Pathfinder Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Calderis said: @Pathfinder and I will agree to disagree. Agree to disagree Quote Yes, the radiants are more common in certain areas. But currently, due to Connection issues, that means being a Kholin does make you more likely to be a Radiant, especially when you consider that the number of radiants is artificially limited by the number of spren. "entire populations were wiped out" in the recreance. The Inkspren post their culture because all that were left were the equivalent of children. Yet your statement was regarding the radiants at their height. At their height individual orders had potentially numbers in the low thousands Quote That is not a limit that metalborn suffer from. Even at the numbers your saying, that's 50000 metalborn to a few thousand radiants... Plus the lord ruler. Plus Koloss. It's not going to be an easy fight. Not arguing whether or not Scadrial would win. I am arguing that the numbers you are drawing upon are inaccurate. As I have stated already, does that mean baby metal born are fighting? Does that mean 80 year old metal born are fighting? In certain abilities maybe, but not the majority. Taking the full population means including people of all ages. People that need diapers, both baby fresh and wrinkly old. So that number is going to be lower than you state Quote But the rest of your argument on what we see in the books and how many people we see in only certain roles... In Era 1, whether you were noble or skaa, keeping you abilities secret was part of life. Just because someone wasn't involved in the criminal underground didn't make them not an Allomancer. Just because someone wasn't named as an Allomancer in noble society doesn't mean they weren't one. We see surprise reveals on a character who's been something else and manipulating people, or hiding a combat talent multiple times. And those allomancers could be hidden clowns because they are afraid of what the lord ruler will think of them. I do not mean to be flippant, but that still tells us nothing regarding the population of allomancers/feruchemists, while the words from the author's own mouth does. Quote In Era 2, there are mistings like Marasi who view their abilities as shameful and needing to be hidden. Aluminum and duralumin mistings have the derogatory moniker of gnats for that very reason. Same as above. Potentially people hiding it, does not mean it is evidence of a prevalence. Quote As to the people on the street that they interact with being Allomancers, we hear about Coinshots working as couriers and scours for the coach company. That would be well within the number I gave in the hundreds. Quote There's so others working the parlors and drumming up business illegally. Because someone does something illegally, means there are countless others doing the same which by extension means there is a prevalence? Because I see one person steal, that means there are 100s of other people stealing the exact same way, the exact same thing? Quote There's politicians using their power to drum up support like Karger just mentioned. Yep. One politician. Mentioned once. Stating he was the first of his kind to do so Quote There's Irich with the Set, who seems to have been hired more for his scientific work than the fact that he's a leecher. There were a whole lot of scientists at the site. Does that mean there are a prevalence of scientists across all of Scadrial? Quote There's every person that the set used to make a spike. We know Wax's Uncle and Telsin have spikes. We do not however know how many other people in the organization have spikes. Irich did not for instance. The soldiers working for them did not for instance. So we have no idea the number of spikes and individuals spiked that are available to state that is a sign of prevalence. Quote Allomancers use their abilities to pull an advantage and make a name for themselves and pull ahead of people in a ridiculously harsh environment of industrial labor, like Jak and Handerwym, or Nikki. The people left to work more "normal jobs" aren't Allomancers no. And they suffer for it. That's probably one of the reasons that criminal activity is also rife with it. In both eras. All famous unique individuals. People by and large in the novels do not know how allomancy works. People still think soothers and rioters can control your mind. People believe Jak's statements about using tin to summon great bursts of strength, when it does not work that way, and WoB also confirm that Jak is fudging things, like his relationship with koloss blooded woman. Quote So I think the signs of their level of prevalence are there. I do not think those are signs, and I think the numerous WoB I have referenced back that up. Quote Regardless, this is a side tangent, and even at the numbers of the WoB, between mistings, Mistborn, inquisitors, Koloss, and TLR, with atium and Hemalurgy and everything else. I'd still vote Scadrial. And I agree. Roshar without heralds, and Scadrial having their guns, inquistors, koloss, and most importantly the lord ruler, Scadrial to me would win. But as I said, I disagree on the numbers presented. Quote Which, at 1 in 500, that should still mean there are 100 Mistborn in TFE by the 1 per 2000 number for metalborn Straff was breeding on purpose. Using your earlier referenced logic, we do not know how many children he sired. He mentioned it was at least enough to create a misting kill squad, which was killed by Vin. Some were his children, which is why he was so upset at the loss. Because of all the investment lost in breeding and raising them hidden away. Edited October 17, 2019 by Pathfinder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) I think the biggest disparity is going to be in healing. Radiants can heal. Only one of the metalic arts grants that ability. This means it takes many hits to bring down any given Radiant and only one shardblade hit to take down any given Metalborn. 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: And I agree. Roshar without heralds, and Scadrial having their guns, inquistors, koloss, and most importantly the lord ruler, Scadrial to me would win. But as I said, I disagree on the numbers presented. Not a naval battle.  Edited October 17, 2019 by Karger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 11 minutes ago, Karger said: I think the biggest disparity is going to be in healing. Radiants can heal. Only one of the metalic arts grants that ability. This means it takes many hits to bring down any given Radiant and only one shardblade hit to take down any given Metalborn. Not a navel battle.  I should hope there's no battles in peoples navels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 51 minutes ago, RShara said: I should hope there's no battles in peoples navels Stupid auto correct! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigmikey357 Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 In a sense the numbers for the sides don't matter, at least in my mind. Of all the Scadrians and their myriad of powers, only TLR has the particular power set to significantly hurt the Radiant forces. Every other group can be checkmated by a Radiant order or orders without significant losses. Koloss? Turn the ground to quicksand with cohesion and burn baby with Division. Kandra? Spren see into the CR and will easily be able to detect that the cognitive aspect of a Kandra is significantly different than that of a human and alert their Radiant to the disparity. Mistings? Not powerful enough to overcome investiture interference with someone in Shardplate. Maybe a rioter/soother could maybe manage to shift someone's mood a little bit, but I believe the Nahel bond shrugs this influence off too. See Kaladin being barred from forming a connection with Nergaoul due to his burgeoning connection with Syl. Mistborn is closer to hurting a Radiant but there's an upper limit to any power output they can manage. They can spike that upper limit with duraluminum but must immediately replace that power afterwards, giving time for a counter by a Radiant outside the affected area of influence. Fighting in teams mitigates this risk somewhat but the problem is that they amount to all offense. They cannot heal from a hit from someone in armor, they cannot take a hit from a Shard weapon, they can't outmaneuver a flier. They would be a problem for squires or unarmored Radiants but full Radiants could handle them pretty easily. Feruchemist soldiers are better defensively but more limited offensively, and fighting offensively will run reserves out much faster and unlike Mistborn they cannot refuel quickly. Inquisitors can be made to take advantage of the strengths of both Allomancy and Feruchemy, but they lack stamina and TLR doesn't stack their abilities in a way that lets them compound. Really it takes Compounding to get enough out of the metallic arts to overcome the distinct advantages conveyed by magical armor and weapons that cannot be blocked by conventional means, wielded by people who autoheal as long as long as their fuel source holds out. Really the only function anyone without the ability to compound has in a battlefield of this nature will be to get the Radiants to burn up their Stormlight on targets that cannot really damage them in a significant way. And for that, Rosharans have regular troops too. Those non magical troops can increase their survivability with aluminum by making them immune to most emotional allomancy. Really it comes down to TLR vs Radiants. And if TLR creates more Fullborn via Hemalugy then the Radiants should be able to make use of the Fused and the Singers, as well as the Heralds, all the troops who have a direct power source not dependent on Stormlight refueling. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanLemon Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said: In a sense the numbers for the sides don't matter, at least in my mind. Of all the Scadrians and their myriad of powers, only TLR has the particular power set to significantly hurt the Radiant forces. Every other group can be checkmated by a Radiant order or orders without significant losses. That's quite the assumption you have 1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said: Koloss? Turn the ground to quicksand with cohesion and burn baby with Division. Kandra? Spren see into the CR and will easily be able to detect that the cognitive aspect of a Kandra is significantly different than that of a human and alert their Radiant to the disparity. Mistings? Not powerful enough to overcome investiture interference with someone in Shardplate. Maybe a rioter/soother could maybe manage to shift someone's mood a little bit, but I believe the Nahel bond shrugs this influence off too. See Kaladin being barred from forming a connection with Nergaoul due to his burgeoning connection with Syl. Seeing into the CR won't tell the spren anything, living things just look like glowing figures in the CR. They would have to see into the SR to be able to tell. Your assumptions with Shardplate and Mistings is flawed. The Thrill is a perfect example of how even someone in plate can have their emotions affected so Soothers/Rioters wouldn't be blocked and I can't remember anything about the Nahel bond blocking emotional manipulation at all and Dalinar was still influenced by the Thrill even when bonded to the Stormfather. Also, just because a coinshot can't affect the shardplate or shardblade directly doesn't mean they are useless, they can fire off barrages of metal to crack and break the plate from a distance. While the Koloss are simple they aren't stupid, sure a single wave would fall to that quicksand trap but they would start figuring ways around it. 1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said: Mistborn is closer to hurting a Radiant but there's an upper limit to any power output they can manage. They can spike that upper limit with duraluminum but must immediately replace that power afterwards, giving time for a counter by a Radiant outside the affected area of influence. Fighting in teams mitigates this risk somewhat but the problem is that they amount to all offense. They cannot heal from a hit from someone in armor, they cannot take a hit from a Shard weapon, they can't outmaneuver a flier. They would be a problem for squires or unarmored Radiants but full Radiants could handle them pretty easily. This is quite the assumption. Mistborn have a lot of maneuverability and unpredictability and their entire fighting style is often about not being hit. Something that is enhanced with the use of Atium. Sure they Windrunners and Skybreakers have air maneuverability advantage but what they do isn't much different than Steelpushing and Ironpulling. Their flight is just choosing which direction to fall. They also have to get close to actually hurt the Mistborn who again would likely have Atium which would give the Mistborn the advantage. As far as healing goes, yes the Radiants do have that advantage but that uses up their Stormlight which they use for everything else too. Also as has been pointed out before, only like a third at most of the Radiants are actually battle trained while all Mistborn are. 1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:  Feruchemist soldiers are better defensively but more limited offensively, and fighting offensively will run reserves out much faster and unlike Mistborn they cannot refuel quickly. Inquisitors can be made to take advantage of the strengths of both Allomancy and Feruchemy, but they lack stamina and TLR doesn't stack their abilities in a way that lets them compound. Limited offensively? They can increase their strength and speed. Shardplate isn't indestructible, Szeth was able to break it with just Stormlight and an Honorblade so I'm sure a Feruchemist tapping Strength could easily shatter it and Shadows of Self is a perfect example of just how deadly Steelrunning is. Some Inquisitors could Compound, we have a WoB on that it's just that they had to figure it out for themselves in the past. 1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said: Really it takes Compounding to get enough out of the metallic arts to overcome the distinct advantages conveyed by magical armor and weapons that cannot be blocked by conventional means, wielded by people who autoheal as long as long as their fuel source holds out. Really the only function anyone without the ability to compound has in a battlefield of this nature will be to get the Radiants to burn up their Stormlight on targets that cannot really damage them in a significant way. And for that, Rosharans have regular troops too. Those non magical troops can increase their survivability with aluminum by making them immune to most emotional allomancy. Roshar's regular troops during the Recreance were bronze age tech basically while the Final Empire was much more advanced. Also Roshar's population wouldn't be able to field anywhere near the amount of regular soldiers as the Final Empire. Also, their is no way they would even know about aluminum to use that advantage. 