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Enough with the Moash thing

158 posts in this topic

43 minutes ago, Wyndlerunner said:

What I do not dislike is the constant harassment of those who don't share my opinion, by those who do. 

Also @AonEne: Just Ark being Ark is no valid excuse for his behavior. As, in my experience/observation, 'Ark being Ark' is kind of mean/lacking in tact 

Do you mean “also dislike”? ;) 

That’s...a fair observation to make. More lacking in tact than mean, I think. He doesn’t try to be mean afaik. He and others just don’t seem to think about how certain things could be rude or hurtful a lot of the time. He’s a teenager, he’ll get over it. 

26 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Let's not point fingers at was seemingly a very obvious joke gif not meant in a personal way. 

While I agree that attacking people who state they like a character you don't is ridiculous, there's a big difference between actively insulting someone and laughing at a funny little cartoon that basically amounts to "I don't understand why people like this character." 

There's a difference between someone being intentionally hurtful, and going out of your way to be offended... 

No, I don’t think it was meant personally either, and yes, it was of course a joke. It was on the Sanderson Memes thread. However, just because something is a joke doesn’t mean it wasn’t offensive. Random example, racist jokes. (I’m not saying that joke was racist, just making a comparison, so please don’t misunderstand me.) 

If the gif had been of Moash getting hit, that would be understandable. I would not have personally agreed (l mean, think of the poor person who now has to clean all that crap off their train, and what if the people on the train get traumatized? :P) but hey, if others find it humorous, who cares.

The gif was not of Moash getting hit, it was a person who liked Moash getting hit. If someone doesn’t understand why people like a certain character, then just say so! I have nothing against that. Any number of people would answer, there are already discussion threads that exist for that type of thing.

Making a meme representing someone getting slammed into by a rusting train is not my idea of a good way to say “Hey, why do you think this?” or even “This is a weird opinion to have.” The clearest communication I get from that is “Having this opinion makes it okay for you to be hit by a train.” 

I am not going out of my way to be offended. I was genuinely made uncomfortable by that gif, and considered it a good example to use in this thread. 

@Calderis

Edited by AonEne
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6 minutes ago, AonEne said:

Do you mean “also dislike”? ;) 

That’s...a fair observation to make. More lacking in tact than mean, I think. He doesn’t try to be mean afaik. He and others just don’t seem to think about how certain things could be rude or hurtful a lot of the time. He’s a teenager, he’ll get over it. 

Yes, that's what I meant. 

Also, fair enough- I guess I was always a little older than my age as a teenager, and generally associated with others like that, so it's a little hard to remember that other people do struggle with that.  Also, what's 'afaik' mean?

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It means: as far as I know

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3 minutes ago, Honorless said:

It means: as far as I know

Thank you good sir or madam

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15 minutes ago, AonEne said:

I am not going out of my way to be offended. I was genuinely made uncomfortable by that gif, and considered it a good example to use in this thread

Fair enough, and I didn't mean to be insulting myself. 

I tend to try and look at things in the spirit in which they're meant though, and I highly doubt that someone sharing that gif would actually intend for anyone to be harmed. 

I saw it as the over the top slapstick humor I believe it was intended. Sorry for my poor word choice. 

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2 minutes ago, Wyndlerunner said:

Thank you good sir or madam

Thank you for that consideration! Most people just assume whoever's talking to them is a dude by default unless they specify they're a girl

Edited by Honorless
Note: I am a dude, though
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7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Fair enough, and I didn't mean to be insulting myself. 

I tend to try and look at things in the spirit in which they're meant though, and I highly doubt that someone sharing that gif would actually intend for anyone to be harmed. 

I saw it as the over the top slapstick humor I believe it was intended. Sorry for my poor word choice. 

I don’t think he actually intended to physically harm anyone, yeah. I’m sorry myself if I was overly defensive. There’s a time for both points of view. :) 

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26 minutes ago, Honorless said:

@Kaladin-Stormblessed thank you for presenting your opinions and contributing to the discussion at hand

Roshone was partially responsible. Elhokar, out of embarrassment, delayed their release. It was that which led to their deaths.

Agreed, but Elhokar's casual disregard for darkeyes isn't tempered by a genial nature towards all human beings either that Shallan and Adolin have.

Agreed on the other points

I guess I have an issue with people hating on Moash or hating on any character. I believe this stems from their lack of seeing things from the character's perspective. These characters (Moash/Elhokar/Dalinar/Shallan etc) may have a bias or tainted view about certain things. We might not agree with these views but these views are there because of this character's past experiences. That very fact is what makes them a realistic and amazing character.

