Enough with the Moash thing

[Bigmikey357]

2 hours ago, AonEne said:

3 hours ago, Vindo said:

...then salutes Kaladin with the bridge four salute... 

I’m not even going to touch the rest of your post, but this - why the heck does everyone keep saying that like it makes everything worse? “He killed Elhokar and that sucked, BUT THEN HE SALUTED KALADIN AHHHHHHHHHHH” I don’t get it. 

Because that salute represents the ultimate F-U to Kaladin, a dude who by his actions bettered his life by about 100 fold before he screws it up. Moash constantly goes to the precipice of good guy and , knowing the right thing to do, goes the opposite way every stinkin time. I can agree that attacking someone verbally for not hating Moash is a terrible attitude, I personally hate his guys. Don't get me wrong, I hate Amaram and Sadeas too. It's the betrayal aspect that always gets me.

[AonEne]

43 minutes ago, Brightness Warrior said:

The latter.

It's difficult to converse in a dignified manner with the 'general populous' about; should we share a pm for the sake of civilized discussion?

Why not. 

[Ixthos]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

Agreed. Everyone takes that like Moash was saying a big "storm you." I see it differently.

Moash has at that moment achieved exactly what he set out to do. He fully believes that that is possible because of the training that Kaladin gave him. As much as he's made his mistakes, he respects Kal, and still thinks of him as a friend (as Kaladin does in return, hence what he says when he punches Roshone).

That salute wasn't an insult, as much as it may have felt like a gut punch to Kal and the reader on that moment. It was a genuine sign of thanks and respect. 

Kal was sitting on the ground paralyzed by his internal conflict. If Moash had wanted to, he could have struck at Kal, but he didn't. He made his salute, and he walked away. 

I myself don't hate Moash, I actually mainly feel pity for him, but I hate a lot of what he did, and I hate that he saluted Kaladin precisely for the very reason you just said.

 

"Thanks buddy! I couldn't have done this without you!" And Moash means it. Thank you Kaladin, your training helped me kill this man.

[Calderis]

5 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

I myself don't hate Moash, I actually mainly feel pity for him, but I hate a lot of what he did, and I hate that he saluted Kaladin precisely for the very reason you just said.

"Thanks buddy! I couldn't have done this without you!" And Moash means it. Thank you Kaladin, your training helped me kill this man.

And that's fair. And I'm sure from Kaladin's perspective it seemed that way. 

As I said though. I don't think there was anything there that wasn't genuine on Moash's part. 

Disliking him for his motivations and actions accurately doesn't bother me at all... But like with the "kicking a baby" thing, it bothers me when it's twisted into something more intentional and worse to facilitate an already held opinion. 

[Aon Tia]

11 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

I myself don't hate Moash, I actually mainly feel pity for him, but I hate a lot of what he did, and I hate that he saluted Kaladin precisely for the very reason you just said.

 

"Thanks buddy! I couldn't have done this without you!" And Moash means it. Thank you Kaladin, your training helped me kill this man.

Your training helped me kill this man you are trying to protect, you fought with me to protect. 

Yup Moash is really In a dark place right now it is almost sad. He is a classic example of how an eye for an eye is a terrible idea. 

I can’t remember but I think he says that killing elhokar did not fill the void.. did he ?

but he just found himself going down that road and he thinks he can’t turn back anyway so I might as well do this too and that and that. He sounds like he is in depression much like kaladin was. Except kaladin blames himself whereas Moash is giving up his pain and guilt to odium. 

Almost anyone in bridge 4 could have gone down that road, kaladin almost did himself. 

 

Edited October 15, 2019 by The traveller

[Winds Alight]

5 minutes ago, The traveller said:

I can’t remember but I think he says that killing elhokar did not fill the void.. did he ?

Yup. Don't remember the exact wording but all this petty revenge thing didn't make him feel better at all.

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, The traveller said:

I can’t remember but I think he says that killing elhokar did not fill the void.. did he ?

He did. Which is fairly typical of successful vengeance. 

A moment of satisfaction, followed by a return to loss with no more object of hatred to blame for the source of your pain. 

Which I've brought up a few times in recent threads about Dalinar. 

