Okay, Soulcasting question

[TheWadehart]

When Kaza is about to soulcast the rock "spears" around the island she says

“I can make a hole in them, Captain. It is easier to Soulcast an entire object, but I am no ordinary Soulcaster. I have begun to see the dark sky and the second sun, the creatures that lurk, hidden, around the cities of men.”

So my question is, "HOW?" Presumably the rock was a single sphere in the cognitive realm.   So how did she transform a hole in one

[Calderis]

She was a Savant. Greater perception of the Cognitive. Greater experience that grants greater perception of what is and isn't possible. Better control and power. 

How do you soulcast individual molecules of air? Where is the bead for that? That's how Jasnah made the stairs. 

The rules for this are greater than just Roshar, and we've seen in other places where something that is believed to be true can be bent or broken. 

The "beads" are a Cognitive construct. They represent the way that an object is perceived. Despite the fact that those objects seem to think, they are not alive. It's entirely possible that Kaza is able, through her state and experience, to recognize deeper parts of the construct instead of targeting the whole. 

As I said, we've seen similar distinctions drawn elsewhere. 

Edited October 13, 2019 by Calderis

[TheWadehart]

12 minutes ago, Calderis said:

 

The "beads" are a Cognitive construct. They represent the way that an object is perceived. Despite the fact that those objects seem to think, they are not alive. It's entirely possible that Kaza is able, through her state and experience, to recognize deeper parts of the construct instead of targeting the whole. 

Interesting,  so due to her savanthood she perceives the beads differently?  Where a newbie like Shallan sees and talks to the entire bead. Kaza might, say, perceive beads within the beads? Sort of like perceiving quarks within a proton?

Edited October 13, 2019 by TheWadehart
Autocorrect

[Calderis]

Just now, TheWadehart said:

Interesting,  so due to her savanthood she perceives the beads differently?  Where a newbie like Shallan sees and talks to the entire head. Kaza might, say, perceive beads within the beads? Sort of like perceiving quarks within a proton?

Pretty much. I mean... We have this WoB. 

Quote

Questioner

I wanted to ask whether cake has a soul? In Realmatic theory, stuff has souls. So, somebody turns wheat into flour, and flour has a soul. Do they come together when I bake the cake?

Brandon Sanderson

...So, this gets into some weird cosmere theory stuff. The level that if you are a student of philosophy, you'll recognize just wearing on the sleeve where this one came from. This is a mashup of Shinto beliefs and the theory of the forms by Plato, and kind of its own weird thing, that became Realmatic theory in the cosmere...

So, in the cosmere, things take on an Identity and a soul based on how people perceive them. It's human perception that is creating a lot of this, because the various powers that made the universe have this sort of desire to be sentient. And power left long too long in the cosmere starts thinking, that's just how it goes, and starts thinking of itself the way it is perceived. So, that cake, as soon as its created, the disparate parts of the souls start being thought of as a cake, and start gaining some traction as a cake. If you left that cake alone long enough, which wouldn't take too long for a cake because people don't look at cake and think "Oh, a bunch of wheat and flour." They think "Cake." That thing will start having a combined soul of the various bits of power, and the longer you leave it, the more permanency it's gonna have as a Spiritual artifact in the cosmere.

So, yes, cake has a soul.

Oathbringer Glasgow signing (Dec. 2, 2017)

That perception of the cake would create a single "bead" and a Cognitive representation of the cake. But all of the components of that cake should still exist. 

Quote

MoriWillow

If there only existed a single atom in the cosmere, would that atom have a Cognitive aspect?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it probably would.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 22, 2018)

A single atom would have no one to perceive. Nothing to build a Cognitive construct. But it would still exist. 

There is a hierarchy to the three realms. If something exists in the Physical, it has to have some kind of representation in both the Cognitive and Spiritual. 

Just because the Cognitive representation of particles and parts of greater objects aren't readily visible doesn't mean they don't exist. 

