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Scadrial vs Roshar.


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33 minutes ago, RShara said:

TLR can literally move faster than the speed of sound. He would be able to bash through Plate with compounded pewter strength and crush or remove the head before the Radiant even saw him coming and likely cause too much trauma for the Stormlight to heal fast enough to keep the Radiant alive.

Yes, but Radiants that have regrowth might heal faster than normal radiants, which would let them survive having their heads crushed, (unless you think that Renarin just got lucky against the thunderclast and it didn't smash his head at all). the healing speed is increased the more stormlight you have (I think).

19 minutes ago, FatherTiempo said:

I think a coinshot, theoretically, could steelpush a shardblade into their opponent. (Brandon Sanderson said once that shard blades could be allomantically influenced) I think of you cut a Radiant in half they'll die, but I'm not sure.

I think the big equalizer for future conflicts between Roshar and Scadrial ( oh yes I predict awesomeness) will be the technology of Scadrial.

I doubt that the average coinshot could push on a shardblade, and the radiants can dismiss their blade as soon as they feel it being pushed on. If they have shardplate then this is a moot point as it seems to be specifically designed to protect radiants from being affected by investiture, and can block a shardblade.

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2 minutes ago, Llstml said:

Yes, but Radiants that have regrowth might heal faster than normal radiants, which would let them survive having their heads crushed, (unless you think that Renarin just got lucky against the thunderclast and it didn't smash his head at all). the healing speed is increased the more stormlight you have (I think).

The more damage there is, the more Stormlight is needed to heal it. And forcing the healing to go faster takes up even more Stormlight.

What I'm saying is that TLR could pulp the body so fast and so thoroughly that the Stormlight wouldn't get a chance to heal them, or they'd run out before it healed them.

I mean, he could splatter them into pieces. Not much left to heal there.

Edited by RShara
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With compounding, TLR doesn't need to eat or sleep, can move faster than sound, has immeasurable strength, weight, speed of thought and can literally heal from being burned to a crisp, beheaded, or from Shardblade wounds, and anything else you can think of. Fullborns are just ridiculously overpowered, and when they take a threat seriously, they're just unstoppable. He could mow through an army in a day or so without being tired. He could Soothe or Riot them into passivity or blind despair.

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Yes, he could do that, but he Might underestimate them at first, after all when you see someone wearing giant bulky indestructible armor, you would think "okay, if I can get past their armor, I can kill them" you wouldn't think: "those guys in armor obviously must regenerate, because that is a very common power, I should smash their heads in to make sure they die" 

10 minutes ago, RShara said:

What I'm saying is that TLR could pulp the body so fast and so thoroughly that the Stormlight wouldn't get a chance to heal them, or they'd run out before it healed them.

In OB Renarin does this:

Quote

The thunderclast's palm crashed down on Renarin, smashing him. Adolin screamed, but his brother's Shardblade cut up through the palm, then seperated the hand from the wrist. The thunderclast trumpeted in anger as Renarin climbed from the rubble of the hand. He seemed to heal more quickly than Kaladin or Shallan did, as if being crushed wasn't even a bother.

That is being crushed to a pulp, and he survived easily.

Edited by Llstml
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Just now, Llstml said:

Yes, he could do that, but he Might underestimate them at first, after all when you see someone wearing giant bulky indestructible armor, you would think "okay, if I can get past their armor, I can kill them" you wouldn't think: "those guys in armor obviously must regenerate, because that is a very common power, I should smash their heads in to make sure they die" 

I OB Renarin does this:

 

Crushed!=splattered into juice.

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14 minutes ago, Llstml said:

I doubt that the average coinshot could push on a shardblade, and the radiants can dismiss their blade as soon as they feel it being pushed on. If they have shardplate then this is a moot point as it seems to be specifically designed to protect radiants from being affected by investiture, and can block a shardblade.

That makes sense, perhaps a twinborn, compounding steel?

 

 

If TLR beheaded Renarin a couple of times, Renarin's stormlight would eventually run out.

Edited by FatherTiempo
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7 minutes ago, RShara said:

He got crushed. No details on how badly, I'm talking about a smear on the pavement levels, here.

I am still uncertain how he is going to deal with the CR transferred people who are going to be soulcasting at him.  Also we don't know all of the Bondsmith abilities.

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So being flattened by a 30 foot monster is somehow less damaging than what the lord ruler would do to you while you are wearing Shardplate strong enough to tank hits from said 30 foot tall monster? yes he could, turn them into smears, but would he? could he do it to at least 200 knights without running out of speed? yes he is a fullborn, but he is actually the most idiotic person in the world. As soon as Vin knocked off his Atium minds, he gave up. He could have tapped the other attributes to increase his speed, strength and health enough to kill Vin and recover his Atium minds, he could have run all the way to the pits of Hathsin to get Atium from the Kandra, but instead he sat on the floor and died.

