Scadrial vs Roshar.

[RShara]

13 minutes ago, Karger said:

The bulk of the final empire's troops in this scenario are underfed and not particularly loyal

The bulk of their troops would be the koloss, not the skaa.

[StanLemon]

 

6 hours ago, Karger said:

There would likely be a size and possibly a shape and coloration difference.

In what way? We never see something like that in the books

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Shards do a disproportionate damage to shardplate.

Yes but Shardplate has been shown to crack and break to normal weaponry without it being too over the top with how much damage it takes.

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The bulk of the final empire's troops in this scenario are underfed and not particularly loyal.  Roshar is a different matter.

As RShara said, the bulk is Koloss. Also the Garrison soldiers aren't likely to be underfed. One of the biggest reasons skaa joined was because it gave a better life and food

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Coheasion not soulcasting.

As was brought up well before you made this post. Doesn't change the obscene Stormlight requirements. Every Radiant who could do it would have to stop somewhere between 500-1,000 Koloss each, well beyond anything we've seen a Radiant do.

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There are only so many coinshots and lurchers and I don't expect them to last long against Windrunners.

 

Lurchers would have more trouble but not so much with Coinshots. They can break armor from a distance, have good mobility, and if the Windrunners try to do the Lash them up and let them fall trick the Coinshot can just drop a coin and Push to avoid hitting the ground.

Edited October 19, 2019 by StanLemon

[+Oltux72]

10 hours ago, Karger said:

There would likely be a size and possibly a shape and coloration difference.

That has opened another can of worms. How does a coppercloud look in the CR? Can they see at all? Unknown I'd say.

10 hours ago, Karger said:

The bulk of the final empire's troops in this scenario are underfed and not particularly loyal.  Roshar is a different matter.

They have a year to prepare. ANd Rosharan troops will find themselves in a totally alien environment.

10 hours ago, Karger said:

There are only so many coinshots and lurchers and I don't expect them to last long against Windrunners.

Hence they won't send them out in adverse conditions after the first few defeats. And the likelihood of having a Coinshot or Lurcher increases with the importance of the base you want to infiltrate.

12 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Ok this is going on the premise that the illusion is a disguise of an actual person. Why couldn't they carry weapons and body armor with them? Just use illusion to change the face like Shallan and Veil does?

Seekers. An Inquisitor has to use allomancy permanently. If he does not pulse, he is fake (or under copper - but they'd ask him to drop it).
And there is still the issue of speech.

12 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

but that what?

Limits (typo)

12 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

This was going on the premise of capturing a scadrian. Then as I said, treat the bondsmith as a rosetta stone. Take sentences that include a wide range of words and inflections. Then tell the bondsmith after touching the scadrian to say them. Write out the result. You now have a rule brick to learn what words means what to learn scadrian. 

Leaving out morphology, syntax, intonation ...
Now, a Cryptic may eventually learn all this. But that still gives you no way to impersonate an allomancer in the presence of Seekers or Mistborn.

12 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I thought the point was to cause metal lines so as to make the illusion seem real? What I understood from you and calderis is that if you have an illusion you can put your hand through, then steel sight would not pick up the train metals in an illusion, and see right through it. i was saying give the illusion some substance, and mix in some metal dust, and now it registers to the steel sight. Otherwise I am confused by what you are saying.

It has to stand up to an Inquisitor's extended steel sight and to normal steelsight. If they show the same result, you have found an impostor.

12 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I responded to each. 

Badly.

Now, while Roshar has some advantages, which I would judge decisive, there are still things Scadrial can try. They do have advantages, too.

• They are much better at fighting in close quarters.
• Their Investiture does not decay.
• They are better at night fighting
• They are very hard to surprise
• They have a technological edge.

If the Scadrians tried to mount a campaign based on them, it may work. And we know too little on how the magics interact. What do the blue lines mean? Does Gravitation actually work on something that is touched by allomantic power? What is the effect of copperclouds on the various powers and their range?

 

[Pathfinder]

16 hours ago, RShara said:

The bulk of their troops would be the koloss, not the skaa.

That still is a far far cry from 100 million troops to draw upon and a mistborn without atium was able to kill a whole lot of them.

10 hours ago, StanLemon said:

 

Yes but Shardplate has been shown to crack and break to normal weaponry without it being too over the top with how much damage it takes.

Dead shardplate.  As discussed with Calderis, we do not know the resistance of radiant shardplate 

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As RShara said, the bulk is Koloss. Also the Garrison soldiers aren't likely to be underfed. One of the biggest reasons skaa joined was because it gave a better life and food

Still a far far cry from 100 million as earlier assumed.

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As was brought up well before you made this post. Doesn't change the obscene Stormlight requirements. Every Radiant who could do it would have to stop somewhere between 500-1,000 Koloss each, well beyond anything we've seen a Radiant do.

I already gave examples of low stormlight use that would take out large numbers and has been shown to work in the books. Windrunners fly over with boulders and drop them. Siege boulders killed the koloss easily. Koloss when enraged attack anyone, including their own allies. A lightweaver doing like shallan with illusions interspersed among the soldiers (no where near as much as shallan did) could occupy them while the boulders crush them.

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Lurchers would have more trouble but not so much with Coinshots. They can break armor from a distance, have good mobility, and if the Windrunners try to do the Lash them up and let them fall trick the Coinshot can just drop a coin and Push to avoid hitting the ground.

Again skybreakers can use division at range 

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That has opened another can of worms. How does a coppercloud look in the CR? Can they see at all? Unknown I'd say.

It is unknown how copper clouds are seen in the cognitive realm 

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They have a year to prepare. ANd Rosharan troops will find themselves in a totally alien environment.

The OP said it was a neutral planet. Why is the assumption that a neutral planet would unfairly benefit the scadrians.  If anything due to the highstorms and constant season changing, rosharans are used to far more hostile landscapes.

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Hence they won't send them out in adverse conditions after the first few defeats. And the likelihood of having a Coinshot or Lurcher increases with the importance of the base you want to infiltrate.

As per the numbers I backed up with WoB,  there would be far fewer coin shots than you give credit. Unless you are in calderis's and rshara's camp that disagree with those WoB. If that is the case then I do not see the point of further discussing the numbers as there is nothing to discuss 

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Seekers. An Inquisitor has to use allomancy permanently. If he does not pulse, he is fake (or under copper - but they'd ask him to drop it).

Again you do not know the extent of what light weaving can and cannot accomplish. That still does not cover my response as to why a person cannot just go with an illusion to disguise their features.  And language is not an issue as I have already said prior and will repeat again below

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And there is still the issue of speech.