1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said: Really it comes down to TLR vs Radiants. And if TLR creates more Fullborn via Hemalugy then the Radiants should be able to make use of the Fused and the Singers, as well as the Heralds, all the troops who have a direct power source not dependent on Stormlight refueling. That's a poor argument for several reasons. First and foremost though is we were given a setting of The Final Empire vs Recreance era Knights Radiants. The Lord Ruler was ruling the Empire at the time so it makes sense for him to be their. The Heralds and Fused don't in any way make sense to be a part of that war. The Fused were the Radiant's enemies so they would likely side with Scadrial to exterminate the Radiants or more likely just stay out of the conflict altogether. And that's assuming their even were any Fused left on Roshar during the Recreance. The Heralds also don't make sense because they abandoned the Oathpact and the Radiants. Additionally one of the ridiculous things I keep seeing in this thread is people keep attributing amazing feats to the Radiants without any real backing from the books or WoB. We never see them do anything on those scales in the books and if they could do that then the Desolations should have never even been a problem. Take for instance the quicksand trap earlier. How would that work exactly? There were at most only a couple thousand Radiants and only at best 20% of them could Soulcast. How would they Soulcast enough quicksand to stop somewhere in the area of 200,000 Koloss? Jasnah never Soulcasts on a huge scale, not even in Oathbringer where she has basically an infinite supply of Stormlight to work off of. In Way of Kings it breaks one of her spheres to Soulcast a boulder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigmikey357 Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 @StanLemon The quicksand trap isn't using soulcating at all, but the surge of Cohesion. But to your further point Surgebinding caused the destruction of Ashyn, the original homeworld of Rosharan humanity, and the wreckage of Natanatan, current day Shattered Plains. Those are WoB's. You see the Radiants in their current poor state and believe that Thaylen City is the height of their capabilities, that's a strange assumption on your part considering that in the annals of history these people have caused planetary ecosystem phenomenon. Just the creation of Urithiru is a major engineering feat that could not possibly be accomplished without the manipulation of surges. And speaking of Thalen City, 7 Radiants plus Adolin and a handful of soldiers repelled an army that day. If they can do that with 7 people how much wreckage can they do with several thousand? The vision at Feverstone Keep was approximately the beginning of the Recreance and they had steel at the time. While we are talking about the OP premise we're talking about the height of the Radiancy pre Recreance. Regular Rosharans would have steel. And way better than bronze age technology. They would have had at least 2000 years in which to develop. Meanwhile TFE was intentionally repressed technologically per Rashek, especially military tech. The Thrill effected Dalinar because of his pre-established connection with Nergaoul. His bond to the SF came later, didn't cancel that bond and that wasn't what I was saying anyway. Kaladin was a soldier. Kaladin has killed before. Yet he never felt the Thrill at all. According to Brandon he was protected. His forming bond with Syl is likely the protection referenced. It's an assumption that the Nahel bond grants some spiritual resiliency, maybe even enough to counter a soothing, but it's not completely out of left field as you seem to suggest. Atium is an awesome tool in the Mistborn kit, yet if I were TLR with a stockpile, my Mistborn would get hardly any of it. It's super rare and would not be available on the neutral planet at all. What they bring is what they got. And it burns away way too fast. I would rather give it to myself and my inquisitors where it would be way more effective. Speaking of Mistborn, they can only fly as high or as far as their anchors allow. Windrunners aren't under that kind of limitation. Feruchemist soldiers are limited offensively because they cannot easily restore their attributes. Say I'm a Feruchemist and I stored strength, speed and health for a year in anticipation for this battle. I use up half my strength, most of my speed and all my health in a skirmish. I don't have a year to rebuild my metalminds before I'm fighting again. Trying to store on the run is less effective. And some attributes are easier to store than others so my combat performance would be consistent only until the first battle, then uneven. Koloss are stupid. Reread every battle they have been involved in. The intelligence comes from the ones controlling them. Large, strong, berserker like, can eat anything and survive. That's the advantages of a Koloss, not brains. I can do this all day, but I think I will just say dismissal of the Radiancy is a mistake, underestimating armor that at base can jump a 40ft chasm and punches that can explode skulls, underestimating an unbreakable weapon that severs swords and can slice stone like hot knives and butter, underestimating people who control various forces of nature and creation, people who have been at war for centuries, that's a mistake. I got Roshar in this conflict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanLemon Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said: @StanLemon The quicksand trap isn't using soulcating at all, but the surge of Cohesion. But to your further point Surgebinding caused the destruction of Ashyn, the original homeworld of Rosharan humanity, and the wreckage of Natanatan, current day Shattered Plains. Those are WoB's. You see the Radiants in their current poor state and believe that Thaylen City is the height of their capabilities, that's a strange assumption on your part considering that in the annals of history these people have caused planetary ecosystem phenomenon. Just the creation of Urithiru is a major engineering feat that could not possibly be accomplished without the manipulation of surges. And speaking of Thalen City, 7 Radiants plus Adolin and a handful of soldiers repelled an army that day. If they can do that with 7 people how much wreckage can they do with several thousand? Also your Cohesion clarification doesn't change anything about the absolutely absurd amounts that they would have to affect to stop the Koloss. Surges are powerful yes but I doubt the Radiants had Dawnshard level power. My guess is that the Dawnshard is the Roshar System's equivalent of what is happening with Scadrial, an advanced technology derived from the Surges. Also, are you forgetting about Thaylen cities army and the Kholin army? They were a part of that fight too, it wasn't just a handful of Radiants against an army. This clearly tells me that you are overestimating what the Radiants can do. 1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said: The vision at Feverstone Keep was approximately the beginning of the Recreance and they had steel at the time. While we are talking about the OP premise we're talking about the height of the Radiancy pre Recreance. Regular Rosharans would have steel. And way better than bronze age technology. They would have had at least 2000 years in which to develop. Meanwhile TFE was intentionally repressed technologically per Rashek, especially military tech. I don't remember them having steel but I could be wrong about that as I do need to reread Way of Kings. But it's still would be inferior to modern Roshar which for the most part is inferior to TFE technology. We don't know if they had Spanreeds back then or other Fabrials but frankly I doubt it. Developing Fabrials seems to be a thing that happened after the Radiants went away. 1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said: The Thrill effected Dalinar because of his pre-established connection with Nergaoul. His bond to the SF came later, didn't cancel that bond and that wasn't what I was saying anyway. Kaladin was a soldier. Kaladin has killed before. Yet he never felt the Thrill at all. According to Brandon he was protected. His forming bond with Syl is likely the protection referenced. It's an assumption that the Nahel bond grants some spiritual resiliency, maybe even enough to counter a soothing, but it's not completely out of left field as you seem to suggest. Darkeyes in general DON'T fill the Thrill, it's primarily a thing that affected Lighteyes. We don't really know that it had a special with Dalinar, only that Dalinar himself felt as if it was a friend. No it's not out of left field for it to dampen Soothing but it's still unlikely 1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said: Atium is an awesome tool in the Mistborn kit, yet if I were TLR with a stockpile, my Mistborn would get hardly any of it. It's super rare and would not be available on the neutral planet at all. What they bring is what they got. And it burns away way too fast. I would rather give it to myself and my inquisitors where it would be way more effective. If they can't get Atium on this neutral world then I posit that the Radiants should also be forced to bring all their Stormlight as well. It's definitely a non standard plentiful source of Investiture that isn't available on any other world we know of. That's part of the advantage of the Metalic Arts, they can be used anywhere there is metal whereas Surgebinding is dependent on an abundant source of Investiture. 1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said: Speaking of Mistborn, they can only fly as high or as far as their anchors allow. Windrunners aren't under that kind of limitation. They still need to get close to attack. So the only real advantage it gives is a better ability to withdraw 1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said: Feruchemist soldiers are limited offensively because they cannot easily restore their attributes. Say I'm a Feruchemist and I stored strength, speed and health for a year in anticipation for this battle. I use up half my strength, most of my speed and all my health in a skirmish. I don't have a year to rebuild my metalminds before I'm fighting again. Trying to store on the run is less effective. And some attributes are easier to store than others so my combat performance would be consistent only until the first battle, then uneven. As evidence by Wax & Wayne, you can store decent amounts of a trait in a relatively short amount of time. When Sazed was fighting the Koloss, his years of storing lasted hours and hours and Sazed wasn't a fighter so I doubt he knew how to be discriminate of how much to tap or how long to tap a Metalmind for a prolonged battle. 1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said: Koloss are stupid. Reread every battle they have been involved in. The intelligence comes from the ones controlling them. Large, strong, berserker like, can eat anything and survive. That's the advantages of a Koloss, not brains. They were smart enough to figure out how to make more of themselves which they could do with captured Rosharan forces. But as you said, the intelligence comes from the one controlling them, a Millennia old war lord who has conquered his whole world. 1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said: I can do this all day, but I think I will just say dismissal of the Radiancy is a mistake, underestimating armor that at base can jump a 40ft chasm and punches that can explode skulls, underestimating an unbreakable weapon that severs swords and can slice stone like hot knives and butter, underestimating people who control various forces of nature and creation, people who have been at war for centuries, that's a mistake. I got Roshar in this conflict. I don't underestimate them at all, I would say that the average Radiant would be as strong as the average Mistborn and a plated Radiant is probably stronger but you are underestimating Scadrial severely. Scadrial can field more troops, has more advanced technology, has an easier power source, has one of the most powerful beings in existence as their leader, etc. Roshar on the other hand has a fuel source that depletes even when they aren't using it and unreliable as to when it will be replaced, a good two thirds of their Radiants aren't warriors beyond likely basic training, plate that while powerful can be shattered with force that human warriors can muster albeit at heavy cost (a cost that goes down when Koloss and Pewterarms get into the occasion), and so on. And at the end of the day, Scadrial does have The Lord Ruler, once he's worn out the Radiants with his armies he would just decimate whatever was left  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said: But to your further point Surgebinding caused the destruction of Ashyn, the original homeworld of Rosharan humanity, That was a different magic system, used the Dawnshards per Honor, and Odium was an Integral part of what happened there. 3 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said: the wreckage of Natanatan, current day Shattered Plains. The WoB for this just says "great magic unleashed here" and the listener songs say that the singers didn't do it. It could have been the Heralds. It could have been the Dawnshards. It could have been any number of things we don't know about. The idea of the radiants managing it on their own is... Unsupported. 3 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said: The vision at Feverstone Keep was approximately the beginning of the Recreance and they had steel at the time. While we are talking about the OP premise we're talking about the height of the Radiancy pre Recreance. At the time of the recreance there was some steel yes. But the majority was bronze. Dalinar points out both in the vision. And the OP says pre-recreance and uses that vision to put out numbers. I took that as "just prior." if that number is their height, then the order numbers being in the "low thousands" has to include every squire as well. 3 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said: 3 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said: Atium is an awesome tool in the Mistborn kit, yet if I were TLR with a stockpile, my Mistborn would get hardly any of it. It's super rare and would not be available on the neutral planet at all. What they bring is what they got. And it burns away way too fast. I would rather give it to myself and my inquisitors where it would be way more effective.  