[Aon Tia]

7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

But like with the "kicking a baby" thing, it bothers me when it's twisted into something more intentional and worse to facilitate an already held opinion. 

Ok may be. I guess I can see it from your point of view too. He did not mean to hurt the child, I think he hardly noticed that there was a child in the way. 

He was under the influence of odium I guess and was consumed with hatred, just really wanted to kill elhokar before he became radiant. I guess Moash for sure would have thought this guy, this guy does not deserve to be radiant. Let me just stop it right here. 

[Aon Tia]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

He did. Which is fairly typical of successful vengeance. 

A moment of satisfaction, followed by a return to loss with no more object of hatred to blame for the source of your pain. 

Which I've brought up a few times in recent threads about Dalinar. 

Yes at times reading his povs are difficult because they are really dark. Not for his actions but his mental space right now is a very sad place to be. He does not think that anything can go right so he is just going with the flow. Whatever you say, kill a god, why not, after what I did to kaladin, how could killing a god condemn me more? 

People also think that there is going to be a big fight between kaladin and Moash, but I am not convinced that Moash or kaladin either can, when it would really come to down to it, I don’t think either can kill the other. 

I think they still love ( brotherly love) each other too much. 

I cant remember any instance where Moash disrespected kaladin. Not in any of his thoughts even. Just that b4 salute but I guess even that was not done by Moash to mock him or disrespect him at all. 

We react to it that way because it is a knife in the heart of kaladin, as kaladin feels it. 

[Calderis]

4 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Yes at times reading his povs are difficult because they are really dark. Not for his actions but his mental space right now is a very sad place to be. He does not think that anything can go right so he is just going with the flow. Whatever you say, kill a god, why not, after what I did to kaladin, how could killing a god condemn me more? 

People also think that there is going to be a big fight between kaladin and Moash, but I am not convinced that Moash or kaladin either can, when it would really come to down to it, I don’t think either can kill the other. 

I think they still love ( brotherly love) each other too much. 

I cant remember any instance where Moash disrespected kaladin. Not in any of his thoughts even. Just that b4 salute but I guess even that was not done by Moash to mock him or disrespect him at all. 

We react to it that way because it is a knife in the heart of kaladin, as kaladin feels it. 

Agreed. Even when he almost killed Kal, he was horrified. It was an accident due to his unfamiliarity with plate, and then seeing him with a crush rib cage, and bleeding profusely in a state that seemed like he'd surely die (and would have if he hadn't restored the bond) he moved in to end his suffering. 

His motivations are understandable, even if they're misguided. 

As I've said, I have my own issues with Moash. But I do feel a need to defend him at times for what I see as mischaracterizations. 

[StanLemon]

I myself am sick of the whole hate on Moash, he is by far the most tortured and least evil of of the antagonists. People who hate on him ignore major aspects of his character development and the constant betrayal Moash felt from his perspective. It's emotion and hatred without thought, one could say that the hate Moash crowd are under Odium's thrall.

[Aon Tia]

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

one could say that the hate Moash crowd are under Odium's thrall

good one..

[Honorless]

Thank you, all of you @Calderis, @The traveller, @Quantus, @ND103, @Firerust, @Winds Alight, @ILuvHats, @TheWadehart, @AonEne, @Child of Hodor, @Rushu42, @Vindo, @Bigmikey357, @Ixthos, @StanLemon for your opinions.

Actual discussion of his character, his PoV chapters and motivations is exactly what was needed rather than more #F**kMoash. Hopefully, discussions like this would help against the constant vilification of the character and harassment of those who speak in his defense.

 

Personally, for me Moash was always and still is, a tragic character. Even if going forwards he meets an ignoble end like Amaram, I'll still remember him as the man whose family got murdered, who then got sold into slavery (specifically the sheer brutality of the Bridgecrews), went out for revenge, ended of hurting the one man with whom he has any sort of positive relationship at all.