Limits (typo)

Leaving out morphology, syntax, intonation ...
Now, a Cryptic may eventually learn all this. But that still gives you no way to impersonate an allomancer in the presence of Seekers or Mistborn.

Dalinar speaks the language fluently due to touching the person that speaks the language. Pattern mimics speaks perfectly. No learning required. It heard, it repeated.  All that would be necessary is to have the captive speak certain phrases like what wayne did. Get the pronouncian of certain sounds. It is no where near as hard as you present.

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It has to stand up to an Inquisitor's extended steel sight and to normal steelsight. If they show the same result, you have found an impostor.

That makes no sense. So being consistent showing the metal lines you should be showing is an imposter? Again this makes no sense

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Badly.

Wow ok. Well unfortunately I am my phone so I was only able to bullet point the points I have already made that you did not read which is why you said I responded badly. Next time I'll be on the computer so I can quote myself so you can read my comments a second time before you say I am doing so badly.

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Now, while Roshar has some advantages, which I would judge decisive, there are still things Scadrial can try. They do have advantages, too.

• They are much better at fighting in close quarters.

That is demonstrably false. Unless every single one has atium, radiants are stronger, faster, more durable and have a larger ability variety to draw upon

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• Their Investiture does not decay.

This is also demonstrably false. Mistings,  mistborn, and feruchemists run out of metals. They still need to run and get more. Bondsmiths can recharge and super charge radiants. OP said there would be three of them. So radiants would not get depleted as fast as you posit.

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• They are better at night fighting

You mean stealth assassination? Personally I would take an illusionist that can hide from detectors with a magic blade that can be summoned and kill without spilling blood and cause a one hit kill that cannot be blocked unless there are very specific circumstances.

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• They are very hard to surprise

As I mentioned multiple times now, illusions dont activate the screamers at kholinar that detect active use of investiture like kaladins gravitation 

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• They have a technological edge.

Era 1 as has been hammered repeatedly all over this thread had soldiers with bows and arrows and swords. No guns. 

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If the Scadrians tried to mount a campaign based on them, it may work. And we know too little on how the magics interact. What do the blue lines mean?

Blue lines if the steel isnt heightened to bands of mourning levels just show you trace elements of metal in the body.

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Does Gravitation actually work on something that is touched by allomantic power?

It worked on the fused.

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What is the effect of copperclouds on the various powers and their range?

 

That is a good question though personally I do not think it accomplishes the extent that you theorize 

[StanLemon]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

That still is a far far cry from 100 million troops to draw upon and a mistborn without atium was able to kill a whole lot of them.

That was Vin, not exactly a standard Mistborn. Just like how Szeth won't be a standard Radiant.

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Dead shardplate.  As discussed with Calderis, we do not know the resistance of radiant shardplate 

Because we don't know how much more resistant Radiant Shardplate will be we have to use Dead Shardplate as are basis. Besides, I don't it's much more resistant but more likely regenerates faster.

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Still a far far cry from 100 million as earlier assumed.

Scadrial has canned food, much easier to supply food in that situation. 

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I already gave examples of low stormlight use that would take out large numbers and has been shown to work in the books. Windrunners fly over with boulders and drop them. Siege boulders killed the koloss easily. Koloss when enraged attack anyone, including their own allies. A lightweaver doing like shallan with illusions interspersed among the soldiers (no where near as much as shallan did) could occupy them while the boulders crush them.

Carrying boulders would be fairly obviously seen from a distance, plus it would still use a quite a fair bit of Stormlight to carry said boulders. The reason that the trebuchets worked was because it was a surprise attack, Elend (who's grip on the Koloss can't compare to TLR) wasn't paying attention, and the Koloss had no one to turn their rage onto but themselves. Let's break that down, well it won't be a surprise attack because anyone who glances at the sky would be able to see the Radiants coming they glow after all. The Koloss only attack their own allies when not directed even when enraged. And you yourself said in your example that their would be regular soldiers mixed in so they would have an outlet for their rage. 

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Again skybreakers can use division at range 

Show me the source on this, the only example of Division being used I can remember it was used via touch.

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It is unknown how copper clouds are seen in the cognitive realm

True

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The OP said it was a neutral planet. Why is the assumption that a neutral planet would unfairly benefit the scadrians.  If anything due to the highstorms and constant season changing, rosharans are used to far more hostile landscapes.

By neutral planet it would be more likely it was a Cosmere standard planet, so likely one that would benefit Scadrians. Just because Rosharans would be used to a more hostile landscape doesn't mean they would be able to handle a less hostile one. Their entire way of life is set up for the Roshar environment, but not something that would be good in any kind of other environment. One of the pov chapters has a character describing how weird and unsettling the springy grass is in Shin. Also, let's say that the gravity and oxygen quality on the neutral planet is equivalent to Roshar, that would only be a boon for Scadrians and if the gravity and oxygen was Scadrian standard then Rosharans would have trouble with it. Remember, Scadrians during the Final Empire also are accustomed to hostile environments, just a different kind of hostile. 

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As per the numbers I backed up with WoB,  there would be far fewer coin shots than you give credit. Unless you are in calderis's and rshara's camp that disagree with those WoB. If that is the case then I do not see the point of further discussing the numbers as there is nothing to discuss 

There is also WoB saying metalborn are more common than people think and frankly the books back up Calderis's and Rshara's viewpoint more. The only reason the Misting numbers are so low is because a lot of them haven't snapped

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Again you do not know the extent of what light weaving can and cannot accomplish. That still does not cover my response as to why a person cannot just go with an illusion to disguise their features.  And language is not an issue as I have already said prior and will repeat again below

Language is still an issue, as someone who has actually studied linguistics I can tell you that. Accents, slang, etc all have meaningful aspects and a Bondsmith has not been shown to be able to duplicate those. The issue with Lightweavers using illusions is that any Seeker will be able to spot them (e.g. an Inquisitor). I'm sure they would be able to do a fair bit of damage against normal ranks but if they are trying to sneak into higher ranked areas they would probably fail.

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Dalinar speaks the language fluently due to touching the person that speaks the language. Pattern mimics speaks perfectly. No learning required. It heard, it repeated.  All that would be necessary is to have the captive speak certain phrases like what wayne did. Get the pronouncian of certain sounds. It is no where near as hard as you present.

Wayne is a savant when it comes to accents and language. Very few people could pull off what he does. It's really not as easy as you think it is. Just because you can speak the language doesn't mean you can compensate for all the little things. I've known people who learned english as a second language and have been speaking it in the US for decades who still have a noticeable accent.