Inquisitors are effectively Mistborn, with some feruchemical traits thrown in for fun. TLR doesn't need atium at all at the speeds he can move, beyond the levels for maintaining his age. He'd absolutely give it to the inquisitors and Mistborn, because they be able to effectively wreck anyone they come across with it. But honestly, the best method he's going to use for the Mistborn here is the same as they were used in TFE. Press them with himself and his atium fueled inquisitors, and use the Mistborn as assassins. Radiants die to blades in their sleep just like anyone else. 3 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said: Feruchemist soldiers are limited offensively because they cannot easily restore their attributes. Say I'm a Feruchemist and I stored strength, speed and health for a year in anticipation for this battle. I use up half my strength, most of my speed and all my health in a skirmish. I don't have a year to rebuild my metalminds before I'm fighting again. Trying to store on the run is less effective. And some attributes are easier to store than others so my combat performance would be consistent only until the first battle, then uneven. Considering Wax, Wayne, Sazed, and Bleeder, I think you are really underestimating what a feruchemist can do. Not that I think we'd see any of them beyond TLR and inquisitors. 3 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said: Speaking of Mistborn, they can only fly as high or as far as their anchors allow. Windrunners aren't under that kind of limitation. Seems like a reasonable tactic to me. Personally. Every moment they're to high to attack, they're wasting stormlight. And again, I think per WoBs on bullets effects of plate, you really overestimate it, and and what Radiant healing is capable of. Yes, shallan healed a crossbow bolt that lodged in her skull... It was in the brain barely, and the bone began to heal around it holding it in place, and the entire time it was lodged, the speech centers of her brain were broken. So what happens when a Mistborn/inquisitor with atium moves in close, and plants a coin through the eye socket, and the paper thin bone behind it, into the brain and then bone and eye heal over? I'm still of the opinion from the deleted Jasnah scene that destroying the brain will just kill a Radiant outright, but it's not Canon, so let's assume it's wrong. What happens? Cause I really don't think that radiants going to keep fighting, and the longer they stay down from that the less stormlight they have. And radiants are used to rushing into the fight and shrugging projectiles that aren't boulders off. I think coins that strike with the force a coin is capable of are going to surprise them at how quickly it breaks their plate... Which again shouldn't run off gems, but off the radiants stormlight. 3 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said: underestimating armor that at base can jump a 40ft chasm 40 foot? The bridges themselves are only 30 and they have to have overlap so as not to fall. Widest gaps the bridges tried should have had a few feet of overlap on both sides to keep then from being pushed back in the chasms easily, and this ones, when shardbearers leapt where dangerous for how close to the edge they were to the point that the Parshendi would risk themselves to push them of the ledge before they could actually wade into battle. Edit: For reference Ben McSweeney's drawing of a bridge from this WoB https://wob.coppermind.net/events/131/#e3967 Edited October 18, 2019 by Calderis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigmikey357 Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 5 hours ago, Calderis said: The WoB for this just says "great magic unleashed here" and the listener songs say that the singers didn't do it. It could have been the Heralds. It could have been the Dawnshards. It could have been any number of things we don't know about. The idea of the radiants managing it on their own is... Unsupported Unsupported but not unreasonable. And if Dawnshard or Heralds they should be in play for this scenario.  5 hours ago, Calderis said: Considering Wax, Wayne, Sazed, and Bleeder, I think you are really underestimating what a feruchemist can do. Not that I think we'd see any of them beyond TLR and inquisitors. A couple of twinborn that aren't applicable in this scenario, a Kandra who did a lot of damage but ran out of speed with no way to get it back quickly at a pivotal moment, and a full Feruchemist who spent a year storing his combat attributes and used them all up in an afternoon. Never said they couldn't be devastating, just that reloading takes time they may not have. Allomancers swallow a vial of metal and are reloaded. Radiants inhale and are reloaded. A Feruchemist has to leave the battlefield to recharge or get their heads caved in.  5 hours ago, Calderis said: 40 foot? The bridges themselves are only 30 and they have to have overlap so as not to fall. Widest gaps the bridges tried should have had a few feet of overlap on both sides to keep then from being pushed back in the chasms easily, and this ones, when shardbearers leapt where dangerous for how close to the edge they were to the point that the Parshendi would risk themselves to push them of the ledge before they could actually wade into battle. Whether 20 feet or 40, still that weight of armor spring jumping over the heads of soldiers, these feats of strength and agility in what is essentially a quarter ton of armor is not something to be looked at lightly. The average peuterarm ain't pulling that off, nor a Feruchemist thug.  5 hours ago, Calderis said: And again, I think per WoBs on bullets effects of plate, you really overestimate it, and and what Radiant healing is capable of. A coin is not a bullet. A small piece of metal moving at incredible speed could be effective, but a bullet is shaped to penetrate while a coin is not. All instances of coin usage came against unprotected flesh, not armor. I think you all are overestimating the power of a coin projectile. Now if it's aided by a duraluminum push then we're talking, but a run of the mill coinshot trying to push against armor will fly back. Your Mistborn troops and some of your Inquisitors will be able to use this trick, not all. And it's not like Radiants can't pull that same trick with lashings.  7 hours ago, StanLemon said: Darkeyes in general DON'T fill the Thrill, it's primarily a thing that affected Lighteyes. We don't really know that it had a special with Dalinar, only that Dalinar himself felt as if it was a friend. No it's not out of left field for it to dampen Soothing but it's still unlikely I need to see a reference on this because I don't believe that is a true statement. It doesn't even make sense.  7 hours ago, StanLemon said: If they can't get Atium on this neutral world then I posit that the Radiants should also be forced to bring all their Stormlight as well. It's definitely a non standard plentiful source of Investiture that isn't available on any other world we know of. That's part of the advantage of the Metalic Arts, they can be used anywhere there is metal whereas Surgebinding is dependent on an abundant source of Investiture. How would Scadrians mine a godmetal native to their world and their world only? Of course they gotta take it with them. However in this scenario if their is no way to replenish Stormlight allowed then we might as well not have the scenario.  7 hours ago, StanLemon said: I don't underestimate them at all, I would say that the average Radiant would be as strong as the average Mistborn and a plated Radiant is probably stronger but you are underestimating Scadrial severely. Scadrial can field more troops, has more advanced technology, has an easier power source, has one of the most powerful beings in existence as their leader, etc. Roshar on the other hand has a fuel source that depletes even when they aren't using it and unreliable as to when it will be replaced, a good two thirds of their Radiants aren't warriors beyond likely basic training, plate that while powerful can be shattered with force that human warriors can muster albeit at heavy cost (a cost that goes down when Koloss and Pewterarms get into the occasion), and so on How in the world do you figure that Scadrian tech out performs Rosharan tech when TLR repressed technological advances for a millennia? When the Scadrians don't use metal weapons of any kind since it's a disadvantage against steel/iron users? What's a glass knife going to do versus power armor? When Roshar has been in near constant warfare for 2000 years? Spanreeds are a relatively new invention but you think they didn't have fabrials at all before the Recreance? Really? Scadrians are still using candlelight for heaven's sake but their tech is better? Come on. Their great leader hasn't had to fight a worthy opponent for 800 years, his non allomantic troops are malnourished, underprivileged slaves without much will to fight, his metalborn can be checkmated in numerous ways. 6 hours ago, Calderis said: But honestly, the best method he's going to use for the Mistborn here is the same as they were used in TFE. Press them with himself and his atium fueled inquisitors, and use the Mistborn as assassins. Radiants die to blades in their sleep just like anyone else. That's the most sensible strategy they could muster, but it's one Radiants can use too, if by different methods. Lightweaver sneaks into camp, infiltration and knives in the dark. And Inquisitors sleep much more than Radiants. Since they're the only ones immune to illusions and can cause the most damage outside TLR then those guys are my number 1 priority. And every Inquisitor TLR makes takes at least 1 metalborn off the table, often several. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gisaku75 Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 16 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said: That's the most sensible strategy they could muster, but it's one Radiants can use too, if by different methods. Lightweaver sneaks into camp, infiltration and knives in the dark. And Inquisitors sleep much more than Radiants. Since they're the only ones immune to illusions and can cause the most damage outside TLR then those guys are my number 1 priority. And every Inquisitor TLR makes takes at least 1 metalborn off the table, often several. I do not agree. On coppermind it is specified that a Seeker is able to perceive the active use of the investiture so a Lightweaver approaching the enemy camp would be immediately discovered. Probably even a Tineye could do it, the illusions of a lightweaver are perfect to deceive the normal senses. But they don't necessarily work as well with the enhanced senses of an Allomancer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 21 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said: And if Dawnshard or Heralds they should be in play for this scenario. It's pre-recreance, not pre-aharietiam 23 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said: A couple of twinborn that aren't applicable in this scenario, Not the point I'm making. You speak as though they're going to run through their attributes in moments. When evidence points to that bit being the case. 24 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said: a Kandra who did a lot of damage but ran out of speed with no way to get it back quickly at a pivotal moment, Yes. Who did an amazing amount of steel running for only having the ability for a couple weeks. 26 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said: Whether 20 feet or 40, still that weight of armor spring jumping over the heads of soldiers, these feats of strength and agility in what is essentially a quarter ton of armor is not something to be looked at lightly. The average peuterarm ain't pulling that off, nor a Feruchemist thug. The thug (which is a pewter misting) isn't, no. The Feruchemist absolutely could. And the armor doesn't help them one wit against atium. Or TLR. Or inquisitors, who I have to remind you, only used obsidian weapons because metal was able to be pushed. That's not a concern against radiants. And at a word of explanation from TLR are already almost the "additional Fullborn" you keep saying that Scadrial would need. 33 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said: I think you all are overestimating the power of a coin projectile. We're really not. The math has been done multiple times (I hate this site's search function BTW or if just quote it). A bullet fires from the chamber of a gun and then continually loses momentum due to drag. The shape of the bullet does aid piercing, but it's as much about ae aerodynamics to minimize drag. A coin, on the other hand is going to launch slower... But the force applied is consistent out to a point and then continues at a diminishing rate. The constant acceleration the coin gets means that its quickly going to be moving at a at a higher velocity, with more force than a bullet of the same mass. And considering the mundane weapon of choice against plate is hammers, that's probably not a drawback as "piercing" only seems to be a real advantage if you can manage to make it through in one strike. Duralumin isn't necessary. 51 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said: How in the world do you figure that Scadrian tech out performs Rosharan tech when TLR repressed technological advances for a millennia? He only suppressed specific technologies. Not all of them. They're metallurgy was extremely advanced for their average tech level. 54 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said: When the Scadrians don't use metal weapons of any kind since it's a disadvantage against steel/iron users? What's a glass knife going to do versus power armor? Hazekillers were specially trained and specific troops to fight Allomancers. There was plenty of armor and metal weaponry. There was one point the Kel used a man armor to pull himself up a wall at a run. Glass knives were a Mistborn weapon if choice because if they were fighting, it would be another Mistborn. Inquisitors used obsidian for similar reasons. There was no shortage of metal. 57 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said: When Roshar has been in near constant warfare for 2000 years? No, it hasn't. The Desolations at this time period ended roughly 2000 years Ars ago, and this new event just before the recreance, "the False Desolation," has no Fused. Just regal forms and voidlight granted by BAM. 1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said: Spanreeds are a relatively new invention but you think they didn't have fabrials at all before the Recreance? Modern Fabrial Tech as a whole appears to be a new development. The only fabrials we've seen from the ancient days are regrowth fabrials, soulcasters, the oathgates... And Urithiru. The newer fabrials seem to work on completely different principles. 