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Scadrial vs Roshar.


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28 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Fair enough, but I have to wonder then why a soulcaster couldn't soulcast a shardblade when a "full" metalmind could block one.

Always more questions. 

True. Maybe it is a function of what you are attempting? One is trying to cut, or "sever" while the other is changing the composition, not the investiture? Brandon did say the investiture was still there, just it was no longer accessible. Meanwhile by trying to cut into the metal mind, you are also trying to "cut" the investiture? So its changing the nature via soulcasting the material into being inaccessible, versus trying to destroy it by cutting it? Dunno, still playing around with the concept in my mind. 

 

edit: i think i misread your post

I know that a soulcaster cannot soulcast a shardblade versus a metal mind, because a shardblade is more invested than the bands of mourning. As to why it could block a shardblade, then its my above thoughts

 

Questioner

You've said that Shardblades can be made in other magic systems. So if it's not like a Shardblade from Roshar, what makes it a Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

The "Shard" refers to the heavy Investiture of a Shard of Adonalsium. Most of what you’ll see will see are the Roshar ones, but it is technically possible to make them out of the other magic systems. It's going to be a heavily invested magical weapon, is kind of how I would define it.

Questioner

So are the Bands [of Mourning] one?

Brandon Sanderson

I would not call them one, but they are close. They're not Invested enough.

Calamity Austin signing (Feb. 25, 2016) Edited by Pathfinder
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First, I said normal Roshan beats Normal Scadrian because they are generally healthier and have more baseline investiture than all the skaa and most nobles. But the gravity thing is of course a factor. I'm willing to consider that point. Call it a toss up.

Second, I'm not worried about TLR'S clothes, it's whatever weapon he would use. All I am saying is that whatever he's holding for a weapon would shatter at first impact. About the only weapon he could use that wouldn't shatter the first time he used it would be a Shardblade, and how in hell would he get one to work for him? He's going to be using his bare hands, quite formidable but no weapon.

Third, while normally speaking not all Orders are combat oriented, I would think that in an interplanetary war with an opponent as powerful as TLR I think the approach is all hands on deck. And if you're going to give TLR a year prep time to stock up his bracers I think it's only fair to give the Radiants time to train up the combat deficient Orders to do battle.

Forth, running down the stairs, running at all on the ground, requires friction on the running surface.  There is no friction in the air. Now he can do a pretty big push or pull and achieve a fast straight line speed but he probably isn't breaking the sound barrier. Even if he is he cannot manuver at that speed. And speaking of friction, a group of Edgedancers oil slicking the battlefield would also negate some or Rashek's speed advantages.

Scadrial needs more Fullborn to beat Roshar. With a year prep it's certainly doable via Hemalugy. But if Heralds get involved, or, crazy scenario, if the Fused and Singers sign up to defend their planet then all bets are off.

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9 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Second, I'm not worried about TLR'S clothes, it's whatever weapon he would use. All I am saying is that whatever he's holding for a weapon would shatter at first impact. About the only weapon he could use that wouldn't shatter the first time he used it would be a Shardblade, and how in hell would he get one to work for him? He's going to be using his bare hands, quite formidable but no weapon.

He could simply have a large slab of rock, or a huge metal shield to pulp everyone as he slams into them. Or use his fists, strengthened by pewter and healed by gold.

9 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Forth, running down the stairs, running at all on the ground, requires friction on the running surface.  There is no friction in the air. Now he can do a pretty big push or pull and achieve a fast straight line speed but he probably isn't breaking the sound barrier. Even if he is he cannot manuver at that speed.

The part that I pasted with Marasi would contradict that.

Quote

And speaking of friction, a group of Edgedancers oil slicking the battlefield would also negate some or Rashek's speed advantages.

They would have to see him coming or know his trajectory for that to work. And he can certainly SteelPush his way past any slicked ground.

It's not the using one power at a time thing. It's the fact that he can use all of the powers at once, at any given time, to meet just about any situation that a Radiant can throw at him. Each of the counter-scenarios I see involve him using only one or two of his abilities at once, instead of all....25 or so, depending.

Edited by RShara
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26 minutes ago, RShara said:

It's not the using one power at a time thing. It's the fact that he can use all of the powers at once, at any given time, to meet just about any situation that a Radiant can throw at him. Each of the counter-scenarios I see involve him using only one or two of his abilities at once, instead of all....25 or so, depending.

This. 

