Why does Szeth say this?

[Kalaksbreath]

Why does Szeth say this? I've started a reread of WoK and in the prologue, Szeth says the couldn't heal from a shardblade to the arm but we obviously see Kaladin heal from a shardblade to the arm in WoR and In OB when Dalinar gives the honor blade to bridge 4 Teft says something like one of these idiots will probably cut one of their feet but that they could heal from it. So who is wrong.

 

Sorry, I don't have the exact quotes I don't have my physical copies I lent them out and am doing an audiobook.

Edited October 13, 2019 by Kalaksbreath

[RShara]

Arcanum is great for a lot of questions like this! An Honorblade can't heal Shardblade wounds, a Radiant can. So can a Squire, which most of Bridge 4 was, so they would be able to heal.

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Brandon Sanderson

A full-blown Radiant can heal almost anything (cut from a Shardblade included) because of the way the magic works--their soul is literally bonded to Investiture, and it suffuses them in such a way that even the soul is very resilient to damage.

Honorblades are what you'd consider a "prototype" for what eventually happened with Shardblades. An Honorblade can be used by anyone, without need for oaths, which makes them very dangerous--but since the bond isn't as deep, they are far less efficient. They use more Stormlight, for example, and can't heal to the extent that a Radiant can.

So the difference is not in the device that did the damage, but in the method using to heal. Over the course of the first two book, the reader should be able to subtly pick out differences from what Szeth says is possible (in more than just healing) and what Kaladin experiences.

General Reddit 2017 (Sept. 8, 2017)

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Questioner

Szeth says in the first Stormlight book that he can't heal from a Shardblade--

Brandon Sanderson

He can't.

Questioner

So when he got cut he couldn't heal that...

Brandon Sanderson

No. Not with his powers.

Questioner

Not from an Honorblade.

Brandon Sanderson

Not from an Honorblade.

Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015)

 

Edited October 13, 2019 by RShara

[Calderis]

Because he can't. The Honorblade isn't capable of the same level of healing as the Nahel bond. At the end of the prologue, he says it will take hours to heal his broken jaw. 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

A full-blown Radiant can heal almost anything (cut from a Shardblade included) because of the way the magic works--their soul is literally bonded to Investiture, and it suffuses them in such a way that even the soul is very resilient to damage.

Honorblades are what you'd consider a "prototype" for what eventually happened with Shardblades. An Honorblade can be used by anyone, without need for oaths, which makes them very dangerous--but since the bond isn't as deep, they are far less efficient. They use more Stormlight, for example, and can't heal to the extent that a Radiant can.

So the difference is not in the device that did the damage, but in the method using to heal. Over the course of the first two book, the reader should be able to subtly pick out differences from what Szeth says is possible (in more than just healing) and what Kaladin experiences.

General Reddit 2017 (Sept. 8, 2017)

 

[Kalaksbreath]

5 minutes ago, RShara said:

Arcanum is great for a lot of questions like this! An Honorblade can't heal Shardblade wounds, a Radiant can. So can a Squire, which most of Bridge 4 was, so they would be able to heal.

 

I know I’ve been meaning to get around to reading that.

[RShara]

Just now, Kalaksbreath said:

I know I’ve been meaning to get around to reading that.

It's not a book, Arcanum is the searchable Word of Brandon compilation website. You can search it to see if your question has been asked and answered or not.

[Calderis]

4 minutes ago, Kalaksbreath said:

I know I’ve been meaning to get around to reading that.

Wob.coppermind.net

[Kalaksbreath]

45 minutes ago, RShara said:

It's not a book, Arcanum is the searchable Word of Brandon compilation website. You can search it to see if your question has been asked and answered or not.

 

41 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Wob.coppermind.net

I know thank you I've just been pressed for time recently.

[Aon Tia]

So does that really mean that heralds were less powerful or you can say efficient than radiants? Or is it only true for people who are not heralds and hold honor blades? Remember Taln’s supernaturally quick reflexes 

[RShara]

3 minutes ago, The traveller said:

So does that really mean that heralds were less powerful or you can say efficient than radiants? Or is it only true for people who are not heralds and hold honor blades? Remember Taln’s supernaturally quick reflexes 

We don't know for sure, but I'm willing to bet it's only people who are not Heralds but are holding the Honorblades.