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That makes no sense. So being consistent showing the metal lines you should be showing is an imposter? Again this makes no sense

Steel Inquisitors can make out the full features of what they see.

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Wow ok. Well unfortunately I am my phone so I was only able to bullet point the points I have already made that you did not read which is why you said I responded badly. Next time I'll be on the computer so I can quote myself so you can read my comments a second time before you say I am doing so badly.

That is demonstrably false. Unless every single one has atium, radiants are stronger, faster, more durable and have a larger ability variety to draw upon

Only two things really give the Radiant a close range advantage, their healing and Shardblades. A third advantage is Plate if they have it. But they aren't stronger by any sense, frankly they are likely weaker. They live on a planet with less gravity so they would develop less muscle mass. Also the strength given from Stormlight has not been shown to be anything superior to Pewter whereas Pewter also gives perfect dexterity, agility, and balance which hasn't been shown to be the case with Stormlight. And they do not have a wider variety of abilities to draw on, the amount is actually fairly even.

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This is also demonstrably false. Mistings,  mistborn, and feruchemists run out of metals. They still need to run and get more. Bondsmiths can recharge and super charge radiants. OP said there would be three of them. So radiants would not get depleted as fast as you posit.

Again as has been said, we have no evidence of that beyond Dalinar and the time he did that was something unusual as even Odium didn't think it was possible. In fact the wiki says that the Stormfather said that only Dalinar has ever accomplished that feat (I'll see if I can find the line in Oathbringer). So know the Bondsmiths can't do what you are saying.

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You mean stealth assassination? Personally I would take an illusionist that can hide from detectors with a magic blade that can be summoned and kill without spilling blood and cause a one hit kill that cannot be blocked unless there are very specific circumstances.

I actually have to agree, one of the reasons stealth was so useful to Mistborn was because of the Mists

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As I mentioned multiple times now, illusions dont activate the screamers at kholinar that detect active use of investiture like kaladins gravitation 

This is because they use less Stormlight to make illusions than a Lashing does. We don't know the threshold the Screamers were focusing on. But as has been seen in the Mistborn books, even feint pulses can still be detected by Seekers

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Era 1 as has been hammered repeatedly all over this thread had soldiers with bows and arrows and swords. No guns. 

Yes, but they have better metals, they have canned food, they have siege weapons, etc. We aren't talking about guns we are talking about all the other advantages a civilization on the cusp of industrialization has.

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Blue lines if the steel isnt heightened to bands of mourning levels just show you trace elements of metal in the body.

Which will show inconsistencies in illusions

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It worked on the fused.

True

 

Edited October 19, 2019 by StanLemon

[+Oltux72]

55 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Again skybreakers can use division at range 

As far as we know Division can not be used at range.

55 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The OP said it was a neutral planet. Why is the assumption that a neutral planet would unfairly benefit the scadrians.  If anything due to the highstorms and constant season changing, rosharans are used to far more hostile landscapes.

They are not used to soil. Or dense forests. Or swamps. How would a neutral planet look like? Earth in the precambrian? Then both sides are likely to die from starvation before they find the other side. And the air would be barely or not at all breathable. Either you have Highstorms or not. If not, the planet won't look like Roshar.

55 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

As per the numbers I backed up with WoB,  there would be far fewer coin shots than you give credit. Unless you are in calderis's and rshara's camp that disagree with those WoB. If that is the case then I do not see the point of further discussing the numbers as there is nothing to discuss 

Indeed the numbers conflict.

55 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Again you do not know the extent of what light weaving can and cannot accomplish. That still does not cover my response as to why a person cannot just go with an illusion to disguise their features.  And language is not an issue as I have already said prior and will repeat again below

You can disguise your features. What does that buy you? Do you want to impersonate somebody? Then a perfect mask will not solve your problems. Now Rosharans look differently from Scadrians. A personal disguise will solve that issue. But there is still language:

55 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Dalinar speaks the language fluently due to touching the person that speaks the language.

He is a Bondsmith. He cannot create illusions. At best he can teach languages. Do you know how hard it is to get rid of a foreign accent? It takes years of total immersion at a minimum. Granted, that is for human learners. Spren are better.

55 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Pattern mimics speaks perfectly. No learning required. It heard, it repeated.  All that would be necessary is to have the captive speak certain phrases like what wayne did. Get the pronouncian of certain sounds. It is no where near as hard as you present.

No. He can then repeat the phrases perfectly. Does he know how to form a plural? Does he know syntax? Declensions or conjugations? The layout of the city he was supposed to be stationed in? Vocabulary? How to eat like a Scadrian? How to bind his shoe laces? How to curse when he stubs his toes or drops his canteen? How to greet a superior officer? That would take years of study. With a tiny number of teachers.

55 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

That makes no sense. So being consistent showing the metal lines you should be showing is an imposter? Again this makes no sense

There must be two kinds of lines. Otherwise every Coinshot or Lurcher would have steelsight. Hence you need to get the right kind of stuff into your illusions. While you have no way of looking at your own work. This will fail.

55 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

That is demonstrably false. Unless every single one has atium, radiants are stronger, faster, more durable and have a larger ability variety to draw upon

No Tineyes, no Seekers, no Electrum. Fewer large cities to train in. No forests with immobile trees to train in. Their main weapon they train with is a huge sword.

55 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

This is also demonstrably false. Mistings,  mistborn, and feruchemists run out of metals. They still need to run and get more.

But they can put them in storage and they will be good for decades. Not so Stormlight. Except for a small number of perfect gems, they run dry after two weeks or so.

55 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Bondsmiths can recharge and super charge radiants. OP said there would be three of them. So radiants would not get depleted as fast as you posit.

There are three of them. And how long does a supercharge last? A week?

55 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

You mean stealth assassination?

No. Fighting during the night. Literally. The period the sun is on the other side of a planet. Knights Radiant are radiant. Their bodies shine. Their armor shines. Their fuel shines.

• You are visible from far
• You ruin the night vision of verybody on your side
• Again, no equivalent of tin
• No equivalent of bronze

55 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Personally I would take an illusionist that can hide from detectors with a magic blade that can be summoned and kill without spilling blood and cause a one hit kill that cannot be blocked unless there are very specific circumstances.

Will they know the passwords?

55 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

As I mentioned multiple times now, illusions dont activate the screamers at kholinar that detect active use of investiture like kaladins gravitation

All the other Knights will. And even an illusionist is not immune from a Tineye.