I mean, we've been shown just how ridiculous TLR could be with just a couple of his powers, and he still has ones available that we don't know about. 

On the whole, I never thought I'd see people actively underestimating a Fullborn. 

And on the flip side, I think people are vastly overestimating what the radiants will be capable of. They are not going to be like on Thaylen field. They aren't going to have limitless stormlight. 

And we've seen live plate damaged and cracking in one of the first visions by the storming midnight essence. 

And most of all we've got to be consistent. Both sides have a year to prep, but no information about the other side. If TLR is going to have the same casual metalminds he's got when Vin sees him after a millenia of comfortable rule, then the radiants are 3/4 non-combatants. You can't have it both ways. 

All in all, I've said my piece. Take TLR away and I'd give it to Roshar. Put him in the field and he can take them alone. 

I don't see a point in arguing it further. 

Edited by Calderis
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have all your wind runners and skybreakers lash an entire mountain at the enemy army and just have everyone take down TLR and anyone else that survives plus the KR are still working with the sleepless and have access to all the knowledge of Akina and have been hardened by tons of war, most of the Scadrians have never seen war and wouldn't know how to fight in a war as well as supply an army and march troops in an organized fashion. they would rely too much on their  Koloss and a lashed mountain would deal with most of them and then The KR would just have to deal with TLR 

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3 minutes ago, Kalaksbreath said:

have all your wind runners and skybreakers lash an entire mountain at the enemy army and just have everyone take down TLR and anyone else that survives plus the KR are still working with the sleepless and have access to all the knowledge of Akina and have been hardened by tons of war, most of the Scadrians have never seen war and wouldn't know how to fight in a war as well as supply an army and march troops in an organized fashion. they would rely too much on their  Koloss and a lashed mountain would deal with most of them and then The KR would just have to deal with TLR 

TLR could just compound iron, and burn duralumin with steel and Push the mountain away. And there are 200,000 koloss in TFE. They're going to be the bulk of the troops anyway. Not sure why you're underestimating them. 10-30ft tall monsters with proportional swords, that don't particularly care about wounds or dying, and can reproduce by harvesting the spikes of their fallen and sticking them into new people (probably the Rosharans).

And as repeatedly stated, TLR could take care of the Radiants and the armies all by himself.

Edited by RShara
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1 minute ago, RShara said:

TLR could just compound iron, and burn duralumin with steel and Push the mountain away. And there are 200,000 koloss in TFE. They're going to be the bulk of the troops anyway. Not sure why you're underestimating them. 10-30ft tall monsters with proportional swords, that don't particularly care about wounds or dying, and can reproduce by harvesting the spikes of their fallen and sticking them into new people (probably the Rosharans).

would TLR be strong enough to stop a mountain thats falling at an insane speed it would push him down so hard he would be shot to the center of the planet?  

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Just now, Kalaksbreath said:

would TLR be strong enough to stop a mountain thats falling at an insane speed it would push him down so hard he would be shot to the center of the planet?  

He could equal the speed and mass with his own steelpuish and momentum and iron. Or perceive it as different pieces and Push/Pull it to bits. or Pull it away from the battlefield. Remember that he can compound mental speed as well, and think some huge number faster than anyone else.

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4 minutes ago, RShara said:

He could equal the speed and mass with his own steelpuish and momentum and iron. Or perceive it as different pieces and Push/Pull it to bits. or Pull it away from the battlefield. Remember that he can compound mental speed as well, and think some huge number faster than anyone else.

my math is probably wrong but terminal velocity is 120 mph * 400 radiants lashing it down once is 48,000 mph and would probably destroy the whole planet. 

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Context.

Is the battlefield full of abandoned cities with metallic objects. Wide open plains or dense jungles? What is the climate like? Is their food? Do you get resupplies?And the elephants in the room. Does Plate protect against Leeching or emotional allomancy? And not to be snarky, but how do they find each other? This is a whole planet. Do they have objectives? Do they need to keep certain areas?

Can a Seeker detect a spren on a recon mission? Can spren enter copperclouds? Can you soulcast within a coppercloud?
Does a steelrunner gain the momentum associated with his quickness?

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17 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Does Plate protect against Leeching or emotional allomancy?

It would definitely provide protection, but similar to how TLR could certainly Push on Blades+Plates with steel+duralumin, he should likewise be able to punch through the resistance with zinc/brass+duralumin.