 

I detested Elhokar. Yup, I agree that he was trying to change. But as (I'm so sorry, I forgot who... was it you, AonEne? Calderis?) pointed out, he did it not out of remorse for his past actions, but out of self-pity. He felt like he was a bad king, that no one looked up to him. Seeking to better yourself is hardly a bad thing, in fact it is commendable, and being selfish is just human nature. But he had gotten Moash's grandparents thrown into prison where they died, then he sent the lighteyes who was his advisor on the matter to a remote village out of embarrassment (this lighteyes would go on to get Tien killed, out of sheer pettiness, all because a doctor chose to save him instead of his son, aka basic triage!), Dalinar, Navani and Adolin have all noted that the former two end up doing more ruling than him. When Amaram was accused by Kaladin of past wrongdoings, he IMMEDIATELY ordered his EXECUTION, this was after Kaladin had jumped in to SAVE his cousins Adolin & Renarin. Adolin had to spend a significant amount of time in prison in solidarity before Elhokar had cooled off. He later admitted that he resented Kaladin for how he is perceived as a hero.

When Elhokar began to speak the Words, I was mortified. When he got stabbed I was... well that moment's an emotional mess. He could've become a better person but I'd have hated him throughout that. 

 

As for his killing of Jezrien... as many have pointed out already, his headspace was a painful place to be at that time. He was desperate for any direction. Before that, in his chapter when he met Sah and his group, as well as the one where the lighteyes who was still trying to rule: these were both one the most poignant chapters I have read. He thought that the Parshendi were supposed to be better than humanity, his punishment of hard labour didn't even compare to the Bridgeruns

I wonder how much he knew when he stabbed Jezrien. We know he came to know of humanity's status as refugees and eventual conquerors of Roshar due to his reactions in the Singer camp but how much did he know of the Heralds? He may very well have thought of them as gods who abandoned humanity and  he definitely would have had reason to think of them as gods who committed many atrocities against the Singers before and during the Desolations

 

@AonEne, wow. You responded in a civil manner to someone who sent you a caricature of you getting hit by a train! #Respect

Edited February 15, 2020 by Honorless
removed two mentions

[Aon Tia]

42 minutes ago, Honorless said:

I wonder how much he knew when he stabbed Jezrien. We know he came to know of humanity's status as refugees and eventual conquerors of Roshar due to his reactions in the Singer camp but how much did he know of the Heralds? He may very well have thought of them as gods who abandoned humanity and  he definitely would have had reason to think of them as gods who committed many atrocities against the Singers before and during the Desolations

Leshvi does tell him about the desolations and let me tell you why we fight. So we can assume that he knows a lot. 

And may be now he genuinely believes that he is fighting for the right side, the suppressed.

[Honorless]

1 minute ago, The traveller said:

Leshvi does tell him about the desolations and let me tell you why we fight. So we can assume that he knows a lot. 

And may be now he genuinely believes that he is fighting for the right side, the suppressed.

Thank you! I haven't had the chance to reread Oathbringer yet. But I thought he was definitely told more than simply "there's your god. go kill it" 

Was it in the chapter "An Ancient Singer's Name"?

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Was it in the chapter "An Ancient Singer's Name"?

Yes. 

Quote

She cocked her head. A cool wind played with her clothing. “And are you not angered that we took your Shards?”
“They were first given me by a man I betrayed. I … don’t deserve them.”
No. Not you. It’s not your fault.
“You aren’t angry that we conquer you?”
“No.”
“Then what does anger you? What is your passionate fury, Moash, the man with an ancient singer’s name?”
Yes, it was there. Still burning. Deep down.
Storm it, Kaladin had been protecting a murderer.
“Vengeance,” he whispered.
“Yes, I understand.” She looked at him, smiling in what seemed to him a distinctly sinister way. “Do you know why we fight? Let me tell you.…”

 

[Honorless]

Woah, that was fast!

Thanks, Calderis!

Edited February 11, 2020 by Honorless
I just noticed today that I had used u/ instead of @

[Use the Falchion]

I don't think I hate Moash (in reality I probably dislike Venli just as much), but I agree with the sentiment earlier that since most of our antagonists are dead now, it's easier to funnel all that hate onto him - especially when his latest actions have been so shocking. It's also frustrating because I guess we see Kaladin and Dalinar (YMMV on Dalinar though) live through more or less the same things Moash is doing and become better people for it.

[+Child of Hodor]

15 hours ago, Calderis said:

I swear I am the only person in existence who read the Elhokar scene and in no way interpreted him as kicking a baby. 