[Pathfinder]

Mistborn Era 2 spoilers

Spoiler

There is also the scene with Wax as he is a savant, where he "sees" in his steel sight the different parts of the bullet, and was able to selectively push on it. 

 

[TheWadehart]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Mistborn Era 2 spoilers

  Hide contents

There is also the scene with Wax as he is a savant, where he "sees" in his steel sight the different parts of the bullet, and was able to selectively push on it. 

 

Yeah, but is that really cognitive realm?   Or is that just a function of being twinborn?

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, TheWadehart said:

Yeah, but is that really cognitive realm?   Or is that just a function of being twinborn?

Sorry, to clarify, I am not saying he was seeing into the cognitive realm. I was saying he was able to realize that the bullet is not one thing, but multiple parts, and due to his savantism choose to affect them separately. So as Calderis was saying, Kaza could understand that the stone pillar was made of countless axi, and because she is a savant, choose to target them in order to make the desired shape. 

[stonedshaman]

@Calderis would this also imply that Jasnah is also a savant, or at the very least we'll on her way to being one?  

[mathwin]

5 minutes ago, stonedshaman said:

@Calderis would this also imply that Jasnah is also a savant, or at the very least we'll on her way to being one?  

Not necessarily.  Jasnah and Ivory made it clear that in proximity to Honor's perpendicularity her Soulcasting abilities were enhanced.  Specifically that she found Soulcasting much easier to perform, and that the range at which she could Soulcast was increased.  See her POV in Oathbringer Chapter 120.

[Pathfinder]

8 minutes ago, mathwin said:

Not necessarily.  Jasnah and Ivory made it clear that in proximity to Honor's perpendicularity her Soulcasting abilities were enhanced.  Specifically that she found Soulcasting much easier to perform, and that the range at which she could Soulcast was increased.  See her POV in Oathbringer Chapter 120.

If you pay close attention to the same moment, but from Renarin's PoV, Jasnah soulcasts multiple things in succession, and even soulcasts steps while running up them, then Renarin feels the surge from Dalinar bringing the realms together. So Jasnah is very skilled in soulcasting through many years of practice and focus. Being a radiant with a spren helps with the savantism not being as drastic, but it can still occur. 

 

Questioner 1

Do all Soulcasters risk turning into the element or is it only those using the device?

Brandon Sanderson

All Soulcasters have an affinity but the ones using the device are locked down much more than the Soulcasters who are Knights Radiant.

Questioner 1

So they are protected from being turned into--

Brandon Sanderson

Oh no they-- I wouldn't say protected... *clarificaiton* Protected is the wrong term but that event, the savanthood and how it affects them and things like that is much less pronounced if you are a [Knight].

Questioner 1

Or is that counteracted by the healing as well?

Brandon Sanderson

Healing doesn't have to do with it because-- in cosmere terms there's nothing wrong with your body, your spirit is actually drifting, and so it's not hurting you physically by what's happening with the magics. So it's not the healing but if you have an active bond with a spren it takes a little different path. Let's just say, in simple terms--

Questioner 1

You are not losing body parts to smoke.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you are not using body parts to smoke. 

Questioner 1

What timeframe does it happen for the normal Soulcasters then?

Brandon Sanderson

For normal Soulcasters? It takes-- I mean, you've seen it happening in the books. We are talking [about] a process of years even decades, depending on the person. It happens to some--

Questioner 2

Depending on how often they Soulcast?

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on how often they Soulcast, and it depends on the person. 

Oathbringer Leeds signing (Dec. 1, 2017) Edited October 15, 2019 by Pathfinder

[stonedshaman]

Good points.  It's been a while since I read Oathbringer.  I still feel that she could potentially be in her way to becoming a savant.  We do see her use soalcasting to do mundane things throughout, specifically in tWoK 

[Pathfinder]

For reference, this is the scene I am referring to. She accomplishes all this before Renarin feels the surge from Dalinar uniting the three realms

 

Oathbringer page 1138

Jasnah ducked the weapon, then shoved her hand against him, throwing him backwards. he crystallized in the air, slamming into the next man, who caught the transformation like a disease. He slammed into another man, who caught the transformation like a disease. He slammed into another man, knocking him back, as if the full force of Jasnah's shove had transferred to him. he crystallized a moment later. 