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I'm not underestimating the power of a Fullborn in general, much less TLR. I agree that dude is ridiculously OP. We've seen how devistating Dalinar is on a battlefield. It's really saying something for me to admit that multiplying that monster by 200 would still get wiped out by TLR by himself. But no matter his enhancements he is still human. YMMV but I just can't see TLR killing the entirety of the KR without some help. Weight of numbers, Invested opponents with magical swords and nearly indestructible armor, commanding the forces of creation, this isn't a couple hundred skaa he's fighting.  Nor are his opponents limited to ground combat or even Physical Realm combat. And his power source, while vast, is finite just as Stormlight is finite. Thing is, TLR could fight 999 Radiants but as soon as he burns through whatever he has all it takes is one to kill him. 

I know there are a lot of you guys that feel differently from me but I tend to look at it like a balance. See, Rashek got his power from a Shard. All Shards are suppose to be equal.  So the power disparity between the top Preservation agent and the top Honor/Cultivation agents are very difficult for me to reconcile. Or if it's a skill set issue then why is the mindless Shard giving up so much more than anyone else? There has to be some trade-off or the system is broken.

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6 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I know there are a lot of you guys that feel differently from me but I tend to look at it like a balance. See, Rashek got his power from a Shard. All Shards are suppose to be equal.  So the power disparity between the top Preservation agent and the top Honor/Cultivation agents are very difficult for me to reconcile. Or if it's a skill set issue then why is the mindless Shard giving up so much more than anyone else? There has to be some trade-off or the system is broken.

There's no balance here. The systems are independent of the Shards that Spawn them, let alone each other. 

Radiants have to pull in their Investiture from a naturally occurring external source, and hold it to be used. Whereas every Allomancer has what is essentially closer to the Heralds in a direct feed from Preservation to get their Investiture. Yes they use metal to do so, but the Investiture itself comes directly from the Shard. 

Each Radiant gets a portion of set portion of one magic system.

TLR gets the full array of two magic systems, and the hack of using one t fuel the other for results that should be impossible to a typical Feruchemist. 

The premise of this battle shows a part of the disparity in itself. The radiants have to have a source of stormlight fabricated for them. Metals are everywhere. 

With enough knowledge of all of the mechanics of the Cosmere you can start using multiple systems to do crazy things and fuel different systems in new and interesting ways. But as far as your run of the mill typical magic user goes for every world in the Cosmere, the winner is going to be dependent upon what system they're using usually. 

There isn't a "balance" here. 

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With Compounding, The Lord Ruler has:

Unlimited mass--he could compound and tap so much he could the mass of the planet if he wanted

Unlimited speed--faster than the speed of sound with no damage

Unlimited strength--he can smash through anything with one punch or kick

Unlimited mental speed--he can think faster in a few seconds than normal people could in a year or a century

Unlimited healing--he will heal from anything and everything, including Shardblade wounds, beheading and being burned to a crisp, which most Radiants can't even do.

Incredibly perceptive senses--He can see things miles away as if he were standing in front of them. Ditto with sound and smell, or whichever sense he wants.

Unlimited wakefullness--Never needs to sleep.

800px-Feruchemical_table.jpg

 

On top of that, he has the full range of Allomantic powers, as powerful as it's possible to be short of being a Shard. He's also a Sliver, and we don't know what effects that gives him. But his soul has a lot of Investiture, so any attempt to Soulcast him is going to be extra difficult.

With Allomancy that powerful, he can see and Push or Pull on the trace metals inside of everything. So illusions are worthless.

With Duralumin added to his Allomancy, and various manipulations of weight, mental speed, physical speed, etc, he can Push, Pull, Soothe, Riot, even full Shardbearers with ease. He can Steelpush over any obstacle or trap. He can Pull down or divert any obstacle and survive any hit. And he never gets tired from doing any of this.

He could just keep attacking just enough to keep the armies on alert for a week straight, then go in for a kill while they're dropping from exhaustion.

Edited by RShara
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I'm fully aware of the fact that the systems aren't meant to be balanced. I just don't like it. But I do acknowledge it which is why I agree that TLR can tank multiple Radiants with his power set.  I just don't think it's quite as out of balance as some of you guys contend. Then it's probably just a feeling without basis in reality yet. We honestly don't know what a Full 5 Radiant looks like in battle or what each Order's Resonance is.  What we can do is extrapolate their abilities based on the quality of their enemies.  And the Fused, what little we've seen of them, are no flipping joke. TLR's foes? Nowhere near as formidable. Then he's got Ruin whispering in his ear, constantly trying to sabotage all his efforts. But anyway, we are talking in circles a bit.  All I can say is that we shouldn't discount the ability of Radiants in the face of TLR's brilliance.