After all, put yourself in the character's shoes... if you had to experience what they did, isn't it possible that you might react the way that they did? Isn't that what we as a reader like to see in characters - depth, motivation and a certain degree of realism despite the fantastical element of the world they are in.

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Just now, Kaladin-Stormblessed said:

I guess I have an issue with people hating on Moash or hating on any character. I believe this stems from their lack of seeing things from the character's perspective. These characters (Moash/Elhokar/Dalinar/Shallan etc) may have a bias or tainted view about certain things. We might not agree with these views but these views are there because of this character's past experiences. That very fact is what makes them a realistic and amazing character.

After all, put yourself in the character's shoes... if you had to experience what they did, isn't it possible that you might react the way that they did? Isn't that what we as a reader like to see in characters - depth, motivation and a certain degree of realism despite the fantastical element of the world they are in.

I agree with every word you just said. 

11 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Most people just assume whoever's talking to them is a dude by default unless they specify they're a girl

That might be a guy thing, I’ve actually leaned more toward the opposite. Huh. 

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On 10/15/2019 at 9:41 PM, Kaladin-Stormblessed said:

I guess I have an issue with people hating on Moash or hating on any character. I believe this stems from their lack of seeing things from the character's perspective. These characters (Moash/Elhokar/Dalinar/Shallan etc) may have a bias or tainted view about certain things. We might not agree with these views but these views are there because of this character's past experiences. That very fact is what makes them a realistic and amazing character.

After all, put yourself in the character's shoes... if you had to experience what they did, isn't it possible that you might react the way that they did? Isn't that what we as a reader like to see in characters - depth, motivation and a certain degree of realism despite the fantastical element of the world they are in.

Exactly. Sometimes it feels like people reacted to the perceived ideal moral response rather than actual human response. Which is a damnation shame because that means they're missing a big chunk of what makes these books amazing* (though these reactions are  understandable given how powerful the moments of self-improvement were)

*As for that amazing part: an honest exploration of subjectivity

Edited by Honorless
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I always have trouble hating characters, honestly. I see redemption arcs and good points and realistic actions and reasons for what they do everywhere. I might not personally be on their side, but it rubs me the wrong way when people hate them for what they do. I get it, but I just appreciate the writing. There are characters in existence who are badly written, and those I can understand hating. 

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14 minutes ago, AonEne said:

I always have trouble hating characters, honestly. I see redemption arcs and good points and realistic actions and reasons for what they do everywhere. I might not personally be on their side, but it rubs me the wrong way when people hate them for what they do. I get it, but I just appreciate the writing. There are characters in existence who are badly written, and those I can understand hating. 

Agreed. Taravangian is probably my favorite character in the Cosmere because of the depth and contrast between his goals and his fears and pain, and his shifts in mental/emotional capacity. 

His goals are admirable and his methods are monstrous... 

Brandon is good at giving his characters compelling motivations and arcs. Even the ones that I find repulsive by their motivations, still have motivations that absolutely make sense from their perspectives and beliefs. 

Which, with Moash, is why I didn't even start to dislike him until the end of the book, and even then, will I disagree with his choice I can understand it. 

He's always felt like an outcast. He's always felt misunderstood, and punished, and powerless to change anything. And then he is offered acceptance and power, and a purpose that he hasn't felt since his fleeting time in Bridge Four... And all he has to do is kill a seemingly defenseless drunken vagrant, and sacrifice his name and identity and species. 

Sacrifice everything about who you were, to gain everything you've always thought you wanted. It's perfectly understandable... But those kinds of deals rarely work out to be what you want them to be. 

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Blind hatred of a character has never been something I agree with. In Moash's case, I have mixed feelings personally. I understand his desire, his need to go after Elhokar and to seek vengeance. The main thing I find issue with in Moash's character is his "respect" towards Kaladin. Kaladin is his direct superior and they both considered themselves to be friends. In WOR Moash directly disobeys an order from Kal and continues meeting with Graves for the assassination attempt of Elhokar. That, to me, demonstrates that he doesn't truly respect his captain's wishes. Even worse, not only did he not stop meeting with them, but he kept trying to convince Kaladin what he was doing was the right thing. It doesn't sit well with me.

14 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Sacrifice everything about who you were, to gain everything you've always thought you wanted. It's perfectly understandable... But those kinds of deals rarely work out to be what you want them to be. 