1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said: That's the most sensible strategy they could muster, but it's one Radiants can use too, if by different methods. Lightweaver sneaks into camp, infiltration and knives in the dark. And Inquisitors sleep much more than Radiants. Since they're the only ones immune to illusions and can cause the most damage outside TLR then those guys are my number 1 priority. And every Inquisitor TLR makes takes at least 1 metalborn off the table, often several. Uh, that isn't actually the case. Quote Brandon Sanderson By the way, you probably remember form book one the way that Inquisitors see. They have such a subtle touch with Steel and Iron, and their lines, that they can see via the trace metals in everyone's bodies and in the objects around them. The thing is, any Allomancer with access to iron or steel could learn to do this. Some have figured it out, in the past, but in current times, nobody–at least, nobody the heroes know–is aware of this. Except, of course, for Marsh. And he chose not to share it. The Well of Ascension Annotations (Nov. 11, 2007) Every iron and steel misting could be taught how to do that the moment they know illusions are a thing. Metal sight does not require spikes. It's why I argued that TLR should be just as immune from the start. Between that and seekers... Still wondering how exactly a few adiant heals a coin out of the heir brain cavity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 (edited) 19 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said: Maybe a rioter/soother could maybe manage to shift someone's mood a little bit, but I believe the Nahel bond shrugs this influence off too. See Kaladin being barred from forming a connection with Nergaoul due to his burgeoning connection with Syl. The shardplate due to its native investment would protect the shardbearer and radiant from soothing and rioting. edit: having difficulty locating the WoB I am thinking of, so at this stage this might be incorrect. 18 hours ago, StanLemon said: Seeing into the CR won't tell the spren anything, living things just look like glowing figures in the CR. They would have to see into the SR to be able to tell. True regarding spren, though elsecallers or lightweavers touching the soulflame would get an impression of the person as we have seen in the books. So they could touch the flame to confirm. Quote Your assumptions with Shardplate and Mistings is flawed. The Thrill is a perfect example of how even someone in plate can have their emotions affected so Soothers/Rioters wouldn't be blocked and I can't remember anything about the Nahel bond blocking emotional manipulation at all and Dalinar was still influenced by the Thrill even when bonded to the Stormfather. We have confirmation via WoB that Kaladin's bond with Syl helped insulate him from the thrill. We also have WoB that soothers and rioters would have trouble pushing through the investiture envelop that a shardplate provides. If you will like and give me some time, I can pull up both WoB for you. Quote Also, just because a coinshot can't affect the shardplate or shardblade directly doesn't mean they are useless, they can fire off barrages of metal to crack and break the plate from a distance. This I agree with. I do not know how radiant plate will fair, but we do know that bullets fired from guns, or coinshots repeatedly to the same place can shatter dead shardplate. Quote While the Koloss are simple they aren't stupid, sure a single wave would fall to that quicksand trap but they would start figuring ways around it. Those Koloss trapped are still taken out of the fight though which I do not think is without consequence. Quote This is quite the assumption. Mistborn have a lot of maneuverability and unpredictability and their entire fighting style is often about not being hit. This maneurverbility on flight relies on metal to push and pull on. Unless they use a duralumin push or pull everytime in order to use the radiant armor/shardblade to push and pull off of, if they are fighting on a plane, once in air they will need to reply on the metal of the general soldiers to re-position while the radiants would not. Quote Sure they Windrunners and Skybreakers have air maneuverability advantage but what they do isn't much different than Steelpushing and Ironpulling. It is different in that the windrunners and skybreakers can choose any direction at any time, at any strength. For mistborn there is a peak to their push and pulls unless they use duralumin. Quote They also have to get close to actually hurt the Mistborn Windrunners could fly over and drop boulders with increase gravitational pull down. The mistborn would dodge, but it would be devastating to the koloss and general infantry. We have already seen in the novels how devastating siege weapons can be on koloss. Quote who again would likely have Atium which would give the Mistborn the advantage. I agree, this is a huge advantage. Quote As far as healing goes, yes the Radiants do have that advantage but that uses up their Stormlight which they use for everything else too. I agree. The radiants would need a steady way to resupply, and would need further stormlight efficiency from higher level of oaths. Potentially the bondsmiths could recharge or super charge them during the fights which would push things in Roshar's favor. Quote Also as has been pointed out before, only like a third at most of the Radiants are actually battle trained while all Mistborn are. If you are going on that logic, then it should be pointed out that mistborn are only trained for assassination style combat, while all radiants are trained as a military organization for global war. Quote Limited offensively? They can increase their strength and speed. Shardplate isn't indestructible, Szeth was able to break it with just Stormlight and an Honorblade so I'm sure a Feruchemist tapping Strength could easily shatter it and Shadows of Self is a perfect example of just how deadly Steelrunning is. Yes but unless you are a compounder, you will only have so much to draw upon before it runs out. Sazed had been storing for years and it lasted hours at the level he was drawing on. Wax had been storing weight constantly, and crushing the floor after the explosion nearly drained all his stores. He had to go to storing constantly again to even build up a bit. Quote Some Inquisitors could Compound, we have a WoB on that it's just that they had to figure it out for themselves in the past. Good point. Quote Roshar's regular troops during the Recreance were bronze age tech basically while the Final Empire was much more advanced. I believe it was pointed out that the OP said prior to the Recreance. The regular troops only had bronze age tech because of the continual desolations sending them back to that age due to the destruction. Quote Also Roshar's population wouldn't be able to field anywhere near the amount of regular soldiers as the Final Empire. That is incorrect. Scadrial is the least populated planet that we have seen so far. Roshar is the second largest, with Sel being the most.  wackyHair What's the population of the shardworld's we've seen so far (even in very general terms, like one's much bigger than the others or something)? Brandon Sanderson Scadrial is certainly the least populated of the major shard worlds. Then Nalthis, I'd guess, followed by Roshar, and finally Sel--which likely has the largest population. I would have to look closely to see which is bigger between those last two. Phantine Does a population of about 100 million during The Final Empire (with 1-2 million in Luthadel), and around 15 million during Alloy of Law (with about 5 million in Elendel) seem right? Brandon Sanderson Have to RAFO this for now, for reasons I can't explain without giving spoilers. Phantine How about as far as Elend/Wax knows, at the beginning of their respective series? Brandon Sanderson Then those numbers, if they're off, are at least close. faragorn Interesting that Sel has such a large population, given that the actual numbers of soldiers shown seem to be quite small. Brandon Sanderson Let's just say that Opelon has an inflated opinion of its own size in relation to the rest of the world. Footnote: The RAFO about the Scadrian population may be due to the existence of the Southerners, which had not been revealed as of this time./r/books AMA 2015 (June 8, 2015) Quote Also, their is no way they would even know about aluminum to use that advantage. Shallan had an aluminum necklace. Quote That's a poor argument for several reasons. First and foremost though is we were given a setting of The Final Empire vs Recreance era Knights Radiants. Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought it was prior to the recreance? Quote The Lord Ruler was ruling the Empire at the time so it makes sense for him to be their. The Heralds and Fused don't in any way make sense to be a part of that war. It does if it was before the recreance.  Quote And that's assuming their even were any Fused left on Roshar during the Recreance. The Heralds also don't make sense because they abandoned the Oathpact and the Radiants. Again if the timeline is prior to the recreance, then the heralds would still be a thing Quote Additionally one of the ridiculous things I keep seeing in this thread is people keep attributing amazing feats to the Radiants without any real backing from the books or WoB. We never see them do anything on those scales in the books and if they could do that then the Desolations should have never even been a problem.Take for instance the quicksand trap earlier. How would that work exactly? There were at most only a couple thousand Radiants and only at best 20% of them could Soulcast. How would they Soulcast enough quicksand to stop somewhere in the area of 200,000 Koloss? Jasnah never Soulcasts on a huge scale, not even in Oathbringer where she has basically an infinite supply of Stormlight to work off of. In Way of Kings it breaks one of her spheres to Soulcast a boulder. This is a logical fallacy I keep seeing pop up. We have not seen anywhere near the level of forces Odium could bring to bear. We have not see a fully oathed radiant in action. And we have not seen a herald in action while honor was alive to fuel their honorblades. So taking what a third oathed windrunner can do as the full extent is false. As is mentioned later, cohesion was referenced, which we do see used in that manner (the knight in the vision, and Amaram). Jasnah soulcasted an entire sheet of rock to oil to then ignite it. Now the next response is going to be "well that was when the realms were brought together by Dalinar!". It was stated there would be three bondsmiths. It is still murky how much of what Dalinar did was a bondsmith ability, or a function of bonding the cognitive shadow of tanavast. However we do know Dalinar can recharge spheres again, and can also augment radiant abilities. So all I am pointing out is the radiant options are not as limited as you posit. 15 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said: @StanLemon Just the creation of Urithiru is a major engineering feat that could not possibly be accomplished without the manipulation of surges. I would really love to learn how they made Urthiru. My theory is soulcasters soulcasted the rock, and stonewards shaped it. Quote Atium is an awesome tool in the Mistborn kit, yet if I were TLR with a stockpile, my Mistborn would get hardly any of it. It's super rare and would not be available on the neutral planet at all. What they bring is what they got. And it burns away way too fast. I would rather give it to myself and my inquisitors where it would be way more effective. True atium burns quickly, but while used it is very effective. I do not think it would turn the tide by itself, but is a very powerful weapon for Scadrial Quote Speaking of Mistborn, they can only fly as high or as far as their anchors allow. Windrunners aren't under that kind of limitation. I agree Quote Feruchemist soldiers are limited offensively because they cannot easily restore their attributes. Say I'm a Feruchemist and I stored strength, speed and health for a year in anticipation for this battle. I use up half my strength, most of my speed and all my health in a skirmish. I don't have a year to rebuild my metalminds before I'm fighting again. Trying to store on the run is less effective. And some attributes are easier to store than others so my combat performance would be consistent only until the first battle, then uneven. I agree Quote Koloss are stupid. Reread every battle they have been involved in. The intelligence comes from the ones controlling them. Large, strong, berserker like, can eat anything and survive. That's the advantages of a Koloss, not brains. I agree  13 hours ago, StanLemon said: Also your Cohesion clarification doesn't change anything about the absolutely absurd amounts that they would have to affect to stop the Koloss. Surges are powerful yes but I doubt the Radiants had Dawnshard level power. My guess is that the Dawnshard is the Roshar System's equivalent of what is happening with Scadrial, an advanced technology derived from the Surges. From what we have seen from the vision and Amaram, it does not take much to change rock to mud and then let it solidify. Quote Also, are you forgetting about Thaylen cities army and the Kholin army? They were a part of that fight too, it wasn't just a handful of Radiants against an army. This clearly tells me that you are overestimating what the Radiants can do. This is not accurate. The thunderclast made a breach in the wall that some of the troops got through. Shallan held off the majority of the soldiers with her illusions while Jasnah closed the breach, and then reinforcements arrived to finish off the troops within the walls. So Jasnah, Renarin, and Shallan kept the forces busy till more showed up. Kaladin was busy defending Dalinar, Dalinar was busy with the Thrill, and Szeth and Lift were busy with the King's drop. Quote I don't remember them having steel but I could be wrong about that as I do need to reread Way of Kings. But it's still would be inferior to modern Roshar which for the most part is inferior to TFE technology. We don't know if they had Spanreeds back then or other Fabrials but frankly I doubt it. Developing Fabrials seems to be a thing that happened after the Radiants went away. Developing non-radiant fabrials does seen to be new, but based on the visions, we know radiant fabrials were a thing and were definitely used. Quote Darkeyes in general DON'T fill the Thrill, it's primarily a thing that affected Lighteyes. We don't really know that it had a special with Dalinar, only that Dalinar himself felt as if it was a friend. No it's not out of left field for it to dampen Soothing but it's still unlikely Do you have WoB or in book sources that the Thrill does not effect Darkeyes? This is the first I am hearing of it. Quote If they can't get Atium on this neutral world then I posit that the Radiants should also be forced to bring all their Stormlight as well. It's definitely a non standard plentiful source of Investiture that isn't available on any other world we know of. That's part of the advantage of the Metalic Arts, they can be used anywhere there is metal whereas Surgebinding is dependent on an abundant source of Investiture. That was the arguments pushed forward earlier in this thread already. That the Radiants would have a more limited supply than Scadrial because Scadrial can use any metal, while Roshar relies on stormlight. Though I would like to point out that there would be three bondsmiths that can reinfuse and augment the radiants. Quote They still need to get close to attack. So the only real advantage it gives is a better ability to withdraw The windrunners fighting mistborn in flight yes would need to get close. The skybreakers with division on the other hand would