55 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Era 1 as has been hammered repeatedly all over this thread had soldiers with bows and arrows and swords. No guns.

• mass production
• superior metalurgy
• canned food

Guns are far from their only technical edge. A million crossbow bolts. Ten thousand cross bows. All doable. Not so easy with Rosharan technology.

 

[StanLemon]

From Oathbringer chapter 119

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A direct conduit to the Spiritual Realm, the Stormfather said. You renew spheres, Dalinar?
“We are Connected.”
I was bonded to men before. This never happened then.
“Honor was alive then. We are something different. His remnants, your soul, my will.”

As evidence here, only Dalinar has been able to recharge Sheres and supercharge Radiants. No other Bondsmith could do it before

Edited October 19, 2019 by StanLemon

[Karger]

18 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That has opened another can of worms. How does a coppercloud look in the CR? Can they see at all? Unknown I'd say.

You don't need to look into the SR to use cohesion.

18 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

They have a year to prepare. ANd Rosharan troops will find themselves in a totally alien environment.

So conceivably could the scadrians,

18 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

And the likelihood of having a Coinshot or Lurcher increases with the importance of the base you want to infiltrate.

What?

On 10/18/2019 at 6:24 PM, RShara said:

The bulk of their troops would be the koloss, not the skaa.

Koloss sound pretty useless against shardblades.  They are great for mobility and easy to supply but there effectiveness against trained soldiers has never been shown.  I would hazard a guess that it is in fact quite limited since they rely so heavily on strength and lack any teamwork.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Karger

[Bigmikey357]

Mass production requires infrastructure, meaning factories and the transportation to support that factory, the power to run that factory. That doesn't happen overnight or even in a year's time. I don't remember Era 1 having factories but they definitely won't have them on the neutral planet. Not unless TLR is building a city while he prepares for war.

For illusions all one needs is an edge. The Radiants have the best scouts ever. Between Windrunners flying from on high to invisible Spren, details of troop movements can be ascertained rather easily before any infiltration is attempted. Will the Lightweaver be able to sustain the ruse over a period of days or weeks? Of course not. Language acquisition is the least of the issues. But if you only want to do a smash and grab or an assasination then the disguise can hold out long enough for that. I'm about soulcasting metal stores or murdering metalborn in the night, not trying to listen in on their high Council. I'm hitting targets where I don't have have to speak much if at all. Sure the Scadrians can counter even this but it will take time to ramp up their security measures to deal with that specific threat. 

A tineye or seeker are really only of use for detection in battle. Do we really think they're standing toe to toe with a Radiant even without armor? The guys with autoheal and pewterarm strength and weapons that can be anything? Bad days ahead. Nobody speaks of electrum because it's only real use is as a counter to Atium. As far as environment, both sides have to become accustomed. I don't see any Redwood trees on Scadrial either if we're being honest. They know what soil is, great. Ya think Rosharan people can't get used to it in a year's time? BTW there are Radiants from Shinovar too. 

We don't know how much better Living Plate holds up over Dead Plate but we can make not unreasonable speculations based on the performance of live Blades vs Dead Blades. One thing we do know is that live plate can be summoned or dismissed at thought. The midnight essence vision shows a Radiant dismissing his helmet. If the armor can react to thought like the blades do then it amounts to another weapon that can be wielded. Add that to a Spren blade that could just as easily can be an unbreakable shardshield and back again and invunerability is that much closer.

The question Of the day is, can you pool the powers of the Radiancy? Awesome feats have been performed by Surgebinding but as those that argue for Scadrial point out, an average Radiant isn't turning acres of ground to mud by themselves, or at least it seems not, not unless there's a perpendicularly nearby. OTOH the Shattered Plains were shattered by Surgebinding. Yes the note only mentioned that great magics were released there, yet the magical systems of Roshar are all Surgebinding other than the Old Magic. Voidbinding is essentially Surgebinding with Odium as focus instead of H/C. Whatever Dawnshards are, it's clear to me that they are tools that utilize Surgebinding as well. I would say probably they can. It's not going to be standardized like WOT but I don't think it would be farfetched to say that a small group of Radiants can effect the world from miles out. The evidence of this? The Everstorm. It's a worldwide phenomenon summoned not by one person but by a group. There's nothing mechanically preventing Radiants to pull off things similar in scope.

[+Oltux72]

14 hours ago, Karger said:

You don't need to look into the SR to use cohesion.

Opening open questions in serial. If you use Cohesion (or Soulcasting for that matter), how do your commands get to their target? And what does a coppercloud do to that transmission?

14 hours ago, Karger said:

So conceivably could the scadrians,

Highstorms?

14 hours ago, Karger said:

What?

Officers in TLR's army will be noble, hence there will be a lot of allomancers among them. Inquisitors will have importance. They are allomancers.

14 hours ago, Karger said:

Koloss sound pretty useless against shardblades.

Arrow, crossbows, javelins, slings - preferrably with poisoned missiles?

14 hours ago, Karger said:

  They are great for mobility and easy to supply but there effectiveness against trained soldiers has never been shown.  I would hazard a guess that it is in fact quite limited since they rely so heavily on strength and lack any teamwork.

By themselves yes. WIth allomantic officers the story may be different.

12 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Mass production requires infrastructure,

It also gets you interchangeable parts.

12 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

meaning factories and the transportation to support that factory, the power to run that factory. That doesn't happen overnight or even in a year's time. I don't remember Era 1 having factories but they definitely won't have them on the neutral planet. Not unless TLR is building a city while he prepares for war.

That is exactly what he may do. If your enemy has Cohesion that may be a bad idea, but the Scadrians do not necessarily know that.

12 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

For illusions all one needs is an edge. The Radiants have the best scouts ever. Between Windrunners flying from on high to invisible Spren, details of troop movements can be ascertained rather easily before any infiltration is attempted.

Yes. That comes with air superiority. The Scadrians will be forced to go to night operations.

12 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Will the Lightweaver be able to sustain the ruse over a period of days or weeks? Of course not. Language acquisition is the least of the issues. But if you only want to do a smash and grab or an assasination then the disguise can hold out long enough for that. I'm about soulcasting metal stores or murdering metalborn in the night,

You cannot have a high rate of losses if this is to make sense.

12 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

not trying to listen in on their high Council. I'm hitting targets where I don't have have to speak much if at all. Sure the Scadrians can counter even this but it will take time to ramp up their security measures to deal with that specific threat. 

A tineye or seeker are really only of use for detection in battle. Do we really think they're standing toe to toe with a Radiant even without armor?