[Kalaksbreath]

@RShara Do the honor blades give you a stronger connection to the spiritual realm like how Szeth can hear the voices of the dead? 

[RShara]

Just now, Kalaksbreath said:

@RShara Do the honor blades give you a stronger connection to the spiritual realm like how Szeth can hear the voices of the dead? 

Not that I'm aware of. It's just Szeth being crazy, and being invested. https://wob.coppermind.net/adv_search/?query=szeth%2Bscreams

[Kalaksbreath]

1 minute ago, RShara said:

Not that I'm aware of. It's just Szeth being crazy, and being invested. https://wob.coppermind.net/adv_search/?query=szeth%2Bscreams

so was something similar happening with Dalinar and Rathalas.

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, Kalaksbreath said:

so was something similar happening with Dalinar and Rathalas.

It's the exact same phenomenon yes, and we've seen it elsewhere in the Cosmere too. 

[Kalaksbreath]

9 minutes ago, Calderis said:

It's the exact same phenomenon yes, and we've seen it elsewhere in the Cosmere too. 

Spoiler

like how Kelsier can communicate with insane people.

spoilers for secret history.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Kalaksbreath

[Calderis]

Just now, Kalaksbreath said:

  Hide contents

like how Kelsier can communicate with insane people.

spoilers of secret history.

Spoilers for Elantris. 

Spoiler

I was specifically speaking of Dilaf. 

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Dilaf’s voice turned reverently mournful. “I found her at the bottom, still alive. Still alive, despite the fall. And I burned her. She never stopped screaming. She screams still. I can hear her. She will scream until Elantris is gone.”

 

 

[Frustration]

If it would take Szeth hours to heal his jaw, why can he shrug off spears and arrows in seconds like when he attacks Dalinar on the shattered plains(sorry no quote) he just heals them almost instantly, is this authorial error or something I'm missing?

[Calderis]

5 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

If it would take Szeth hours to heal his jaw, why can he shrug off spears and arrows in seconds like when he attacks Dalinar on the shattered plains(sorry no quote) he just heals them almost instantly, is this authorial error or something I'm missing?

We actually don't see the wounds close if I remember correctly. That's not from his PoV. He accepts the strike in order to attack in return, and that would mean accepting the pain and the need to heal. 

I'll have to look the scenes up to be sure. It could be an error, or it could just be Szeth accepting the pain and risk. 

[Pathfinder]

Two things:

 

1. A long while back, being curious about stormlight efficacy, I attempted to go based on how often Szeth pulled in stormlight and used his abilities. This would not come to any concrete conclusions because the descriptors were frequently vague, but I felt it would be worth trying to get an idea. An unintended consequence was realizing over the course of the book, Szeth's stormlight usage got better. There are other quotes where earlier in the book it took longer to heal from broken bones, or injuries, that later in the book, or subsequent books he healed faster. I will need to dig to pull up the old thread so I will not have to pull up every quote again, but it was stark enough to be remarked on. 

 

the quote referenced earlier:

Way of Kings Page 33

Stormlight healing was far from instantaneous. It would be hours before he recovered

 

Words of Radiance page 374

He thrust his spear alongside that of the Blackthorn in an attempt to hit the assassin. The man didn't dodge. Both spears struck flesh, Dalinar's in the shoulder, Kaladin's in the side. The assassin spun, sweeping his Shardblade through the spears and cutting them in half, as if he didn't even care about the wounds. The assassin stood poised and confident in the center of the corridor. Stormlight swirled in the lashes in his now reddened clothing, healing his flesh. 

Words of Radiance page 1024

The assassin ripped free from the press of bodies, trailing blood from a couple of wounds. Those wounds closed as Adolin watched, the blood stopping.

 

2. Before Honor died, the honorblades were fueled directly by honor, and the Heralds had access to levels of investiture no radiant could attain. Both are WoB. That is why Heralds were more powerful than the radiants. 

 

copied the WoB from the other thread to save time digging

 

Steeldancer

The Heralds, back before Honor died, were they directly powered by Honor?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You’ll find out more about that, but the Shardblades [pretty sure he means Honorblades here] were pieces of Honor’s soul that he gave them and direct access to his essence.

