True desolation timeline

[gloriousGlorfindel]

I was thinking about the timeline of the magic coming back in stormlight and I think we are missing something there, atleast I am. We have different events happening at different times which maybe related.

Firstly, the breaking of Taln. Do we have an approximate idea as to when this happened? I assumed this happened pretty close to the end of WoK when he makes an appearance, do we know for a fact from some WoB that it is (or isn't) so? (The fact that Hoid was right there leads more in the favor of yes)

Next, we have the Stormfather sending out visions to Gavilar (and maybe someone other people before that). How long has this been happening? Surely not since the Honor's death. I figured it was a more recent occurrence but I don't think there's anything in the books to confirm that except for the fact that we haven't had any bondsmiths since. But that is neither here nor there.

Then we have the first spren venturing over and forming bonds (Pattern and Ivory). The first I think was pattern since Shallan was eleven when her mother discovered that she was a radiant (and she probably already had shardblade then for all we know). Jasnah was also pretty close behind. More recently, we have Syl and the rest.

Then we have the mysteries surrounding Szeth. He was branded Truthless because he predicted the voidbringers would return? How the hell did he know that? This was before Gavilar's assassination, presumably before Pattern came over. 

Assuming the breaking of Taln didn't happen six years ago (which is very reasonable), I think it suffices to say that there was a different event that happened that triggered the spren coming back and it seemed to have happened around 8 years ago (I got that number right from my behind, that is my earliest estimate for when pattern got to bond Shallan). 

I have nothing to support this, but I think it was the same event that led the Stormfather to send his visions out to the "worthy". I think it also has to be related to the weakening of the Oathpact and breaking of Taln since it wasn't too far in the future (8-10 years compared to 4500 years he was in Damnation). (Time is weird in the spiritual realm after all :P)

Now, it could also be argued that the spren coming back was/is a gradual process slowly happening over the centuries but the proximity in time to the breaking of Taln seems to be too much of a coincidence. Easy way out is to say Brandon needed these events to happen for the plot, but Brandon is too good for that.

I think we'll find more answers in Szeth's book. For all we know, it could be one of Gavilar's antics when he did something he did not intend (in the process of acquiring voidlight) and started out the chain reaction that is the Stormlight archive (Book 4 prologue weirdness). That would ironically mean that the Sons of Honor were successful after all.

Anyway I have rambled on enough, what do you guys think?

 

 

[RShara]

I'd say that there are signs that a Herald is weakening/about to break, and this prompts the spren and the rest to start looking for allies and ramping up their fighting forces. Taravangian even figures out in his day of brilliance that the "Ancit of Stones finally begins to crack" or something along those lines. In the Starfalls vision, the Radiant that saves Dalinar mentions that he senses/sees signs that a Desolation is near.

I think maybe Szeth was starting to bond with a Radiant spren of some sort, reported it to the Stone Shamanate, and they didn't believe him, and declared him Truthless because of it.

Edited October 14, 2019 by RShara

[Aon Tia]

Yes I think the breaking of a herald should have reverberations throughout the three realms. I am sure that some people like hoid, taravangian on his extra smart day, and spren in CR or radiants through their bonded spren can feel those and know that a desolation is close. 

Also ulim somehow escaped so I don’t know may be that was also a trigger point

 

[Nnatel]

4 hours ago, gloriousGlorfindel said:

Firstly, the breaking of Taln. Do we have an approximate idea as to when this happened? I assumed this happened pretty close to the end of WoK when he makes an appearance, do we know for a fact from some WoB that it is (or isn't) so? (The fact that Hoid was right there leads more in the favor of yes)

I have found this WoB, which is quite uncertain but at least gives us some idea about the time:

Quote

Steeldancer

Taln, did he give in to the torture around the events of Way of Kings?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm going to have to look at the...So he should have given in to events in the current version of the book right before...Let's just say around Way of Kings. I'm not going to canonize that, though. In the version of Way of Kings that I wrote in 2002, he'd been around for a few years before he showed up in the narrative. And in the current outline, I don't have that be the case, but I haven't written his book yet. So for canon, but it's a Word of Brandon canon, I'm going to say, he's only been around for a couple of months before he shows up at the city.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

If it is really so, than other three things you pointed out must have happened before. I think RShara is right about the signs - that would explain why Stormfather started showing visions (I believe there was a WoB that Gavilar and Dalinar weren't the only ones - but to me it implies that he started visions not so long ago, not more than these 8-10 years ago). 

Actually, I have problem with Spren that decided on bonding - I don't feel like they would be so concerned about a possible desolation that would bring them into bonding unless we make assumptions that the ones that bonded were like Syl - decided to go against the rest. But both Shallan and Lift were watched /chosen by more spren so it is not true. 