Hence you build combat teams. That is already the Scadrian style.

12 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

The guys with autoheal and pewterarm strength

We are quite sure Pewterarms are stronger than mere Radiants. Against people in Plate the situation is unclear.

12 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

and weapons that can be anything? Bad days ahead. Nobody speaks of electrum because it's only real use is as a counter to Atium. As far as environment, both sides have to become accustomed. I don't see any Redwood trees on Scadrial either if we're being honest. They know what soil is, great. Ya think Rosharan people can't get used to it in a year's time? BTW there are Radiants from Shinovar too.

Yes. Marching over wet ground. That will be fun to a people only knowing wet rock.

12 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

 yet the magical systems of Roshar are all Surgebinding other than the Old Magic.

For all we know Regals did it. They can definitly pool powers.
Radiants can combine their different powers. It may require a Bondsmith.

 

[Karger]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Highstorms?

Or shades or Taldain's darkside or whatever the evil is...

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Opening open questions in serial. If you use Cohesion (or Soulcasting for that matter), how do your commands get to their target? And what does a coppercloud do to that transmission?

I don't think the other powers work through the CR.  It is called surgebinding binding and connections are part of the SR.

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Officers in TLR's army will be noble, hence there will be a lot of allomancers among them. Inquisitors will have importance. They are allomancers.

Not that many.  Alomancy is fairly rare even among nobility and there are only 20 inquisitors or so.  You only need to worry about inquisitors and seekers really and only if the seekers are actively burning and can detect Lightweaving(Lightweaving is actually quite quiet).

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Arrow, crossbows, javelins, slings - preferrably with poisoned missiles?

Koloss only use swords.

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

By themselves yes. WIth allomantic officers the story may be different.

Not true.  Elend and Vin both say that they can't get the koloss to do much beyond go their and fight.  Maybe you can micromanage with enough soothers but in that case you can just have ranged weapon people pick those guys off.

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

It also gets you interchangeable parts.

If you have infrastructure.

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That is exactly what he may do. If your enemy has Cohesion that may be a bad idea, but the Scadrians do not necessarily know that.

So its a bad idea that won't work either way?

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes. That comes with air superiority. The Scadrians will be forced to go to night operations.

But the Rosharans also have superior mobility in most cases.  Airlifting Radiants FTW!

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

You cannot have a high rate of losses if this is to make sense.

Lightweavers are pretty good at getting away.

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Hence you build combat teams. That is already the Scadrian style.

None of those combat teams have ever worked.

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

We are quite sure Pewterarms are stronger than mere Radiants. Against people in Plate the situation is unclear.

People in plate are stronger.

 

[Bigmikey357]

A 2 Oath Kaladin with a little bit of of Stormlight did a dropkick and cracked dead Plate. How exactly is that not as strong as a Thug?  And as far as Plate, Dalinar dug a 30 foot trench through solid Rock, wearing out a couple of warhammers while in dead Plate. He did this in an hour or 2. Plate is much stronger than a pewterarm. They're likely equivalent to a Mistborn or Inquisitor flaring pewter with duraluminum.

If the Lightweaver corrupts or eliminates metal stores then they cripple the Scadrians ability to make war. If a hit on a mine or metal store deprived half the metalborn troops of their metal or if  she flummoxed the Atium cache then her getting away isn't required. I would gladly take that trade-off.  And BTW what exactly is the counter for a Spren spying on the camp? A combat team won't detect them, there's nothing for a Tineye to sense, no metal for Steelsight to suss out. And if seekers can sense them, what are they going to do about it?

On 10/19/2019 at 0:07 PM, StanLemon said:

  Quote

A direct conduit to the Spiritual Realm, the Stormfather said. You renew spheres, Dalinar?
“We are Connected.”
I was bonded to men before. This never happened then.
“Honor was alive then. We are something different. His remnants, your soul, my will.”

This specifically refers to Dalinar opening the Perpendicularly. All the Bondsmiths could supercharge per WoB.

They never have to March on soggy ground if they choose to make the effort. They never have to let Scadrians move on good ground as long as they're in range. 

For Scadrial to win this conflict they must be full go on the offensive. They must force the action in such a way as to overwhelm the Radiants before they can heal from damages. They cannot give Roshar time to hunker down or to secure their Stormlight collection points. They cannot win a defensive battle with Roshar, fortifications are useless against their weapons, much less their surges. But they have the most powerful chess piece on the board and it would be stupid not to use him to greatest effect. His most powerful tools are doing damage too, particularly with Atium. But where they are realistically killing or temporarily incapacitating dozens at a time, TLR can kill hundreds or close to it. 

Conversely, Roshar's winning strategy is to draw out the conflict and protect their Stormlight collection points. A vast majority of Scadrians cannot cope with the fortifications a sufficiently charged group of Radiants can put up in minutes or hours at most. And they can go places even TLR cannot follow. Their sappers have more mobility and can do more damage to targets a Scadrian needs to fight effectively. And if a Soulcaster figures out aluminum it can be as much a trump card for Roshar as Atium is for Scadrial. Wittle down their numbers, destroy their metals, play keep-away with TLR until the entire remaining force can focus on him. 

[Calderis]

While looking for something else, I came across an actual in book number, from Khriss, that will put the argument to rest on rate of Allomancers. 

Quote

“Ah, but any Twinborn combination is rare indeed. Mistings are one in a thousand; most Ferrings even more unusual, and their bloodlines constrained. To arrive at any specific combination of two is highly improbable. You are one of only three Crashers ever born, Lord Waxillium.”

 

[StanLemon]

2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

A 2 Oath Kaladin with a little bit of of Stormlight did a dropkick and cracked dead Plate. How exactly is that not as strong as a Thug?  And as far as Plate, Dalinar dug a 30 foot trench through solid Rock, wearing out a couple of warhammers while in dead Plate. He did this in an hour or 2. Plate is much stronger than a pewterarm. They're likely equivalent to a Mistborn or Inquisitor flaring pewter with duraluminum.

I never said they weren't as strong as a Thug, but they lack the other advantages of Pewter. 

That is a huge assumption on Plate you are making

2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

If the Lightweaver corrupts or eliminates metal stores then they cripple the Scadrians ability to make war. If a hit on a mine or metal store deprived half the metalborn troops of their metal or if  she flummoxed the Atium cache then her getting away isn't required. I would gladly take that trade-off.  And BTW what exactly is the counter for a Spren spying on the camp? A combat team won't detect them, there's nothing for a Tineye to sense, no metal for Steelsight to suss out. And if seekers can sense them, what are they going to do about it?