not. Quote As evidence by Wax & Wayne, you can store decent amounts of a trait in a relatively short amount of time. When Sazed was fighting the Koloss, his years of storing lasted hours and hours and Sazed wasn't a fighter so I doubt he knew how to be discriminate of how much to tap or how long to tap a Metalmind for a prolonged battle. Wax stores a large chunk of his weight at all times. When during a battle would a gold ferring be able to store almost all his or her health? A steel ferring all of his or her speed? Wax could still walk around and fight with a large chunk of his weight stored. That even helped him in many situations. How would someone being sickly due to storing health be beneficial and still be able to fight? How would someone moving extra slowly due to storing speed be beneficial and still be able to fight? Quote They were smart enough to figure out how to make more of themselves which they could do with captured Rosharan forces. But as you said, the intelligence comes from the one controlling them, a Millennia old war lord who has conquered his whole world. The controller has to actively control them. Otherwise they do whatever they were told last, which usually involves pointing them in the direction of the enemy. Otherwise they just stand in place, like what happened with the siege weapons. Vin and Elend got distracted, so the koloss just stood in place while rocks rained down killing a large portion of them. Quote I don't underestimate them at all, I would say that the average Radiant would be as strong as the average Mistborn Unless you mean this statement to include atium, I disagree. Quote Scadrial can field more troops This is false Quote has more advanced technology True. Quote has an easier power source Depends on the bondsmiths. Quote has one of the most powerful beings in existence as their leader True, though then I say it is not balanced by not allowing Roshar to have the heralds. Quote Roshar on the other hand has a fuel source that depletes even when they aren't using it and unreliable as to when it will be replaced Bondsmiths could handle this potentially Quote a good two thirds of their Radiants aren't warriors beyond likely basic training The Knights Radiant was a military organization. Those that did not fight, were due to their own choice, not their powers. Quote plate that while powerful can be shattered with force that human warriors can muster albeit at heavy cost (a cost that goes down when Koloss and Pewterarms get into the occasion), and so on. That is dead plate. We do not know with radiant plate. The closest we have seen is as Calderis mentioned, the midnight essence scratching it. But as we do not have a metric on the midnight essence's abilities, we do not know if their claws are especially sharp to do so, or would be like a standard mundane weapon. Quote And at the end of the day, Scadrial does have The Lord Ruler I agree. The Lord Ruler is the main issue here. I think if he was not included, Roshar would win. 11 hours ago, Calderis said: That was a different magic system, used the Dawnshards per Honor, and Odium was an Integral part of what happened there. The WoB for this just says "great magic unleashed here" and the listener songs say that the singers didn't do it. It could have been the Heralds. It could have been the Dawnshards. It could have been any number of things we don't know about. The idea of the radiants managing it on their own is... Unsupported. I agree. Right now we just do not know. Quote And the OP says pre-recreance and uses that vision to put out numbers. I took that as "just prior." if that number is their height, then the order numbers being in the "low thousands" has to include every squire as well. Well this is where I agree a WoB is ambiguous. Jasnah states Shallan is not a knight radiant because she does not have her armor yet, which is at least 4th oath correct? We do not know if Jasnah's assertion is an accurate definition or not. If Brandon shared her definition, then those low thousands would be all radiant knights of at least 4th oath. However we do not know what he terms as a radiant, so we cannot say. However we can also say spren bond children, as we see with Shallan, and bond elderly as we see with Syl, so the radiant numbers would fall into the same issue as I mentioned with metal born. Some are going to be too young to fight, and some are going to be too old to fight. Though I would say the radiants would have a wider age range to draw upon than the metal born. Only pewter thugs and gold ferrings would potentially be able to fight younger than most, and older than most, while all orders get the same base boosts from stormlight being increased speed, slight increase in strength, endurance, and healing. So as we see with Lift, even though she is under age, she can do pretty well for herself with stormlight, and as we see with Dalinar, even though he is on the older side, he can do pretty well for himself with stormlight. Quote Inquisitors are effectively Mistborn, with some feruchemical traits thrown in for fun. I agree, though with the Lord Ruler included and the Heralds excluded, does it really matter either way? Quote TLR doesn't need atium at all at the speeds he can move, beyond the levels for maintaining his age. He'd absolutely give it to the inquisitors and Mistborn, because they be able to effectively wreck anyone they come across with it. I agree he would give atium to the inquisitors and mistborn. It is a powerful weapon. But if the Lord Ruler is not included, I do not think it would be a auto win button for team Scadrial. But since the Lord Ruler is included my point is moot Quote But honestly, the best method he's going to use for the Mistborn here is the same as they were used in TFE. Press them with himself and his atium fueled inquisitors, and use the Mistborn as assassins. Radiants die to blades in their sleep just like anyone else. I agree Quote Considering Wax, Wayne, Sazed, and Bleeder, I think you are really underestimating what a feruchemist can do. Not that I think we'd see any of them beyond TLR and inquisitors. They can be very effective. In the short run. But I believe the point being made is after the initial volley, their stores would be in a worse situation than is suggested would happen to the radiants with stormlight. The lord ruler would have to pace his use of the feruchemists, so while using some, the others could be focused on storing. Which is a valid strategy, but then it limits the numbers you can bring to bear. Quote Seems like a reasonable tactic to me. Personally. Every moment they're to high to attack, they're wasting stormlight. Skybreakers could attack at range with division. Quote And again, I think per WoBs on bullets effects of plate, you really overestimate it, and what Radiant healing is capable of. Unless I recall incorrectly, those WoB is regarding dead shardplate. Not radiant plate. I do not think, other than the vision you mentioned, we have any metric to judge the durability of radiant shardplate. Quote Yes, shallan healed a crossbow bolt that lodged in her skull... It was in the brain barely, and the bone began to heal around it holding it in place, and the entire time it was lodged, the speech centers of her brain were broken. So what happens when a Mistborn/inquisitor with atium moves in close, and plants a coin through the eye socket, and the paper thin bone behind it, into the brain and then bone and eye heal over? Interesting idea. Though it would be a gamble each time for the coin to remain lodged in the right place to impede functions right? Plenty of people over history have had bullets, whole poles and what not driven through their skull, and not been any worse for wear. One of the many off the top of my head didn't even realize he got shot in the head, and lived for years with it lodged in there non the wiser till he started to suffer from symptoms of metal poisoning, and then they discovered it. I do not think the way atium functions, would allow the misting or inquisitor to place the coin in the right place in the brain. It would help them aim to shoot the coin into the eye slit, because they would know where the head would be, and when, but I think knowing where to place a coin in a brain every time to impede auto functions is a bridge to far. Quote I'm still of the opinion from the deleted Jasnah scene that destroying the brain will just kill a Radiant outright, but it's not Canon, so let's assume it's wrong. What happens? Cause I really don't think that radiants going to keep fighting, and the longer they stay down from that the less stormlight they have. Pewter thugs die from the same thing. So really you are only talking gold ferrings/gold compounders. Otherwise everyone else dies just as easily or easier than the radiants. Quote And radiants are used to rushing into the fight and shrugging projectiles that aren't boulders off. I think coins that strike with the force a coin is capable of are going to surprise them at how quickly it breaks their plate... Which again shouldn't run off gems, but off the radiants stormlight. We do not know how radiant plate works. I know your theory, and I have heard other theories, but regardless we do not know how living radiant plate functions other than the vision you mentioned. 4 hours ago, Gisaku75 said: I do not agree. On coppermind it is specified that a Seeker is able to perceive the active use of the investiture so a Lightweaver approaching the enemy camp would be immediately discovered. Probably even a Tineye could do it, the illusions of a lightweaver are perfect to deceive the normal senses. But they don't necessarily work as well with the enhanced senses of an Allomancer. A seeker with training is able to perceive active uses of investiture. The screamers in Kholinar discover kaladin's use of gravitation, but not Shallan's use of illusion. The in world characters can at best reason that Shallan's illusions are "quieter" than Kaladin's gravitation. So we do not know how a seeker will interact with a Lightweavers illusions. For all we know a seeker has to focus really hard and flare their metals to see the barest ripple of illusion, which would be rather difficult during wild scale conflict. 4 hours ago, Calderis said: Not the point I'm making. You speak as though they're going to run through their attributes in moments. When evidence points to that bit being the case. Sazed had years of strength he never used. In order to increase his strength to fight the koloss he drained it all in one attack. Unless you are stating there will be one sortie and that is it, then the subsequent clashes would see diminishing returns for the feruchemists. Quote Yes. Who did an amazing amount of steel running for only having the ability for a couple weeks. I thought there were theories that Paalm compounded to get those stores, or she was using the stores that were already made by the woman she killed to take the abilities from? There is a WoB that confirmed so long as you were burning a metal mind that identity is you, you could get the feruchemical trait out, which is why if you spiked out feruchemical gold from miles, he could still burn his metal minds with allomancy to heal back his feruchemy. So Paalm could have theoretically used a spike to have the ability to store speed into a metal mind. Then swapped to the spike for steel allomancy. I believe the only issue is then storing that speed into fresh metal minds, but I will need to pull up the theory to find out more. Quote The thug (which is a pewter misting) isn't, no. The Feruchemist absolutely could. The ferrings ability to increase strength also increase muscle mass. If getting big muscles were alone enough to get you to jump far, then long jump olympics should be body builders. But they are not. Quote And the armor doesn't help them one wit against atium. Not sure the coin to the brain trick is always going to work perfectly, and atium does burn quickly. Quote Or TLR. True Quote Or inquisitors if they can compound, true. Quote who I have to remind you, only used obsidian weapons because metal was able to be pushed. That's not a concern against radiants. And at a word of explanation from TLR are already almost the "additional Fullborn" you keep saying that Scadrial would need. They were not close to fullborn. it was after the lord ruler died, and ruin decked them out with further spikes that they got closer. But most standard inquisitors of the lord ruler had health feruchemy. Quote We're really not. The math has been done multiple times (I hate this site's search function BTW or if just quote it). A bullet fires from the chamber of a gun and then continually loses momentum due to drag. The shape of the bullet does aid piercing, but it's as much about ae aerodynamics to minimize drag. A coin, on the other hand is going to launch slower... But the force applied is consistent out to a point and then continues at a diminishing rate. The constant acceleration the coin gets means that its quickly going to be moving at a at a higher velocity, with more force than a bullet of the same mass. And considering the mundane weapon of choice against plate is hammers, that's probably not a drawback as "piercing" only seems to be a real advantage if you can manage to make it through in one strike. Again, that is dead plate. We do not know regarding radiant plate. Quote He only suppressed specific technologies. Not all of them. They're metallurgy was extremely advanced for their average tech level. But they did not have guns. That was one of the technologies the Lord Ruler suppressed. If we are going with during the lord ruler's rule, then they would have bows, arrows, and swords. if you are going off of Era 2, then you can mentioned guns. Quote Hazekillers were specially trained and specific troops to fight Allomancers. There was plenty of armor and metal weaponry. There was one point the Kel used a man armor to pull himself up a wall at a run. Glass knives were a Mistborn weapon if choice because if they were fighting, it would be another Mistborn. Inquisitors used obsidian for similar reasons. There was no shortage of metal. I agree. Quote No, it hasn't. The Desolations at this time period ended roughly 2000 years Ars ago, and this new event just before the recreance, "the False Desolation," has no Fused. Just regal forms and voidlight granted by BAM. You do not know that. We know very little of the false desolation. We do not know how many forms were used. What they did. and so on. Quote Modern Fabrial Tech as a whole appears to be a new development. The only fabrials we've seen from the ancient days are regrowth fabrials, soulcasters, the oathgates... And Urithiru. The only fabrial tech we know is radiant surge fabrials. That does not mean just because we only saw three types, that the other 7 did not exist. Quote The newer fabrials seem to work on completely different principles. Potentially. Quote Uh, that isn't actually the case. Inquisitors do need to rest more often. It was mentioned in the books and via WoB. I do know it is because storing health takes longer for them since its through hemalurgy, but (this part I am not sure of) I thought it said also hemalurgy is taxing and they need to recover more. Quote Every iron and steel misting could be taught how to do that the moment they know illusions are a thing. Shallan began to be able to give her illusions substance. As far as we know they could fake that. But lets say they can't. Put metal dust interwoven in your mostly physical illusions and they trick the steel vision. Quote Between that and seekers... Already commented on this. Quote Still wondering how exactly a few adiant heals a coin out of the heir brain cavity. Still wondering how that coin is placed exactly where it needs to be every single time, even with atium.   