his promise to protect Tien. After saving Amaram and killing a full on shard-bearer, an act that wouldd put him in the history books forever, Kaladin is then betrayed and all of his men are killed by the very man he saved. He is then made a slave and sent to work as a human shield. He figures it out and uses his leadership and surgebinding to save himself and all of his men, including Moash. He then tries to out the man who ruined his life and is thrown in prison for the trouble. Now there is a point here where he starts to take the low road, but he quickly realizes that this viewpoint is flawed. He then goes out and risks his life to save the very man who had him thrown in jail. He even stands up against his "friend" to do so. He then has to watch Amaram be made into a high prince, one of the most powerful people in the world at that point. He also goes to meet Rashone and is in a position where he could kill him. He has the power to get vengeance on the man who doomed his brother to die in the army, but he decides to be better than that. He takes the higher road and walks away from his desire for revenge. Now he does later get to kill Amaram, but that is in the heat of battle. If Moash hadn't tried to assassinate the king, but had first attacked him during the invasion in Alethkar there would be less reason to be angry because that is just how war goes. Yes, Moash had it rough, but I find it hard to believe it's bad to ask this person to take the high road. Especially when there is a character in the book who has gone through just as hard of times and has taken that very same high road.

On 2/16/2020 at 1:45 AM, AonEne said:

Nobody (or in any case, very few people) expects Kaladin to forgive Amaram. People don’t ask Dalinar to forget how Sadeas betrayed him at the Tower. No one insists that rather than disliking Mraize, Shallan should put herself in his shoes and think about how he isn’t all bad and might one day redeem himself. These characters have no reason to believe that their various adversaries will change, no evidence that they’ll get a redemption arc, and it would be unhealthy to hold them to the impossible standard of give everyone another chance and hope for the best! It’s a fantastic philosophy and I theoretically love it, but practically, it’s not a safe idea. 

I think many people who dislike Moash and his choices don't have a problem with his anger and hatred at the King. It is the fact that instead of putting his anger aside for the betterment of himself, Bridge 4, and Alethkar as a hole, as Kaladin does, he let's it rule his life and he turns on the man that he literally took him from the bottom to the top. The man that took him from a slave who would've certainly died, to a highly respected light-eyes that has two priceless weapons. It's not the fact that he's angry that people hate, it is how he deals with that anger and how it affects Kaladin.

[Honorless]

46 minutes ago, Nellac said:

And yet there is someone in the story who had gone through extremely similar, if not worse, circumstances and come out on top and taken the high road. Kaladin not only didn't do anything to the light eyes at first, but actively tried to appease and help them. Him and his father even saved Rashone's life and did what they could for his son. In return, Kaladin lost his brother, the one person who could drive away his depression and brought joy into his life. He then set that aside and still kept fighting for the very light eyes. Then Kaladin risks his life, and the life of most of his men to save Amaram, the very man who broke his promise to protect Tien. After saving Amaram and killing a full on shard-bearer, an act that wouldd put him in the history books forever, Kaladin is then betrayed and all of his men are killed by the very man he saved. He is then made a slave and sent to work as a human shield. He figures it out and uses his leadership and surgebinding to save himself and all of his men, including Moash. He then tries to out the man who ruined his life and is thrown in prison for the trouble. Now there is a point here where he starts to take the low road, but he quickly realizes that this viewpoint is flawed. He then goes out and risks his life to save the very man who had him thrown in jail. He even stands up against his "friend" to do so. He then has to watch Amaram be made into a high prince, one of the most powerful people in the world at that point. He also goes to meet Rashone and is in a position where he could kill him. He has the power to get vengeance on the man who doomed his brother to die in the army, but he decides to be better than that. He takes the higher road and walks away from his desire for revenge. Now he does later get to kill Amaram, but that is in the heat of battle. If Moash hadn't tried to assassinate the king, but had first attacked him during the invasion in Alethkar there would be less reason to be angry because that is just how war goes. Yes, Moash had it rough, but I find it hard to believe it's bad to ask this person to take the high road. Especially when there is a character in the book who has gone through just as hard of times and has taken that very same high road.

I think many people who dislike Moash and his choices don't have a problem with his anger and hatred at the King. It is the fact that instead of putting his anger aside for the betterment of himself, Bridge 4, and Alethkar as a hole, as Kaladin does, he let's it rule his life and he turns on the man that he literally took him from the bottom to the top. The man that took him from a slave who would've certainly died, to a highly respected light-eyes that has two priceless weapons. It's not the fact that he's angry that people hate, it is how he deals with that anger and how it affects Kaladin.

I understand and agree with what you're feeling here, the thing is though those are the exact things that make me feel like Kaladin sets an unreasonably high morality bar.

[Nellac]

31 minutes ago, Honorless said:

I understand and agree with what you're feeling here, the thing is though those are the exact things that make me feel like Kaladin sets an unreasonably high morality bar.

Is there such a thing? Isn't the point of morality that you are doing the right thing? Can it be possible to do too good of a thing? I understand, but don't agree with, the argument that what Moash did was right, but that doesn't seem to be your rebuttal here. It seems, and you can correct me if I'm misinterpreting it, that you are saying that simply because it's hard to take the high road, we shouldn't be disappointed in those who don't. This doesn't make any sense. We should all try to do the best and most moral thing we can and expect others too as well. Now we can disagree and debate on what is and what isn't moral, but to justify actions by saying it is too highly most to expect people to do it is ridiculous. It's basically an easy it for those who don't want to do the right thing.

[Honorless]

37 minutes ago, Nellac said:

Is there such a thing? Isn't the point of morality that you are doing the right thing? Can it be possible to do too good of a thing? I understand, but don't agree with, the argument that what Moash did was right, but that doesn't seem to be your rebuttal here. It seems, and you can correct me if I'm misinterpreting it, that you are saying that simply because it's hard to take the high road, we shouldn't be disappointed in those who don't. This doesn't make any sense. We should all try to do the best and most moral thing we can and expect others too as well. Now we can disagree and debate on what is and what isn't moral, but to justify actions by saying it is too highly most to expect people to do it is ridiculous. It's basically an easy it for those who don't want to do the right thing.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying, that's not all I'm saying but yes, absolutely. There's such a thing as burning yourself out.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Honorless

[Greywatch]

I said on a Stormlight Shardcast way back when about how I think most people would think and act like Moash. I certainly found him relatable, in an uncomfortable way, that I found challenging. I have to deal with my anger about how Kaladin's arc is ending up with, if not forgiveness, then some kind of letting go, in a way that feels unfair. I frequently am annoyed whenever someone claims that Kaladin's anger and hatred is unreasonable - no, it isn't, it's perfectly reasonable. I want to hold onto it, even wallow in it. I get Moash's rage deeply, and that's why I despise it so much. It's the point where I have to grapple with Brandon's personal philosophy the most, the part where it seems clearest to me that this is a book written by someone whose philosophy doesn't 100% align with mine, and also the part where I do the most self-reflection to consider if I do agree with what Brandon is saying about hatred. I don't want to be like Moash, but if I hold onto my rage, is that a guarantee I'm going to end up doing something unforgivable, or must I let go of it to be the kind of person I admire more (ie. Kaladin)?

[Karger]

14 hours ago, Dreamer said:

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying, that's not all I'm saying but yes, absolutely. There's such a thing as burning yourself out.

There is a difference between pitying and having compassion for those who fail to take the high road and deeming such behavior acceptable or even expected.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Karger

[Honorless]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

 deeming such behavior acceptable or even expected.

When did I say that?