One, Atium is pure Investiture, it would be like trying to Soulcast a Shardblade. Two, that is an obscene amount of metal for them to get to, they wouldn't be able to sneak enough Soulcasters in to do the job. We've already told you how they can spot illusionists.

2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

This specifically refers to Dalinar opening the Perpendicularly. All the Bondsmiths could supercharge per WoB.

No it's not, at this point you are trying to make up advantages for Roshar. I just checked every related tag on the Arcanum I could think of and just reread the chapter. YOU ARE WRONG ABOUT THIS. The reason they were supercharged and recharged was explicitly because of the Perpendicularity.

2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

They never have to March on soggy ground if they choose to make the effort. They never have to let Scadrians move on good ground as long as they're in range. 

That would use up a lot of there Stormlight reserves and as I have told you and given an example as to it, BONDSMITHS CAN'T RECHARGE THEIR SPHERES.

2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

For Scadrial to win this conflict they must be full go on the offensive. They must force the action in such a way as to overwhelm the Radiants before they can heal from damages. They cannot give Roshar time to hunker down or to secure their Stormlight collection points. They cannot win a defensive battle with Roshar, fortifications are useless against their weapons, much less their surges. But they have the most powerful chess piece on the board and it would be stupid not to use him to greatest effect. His most powerful tools are doing damage too, particularly with Atium. But where they are realistically killing or temporarily incapacitating dozens at a time, TLR can kill hundreds or close to it. 

Did you really think Scadrial of all worlds wouldn't go on the full offensive? The Lord Ruler was a conqueror.

2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Conversely, Roshar's winning strategy is to draw out the conflict and protect their Stormlight collection points. A vast majority of Scadrians cannot cope with the fortifications a sufficiently charged group of Radiants can put up in minutes or hours at most. And they can go places even TLR cannot follow. Their sappers have more mobility and can do more damage to targets a Scadrian needs to fight effectively. And if a Soulcaster figures out aluminum it can be as much a trump card for Roshar as Atium is for Scadrial. Wittle down their numbers, destroy their metals, play keep-away with TLR until the entire remaining force can focus on him. 

You keep acting like Roshar would have all this Stormlight to be able to pull off every grand feat. Also, only two orders would be able to stay away from TLR's wrath. 

Lastly, your aluminum thought isn't as great an advantage as you think. It's absolutely terrible to use as armor, weapons wouldn't be very good either. It admittedly would be protection from emotional Allomancy and probably decent as arrowheads but other than that, making a bunch of aluminum would be more a hindrance for Roshar. Aluminum would be a great armor for Scadrial because it's light weight and blocks Shardblades.

[StanLemon]

You're probably using this to justify that all Bondsmiths could do what Dalinar did

Quote

Questioner

Dalinar Ascends, right? Like, right then, there.

Brandon Sanderson

I have RAFO'd that. Whether he is Ascending or not is a RAFO.

Questioner

Okay, because I know he kind of mentions from that, I don't know how to say his name but the older guy who has the Diagram--

Brandon Sanderson

Taravangian, yeah. Whether that deserves to be a capital "A" or not is a matter of argument. It can be disputed.

Questioner

I guess my main question would just be Dalinar's now able to pull Stormlight and give it to people now.

Brandon Sanderson

He definitely can. That is a Bondsmith power, so.

Questioner

That is a Bondsmith power, okay.

Brandon Sanderson

That is specifically a Bondsmith power.

Questioner

Because my roommate was saying well, the Stormfather was surprised he could do that or was the Stormfather surprised that he was able to bridge--

Brandon Sanderson

He was surprised by what was happening to Dalinar as a whole.

Questioner

Oh okay, that's what I thought because I was like, because I felt like the Stormlight, that power would be a Bondsmith power.

Brandon Sanderson

Let's say that the Stormfather and Odium were seeing something in Dalinar that, perhaps, the average person watching even who is knowledgeable about Surges would not completely understand... But he will be able to use that power and Bondsmiths in the past have used that same power.

 

Footnote: Brandon clarified that he might have been unintentionally misleading in his answers to this question during his Stormlight 4 Update 1.

But there is that very important bolded footnote there at the end. 

As I've just read the chapter where Dalinar does it, it is very clear that it is because of the Perpendicularity that they get access to all that Stormlight. Jasnah's perspective is pretty explicit that it's because the Three Realms are so close as to almost be one and that they can basically tap directly into the Spiritual Realm for power that they have all that Stormlight. And as others have said, books trump WoB and Stormfather explicitly states that recharging spheres has never happened before.

My personal guess is that because Honor is dead, any Bondsmith could do what Dalinar did but it requires the Shard to not have a vessel and be "free flowing" so to speak.

Edited October 21, 2019 by StanLemon

[+Oltux72]

7 hours ago, Karger said:

I don't think the other powers work through the CR.  It is called surgebinding binding and connections are part of the SR.

Why then are spanreeds blocked by being in an aluminium cage? And why can you not lash through Plate?

7 hours ago, Karger said:

Not that many.  Alomancy is fairly rare even among nobility and there are only 20 inquisitors or so.  You only need to worry about inquisitors and seekers really and only if the seekers are actively burning and can detect Lightweaving(Lightweaving is actually quite quiet).

They likely have as many seekers as the Radiants have Lightweavers. Now the Lightweavers can pick their targets. But for planning they need to know whether they can be detected. Very risky. Their utility is much diminished.

7 hours ago, Karger said:

Koloss only use swords.

Not true.  Elend and Vin both say that they can't get the koloss to do much beyond go their and fight.  Maybe you can micromanage with enough soothers but in that case you can just have ranged weapon people pick those guys off.

May I point out that neither of them had a few centuries of experience at directing them?

7 hours ago, Karger said:

If you have infrastructure.

No. You can still take parts of example one crossbow to repair others because they are standardized and measured.

7 hours ago, Karger said:

So its a bad idea that won't work either way?

It depends on whether the Scadrians find a way to counter Cohesion. Unknown. And on the Rosharans finding the enemy bases. A planet is a big place.

7 hours ago, Karger said:

But the Rosharans also have superior mobility in most cases.  Airlifting Radiants FTW!

If all goes well. The Rosharans are better under adverse conditions. And they are able to use infrastructure.

• Radiants navigate visually - on an alien planet, without maps
• If they were aircraft, we'd say they have leaky tanks. They can land and wait for a few days, but not weeks
• Coinshots can use prepositioned anchors. In that case navigation is provided for.
• Conviniently Radiants glow and Coinshots can sense each other and the weapons of their oponents

At night or bad weather the Coinshots are ahead.