This is something I think is done really well with Moash that I can relate to a bit. Giving everything up, completely folding in the hope that you'll truly get what you want, I find this to be a really interesting dynamic and am looking forward to seeing where it goes in future books with Moash/Vyre. 

 

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So, I think there is one aspect of people disliking Moash that hasn't been tasked through enough. This is that he was great and then fell. How betrayal is there biggest reason I dislike him.

So I'll admit there are people in the world that have done far more bad then Moash. Odium, Sadeus, Amaram, and Tarivangian have all done worse things then Moash. The difference is we never really grew a bond with any of these characters. They each got maybe a couple chapters at most before we knew they weren't good people. Some we even knew right away. Moash was different. We saw him as a great guy for a book and a half. During this time we started to connect with him and see him as one of the good guys. The fact that he then turned around and became so evil made him much more easy to hate. 

I'm not saying that some people aren't hating on Moash just because it's popular, but here's another reason people have a problem with him.

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@Minimanmax1 Welcome to the boards! Have a upvote for joining in the conversation!

I think all the major points have pretty much been covered, except for one thing. In OB in chapter 48, in his internal monologue as he is working, he thinks to himself that "what happened isn't my fault" and "I can't be blamed", and he's happy just to have someone tell him what  to do. This echoes almost verbatim what Amaram tells Kaladin during their fight in ch 120 regarding Kaladin's squad being killed, and Odium tries to convince Dalinar of these things about himself in ch 118. I think that when a character says or thinks these kinds of thoughts, it's indicative of Odium's influence, or at the very least it is an effect of an Unmade that we have yet to identify. You could say they "gave him their pain", relinquishing their responsibility for their actions and accepting relief for them in return, all the while doing Odiums bidding. It's a classic deal with the devil situation. 

What this means for Moash, though, is that by the time we see him in the Elhokar scene, he wasn't completely in control of his own actions. Yes, he wanted to kill him, but Odium wanted him to kill him, too, and that was the only reason he was allowed to do so. I think that was his point of no return, where he fully committed himself to working for Odium.

Other people have mentioned it before, but Moash has always been presented as a parallel to Kaladin, where Kal ends up doing the right thing eventually, despite being given plenty of chances to take the easy road. Moash makes the opposite decisions. It reminds me vaguely of the same equal but opposite relationship of Neo and Agent Smith in the matrix movies. I suspect we will continue to see balanced gains in power between the the two before an eventual showdown when they are both max power. It will be awesome.B)

I don't hate Moash, because he's not a real person, but I see why people feel as strongly as they do. He betrayed Kal and bridge 4, then Team Radiant, then all of mankind, so it feels personal to the reader. The Elhokar chapter had built tension with the expectation of him saying the words, and we were denied that release, and that creates frustration. It's just evidence of Brandon's skill as a writer to be able to evoke those kinds of strong emotions.

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To add to what you said @Honorless - what do we even know of jezrien as a character? That he was like a divinity to humans. So? 

Now I'm not saying odiums the good guy in any of this. But just cuz you're opposed to him doesn't make you any better. At that point in the story jezrien is basically a drunk homeless guy who has the power to maybe do something but is wilfully, knowingly ignoring everything that's happening. Why is his death such a tragedy? Because he had a [redacted] life filled with torture? Boohoo. Moash had a crap life too. Why is jezrien's pain any worse? Because he had it for longer? Well he volunteered. Moash didn't volunteer to have his only family be killed. He didn't volunteer to be in the bridge crews. He was put there. He dealt with it anyway. 

Ultimately, there's pain on every side in that equation. The only reason we as an audience might think one more justified than the other is cuz we're told the story from the perspective of one side. 

But fundamentally, Moash acted in a very human way. As did jezrien. There's 7 books more of character development to go. For all we know, unwittingly the death of jezrien is the reason ultimately Odium falls (if that's even what needs to happen). So I don't get the hate at this stage. 
Not to mention, from a story perspective, if Moash didn't go down this road, it would be a worse story. If Elhokar lived there, if jezrien lived, if everyone just does what we think is the right thing to do, story would be over. And I imagine to this audience that is a much worse fate than a Moash that's just being human. 
If in those moments it was someone else, a random character we didn't know, would those moments really matter as much? 
Arguably, none of the events would've happened, if honour and cultivation had just been like - oh your planets destroyed. Boohoo. Not our problem. Or if all the shard bearers had just been like - yeah we have this cool plan that could kill adonalsium but I mean.. I've got to go check out that cool dragon band Saturday and then Sunday is Sabbath, and let's face it we want to get in early Monday to avoid the traffic so let's just pass on this whole killing adonalsium thing. But then we wouldn't have a story to read, and that would be the real tragedy:P