Steeldancer

Like Vin and Elend?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, a little like that. That’s why Honorblades don’t work like Shardblades do, like Radiants do.

Steeldancer

The second part of the question is, what would happen if they were directly powered by Honor and they were holding Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO

Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017)

 

 

 

WindRunner88 (paraphrased)

So far during The Stormlight Archive we've seen that the spren bond appears to have some distinct advantages (i.e. armor, more efficient Stormlight consumption, access to a variety of weapons) over what Tanavast via the Oathpact provided the Heralds. With the exception of Nale, and the fact that the Heralds had no need for Stormlight, can you please tell me one way in which a Herald had a distinct advantage over a level 5 Radiant of their corresponding  order?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Rebirth. *pause* The Heralds had access to raw levels of power that no Radiant could obtain.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Kalaksbreath]

17 hours ago, Calderis said:

We actually don't see the wounds close if I remember correctly. That's not from his PoV. He accepts the strike in order to attack in return, and that would mean accepting the pain and the need to heal. 

I'll have to look the scenes up to be sure. It could be an error, or it could just be Szeth accepting the pain and risk. 

I agree with @Pathfinder it seems to me that Szeth has gotten more powerful with his use of stormlight over time is it possible that Szeth has become a savant. 

[Calderis]

2 hours ago, Kalaksbreath said:

I agree with @Pathfinder it seems to me that Szeth has gotten more powerful with his use of stormlight over time is it possible that Szeth has become a savant. 

Eh. If that were the case, he should still be, and there should be other signs. 

Savantism is... A permanent change to the Spiritual Aspect. Healing doesn't fix it. 

If the Honorblade made Szeth a Savant then not only should he still be one, but there should be drawbacks as well. 

[Pathfinder]

12 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Eh. If that were the case, he should still be, and there should be other signs. 

Savantism is... A permanent change to the Spiritual Aspect. Healing doesn't fix it. 

If the Honorblade made Szeth a Savant then not only should he still be one, but there should be drawbacks as well. 

As you mentioned with Kelsier, Savantism seems more a spectrum, where you could be on your way towards it, not be it yet but still exhibit some traits

Spoiler

(the WoB you quoted in another thread showing that Kelsier could affect different parts of a rod which was a hallmark of Wax's savantism, yet it stated Kelsier was not a savant yet).

If Szeth was on his way to savantism, allowing him to get a little more out of stormlight than when he first had the honorblade, how would we know now that he has a nahel bond which would be even more stormlight efficient?

Edited October 15, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Calderis]

@Pathfinder perhaps... I just find it odd.

Healing isn't even a "power" in the way we normally speak of it. It's just something that stormlight does, and the reason that the healing is lesser with the Honorblades is due to the depth of the bond with the blade. It's a matter of efficiency rather than ability.

Is he a Savant of holding stormlight?

The way Brandon has described the reason for the healing being worse with those rather than a Nahel bond is the reason I doubt.

One of the reasons I think part of the problem may be perspective, is that in the fight between Kaladin and Szeth, Kaladin thinks that Szeth heals from stab wounds from Syl. 

I don't think that means Szeth actually healed, but that without piercing a limb core or an organ that shardblade actually don't manage to do much damage (and why I think "shard arrows" would be fairly ineffective). I think that because Brandon says that an Honorblade can't heal the soul.

I have to question what is just a character not understanding what they see when it contradicts information that we have. If we had any of those scenes from Szeth's perspective, I'd be much more willing to accept a change. 

[Pathfinder]

15 hours ago, Calderis said:

@Pathfinder perhaps... I just find it odd.

Healing isn't even a "power" in the way we normally speak of it. It's just something that stormlight does, and the reason that the healing is lesser with the Honorblades is due to the depth of the bond with the blade. It's a matter of efficiency rather than ability.

I could dig up the WoB but didn't Sanderson say 

Spoiler

misting savantism is when you can get that little bit "extra" out of burning a metal?