7 hours ago, Karger said:

Lightweavers are pretty good at getting away.

Neither gravitaion nor elsecalling

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

Did you really think Scadrial of all worlds wouldn't go on the full offensive? The Lord Ruler was a conqueror.

If we are taking about taking a planet, he will need ships. That takes time. Who will win on the high seas depends on storage. If the Radiants can recharge spheres on a ship, they will win in a fleet engagement. If not, the Scadrians will win, due to superior technology and allomancy, whose fuel keeps indenfinitely.

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

Lastly, your aluminum thought isn't as great an advantage as you think. It's absolutely terrible to use as armor, weapons wouldn't be very good either. It admittedly would be protection from emotional Allomancy

Another can of worms. Spren cannot wear a helmet. What will emotional allomancy do to them?

 

[Calderis]

I've pretty much said my peice on this conflict, as stated in the OP, so I'm just coming in for clarity here 

Bondsmiths cannot open perps. The stormlight power that WoB is referring to was a passing comment in one of the last chapters, and it targets a single person. 

Quote

Kaladin flew across the churning ocean. Dalinar had been able to summon the strength to overcharge him with Stormlight, though it was obviously exhausting to do so.

As to the perpendicularity, that's unique to Dalinar, or at least a Stormfather Bondsmith, as explained in the book. It's the combination of "His remnants, your soul, my will.” it's a result of the bond and Tanavast's shadow having been absorbed by the Stormfather, Connecting him to all of the Shard that was. 

As to the pewter argument, we have this. 

Quote

Sandastron

I’m very curious about pewter. How much Feruchemical pewter, steel, and gold would you have to take in in order to be equal to burning pewter and flaring.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh…um, okay. So you wanna...ok, let’s back this up. So you wanna know feruchemically what would it take to match burning?

Sandastron

Yes.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay. So burning pewter, I kind of imagine...roughly doubling. Roughly.

Sandastron

Double your strength?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. But without the muscle mass change, it’s a magical boost. So because of that it has some pretty dramatic effects, like when Vin jumps and things like that.

Sandastron

So it’s only a double, so would flaring it bring it any higher?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Flaring would go higher.

Sandastron

Would it be like triple?

Brandon Sanderson

Maybe like triple.

Sandastron

Maybe like tripling...that’s fascinating. So I always thought normal burning would triple it and flaring would quadruple.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah I always felt kind of double. You won’t see people burning pewter and lifting a car.

Sandastron

Right, exactly.

Brandon Sanderson

You see people burning pewter and delivering a really solid punch.

Sandastron

Gotcha, thank you. That is fascinating…and would it be about doubling speed and healing ability?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven’t worked out the numbers on that exactly. I have an instinct that says thatburning pewter, healing goes a bit faster but I have to look in the books and see what we’ve done in the past and then kind of canonize it.

Calamity Philadelphia signing (Feb. 20, 2016)

A thug can have double strength normally, and triple when flaring. 

In tWoK, when Dalinar was digging the latrine trench, he easily with one hand lifts a shardbearers hammer which two laborers together can barely lift. 

Plate easily has the advantage here. 

[Bigmikey357]

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

You keep acting like Roshar would have all this Stormlight to be able to pull off every grand feat. Also, only two orders would be able to stay away from TLR's wrath. 

Lastly, your aluminum thought isn't as great an advantage as you think. It's absolutely terrible to use as armor, weapons wouldn't be very good either. It admittedly would be protection from emotional Allomancy and probably decent as arrowheads but other than that, making a bunch of aluminum would be more a hindrance for Roshar. Aluminum would be a great armor for Scadrial because it's light weight and blocks Shardblades.

One, those 2 Orders are two of the largest 3 traditional Orders, the Stonewards being the other. Two, it's not like people wouldn't be easy to evacuate with those two orders. Lash as many people as possible upward, let another Windrunner catch em in the air, fly away.  A regular assembly line. 

And as far as aluminum goes, just knowing the effect it has against allomancers is a huge advantage. It's not going to be effective if used the way you posit, but it's not useless. Oh BTW, aluminum blocks a Shardblade from the soul severing function. The blocker still has to deal with the momentum of a 6 foot long sword being wielded by someone with at least the strength commonly attributed to pewterarms.

And according to the starting conditions laid down by the OP, Radiants will have roughly the same amount of Stormlight available as they would on Roshar. Every surgebinder we've seen in this series has done incredible things, but it would be a fallacy to look at their current abilities as the baseline when one, we haven't seen what a Radiant can do when they're maxed out and two, we know that each step comes with a power boost, an increase in Stormlight usage efficiency and less Stormlight leakage.

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

, Atium is pure Investiture, it would be like trying to Soulcast a Shardblade. Two, that is an obscene amount of metal for them to get to, they wouldn't be able to sneak enough Soulcasters in to do the job. We've already told you how they can spot illusionists

Sure you can't soulcast a godmetal directly but you can make it inaccessible. That's why I said flummox the Atium supply not destroy it. Easiest way, soulcast the area around it to stone. Of course that cache would likely be the most heavily guarded in the camp so it'd be a long shot at best but the possibility exists. But other metal supplies should be easier to get to, less heavily guarded initially and the route thoroughly scouted by undetectable Spren. And honestly we've never seen a maxed out Lightweaver so you don't know how much area their soulcasting can effect. 

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

I never said they weren't as strong as a Thug, but they lack the other advantages of Pewter. 

That is a huge assumption on Plate you are making

Advantages of pewter: Strength obviously, increased dexterity, balance and endurance. 

Advantages of Stormlight: increased strength, speed, autoheal, indestructible shardweapon. 

Pewter advantages are mitigated by Radiant ones. 

As far as Plate assumptions, we've seen it in action. For example, when Dalinar in dead Plate catches the decending claw of the Chasmfiend. A pewterarm isn't getting crushed by that multi-ton monster? A Mistborn with duraluminum + pewter is about the only thing keeping that guy from getting squished.

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

Quote

per WoB.

No it's not, at this point you are trying to make up advantages for Roshar. I just checked every related tag on the Arcanum I could think of and just reread the chapter. YOU ARE WRONG ABOUT THIS. The reason they were supercharged and recharged was explicitly because of the Perpendicularity.

First, you're misinterpreting what I wrote.  Here, take a look at this:

Questioner

Dalinar Ascends, right? Like, right then, there.