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To (mis)quote another one of Sanderson's great characters.  We don't make jokes about how much we hate Moash.  We make feints.  Unlike Ameram and to a greater degree Sadeas Moash's behavior and actions are somewhat sympathetic.  Many of us have at least a passing familiarity with that kind of hopeless twisted anger that leads to regrettable actions.  We see in Moash a lot of the things we hate most about ourselves and so we hit him with as much vitriol as possible in order to distance ourselves from him.  That being said.  I stand by my kill Moash over and over again for eternity posts.  That guy is the worst.  Even if he is just a little too much like me.

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49 minutes ago, ND103 said:

Ultimately, there's pain on every side in that equation. The only reason we as an audience might think one more justified than the other is cuz we're told the story from the perspective of one side. 

While I agree with the basic meaning of what you're saying, there is one point here that I have to disagree with. 

We have only seen "one side" but it's not the side your post implies to me. 

This conflict is not human versus singer. Odium wishes to frame it that way... But Venli and Rlain show that's not the case. 

The conflict is Odium vs everyone. Moash has, for the time being at least, sided with the Fused and Odium. That is "The wrong side."

As I've said in every one of the Odium vs. Passion debates, this is a story with massive themes of prejudice and oppression. Yes there is guilt and pain across the board, and a cloudy and fraught history that we don't fully understand... But a Shard that is Hatred attempting to present itself as something more palatable, even to the point of partially believing that lie, is absolutely fitting of the themes. 

The Fused exist for vengeance. They exist because of the hatred that they have accepted. Their only goal is to end humanity, or subjugate them, and then "finally rest" and leave the world to their descendants.

If their descendants turn on them, do you think they will walk away? Or will their hatred win out? I think the answer there is clear.

Moash has sided with the Fused, and yes he is not in his right mind... But that does not negate his responsibility for his actions. He is and always has been driven by his anger over everything else. I will wait to see what choices he makes in the future, when the people that he chose to believe were better than humanity begin to turn against the party he's joined. But for the time being... He's on the wrong side. 

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@Nellac, thank you! That's probably a very important part of why Moash is so heavily disliked that I overlooked. He is the only character we see in the Stormlight Archives actually becoming worse (arguably aside from Shallan, part of why people are annoyed with her post-WoR).

@Solant, Dai-Gonarthis? Huh, that is a really great theory! The Unmade and their effects are presented from the perspective of the native Rosharans, to whom these have become everyday events, like with the Alethi Thrill... and with such a human thing to think, in a vulnerable moment when a person would want to believe what the Unmade is saying... yup, it could be Dai-Gonarthis the Black Fisher "holding people's sorrows and consuming it". It's suitably Odium-y and his theme of Void and "Give me your pain!"

@Karger, completely agree. With Sadeas especially, there is a disconnect between the reader and the character because we, in real life, wouldn't have faced anything on that scale, his personality doesn't really facilitate such understanding either.

It's the same in many superhero stories. People don't hate the final villain. In fact, the final villain seems kinda cool. The first few villains though... they fall within the scale of what we can feasibly grasp and feel a connection too. It reminds me of 'Worm' by John C. McCrae, where the final villain who goes on a rampage of world destruction doesn't seem as evil as the first villain we see, simply because the latter's actions can be comprehended within our own scale of evil.

You are right, it would be easy to have an understanding of where Moash is coming from because people would have experienced getting angry & feeling vengeful and then feeling disturbed as, instead of Moash dealing with it, we get to see him in both WoR and Oathbringer going completely off the rails. It might seem to be a mirror but only reflecting the ugly side of oneself.

@ND103, indeed, the side we choose doesn't define us (just ask Venli!)

And yes, the plot gets what it needs. If none of the bad things happened, the story itself would be worse off for it.

As for the Moash haters: it's the internet and people tend to go crazy with the anonymity and start cussing at people, which they wouldn't do face-to-face (hopefully). 

Edited by Honorless
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@Calderis to be fair, I only mentioned that we see one side. I didn't mean to imply a binary. I also didn't mean to imply the conflict is human versus singer or Odium versus whoever really. Side was really not the best word to use there! 