He pushed the kid out of the way with his foot. The entire point being that his focus was to kill Elhokar and not harm the kid. 

This has always seemed like one of those "let's make things worse in memory" moments to me. 

Push kick is a thing. He's a well muscled tall man, the toddler is a toddler. He kicked him. Better than killing the kid for sure. 

[Honorless]

On 10/15/2019 at 6:39 PM, Child of Hodor said:

Push kick is a thing. He's a well muscled tall man, the toddler is a toddler. He kicked him. Better than killing the kid for sure. 

That video is irrelevant to the argument. Moash didn't intend to kick little Gavinor Kholin, Kaladin didn't interpret it as him kicking Elhokar's son either, just shoving him away.

Please don't try to explain the physics of getting kicked by a trained, muscular man. 

He shoved Gavinor away from Elhokar by his foot. Some cultures *really* frown upon that, including mine, so I was like "Hey, don't do that!", yeah, it's an ingrained thing that came to mind, even as he was shoving away a child from his father to kill the latter cleanly. Right in front of his child (and Kaladin, whom he then gave the sign of respect and friendship that they had forged in a truly hellish place). So, not arguing that what Moash did to little Gavinor wasn't horrible. It was. In fact, it was far more horrible. He didn't kick him. He orphaned him. Made extra sure that his father was dead by stabbing him again. That's brutal.

Still, he didn't, in fact, kick little Gavinor.

Edited October 23, 2019 by Honorless
Note: the relevant section from the book has already been mentioned by Calderis

[Kaladin-Stormblessed]

On 10/14/2019 at 3:24 PM, Honorless said:

Somewhere after finishing WoR, I remember going online and seeing a thread on Reddit about creating a new thread called r/stormmoash. I was vaguely amused, I most certainly did not expect it to become what it has become today.

Stormlight has had some less than True Hero™ characters. This complexity has always been part of what made me love the series. Some characters, like Shallan and Adolin as well as Elhokar are quite notably polarizing. I would count Dalinar in that group too post-Oathbringer. Some are more reviled: Sadeas, Amaram and Moash.

To my surprise, opinion on Kaladin too seems to be quite divisive, mostly due to the existence of the previous characters. He is pointed out as being more traditionally heroic, in contrast to the other characters, on top of being depressing. He seems typically moral than the more complicated history of Dalinar and less fun to read or interact with than Adolin and Shallan.

Dalinar: I feel already tired of explaining my views on him. There are two new threads where I have put forward my views on him "moral miscalculations of Mr Sanderson in Oathbringer" by Parallax and "Dalinar's Genocide" by Hakusho Slick.

Shallan and Adolin mostly come under heat because of their casual racism. Many seem to be thoroughly incensed by Adolin referring to Kaladin as "bridgeboy" as well as his comments on "the world changing" when "even darkeyes have access to Shardblade", the fact that he makes that comment about women having Shardblades also tends to draw frowns (although it is notable that he makes that comment in a positive manner, offering to teach Shallan how to properly wield a Shardblade)

One of the most quoted things for hating against Shallan is the same scene with Adolin, where he makes the comment mentioned above about Shallan's worry about seeming feminine while lugging about a Shardblade. She responds by thinking "thank you for comparing all women to peasants".... Oof. There is the infamous boots scene with Tyn where she bullies Kaladin into giving her his boots. Before that, once again with Tyn, they both try on something (I forget, eye drops? lens? I think it was the former) to darken their eye colour so they could move about freely. Shallan is very excited to shed lighteyes propriety. Then she suddenly gets really worried that there might exist something to make darkeyes seem lighteyes.

 

The point I'm trying to make by going on a spiel about these characters' various controversies is that these things are discussed. Negative opinions and accompanying evidence are examined, others' point of view seen as valid, arguments and counter-arguments are made, and so on.

I'm not saying Moash isn't discussed. I've seen the threads and topics. For example, the Vyre discussions.

I'm pointing that a disproportionately large amount of disliking Moash seems to have become popular simply due to trending.

Oh yes, what he did was not okay but we have characters like Sadeas, Amaram and Roshone right there beside him. Moash killed Elhokar at a pivotal moment. Elhokar did genuinely try to change and was close to swearing his Ideals. Moash succeeded where the others (except Roshone, RIP Tien) didn't.