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2 hours ago, SkyRunner said:

Let’s not forget emotional allomancy. If the thrill can penetrate plate, I’d assume rioting and soothing, especially compounded could sway the battle in Scadrials favor. 

You can't compound the Allomantic powers, but you can burn them with duralumin for insane effects.

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The fact that the Desolations were even a problem is one of my big strikes against the Radiants. With so many Radiants plus the worlds soldiers (admittedly at a low tech level) they still nearly got wiped out by the end of EVERY SINGLE DESOLATION and it was common for Heralds to to die during them too. Based on what we've seen so far in this current Desolation (which is arguably worse than any previous one because of the Everstorm, constantly returning Fuzed, lack of Heralds, and barely existent Radiants) plus from the visions that we saw with Dalinar I don't see why Scadrial couldn't beat them. They were fighting monsters and magic users yes but so far we haven't seen them fight anything that Scadrial couldn't have handled and yet the Radiants constantly barely survived.

 

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12 hours ago, RShara said:

It would definitely provide protection, but similar to how TLR could certainly Push on Blades+Plates with steel+duralumin, he should likewise be able to punch through the resistance with zinc/brass+duralumin.

Yes. At the one place where he is. And that sums up his main problem. Unfortunately he has to eat (technically not, but he does not know about chrome and cadmium if we are talking about era 1). The Radiants have the advantage in mobility through elsecalling and gravitation.

 

Thanks to soulcasting and Cohesion they also have better supplies and field engineering. If you cannot meet the Lord Ruler in open field combat, then there is an obvious solution: don't. Wear him down by guerilla action and strike at his supply chain.

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11 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes. At the one place where he is. And that sums up his main problem. Unfortunately he has to eat (technically not, but he does not know about chrome and cadmium if we are talking about era 1). The Radiants have the advantage in mobility through elsecalling and gravitation.

 

Thanks to soulcasting and Cohesion they also have better supplies and field engineering. If you cannot meet the Lord Ruler in open field combat, then there is an obvious solution: don't. Wear him down by guerilla action and strike at his supply chain

In addition to this, metalborn need metals. The knights do not. Knights got Soulcasters right? Turn any metal deposit, any metal storage into smoke. TLR can push on trace metals and Shardblades or whatever but no one he brings with him can say the same thing.

And as far as the Fused being a weak opponent, I gotta give a hard disagree on that. They are more numerous, undying, have similar surges as our heroes and have a direct connection to their power supply. There is no way Scadrians don't get wiped out by the Fused even with TLR if they were to replace the Knights on Roshar.

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2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

In addition to this, metalborn need metals. The knights do not. Knights got Soulcasters right? Turn any metal deposit, any metal storage into smoke. TLR can push on trace metals and Shardblades or whatever but no one he brings with him can say the same thing.

And Radiants need Stormlight, lot easier to find new metal than a new source of Stormlight. Your argument is very flawed

2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

And as far as the Fused being a weak opponent, I gotta give a hard disagree on that. They are more numerous, undying, have similar surges as our heroes and have a direct connection to their power supply. There is no way Scadrians don't get wiped out by the Fused even with TLR if they were to replace the Knights on Roshar.

They are only undying in the most recent Desolation. Before the Everstorm when they die they go back to Braize and are trapped their until a Herald breaks and even then they need the bodies of Singers to manifest.

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14 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes. At the one place where he is. And that sums up his main problem. Unfortunately he has to eat (technically not, but he does not know about chrome and cadmium if we are talking about era 1). The Radiants have the advantage in mobility through elsecalling and gravitation.

Technically he likely did know about Chromium, Nicrosil, Cadmium, and Bendalloy. We have several WoB implying that he does and I can't think of any that say he didn't.

As far as mobility goes, Gravitation would give better mobility yes but Elsecallers can't compare to Steelrunning.

14 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

 

Thanks to soulcasting and Cohesion they also have better supplies and field engineering. If you cannot meet the Lord Ruler in open field combat, then there is an obvious solution: don't. Wear him down by guerilla action and strike at his supply chain.

And you think TLR wouldn't do guerrilla tactics against them? In fact it would be more beneficial for him to do so than them. He has so many ways he could get past their defenses and destroy their Stormlight reserves which would cripple the Radiants

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