What I did mean was to say we see one perspective on this character. The one according to which he is a force of legends. A herald, a king, a god even. Not the million other nuances to the character. Not the fact that before he was a Harald, he was a man. One possibly involved with the first planet destruction event caused by his species. Certainly, in story we don't focus much on the fact that he's abandoned humanity, and just a drunk at this point in time. So his death, to me, just feels like another thing that happened. I don't feel any particular sense of tragedy at his death. I felt much more emotion at the death of eshonai than I did jezrien. 

As to this being Odium v everyone else and Odium being the 'wrong side'. 

To quote Chicago's finest wizard, Harry Dresden - we can't all be equally right. But we can all be equally wrong. 

Just benefit you or someone that is 'wrong' doesn't mean you're right. It's not really a binary. It's a fluid spectrum. You can be right about one thing and wrong about so many others. You can be wrong about one thing and so very right about so many others. At best odiums side is the 'more' wrong one. But is the other side entirely free of any blame, any responsibility? Short answer is we don't know. But I err on the side of probably some blame. 

Hatred and vengeance are ugly themes. We tend to think poorly of one who admittedly hates someone or something. We tend to think poorly of someone just cuz their motives were vengeance. Yet I am absolutely certain that we all feel like that at different points. Hatred much like every other emotion is simply a part of us. That doesn't make it wrong. Acting on your hatred itself also isn't wrong per se. For me it's too simple to say - that person is acting purely on hatred and out of a desire for vengeance so he must be wrong. That's too simplistic. 

Again not to say Odium is right. Just that opposing him doesn't by itself make you right either. Moash is perhaps on a wrong side. But the way I see it, the other side had four and a half thousand years to make their case and given what they came up with, they're really not better. It's really much more nuanced than that. 

Of course I imagine their side will win. Of course I would celebrate it if they did. Of course that's the side I would want to be on if I lived in that setting and was born human. But if I'm being entirely honest, I would know that I was fighting not out of some righteousness trip or some particular feeling of Odium is wrong and I'm right. I'd just be fighting on that side cuz it's us versus them and that's the us I was born to. 

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@ND103 I get not feeling anything for Jezrien. To be fair, I don't either. I was still more upset by Moash killing him than Elhokar.

Elhokar, Moash had actual reasons to feel something for. Jezrien... He wasn't even sure he was killing the right man. 

Quote

“Have you seen me?” the man asked as Moash knelt.
“No,” Moash said, then rammed the strange golden knife into the man’s stomach. The man took it with a quiet grunt, smiled a silly smile, then closed his eyes.
“Were you really one of them?” Moash asked. “Herald of the Almighty?”
“Was, was, was…” The man started to tremble violently, his eyes opening wide. “Was … no. No, what is this death? What is this death!”

"were you really one of them?" 

You can blame his mindset, and blame Odium and all of it. But he's still killing what appears to be a homeless drunk out of blind faith. 

Jezrien's "guilt" has just just as many mitigating factors as Moash. Yes he signed up for the Oathpact... But none of the Heralds knew what they were signing up for. Thousands of years of torture, all of them mad. All already broken to some extent by the time they abandoned the Oathpact in the first place. 

I agree hatred can be used for good. It all depends on how it's directed. Hatred at injustice and broken systems has been a motivating factor in many positive changes in history. 

But the Fused hate people with no memory of who they were. No memory of a time that parshmen were capable of caring for themselves at all. It would be like hating me for something that my ancestors from 5000 years ago did. Not only do I have no knowledge of what happened, I don't know how I'm connected to those people. 

And Moash has transferred his hatred of lighteyes to humanity as a whole. 

That's not directed hatred. That's not useful, or positive. That's just blind irrational anger. 

So yeah... There's my issues with Moash. 

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I mean.. that's fair. I get it.. and I respect it. He is not an easy person to like. Certainly if I went out to a pub quiz with him, I would end up in fights cuz that one just Is that controversial. So it's fair if you've got issues with him. Heck I do too. But ultimately, he's human too. So I for one forgive him. You don't, fair play! 

 

I just find it hard to think in terms of right and wrong in this context. They're all right and they're all wrong to an extent. We all are I should say. I imagine even Odium had (possibly still has) some redeeming quality somewhere... So I just think in terms of who would I root for realistically. Who might I want to have a pint with (and I can't stress this enough, doesn't mean I'd vote for them in a democracy). Moash- yeah go on then. Adolin - yeah.. Kal- nah... Szeth - Nope. Jasnah - yeah as long as it's just the one. Eshonai- yeah I could. Venli - for sure. Dalinar - maybe before the days of gav's conquest, but not really anymore. Don't like what you've done with the place... 