The sword vanished as she slapped her hand into the wall of a building behind her, and that wall puffed away into smoke, causing the roof to crash down, blocking the alley between buildings, where other soldiers had been approaching. 

She swept her hand upward, and air coalesced into stone, forming steps that she took - barely breaking her stride - to climb to the rooftop of the next building

Renarin gaped. That - How -

It will be....great....vast....wonderful! Glys said from within Renarin's heart. it will be beautiful, Renarin! Look!

A well blossomed inside of him. Power like he'd never before felt, and awesome, overwhelming strength. Stormlight unending. A source of it so vast, he was stunned

[stonedshaman]

Nice catch.  So she could be approaching savantism, I personally don't think she would be a savant yet.  I feel the crystal transfer part might be some of the transportation surge, like when she kills the bandits in Kharbranth.  Also as an aside, do we know if soulcaster KR savant would have the skin change, like the soulcaster in the Aimia interlude, or like the soulcasters Adolin watches make storm walls

[Pathfinder]

2 minutes ago, stonedshaman said:

Nice catch.  So she could be approaching savantism, I personally don't think she would be a savant yet.  I feel the crystal transfer part might be some of the transportation surge, like when she kills the bandits in Kharbranth.  Also as an aside, do we know if soulcaster KR savant would have the skin change, like the soulcaster in the Aimia interlude, or like the soulcasters Adolin watches make storm walls

The prior post I made includes a WoB that states Radiant soulcaster savantism manifests differently due to the help of the spren, in so far as you would not be losing limbs to smoke and such. 

[stonedshaman]

Storms! My bad, somehow I missed the WoB part of your post

[Pathfinder]

7 minutes ago, stonedshaman said:

Storms! My bad, somehow I missed the WoB part of your post

No problem. It was added in via an edit prior to you subsequently posting, but your page could have reflected the original post, which might be why you didn't see it originally. 

[RShara]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

For reference, this is the scene I am referring to. She accomplishes all this before Renarin feels the surge from Dalinar uniting the three realms

 

Oathbringer page 1138

Jasnah ducked the weapon, then shoved her hand against him, throwing him backwards. he crystallized in the air, slamming into the next man, who caught the transformation like a disease. He slammed into another man, who caught the transformation like a disease. He slammed into another man, knocking him back, as if the full force of Jasnah's shove had transferred to him. he crystallized a moment later. 

The sword vanished as she slapped her hand into the wall of a building behind her, and that wall puffed away into smoke, causing the roof to crash down, blocking the alley between buildings, where other soldiers had been approaching. 

She swept her hand upward, and air coalesced into stone, forming steps that she took - barely breaking her stride - to climb to the rooftop of the next building

Renarin gaped. That - How -

It will be....great....vast....wonderful! Glys said from within Renarin's heart. it will be beautiful, Renarin! Look!

A well blossomed inside of him. Power like he'd never before felt, and awesome, overwhelming strength. Stormlight unending. A source of it so vast, he was stunned

I read that as she felt the power/was affected by the power before Renarin did, and that was why she was doing all those things.

[Pathfinder]

2 minutes ago, RShara said:

I read that as she felt the power/was affected by the power before Renarin did, and that was why she was doing all those things.

They were side by side. What mechanic or reason would be that she would have been affected prior to him? Especially when there is enough time for her to do all those actions, and then he felt it. 

[RShara]

3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

They were side by side. What mechanic or reason would be that she would have been affected prior to him? Especially when there is enough time for her to do all those actions, and then he felt it. 

No, she had run ahead quite a bit. And she's vastly more experienced in using and recognizing her power.

Quote

Renarin fell to the last level of the city, the Low Ward. He stumbled to a stop there, his hand slipping from Jasnah’s. Soldiers marched through these streets, with eyes like embers.