Now one final point of clarity. I am of the belief that as long as the Lord Ruler is included and the Heralds are excluded, the scenario unfairly favors Scadrial, so I believe Scadrial will win. As you can see throughout my post I have agreed and disagreed in equal measure with both sides of the argument. I am only commenting not to say one will win over the other. I am commenting on the arguments themselves. I am trying to add information to the discussion. Edited October 18, 2019 by Pathfinder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: That is incorrect. Scadrial is the least populated planet that we have seen so far. Roshar is the second largest, with Sel being the most. Since that WoB is from 2015, it would be referring to Scadrial during the Era 2 period. Scadrial was much more populated during Era 1, and hasn't recovered even a decent fraction of its population yet. Quote Again if the timeline is prior to the recreance, then the heralds would still be a thing I think you're getting the Recreance and Aharietiam confused. The Heralds walked away at Aharietiam, ~2000 years before the Recreance. So neither the Fused nor the Heralds would be in play during that time. Quote They can be very effective. In the short run. But I believe the point being made is after the initial volley, their stores would be in a worse situation than is suggested would happen to the radiants with stormlight. The lord ruler would have to pace his use of the feruchemists, so while using some, the others could be focused on storing. Which is a valid strategy, but then it limits the numbers you can bring to bear. He would likely have a group of compounders with F-aluminum creating unkeyed metalminds to give to his troops. Edited October 18, 2019 by RShara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 8 minutes ago, RShara said: Since that WoB is from 2015, it would be referring to Scadrial during the Era 2 period. Scadrial was much more populated during Era 1, and hasn't recovered even a decent fraction of its population yet. Each of the Highprince armies fielded about 10,000 mentioned in the novels. 10 high princes is 100,000. Soldiers have been sent to the shattered plains for 6 years to maintain that number. There are still enough solders back at Alethkar to be thrown away on border disputes. That does not count the rest of the population of children to young to fight and elderly too old to fight which the 100 million for Scadrial includes. Finally that is for Alethkar only. If we were to divide Roshar up equally, Roshar makes up 1/6th of the continent. Unless you can provide me with more concrete numbers that dispute that WoB and show Roshar to be less populated than Scadrial, other than you feel it is too early and must be referring to the time period you assume, I will go with that estimate. 8 minutes ago, RShara said: I think you're getting the Recreance and Aharietiam confused. The Heralds walked away at Aharietiam, ~2000 years before the Recreance. So neither the Fused nor the Heralds would be in play during that time. The heralds were still very much on Roshar during that time. In prior posts both you and Calderis have stated they could not get out of the Roshar system, and we see the Heralds still having an effect on the world, so they were very much still a thing. 8 minutes ago, RShara said: He would likely have a group of compounders with F-aluminum creating unkeyed metalminds to give to his troops. So we must go exactly how the book says for some things, but then we can say this is likely or that is not likely for others? The Lord Ruler did not have compounders as of Era 1. If the Heralds cannot come to play because they were not actively fighting on Roshar, than neither can the compounders that were not made in Era 1 by the Lord Ruler. Fairs fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigmikey357 Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 4 hours ago, Calderis said: He only suppressed specific technologies. Not all of them. They're metallurgy was extremely advanced for their average tech level. One of the technologies he specifically repressed are those related to warfare. They are fighting a war right? Using people that haven't seen a large scale rebellion for about 800 years. With an opponent that has been fighting somebody for most of their history.  4 hours ago, Calderis said: No, it hasn't. The Desolations at this time period ended roughly 2000 years Ars ago, and this new event just before the recreance, "the False Desolation," has no Fused. Just regal forms and voidlight granted by BAM. I disagree. There is no reason for the Radiants to maintain a force as large as reported pre-Recreance if they aren't going to be fighting somebody, and alot. No Fused, true, but Singers are still a problem. And if the Singers aren't active this century or that decade they still must contend with a fractured humanity, someone always tries to gain dominance over everyone else. You don't have an entire silver kingdom dedicated to training soldiers if there's no need for them. 4 hours ago, Gisaku75 said: I do not agree. On coppermind it is specified that a Seeker is able to perceive the active use of the investiture so a Lightweaver approaching the enemy camp would be immediately discovered. Probably even a Tineye could do it, the illusions of a lightweaver are perfect to deceive the normal senses. But they don't necessarily work as well with the enhanced senses of an Allomancer.  4 hours ago, Calderis said: Every iron and steel misting could be taught how to do that the moment they know illusions are a thing. Metal sight does not require spikes. It's why I argued that TLR should be just as immune from the start. Between that and seekers... Couple points here. First, in the scenario do the sides come in knowing all the capabilities of the other or will they have to learn each other the old fashioned way, through experience and spy networks and all that? Because if it's the latter then I imagine the first time Scadrial learns about Lightweavers will be in catastrophic fashion. Because Scadrians need to be aware of the threat before they can prepare for it. Lightweavers in particular have a low detection threshold as evidenced by the Kholin raid so they'll probably be especially difficult for a seeker to detect, maybe even savant level. And the Steel/Iron users have to be taught to see in this fashion, they don't just pick it up. And how would they know they need to unless they know? Finally this is just one Order we're talking about, a way to do this off the top of my head. Other Orders could use other methods to disrupt the metalborn. I acknowledge that the Scadrians have surprises of their own to deliver, quite nasty ones all told. But just like it's harder to use illusions against Steelsight, it's harder to sneak up on a person with sapient weaponry. And Lightweaver/Truthwatcher surge involves more than light. Steelsight does not work against sound.  4 hours ago, Calderis said: A coin, on the other hand is going to launch slower... But the force applied is consistent out to a point and then continues at a diminishing rate. The constant acceleration the coin gets means that its quickly going to be moving at a at a higher velocity, with more force than a bullet of the same mass. And considering the mundane weapon of choice against plate is hammers, that's probably not a drawback as "piercing" only seems to be a real advantage if you can manage to make it through in one strike. Duralumin isn't necessary So the strategy is for a bunch of coinshots to launch a hail of coins at the Shardbearers? You may be right about the coins, I am not as familiar with the physics as maybe I should be. But what's to stop an Elsecaller from instantly soulcasting a stone wall to stop it? What's to stop any Radiant from turning their unbreakable Shardblade into a shield, wading through or shrugging off the barrage and performing something nasty in kind? Duraluminum is absolutely necessary IMO.  4 hours ago, Calderis said: You speak as though they're going to run through their attributes in moments. When evidence points to that bit being the case. 5 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said: a Kandra who did a lot of damage but ran out of speed with no way to get it back quickly at a pivotal moment, Yes. Who did an amazing amount of steel running for only having the ability for a couple weeks. The Steelrunner Kandra had a couple of distinct advantages. Access to guns, a near defenseless population and a mystery about who she was. At no point was she required to be in a prolonged battle where she had to husband her abilities against a future need. If I was a Radiant made aware of the power a Steelrunner or any Feruchemist ability for that matter I'm making efforts to have them use it up, just as a Scadrian high priority is to deprive Radiants of Stormlight.  4 hours ago, Calderis said: And the armor doesn't help them one wit against atium. Or TLR. Or inquisitors, who I have to remind you, only used obsidian weapons because metal was able to be pushed. That's not a concern against radiants. And at a word of explanation from TLR are already almost the "additional Fullborn" you keep saying that Scadrial would need.  4 hours ago, Calderis said: Still wondering how exactly a few adiant heals a coin out of the heir brain cavity. I overstated the nonmetal weapons thing for Scadrial. And a Radiant is going to have trouble with a coin through the viewslit or an Atium user. So the question is, how much Atium is each user going to get? 30 seconds worth? A couple minutes? They gotta decide before they swallow it, it's use it or lose it. And they better hope they don't run out while in range of a Shardblade cause that's a one hit kill. If TLR decides to empty the Trustwarren worth of Atium and give his users a bag of Atium a piece, it had better be the deciding battle, he'd better pick his spot well. And hope no one able to soulcast at distance to turn their supply into smoke. And they need every shot to be instant death or disability. TLR don't follow the normal rules. He could absolutely do this. He's a run on sight type of problem. Inquisitors just aren't. TLR has to make them and kill metalborn to do so. Lastly I'm with @Pathfinder in saying I need proof that Darkeyes don't feel the Thrill. That doesn't even make sense to me. 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RShara Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 Just now, Pathfinder said: Each of the Highprince armies fielded about 10,000 mentioned in the novels. 10 high princes is 100,000. Soldiers have been sent to the shattered plains for 6 years to maintain that number. There are still enough solders back at Alethkar to be thrown away on border disputes. That does not count the rest of the population of children to young to fight and elderly too old to fight which the 100 million for Scadrial includes. Finally that is for Alethkar only. If we were to divide Roshar up equally, Roshar makes up 1/6th of the continent. Unless you can provide me with more concrete numbers that dispute that WoB and show Roshar to be less populated than Scadrial, other than you feel it is too early and must be referring to the time period you assume, I will go with that estimate. The heralds were still very much on Roshar during that time. In prior posts both you and Calderis have stated they could not get out of the Roshar system, and we see the Heralds still having an effect on the world, so they were very much still a thing. So we must go exactly how the book says for some things, but then we can say this is likely or that is not likely for others? The Lord Ruler did not have compounders as of Era 1. If the Heralds cannot come to play because they were not actively fighting on Roshar, than neither can the compounders that were not made in Era 1 by the Lord Ruler. Fairs fair. Okay, you do you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: Shallan began to be able to give her illusions substance. As far as we know they could fake that. But lets say they can't. Put metal dust interwoven in your mostly physical illusions and they trick the steel vision. That won't work. Everybody they are likely to simulate would be wearing a helmet and some kind of weapon. The metal lines would be missing or wrong. They can disguise themselves or other people as Scadrians. That, however, creates a problem. They do not speak their language. They can hide themselves or others under illusions of inanimate objects. That also creates an issue with metal lines. Nobody of them could be wearing anything metallic. Doable for a KR with at least his blade. But not for anybody else. Even then they depend on no Tineye hearing or smelling them. Good luck with that after a few days in the field. But the most basic question remains open. What constitutes winning? If the Scadrians hold a single base with TLR in it and the KRs the rest of the planet, who do you consider the winner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 36 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Each of the Highprince armies fielded about 10,000 mentioned in the novels. 10 high princes is 100,000. Soldiers have been sent to the shattered plains for 6 years to maintain that number. There are still enough solders back at Alethkar to be thrown away on border disputes. That does not count the rest of the population of children to young to fight and elderly too old to fight which the 100 million for Scadrial includes. Finally that is for Alethkar only. If we were to divide Roshar up equally, Roshar makes up 1/6th of the continent. Unless you can provide me with more concrete numbers that dispute that WoB and show Roshar to be less populated than Scadrial, other than you feel it is too early and must be referring to the time period you assume, I will go with that estimate. Can they supply them? The raw population numbers are interesting but not all that helpful. The troops need to eat. Koloss probably can eat the local vegetation. The rest of the troops cannot without agriculture. And here the Scadrians have an advantage. The environment of a terrestial planet is utterly alien to Rosharans. They need to import all their food or use Investiture (Soulcasting and Progression) to produce it. Also their techniques for food preservation are more primitive. The Scadrians in principle could try farming. At least they know what soil is. Again, the most crucial information of the scenario is missing. Is there a local population to take away supplies from?  