But there are no threads or discussions simply dedicated to hating any of these other characters.

Moash, on the other hand has the aforementioned very famous hashtag on reddit, people simply drop in to say that they hate him with almost the same frequency that they say "I am Stick".

There are discussions dedicated to simply hating on Moash, such as the Anti Moash Gang. As well as various other such threads on who would kill Moash, etc. People casually drop "I hate Moash" or variations thereof, which get upvoted a lot. These comments often seem to be there for the sole purpose of getting upvotes. There has a become a cycle of *positivity* around the activity of dissing on this character.

Here's the meat of the matter though, the name Moash actually doesn't seem to generate as much hatred as Sadeas or Amaram. It creates amusement. He isn't hated nearly as much as he is associated with lighthearted online banter. People make a "dynamic entry" with a post about how they hate Moash, generally get positive feedback and that's it. This is especially popular on forum games. (I have to admit to having dropped Moash's name in a similar manner. To gauge receptiveness to disagreements against popular opinion during one of my first posts on this site. I had just come from reddit, I wanted to see how people would react. With burns or actual arguments. Thanks to AonEne for providing the latter.) People seem to find hating Moash funny.

I'm genuinely curious (read: very worried) if someone will come and comment "I hate Moash, lol" or "this guy is #Moashdidnothingwrong" or just go "storm Moash"

If you feel strongly about it, try to keep your comments restricted to Moash's actions against Elhokar and Kaladin.

In my opinion, Moash is the other side of the coin. He is what Kaladin could have potentially turned out to be if he had given in to his desire for vengeance/anger in WoR.

Moash wanted Elhokar dead despite the fact that he was not directly responsible for his parents' deaths. He didn't care that it was Roshone who was truly responsible. Like any person seeing red, he placed his blame in the person before him and then actively went about doing whatever he could to ensure that he exacted his revenge.

In all honesty, I do not have the strong hatred towards Moash as many other readers do. I do believe that characters such as Amaram, Roshone and Sadeas are insufferable too. However I believe Moash gets the most hate as the others are either dead or inconsequential to the story right now.

As for your point regarding Shallan, Dalinar and Adolin, I agree that they have character flaws that you have mentioned. However at the very least, the point that separates them from characters like Moash is that they are willing to change for the better. They are willing to work on their flaws, broaden their way of thinking, changing traditional stereotypes along the way and trying to become a better person.

As Dalinar says it best, "Sometimes a hypocrite is nothing more than a man in the process of changing"

[Honorless]

@Kaladin-Stormblessed thank you for presenting your opinions and contributing to the discussion at hand

Roshone was partially responsible. Elhokar, out of embarrassment, delayed their release. It was that which led to their deaths.

Agreed, but Elhokar's casual disregard for darkeyes isn't tempered by a genial nature towards all human beings either that Shallan and Adolin have.

Agreed on the other points

[AonEne]

6 hours ago, Honorless said:

You responded in a civil manner to someone who sent you a caricature of you getting hit by a train! #Respect

It wasn't specifically me, at least I don't think it was meant to be - that's just Ark being Ark. But thanks  

[Wyndlerunner]

I do dislike Moash, as a person. He's not the kind of person I can come to like. What I do  dislike is the constant harassment of those who don't share my opinion, by those who do. I don't view it as helpful, or necessary. It's just plain hateful and toxic. Sure there are people who dislike Moash, and their opinion is valid; but there are also people who like Moash, and their opinion is just as valid. After all, opinion is just that. Opinion.

Also @AonEne: Just Ark being Ark is no valid excuse for his behavior. As, in my experience/observation, 'Ark being Ark' is kind of mean/lacking in tact 

Edited October 15, 2019 by Wyndlerunner
Worded something incorrectly

[Calderis]

Let's not point fingers at was seemingly a very obvious joke gif not meant in a personal way. 

While I agree that attacking people who state they like a character you don't is ridiculous, there's a big difference between actively insulting someone and laughing at a funny little cartoon that basically amounts to "I don't understand why people like this character." 

There's a difference between someone being intentionally hurtful, and going out of your way to be offended... 

Edited October 15, 2019 by Calderis