“Jasnah!” he called. “Amaram’s soldiers changed sides. They serve Odium now! I saw it in vision!”

She ran right toward them.

“Jasnah!”

I mean, even Glys felt it before Renarin

Quote

It will be … great … vast … wonderful! Glys said from within Renarin’s heart. It will be beautiful, Renarin! Look!

A well blossomed inside of him. Power like he’d never before felt, an awesome, overwhelming strength. Stormlight unending. A source of it so vast, he was stunned.

 

Edited October 15, 2019 by RShara

[Pathfinder]

7 minutes ago, RShara said:

No, she had run ahead quite a bit. And she's vastly more experienced in using and recognizing her power.

 

Define "quite a bit". She runs up 10 feet? That is enough? Seriously? I am going to jump to the end of this and just say agree to disagree because I can see no way based on the information we have been given that Jasnah should gain it earlier than Renarin. The time line to me is clearly delineated. Jasnah took these actions, then Glys says:

"It will be ..... great .... vast .... wonderful!", "It will be beautiful, Renarin! Look!

Key words will be. As in has not taken place yet. Glys says that after she did all those soulcastings. The merging had not taken place yet from their perspective. Then Renarin feels the well blossom. 

 

Also they started with running hand in hand when they reached the area. Then she ran up to the soldiers, so he wasn't lagging behind for awhile. 

Edited October 15, 2019 by Pathfinder

[RShara]

Just now, Pathfinder said:

Define "quite a bit". She runs up 10 feet? That is enough? Seriously? I am going to jump to the end of this and just say agree to disagree because I can see no way based on the information we have been given that Jasnah should gain it earlier than Renarin. The time line to me is clearly delineated. Jasnah took these actions, then Glys says:

"It will be ..... great .... vast .... wonderful!"

Key words will be. As in has not taken place yet. Glys says that after she did all those soulcastings. Then Renarin feels the well blossom. 

Okay, agree to disagree

[mathwin]

This would be an excellent question for someone to ask during the next signing.  Was Jasnah able to do these things because she has become so practised or because of the perpendicularity?

[Pathfinder]

3 hours ago, mathwin said:

This would be an excellent question for someone to ask during the next signing.  Was Jasnah able to do these things because she has become so practised or because of the perpendicularity?

That would put things to rest. Though to add that what Glys said was predictive (as in seeing the future, not saying he just felt it), is because exactly what Glys said came to pass shortly after Glys said:

 

"It will be .... great ..... vast ..... wonderful! It will be beautiful, Renarin! Look!

 

so if we break down the sentence in order

 

It will be ... great .... vast .... wonderful!

 

Shortly after Renarin feels the well blossoming inside of him. Feeling awesome overwhelming strength enough that he wanted to dance. He then slowed at a gap in the wall, and looked through

 

It will be beautiful, Renarin! Look!

 

Looking as Glys told him to prior and seeing the column of light. Yet Glys stated both those events before Renarin felt them. Glys was in Renarin's heart, so there was no distance disparity with them. So had what Glys said not been predictive of an event that had not happened yet, then what should have happened (to me) is:

 

Renarin feels the blossoming well. "Renarin, it is great.... vast.... wonderful!". Renarin walks pass the gap in the wall, and Glys said "It is beautiful Renarin! Look!" and Renarin would then turn and notice what Glys did. 

 

But that is not what happened. This is what happened:

 

"It will be .... great ..... vast ..... wonderful! It will be beautiful, Renarin! Look!

 

Then Renarin felt the surge. Then Renarin walks a bit up to the gap, and sees the column of light. Glys stated two events, that had not occurred yet, that then occurred shortly after. To me it is the difference between me saying "You will feel happy. You will see a bird fly by, and it will be beautiful." Then you feel happy, and see a bird fly by that is beautiful. Versus you smiling and I say "You are happy", then a bird flies by and I say "look a bird. it is beautiful". 

Edited October 16, 2019 by Pathfinder