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: Shallan had an aluminum necklace. Even if this is accurate, which is questionable (yes I know it's in the book, but hear me out) they don't know it has anti Investiture properties at all. Taravangian refers to a mythical metal that fell from the sky and could block shardblades... And this is aluminum. No one knew what the metal Hoid gave Azure was that blocked the screamers. Then we have this WoB. Quote Questioner So, I'm intrigued by aluminum, especially the fact that it can only be found by Soulcasting on Roshar. So, how was it discovered in the first place? Brandon Sanderson ...Did I say you can only get it through Soulcasting? Questioner In the Shallan flashbacks, she has the pendant. Brandon Sanderson Don't take what she says at 100% truth. Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017) So who knows what the hell is up with aluminum on Roshar. 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: Again if the timeline is prior to the recreance, then the heralds would still be a thing Pre-recreance. Not pre-aharietiam. 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: Sazed had years of strength he never used. In order to increase his strength to fight the koloss he drained it all in one attack. Unless you are stating there will be one sortie and that is it, then the subsequent clashes would see diminishing returns for the feruchemists. I'm, no he didn't. He lasted for the full battle and rushed to different pockets to hold. He went for hours, and was a source of strength shoring up weak points in the battle despite "not being a warrior." He also burned through years of speed to turn a multiple month voyage into a journey of a couple days with stops for rest. 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: The skybreakers with division on the other hand would not.  1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: Skybreakers could attack at range with division We have never been told this, and the only use of Division we've seen has been via touch. 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: I thought there were theories that Paalm compounded to get those stores, or she was using the stores that were already made by the woman she killed to take the abilities from? There is a WoB that confirmed so long as you were burning a metal mind that identity is you, you could get the feruchemical trait out, which is why if you spiked out feruchemical gold from miles, he could still burn his metal minds with allomancy to heal back his feruchemy. So Paalm could have theoretically used a spike to have the ability to store speed into a metal mind. Then swapped to the spike for steel allomancy. I believe the only issue is then storing that speed into fresh metal minds, but I will need to pull up the theory to find out more. There are theories. But they're only that, theories. If she was burning stores, she was exceptionally smart about it because she never used steel allomancy while doing so. We know both are possible, we don't know that she knew it or did it. 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: The ferrings ability to increase strength also increase muscle mass. If getting big muscles were alone enough to get you to jump far, then long jump olympics should be body builders. But they are not. Muscle mass alone also wouldn't make you as tall as 12 foot Koloss either, so I'll agree to disagree here. 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: Not sure the coin to the brain trick is always going to work perfectly, and atium does burn quickly It's not going to always work to keep them down and out in one shot, but injuries to the brain that aren't fatal or have severe repercussions are far rarer than the instances that nothing happens. Those anomalies get so much attention precisely because they're storming weird. 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: They were not close to fullborn. it was after the lord ruler died, and ruin decked them out with further spikes that they got closer. But most standard inquisitors of the lord ruler had health feruchemy.  1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: if they can compound, true. To be effectively "Fullborn" for the he purposes of this combat, they only really need steel and gold, and they already have gold. Some of them may have already had steel as well, we don't know the full compliment of powers that inquisitors had because they weren't standardized. The reason that inquisitors needed so much "rest" was because of storing gold. If TLR tells them how to compound, that issue dies. 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: Shallan began to be able to give her illusions substance. As far as we know they could fake that. But lets say they can't. Put metal dust interwoven in your mostly physical illusions and they trick the steel vision. Quote Can't remove on mobile, please disregard. We don't know that the first would work, or that the second is possible, or that they wouldn't still appear odd in that metalsight is sensitive enough that inquisitors can differentiate between colors and textures despite everything being "blue lines."  55 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: The heralds were still very much on Roshar during that time. In prior posts both you and Calderis have stated they could not get out of the Roshar system, and we see the Heralds still having an effect on the world, so they were very much still a thing The OP said no Heralds, and even if they hadn't, they walked away from their blades and haven't come back save Nale and Ash, and Taln would still be in Damnation. They're out of it. 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: You do not know that. We know very little of the false desolation. We do not know how many forms were used. What they did. and so on. We know enough for this part. The gem archive speaks of what is currently happening when it talks about how BAM has learned to provide the singers with Voidlight and forms of power (regal forms) as Odium once did. It speaks of a recent development. And the gem archive was made just before Urithiru was abandoned. We can be super generous and say there may still be decades before the recreance at that point... But considering it's also speaking of the strike team against BAM that should mean that soon after the parsh were inadvertently severed, and if that is the case, I have some major questions about who was being fought by the radiants at feverstone keep, near ral elorim, where the gem archive also says the parsh were pushing towards. And it was called the "false Desolation" for a reason. No Odium, no Fused. As to all of your assertions that we don't know how Radiant plate works. You're correct. But that also means any assertions about how it's better than "dead" plate is assumption. 54 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said: One of the technologies he specifically repressed are those related to warfare. They are fighting a war right? Using people that haven't seen a large scale rebellion for about 800 years. With an opponent that has been fighting somebody for most of their history.  1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: The Knights Radiant was a military organization. Those that did not fight, were due to their own choice, not their powers.  54 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said: I disagree. There is no reason for the Radiants to maintain a force as large as reported pre-Recreance if they aren't going to be fighting somebody, and alot. No Fused, true, but Singers are still a problem. And if the Singers aren't active this century or that decade they still must contend with a fractured humanity, someone always tries to gain dominance over everyone else. You don't have an entire silver kingdom dedicated to training soldiers if there's no need for them. All of these points are interconnected. The radiants were not just a military organization. They were an organization for the maintenance and betterment of Roshar that happened to have a military component. Like it or not, the book says 3/4 of radiants were not combatants, but scholars, or diplomats, or "served in other ways." or however it's worded. So you had people studying, and maintaining the relationships between countries, maybe teaching or building or whatever else. That's what they chose to use their powers for because the spren don't choose a Radiant based on if they want to fight. They choose them based on how they fit the qualities of the order. And what that spren is individually looking for. You'll have fighters from every order. That doesn't mean all of them are going to magically shape up and form ranks and fight. Because the radiants were always more than that. 54 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said: The Steelrunner Kandra had a couple of distinct advantages. Access to guns, a near defenseless population and a mystery about who she was. At no point was she required to be in a prolonged battle where she had to husband her abilities against a future need. If I was a Radiant made aware of the power a Steelrunner or any Feruchemist ability for that matter I'm making efforts to have them use it up, just as a Scadrian high priority is to deprive Radiants of Stormlight The guns were convenient for her playing people against each other, but not necessary to kill. She could have stabbed, or cut or planted explosives or whatever the hell she wanted because her metals allowed her to fire four shots from different locations in a room and have everyone there hear only a single report. F-steel is OP, and I still say nothing we've yet to see counters that speed. Bendalloy will let you watch it. But doesn't do anything to help you get away. How do you make them use it up? Them using it means there hurting you, at minimum, before they strike. Hell, at that speed they could walk up, cut a hole in your face to place a object in your head where they want it and walk away before the pains registered. 11 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Koloss probably can eat the local vegetation. Koloss can literally survive eating dirt. They're set. Edited October 18, 2019 by Calderis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019  51 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: That won't work. Everybody they are likely to simulate would be wearing a helmet and some kind of weapon. The metal lines would be missing or wrong. Not everyone wears a helmet. Inquisitors can't lol. Here is a question, does invested metal show up in steel sight? Since it cannot be affected by it. So the spikes in an inquistors head potentially wouldn't show. So you could theoretically have an illusion of an inquisitor walk into camp. Btw, also why can't their be illusions like Shallans? Where it just covers the first layer, making subtle differences? Body would still register to steel sight. Quote They can disguise themselves or other people as Scadrians. That, however, creates a problem. They do not speak their language. Languages can be learned on both sides. A bondsmith just has to touch a scadrian and then work like dalinar did with the visions. Tell someone what sentence he is going to say in rosharan, then touch a scandrian, and repeat the sentence. Do that enough times, and you will have the language cracked. Quote They can hide themselves or others under illusions of inanimate objects. That also creates an issue with metal lines. Nobody of them could be wearing anything metallic. I already replied to this. metal dust mixed in the illusion would give off the metal lines. We do not know the extent of how solid a lightweaver can make an illusion, but it does hint at pretty solid. Quote Even then they depend on no Tineye hearing or smelling them. Good luck with that after a few days in the field. Where I get confused is one second you are saying they are walking in pretending to be someone, then the next you are saying they are going in invisible? 28 minutes ago, Calderis said: Even if this is accurate, which is questionable (yes I know it's in the book, but hear me out) they don't know it has anti Investiture properties at all. Taravangian refers to a mythical metal that fell from the sky and could block shardblades... And this is aluminum. No one knew what the metal Hoid gave Azure was that blocked the screamers. Then we have this WoB. So who knows what the hell is up with aluminum on Roshar. True. Though I consider a minor light eyes having access to aluminum as jewelry speaks that it would be on at least some Rosharans. So there is a good chance the nature could be discovered. But as you said, there is a whole lot we do not know regarding aluminum and Roshar. Quote Pre-recreance. Not pre-aharietiam. See my response to Rshara. Quote I'm, no he didn't. He lasted for the full battle and rushed to different pockets to hold. He went for hours, and was a source of strength shoring up weak points in the battle despite "not being a warrior." He also burned through years of speed to turn a multiple month voyage into a journey of a couple days with stops for rest. I pulled up the quote. It was one sustained conflict that lasted hours. Then he was completely drained. As in no more. There were still Koloss coming in. He was about to die, when Vin showed up. So during a sustained conflict, he ran out. If either side then retreated, to then attack the next day, he went from years of storage, to hours. Now how long will he last? Quote We have never been told this, and the only use of Division we've seen has been via touch. Amaram used division at range. Quote There are theories. But they're only that, theories. If she was burning stores, she was exceptionally smart about it because she never used steel allomancy while doing so. We know both are possible, we don't know that she knew it or did it. Right, every option (her making it herself, her finding a way to compound it, or her taking what the prior person had) is all theories that have not been confirmed. Quote Muscle mass alone also wouldn't make you as tall as 12 foot Koloss either, so I'll agree to disagree here. It doesn't state the size of the Koloss, and says "nearly its own size" "The lead Koloss turned to find himself facing a creature nearly his own size. " Quote It's not going to always work to keep them down and out in one shot, but injuries to the brain that aren't fatal or have severe repercussions are far rarer than the instances that nothing happens. Those anomalies get so much attention precisely because they're storming weird. And if you scramble an item in the brain that isn't healing, it will kill you normally. But the spot you have to get, and keep it in to impede function is small. Usually the trauma of it entering and exiting is enough to kill someone outright. Stormlight healing has no issue with that. Quote To be effectively "Fullborn" for the he purposes of this combat, they only really need steel and gold, and they already have gold. Some