4 hours ago, RShara said:

I think maybe Szeth was starting to bond with a Radiant spren of some sort, reported it to the Stone Shamanate, and they didn't believe him, and declared him Truthless because of it.

And, I just wanted to say I really like this theory. I don't know how I haven't thought about it but this totally makes sense. 

Edited October 14, 2019 by Nnatel

[Calderis]

Considering what Szeth says to Nightblood, it seems almost certain that he had attracted a spren. 

Quote

“I knew a voice like yours once, sword-nimi.”
The whispers?
“No. A single one, in my mind, when I was young.” Szeth shaded his eyes, looking across the glistening lake. “I hope things go better this time.”

 

[Aon Tia]

24 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Considering what Szeth says to Nightblood, it seems almost certain that he had attracted a spren. 

 

good point. May be that led him to think that desolation is coming

[gloriousGlorfindel]

@RShara, @The traveller

I agree that the herald breaking would have an effect in the cognitive realm, but 8 years seems a little much in my view. The spren must have been going bonkers near the last desolation when the heralds broke as soon as they were caught. 

I agree with @Nnatel in that it is a little weird. The Honor-spren aboard the ship in Shadesmar were pretty surprised to hear that there were radiants with a bondsmith. I guess one could argue that the signs are a little hard to interpret and only the "wisest" among the spren know what they see. Still it begs the question, why didn't they do it sooner? I'm sure the spren atleast weren't fooled into thinking that the enemy was done for good.

I'm not sure if that is all there is to it.

As for Szeth, I don't understand how bonding a spren would be indicative of a oncoming desolation? For all the past desolations, we've either not had radiants (before they were a thing), or always had them (even between desolations). There seems to be no basis to predict that the appearance of a spren is closely linked to a desolation. Only way this could work if there were more cosmere-aware people among the Shin who know what's up with the Heralds and what's going on in Shadesmar. But this is directly against what they did to Szeth, if they were indeed aware, there's no reason to brand him Truthless. 

One last possibility is that it could be backwards, in that whatever happened to trigger the spren comeback could have contributed to the breaking of Taln. I don't remember the exact quote from the Stormfather, but he does say that when one (or a few) slip through, it opens up a floodgate that is the desolation. And we do have Ulim.

[Karger]

On 10/14/2019 at 5:47 AM, Calderis said:

Considering what Szeth says to Nightblood, it seems almost certain that he had attracted a spren. 

Or perhaps the Shin have some other way of keeping track of the desolation.  They have the Honorblades and a lot of ancient knowledge.  I also have issues with a highspren the embodiment of justice sounding like Nightblood.

On 10/14/2019 at 6:28 PM, gloriousGlorfindel said:

 

As for Szeth, I don't understand how bonding a spren would be indicative of a oncoming desolation? For all the past desolations, we've either not had radiants (before they were a thing), or always had them (even between desolations). There seems to be no basis to predict that the appearance of a spren is closely linked to a desolation

According to Jasnah.  During the desolations the orders would recessive and influx of new members.

Edited October 17, 2019 by Karger

[+ILuvHats]

On 10/14/2019 at 5:28 PM, gloriousGlorfindel said:

I agree with @Nnatel in that it is a little weird. The Honor-spren aboard the ship in Shadesmar were pretty surprised to hear that there were radiants with a bondsmith. I guess one could argue that the signs are a little hard to interpret and only the "wisest" among the spren know what they see. Still it begs the question, why didn't they do it sooner? I'm sure the spren atleast weren't fooled into thinking that the enemy was done for good.

Thanks to the Recreance, almost all spren believe that knights radiant will inevitably break their oaths, so bonding is a death sentence. I’m sure that even knowing a desolation was coming and knowing they need to prepare, they tried to put off bonding to the last second. Others might have even refused to believe a desolation was stirring, just because they didn’t want to admit that it was necessary to bond again. 

You also have to remember that you can’t really compare different types of spren. Some of them, like the Cryptics, have long been committed to forming Nahel bonds once again. They whole-heartedly believe it will end in the Recreance once more, but as Pattern shows, they don’t seem particularly concerned with dying. The society of Cultivation spren also seem to have decided to begin bonding again. 

Other types of spren are much more resistant to bonding, though. Honor spren were, though that’s starting to change now that they see how successful Syl has been and now that the Stormfather himself has bonded. Based off of Timbre, lightspren have no desire to bond humans again, and while Spark did, he also hates humans in general for the Recreance. Ivory too was a deviant, and wasn’t supported by the other Inkspren in bonding Jasnah. Really, the only spren that appear to have no reservations about bonding are the Highspren since the Skybreakers didn’t follow through with the Recreance. 

Generally, considering what the spren think of the Recreance, it seems reasonable that they would be bonding so little so late despite a coming desolation.