Brandon Sanderson

I have RAFO'd that. Whether he is Ascending or not is a RAFO.

Questioner

Okay, because I know he kind of mentions from that, I don't know how to say his name but the older guy who has the Diagram--

Brandon Sanderson

Taravangian, yeah. Whether that deserves to be a capital "A" or not is a matter of argument. It can be disputed.

Questioner

I guess my main question would just be Dalinar's now able to pull Stormlight and give it to people now.

Brandon Sanderson

He definitely can. That is a Bondsmith power, so.

Questioner

That is a Bondsmith power, okay.

Brandon Sanderson

That is specifically a Bondsmith power.

Questioner

Because my roommate was saying well, the Stormfather was surprised he could do that or was the Stormfather surprised that he was able to bridge--

Brandon Sanderson

He was surprised by what was happening to Dalinar as a whole.

Questioner

Oh okay, that's what I thought because I was like, because I felt like the Stormlight, that power would be a Bondsmith power.

Brandon Sanderson

Let's say that the Stormfather and Odium were seeing something in Dalinar that, perhaps, the average person watching even who is knowledgeable about Surges would not completely understand... But he will be able to use that power and Bondsmiths in the past have used that same power.

Footnote: Brandon clarified that he might have been unintentionally misleading in his answers to this question during his Stormlight 4 Update 1.
Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

As you can see I am not just making up advantages for Roshar, I am doing my best to give my honest assessment of the abilities and shortcomings of both parties. If what I have seen hurts your argument then it's not my fault.

Lastly,

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

Did you really think Scadrial of all worlds wouldn't go on the full offensive? The Lord Ruler was a conqueror.

I pointed out in an earlier post that in order for TLR to use mass production to his advantage that he must build an infrastructure to support that action. I believe you agreed that he should or that he would. Building a city to support his mass production apparatus is not going on the full offensive. It's also not likely to work but that's a separate issue. And as far as him being a conqueror, well he's not had to fight something this formidable since his second century on the job. Even if you're right and the Scadrians would win this conflict, they're going to be hurt really bad. There will be blood by the riverful. He will make tactical errors at first, he rules over a long subjugated population and the voice in his head wants to kill him. 

[StanLemon]

22 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Footnote: Brandon clarified that he might have been unintentionally misleading in his answers to this question during his Stormlight 4 Update 1.
Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

As you can see I am not just making up advantages for Roshar, I am doing my best to give my honest assessment of the abilities and shortcomings of both parties. If what I have seen hurts your argument then it's not my fault.

Yes you are, I already posted this WoB. The footnote there straight up says that Brandon mislead the person in that WoB making the whole WoB practically pointless. Also the book directly contradicts it which as we've established multiple times, books trump WoB so until Stormlight 4 explains more we have to go off of what the books says

[Bigmikey357]

46 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Bondsmiths cannot open perps. The stormlight power that WoB is referring to was a passing comment in one of the last chapters, and it targets a single person. 

Quote

Kaladin flew across the churning ocean. Dalinar had been able to summon the strength to overcharge him with Stormlight, though it was obviously exhausting to do so.

As to the perpendicularity, that's unique to Dalinar, or at least a Stormfather Bondsmith, as explained in the book. It's the combination of "His remnants, your soul, my will.” it's a result of the bond and Tanavast's shadow having been absorbed by the Stormfather, Connecting him to all of the Shard that was. 

@StanLemon

I don't know how many times I have to say this. I am not saying that all Bondsmiths can open Perpendicularities. I'm saying that all Bondsmiths can supercharge Radiants. That quote from Calderis is a book quote, not a WoB. Please stop trying to put words in my mouth. BTW those two actions are not the same thing. With one, Dalinar serves as the fueling station (recharging spheres). With the other, he's temporarily increasing the storage capacity of the Radiant.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Bigmikey357

[StanLemon]

@Bigmikey357 The supercharging and recharging is BECAUSE of the Perpendicularity. I just read the chapter from the book today, it is VERY clear that the Perpendicularity is why he's able to do it.

[Calderis]

4 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

@Bigmikey357 The supercharging and recharging is BECAUSE of the Perpendicularity. I just read the chapter from the book today, it is VERY clear that the Perpendicularity is why he's able to do it.

They're two completely separate occasions. The "overcharge of Kaladin was long after the perpendicularity closed. 

[Gisaku75]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

As to the pewter argument, we have this. 

A thug can have double strength normally, and triple when flaring. 

In tWoK, when Dalinar was digging the latrine trench, he easily with one hand lifts a shardbearers hammer which two laborers together can barely lift. 

Plate easily has the advantage here. 

You must also consider the difference in gravity. basically a resident of Scadrial is much stronger and more resilient than a resident of Roshar. I am not very familiar with the subject but I believe that the difference must be calculated exponentially and not linearly. So a pewterman should be much stronger than a Shardbearer.

[Calderis]

7 minutes ago, Gisaku75 said:

You must also consider the difference in gravity. basically a resident of Scadrial is much stronger and more resilient than a resident of Roshar. I am not very familiar with the subject but I believe that the difference must be calculated exponentially and not linearly. So a pewterman should be much stronger than a Shardbearer.

Not really. There would definitely be effects when they transition between worlds but effectively on Roshar, for those who weight train or fight regularly, the upper bounds of what they lift are going to be essentially equivalent weights... They'll just be able to lift 30% more matter to make up the difference in the applied weight of gravity. 

The example I used was two full grown laborers, so not weak individuals, lifting a massive hammer together and having difficulty transporting it, and Dalinar grabbing it in one plated hand and easily lifting it to his shoulder. (which, grabbing a weighted weapon style hammer and lifting it in that manner is much much more difficult in itself than simply picking it straight up in the manner they were because of the shaft using the wrist as a fulcrum point)

There would be a pretty major adjustment to the Rosharan troops in full gravity in the first couple weeks... And plate would probably negate that other than some minor coordination issues for the Radiants. 

Edited October 21, 2019 by Calderis

[+Oltux72]

9 minutes ago, Calderis said:

They're two completely separate occasions. The "overcharge of Kaladin was long after the perpendicularity closed. 

Yes. However, the number of Bondsmiths is still very small. They can do this a few times on special occasions. In the big scheme Radiants are limited by the fuel they can practically carry. And by leakage of Stormlight. It barely lasts across a Weeping in the biggest gems. They cannot stockpile fuel. Do we have an idea how high the practile operating radius of a Windrunner is? It looks to me to be on the order of a thousand kilometers to me. That is, to cross major oceans, you need ships or elsecalling.