And then I see what happens to them. Did they survive the apocalypse. They doing ok? Have they done something stupid again? Has it been the last straw?

Most of them are wrong in some capacity. As are most of the people I have a drink with irl. But you know. It's my peeps! 

 

Edit - Sorry for double posting. Internet acting weird. Can't figure out how to delete the copy either. 

Edited by ND103
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I mean.. that's fair. I get it.. and I respect it. He is not an easy person to like. Certainly if I went out to a pub quiz with him, I would end up in fights cuz that one just Is that controversial. So it's fair if you've got issues with him. Heck I do too. But ultimately, he's human too. So I for one forgive him. You don't, fair play! 

 

I just find it hard to think in terms of right and wrong in this context. They're all right and they're all wrong to an extent. We all are I should say. I imagine even Odium had (possibly still has) some redeeming quality somewhere... So I just think in terms of who would I root for realistically. Who might I want to have a pint with (and I can't stress this enough, doesn't mean I'd vote for them in a democracy). Moash- yeah go on then. Adolin - yeah.. Kal- nah... Szeth - Nope. Jasnah - yeah as long as it's just the one. Eshonai- yeah I could. Venli - for sure. Dalinar - maybe before the days of gav's conquest, but not really anymore. Don't like what you've done with the place... 

And then I see what happens to them. Did they survive the apocalypse. They doing ok? Have they done something stupid again? Has it been the last straw?

Most of them are wrong in some capacity. As are most of the people I have a drink with irl. But you know. It's my peeps! 

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I never liked Moash. Since he started getting speaking parts in the narrative he's come across at best as swarmy. He's the type of person that always appeals to a personal relationship to get what they want from a person but the debt only goes one way. He betrayed the one person that ever accepted him despite the fact that he's a self confessed cremhole, not once or twice either, multiple times. It's even worse in OB because you can just see him almost turning a corner only to turn his back on a change for the better. 

But you know what irks me about him almost as much as the constant betrayal? Moash's stupidity. He knows the name of the guy who Was ultimately responsible for getting his grandparents killed. He guarded Elkohar enough to know that he was pretty and stupid, a bad king, but he wasn't malicious. Yes he put Moash's grands in jail and forgot about them, but anyone who spent 5min in his company knew how easily one could manipulate him. So knowing this, why is he focusing on the dupe instead of the mwstermind?  Killing Roshone gets his revenge along with, if not help then at least tacit approval from his commander. Nobody would bat an eyebrow at anything he did to that petty lordling and after he got his shardset, he outranked Roshone too.  He just couldn't be smart about his vengence.

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The issues with hating Moash as a person all depend on whether you believe in his agency. 

He was able to kill Jezrien because he could think of it as just following orders; the element of choice is passed to Odium, as is the blame. But only because Moash perceived it that way. As for his exacting revenge on Elhokar, he focused the king's agency, having accepted the idea that forgetting about, and consequently "murdering" his family [causing deaths by a lack of action], was entirely intentional. Now, the point has been raised that Elhokar treated the lives of an elderly darkeyed couple as inconsequential, which is why he ended up forgetting about them. However, a measure of that is due to his upbringing and position* in society - rather than, say, a conscious conclusion that darkeyes are lesser beings than himself and a decision to regard them accordingly.

I think the 'point of no return' here was when Moash killed Elhokar because, after that, he surrendered his identity and his past to Odium; the option always remains to escape his thrall, but to do so, you must reclaim all of your pain, your hames, your faults. (Meaning no just those from before submitting, but after as well. Remember the journey of the Wandersail, how murders committed - even under the deception of the emperor's will - fell on those who'd carried them out, once the excuses were dispelled.)

Spoiler

*these traits are ingrained in Elhokar's identity by everyone and everything he interacted with in his younger years... Vorinism itself seems to be based on the lighteyes-darkeyes class distinction; thus, the millions upon millions of people who have ever actively supported or passively lived under Vorin-based governance take partial responsibility for the perpetuation of these beliefs, and by extension, Elhokar's personality, his actions, Moash's reactions, Kaladin's progression, Moash's opportunity for and seizure of revenge, his turn towards accepting Odium's perspective, his willingness to carry out Odium's orders, and in due course, Jezrien's demise. Thanks a lot, world.

 

Edited by Brightness Warrior
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