Part of using stormlight is not just for surges, but also for healing. But further from that, Szeth does use more surges, more often, seemingly on less stormlight gradually over time. It is not just the healing. When I did that little experiment years ago, I tried to keep track of every time Szeth breathed in stormlight and what abilities he used before running out of stormlight. Now that is far from an exact science because the type of gemstone, the size of gemstone, and how infused the gemstones were was not stated but it still gave a picture that over the course of Way of Kings into Words of Radiance, Szeth was surgebinding faster, more frequently, and more varied. Now it could also be due to how much stormlight he held, but on two to three separate occasions he mentions about feeling filled to the brim with stormlight so much it was bursting from his skin, and each of those situations seemed he was able to do more than the prior scene filled to the brim. This is far from concrete but I do feel it is enough that it is noticeable. 

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Is he a Savant of holding stormlight?

So to answer this question after my above response, I believe his savantism is efficiency (though to clarify, I am saying he is on his way to becoming a savant. he is not there yet). He gets more healing, and surge uses per amount of stormlight than before. 

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The way Brandon has described the reason for the healing being worse with those rather than a Nahel bond is the reason I doubt.

The quote I beleive you are referring to, which you mentioned earlier is this?

 

Honorblades are what you'd consider a "prototype" for what eventually happened with Shardblades. An Honorblade can be used by anyone, without need for oaths, which makes them very dangerous--but since the bond isn't as deep, they are far less efficient. They use more Stormlight, for example, and can't heal to the extent that a Radiant can.

 

He is saying the bond with the honorblade is not as deep as the bond with a spren, so the stormlight is not as efficient. I am saying Szeth was on his way to becoming a savant (not one yet), which let him be slightly more efficient in stormlight use regarding the honorblade. Radiants would still be more efficient, and that is why when he gained a nahel bond, it is not noticeable. I am struggling to think of a proper analogy to illustrate. Actually I just thought of one! My friend grew up working in the local town garage his father worked at. He is a bit of a gear head as a hobby. He has a dodge charger that he tweaked to get it to go over the limits of what the computer allows because it would blow the engine. Because he knows what he is doing, he was also able to tweak some other parts so the engine would not blow going those speeds. So he is getting a little bit more out of the car than someone like me, without the know how (or near savantism) would get. But if he then hopped into a formula 1 race car, without making all those little tweaks, he will still go faster, and get more out of that race car than from that dodge charger, because the formula race car is built that way from the start, while the dodge charger he had to alter just to get that little bit more out of it. So what I am saying is that Szeth got a little bit more out of the honorblade, but he is not a savant yet, and being a radiant would still be more efficient. I understand that this might be too far fetched for you, and I respect that. But that is the line of reasoning I have at least. 

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One of the reasons I think part of the problem may be perspective, is that in the fight between Kaladin and Szeth, Kaladin thinks that Szeth heals from stab wounds from Syl.

I don't think that means Szeth actually healed, but that without piercing a limb core or an organ that shardblade actually don't manage to do much damage (and why I think "shard arrows" would be fairly ineffective). I think that because Brandon says that an Honorblade can't heal the soul. 

There may be some confusion. The scenes I referenced did not involve a shardblade wound to Szeth. In Way of Kings Dalinar and Kaladin stabbed him with normal spears, and Adolin saw him healing from it before his eyes. In Words of Radiance when Szeth was trying to kill Dalinar, it was a group of mundane people attacking and stabbing him, that he healed from. Then Kaladin full of stormlight shows up. So both instances are wounds from mundane weapons, not shardblade/sprenblade

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I have to question what is just a character not understanding what they see when it contradicts information that we have. If we had any of those scenes from Szeth's perspective, I'd be much more willing to accept a change. 

I can respect that, but as I said above, the scenes were wounds from mundane weapons, not shard weapons. So the information does not contradict what we know from WoB. WoB is that an honorblade cannot heal shard wounds. I am speaking of accelerated healing from mundane wounds, and increased efficiency in stormlight to surge use for an honorblade. 

Edited October 16, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Kalaksbreath]

 

 

 

 

On 10/15/2019 at 2:45 PM, Calderis said:

Savantism is... A permanent change to the Spiritual Aspect. Healing doesn't fix it. 

If the Honorblade made Szeth a Savant then not only should he still be one, but there should be drawbacks as well. 

He did also die had his soul was not fully fixed when Nale brought him back and as a result of that his savantisim my be different or gone though as I think on it, it seems unlikely but possible.