of them may have already had steel as well, we don't know the full compliment of powers that inquisitors had because they weren't standardized. See my response to Rshara. If heralds are not a thing because they were not "around" at the time, then inquistor compounders should not be a thing because as per the book and WoB, the Lord Ruler did not have them be "a thing" Quote The reason that inquisitors needed so much "rest" was because of storing gold. If TLR tells them how to compound, that issue dies. But once again, if the heralds cannot be a thing, because they were not a thing at the time, even though they were present, then neither can the lord ruler add to the scenario. Inquistors could not compound when the lord ruler was around, so for this scenario they should not compound. Fairs fair. Quote We don't know that the first would work, or that the second is possible, or that they wouldn't still appear odd in that metalsight is sensitive enough that inquisitors can differentiate between colors and textures despite everything being "blue lines." We also do not know how steel sight interacts with illusions period. In this case we are both shooting in the dark. Quote The OP said no Heralds, and even if they hadn't, they walked away from their blades and haven't come back save Nale and Ash, and Taln would still be in Damnation. Which is why as I said, Scarial would win because the scenario says the heralds are not a thing. But then again neither are inquistor compounders. Quote We know enough for this part. The gem archive speaks of what is currently happening when it talks about how BAM has learned to provide the singers with Voidlight and forms of power (regal forms) as Odium once did. provide with voidlight yes. You do not know what forms of power was fueled. Quote It speaks of a recent development. And the gem archive was made just before Urithiru was abandoned. We can be super generous and say there may still be decades before the recreance at that point... But considering it's also speaking of the strike team against BAM that should mean that soon after the parsh were inadvertently severed, and if that is the case, I have some major questions about who was being fought by the radiants at feverstone keep, near ral elorim, where the gem archive also says the parsh were pushing towards. Right. we do not know the composition of what was still fighting them. Quote And it was called the "false Desolation" for a reason. No Odium, no Fused. It was called false because no odium to fuel them. Unless my recollection is faulty, in which case I apologize, I do not recall it saying no fused. Quote As to all of your assertions that we don't know how Radiant plate works. You're correct. But that also means any assertions about how it's better than "dead" plate is assumption. We do know there is most definitely a difference. What that difference is, remains to be seen. Found this quote on my phone, but do not have the time to pull it up to link it on the computer. I will type as much reference info as possible  Words of Radiance Philadelpiha signing March 21 2014 Questioner Is there a difference between the shardplate of the radiants from the visions of the past and the current plate brandon yes Quote  All of these points are interconnected. The radiants were not just a military organization. They were an organization for the maintenance and betterment of Roshar that happened to have a military component. They were formed to fight a global threat. All radiants get a shardblade, which is mimicking the honorblades, which were created to fight in a war. Quote Like it or not, the book says 3/4 of radiants were not combatants, but scholars, or diplomats, or "served in other ways." or however it's worded. So you had people studying, and maintaining the relationships between countries, maybe teaching or building or whatever else. That's what they chose to use their powers for because the spren don't choose a Radiant based on if they want to fight. They choose them based on how they fit the qualities of the order. And what that spren is individually looking for. You'll have fighters from every order. That doesn't mean all of them are going to magically shape up and form ranks and fight. Because the radiants were always more than that. Right, you have people who chose to be scholars and diplomats, in a situation where that was possible or an option. In this situation, where is the call for a scholar? Where for a diplomat? The scenario is a battle between two sides, whoever wipes out the other wins. So a scholar can soulcast the air to fire to roast enemies and still be a scholar. Quote The guns were convenient for her playing people against each other, but not necessary to kill. She could have stabbed, or cut or planted explosives or whatever the hell she wanted because her metals allowed to fire four shits from different locations in a room and have everyone there hear only a single report. F-steel is op, and I still say nothing we've yet to see counters that speed. Bendalloy will let you watch it. But doesn't do anything to help you get away. And as already mentioned, she still ran out. Quote How do you make them use it up? Them using it means there hurting you, at minimum, before they strike. Hell, at that speed they could walk up, cut a hole in your face to place a object in your head where they want it and walk away before the pains registered. Speed ferrings are exceedingly rare, as per WoB. Congrats the speed ferring used its speed to do that to 10 enemies before his or her speed runs out, and they are not useless. If used as a tactic, it could be very devastating, but there are tactics that the radiants could use that could be just as devastating.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 10 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: It was called false because no odium to fuel them. Unless my recollection is faulty, in which case I apologize, I do not recall it saying no fused. The Fused were bound to Braize because Taln was still holding the Oathpact. So there could not be Fused on Roshar unless Taln broke, which he didn't until the current time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 (edited) 13 hours ago, Pathfinder said: Not everyone wears a helmet. Inquisitors can't lol. No vials. No weapons. No body armor. Does not use allomancy. Instantly obvious to any Seeker. Quote So you could theoretically have an illusion of an inquisitor walk into camp. Btw, also why can't their be illusions like Shallans? Where it just covers the first layer, making subtle differences? Body would still register to steel sight. Yes. But that liits tactical options enormously. EDIT: Yes. But that limits tactical options enormously. (A typo where it really matters) Quote Languages can be learned on both sides. A bondsmith just has to touch a scadrian and then work like dalinar did with the visions. Bondsmiths are not Lightweavers. He could teach them how to say a few pass phrases without an accent to give them away. But not a whole conversation. Quote Tell someone what sentence he is going to say in rosharan, then touch a scandrian, and repeat the sentence. Do that enough times, and you will have the language cracked. But not taught. Not without an accent and with the implicit cultural knowledge associated. Quote I already replied to this. metal dust mixed in the illusion would give off the metal lines. We do not know the extent of how solid a lightweaver can make an illusion, but it does hint at pretty solid. Yes, it would give them metal lines. Even to a conventional Coinshot or Lurcher. Instant give away. Quote Where I get confused is one second you are saying they are walking in pretending to be someone, then the next you are saying they are going in invisible? Lightweaving gives them both options. They are all problematic but to different degrees. Quote Right, you have people who chose to be scholars and diplomats, in a situation where that was possible or an option. In this situation, where is the call for a scholar? Prisoners have to be interrogated. It has to be determined what allomancy can do. The enemy's technology has to be understood. A new world has to be understood. Quote Where for a diplomat? Convince Skaa that there are other options than fighting. Quote Speed ferrings are exceedingly rare, as per WoB. They do not yet exist. This the Final Emipre. No Ferrings. You have full Feruchemists, Inquisitors and TLR himself. That's it for Feruchemy. Edited October 19, 2019 by Oltux72 A typo where it really matters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 51 minutes ago, RShara said: The Fused were bound to Braize because Taln was still holding the Oathpact. So there could not be Fused on Roshar unless Taln broke, which he didn't until the current time. Assuming all fused were dead by that point. We still do not know what terms the "victory" that causes the heralds to then transition back to Braize. The Unmade are still around even after Taln held to the Oathpact. So we do not know if a herald going back, suddenly pulls all fused hanging out back to Braize at once, or they wait till they kill every single Fused, or something else happens which terms "win" and then they go back. So my point is we do not know who or what was still hanging out among the forms of power 43 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: No vials. No weapons. No body armor. Does not use allomancy. Instantly obvious to any Seeker. Ok this is going on the premise that the illusion is a disguise of an actual person. Why couldn't they carry weapons and body armor with them? Just use illusion to change the face like Shallan and Veil does? 43 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Yes. But that liits tactical options enormously. but that what? 43 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Bondsmiths are not Lightweavers. He could teach them how to say a few pass phrases without an accent to give them away. But not a whole conversation. This was going on the premise of capturing a scadrian. Then as I said, treat the bondsmith as a rosetta stone. Take sentences that include a wide range of words and inflections. Then tell the bondsmith after touching the scadrian to say them. Write out the result. You now have a rule brick to learn what words means what to learn scadrian. 43 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: But not taught. Not without an accent and with the implicit cultural knowledge associated. Illumination covers sound too. Pattern mimicked the voice's tone and everything. So it is certainly possible. 43 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Yes, it would give them metal lines. Even to a conventional Coinshot or Lurcher. Instant give away. I thought the point was to cause metal lines so as to make the illusion seem real? What I understood from you and calderis is that if you have an illusion you can put your hand through, then steel sight would not pick up the train metals in an illusion, and see right through it. i was saying give the illusion some substance, and mix in some metal dust, and now it registers to the steel sight. Otherwise I am confused by what you are saying. 43 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Lightweaving gives them both options. They are all problematic but to different degrees. I responded to each. 43 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Prisoners have to be interrogated. It has to be determined what allomancy can do. The enemy's technology has to be understood. A new world has to be understood. If we account for that, then same stands for scadrians. 43 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Convince Skaa that there are other options than fighting. same stands for scadrians. which raises the point that 100 percent of the 100 million population that is referenced not only has a various age group that would limit combatants, but also a significantly large chunk were skaa peasantry forbidden to fight. So that reduces the numbers even further. 43 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: They do not yet exist. This the Final Emipre. No Ferrings. You have full Feruchemists, Inquisitors and TLR himself. That's it for Feruchemy. You are right. There would only be mistings, a very small number of mistborn, an extremely small number of feruchemists, a small number of inquistors, and the lord ruler. The lord ruler would still win it though if heralds are excluded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 22 hours ago, StanLemon said: Seeing into the CR won't tell the spren anything, living things just look like glowing figures in the CR. They would have to see into the SR to be able to tell. There would likely be a size and possibly a shape and coloration difference. 22 hours ago, StanLemon said: Limited offensively? They can increase their strength and speed. Shardplate isn't indestructible, Szeth was able to break it with just Stormlight and an Honorblade so I'm sure a Feruchemist tapping Strength could easily shatter it and Shadows of Self is a perfect example of just how deadly Steelrunning is. Shards do a disproportionate damage to shardplate. 22 hours ago, StanLemon said: Your assumptions with Shardplate and Mistings is flawed. The Thrill is a perfect example of how even someone in plate can have their emotions affected so Soothers/Rioters wouldn't be blocked and I can't remember anything about the Nahel bond blocking emotional manipulation at all and Dalinar was still influenced by the Thrill even when bonded to the Stormfather. Also, just because a coinshot can't affect the shardplate or shardblade directly doesn't mean they are useless, they can fire off barrages of metal to crack and break the plate from a distance. Dalinar was a thrill addict. Sanderson mentions Syl helping Kaladin avoid it. 22 hours ago, StanLemon said: Roshar's regular troops during the Recreance were bronze age tech basically while the Final Empire was much more advanced. Also Roshar's population wouldn't be able to field anywhere near the amount of regular soldiers as the Final Empire. Also, their is no way they would even know about aluminum to use that advantage. The bulk of the final empire's troops in this scenario are underfed and not particularly loyal. Roshar is a different matter. 22 hours ago, StanLemon said: ? There were at most only a couple thousand Radiants and only at best 20% of them could Soulcast. How would they Soulcast enough quicksand to stop somewhere in the area of 200,000 Koloss? Coheasion not soulcasting. 3 hours ago, Oltux72 said: They can hide themselves or others under illusions of inanimate objects. That also creates an issue with metal lines. Nobody of them could be wearing anything metallic. Doable for a KR with at least his blade. But not for anybody else. Even then they depend on no Tineye hearing or smelling them. Good luck with that after a few days in the field. There are only so many coinshots and lurchers and I don't expect them to last long against Windrunners.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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