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17 minutes ago, Llstml said:

So being flattened by a 30 foot monster is somehow less damaging than what the lord ruler would do to you while you are wearing Shardplate strong enough to tank hits from said 30 foot tall monster? yes he could, turn them into smears, but would he? could he do it to at least 200 knights without running out of speed? yes he is a fullborn, but he is actually the most idiotic person in the world. As soon as Vin knocked off his Atium minds, he gave up. He could have tapped the other attributes to increase his speed, strength and health enough to kill Vin and recover his Atium minds, he could have run all the way to the pits of Hathsin to get Atium from the Kandra, but instead he sat on the floor and died.

Which is why I said, "if he takes them seriously." With compounding, he literally would never run out of speed or strength or anything else.

Ever been hit by something going faster than sound? That's going to carry far more momentum than a slow moving but somewhat large object.

And don't forget the sonic booms.

Quote

Marasi clutched the spearhead in two hands.

And tapped everything.

Power flooded into her, lighting her up like an inferno. Snow hung motionless in the air. She stood up and reached to the belt of one of her captors, removing one of his vials of metal. She took them all, several from each guard, and drank them. She was tapping a metalmind, letting her move at a speed so fast that when she lifted her hand, she could briefly see the pocket of vacuum left behind. She smiled.

Then she burned her metals. All of them.

In that one transcendent moment, she felt herself change, expand. She felt the Lord Ruler’s own power, stored in the Bands of Mourning—the spearhead clutched in her fingers—surge through her, and she felt she would burst. It was as if an ocean of light had suddenly been pumped into her arteries and veins.

Blue lines exploded from her, first pointing at metals, then multiplying, changing, transforming. She saw through it all, everything in blue. There were no people or objects, just energy coalesced. The metals shone brilliantly, as if they were holes into someplace different. Concentrated essence, providing a pathway to power.

She was using the reserves with startling quickness. She slowed her speed, and for some reason the people beside her jumped, holding their ears. She cocked her head, then PUSHED.

The Push flung the guards a good fifty feet. That left her facing Suit and Telsin, who regarded her with horrified expressions. They were glowing energy to her, but she recognized them. They had spikes inside of them.

Convenient. Those spikes resisted Pushes, but not enough to bother Marasi now. She lifted a hand and flung both of them away by the very metals they’d used to pierce themselves.

All around, guards grabbed guns and turned on her. She swept them backward, then lifted herself off the ground, Pushing on the trace minerals in the stone beneath her.

She hung there, and was surprised to see something spinning around her. Mist? Where was it coming from?

Me, she realized.

She hovered in the sky, flush with power.

^This, +MUCH MUCH more, is what TLR can do. Overcoming the investiture in the spikes+them being inside people means he would certainly be able to Push on Shardplate and maybe even Blades.

And that's just with a relatively small set of metalminds and a handful or two of vials, without the ability to replenish them, like TLR could.

 

Quote

Questioner

Would Allomancy affect Shardplate or Shardblades?

Brandon Sanderson

It cannot affected Shardblades. Well, "cannot" is a strong word. Things with innate investiture are much more difficult to affect with any of the magics at all. Which is why it's very hard, for instance-- Szeth is not able to bind people, or Lash people wearing Shardplate to the ceiling. In the same Allomancy would not be able to Push on it without some help. Duralumin and a really strong [Steel]Push could probably do it. 

Questioner

I was just wondering if it's actually metal.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh yes. It is metal-ish... it is metal enough for Allomancy to work on it.

Words of Radiance Washington, DC signing (March 20, 2014)

 

Edited by RShara
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OK, here's a very simple scenario that TLR should be perfectly capable of. Because remember, unlike sitting in his throne room facing a 16 year old girl who surprised him with a miracle that was only possible because she figured out who he was, what his atiumminds were, and used the storming Mists to actually be able to pull them off him which he had every reason to believe was impossible... this is an all out war so he's going to be decked out in the proper metalminds and prepared, rather than waiting calmly for a death that by all rights shouldn't have come.

Rashek walks onto the field increases weight, speed, and mental speed, so that he's heavy, fast than sound, and able to track the whole battlefield. 

Then, while he moves from Radiant to Radiant at his leisure using both AandF pewter as simply one option to obliterate radiants with his bare hands, he pulls all of the mundane weapons out if the Rosharan armies hands to pull a Kelsier style metal storm to blender anyone in the area. With F-steel and F-zinc, he'd also have the attention to basically turn any piece of metal that's about to hit someone into an intended spike to add spiritual damage for kicks. 

Leave the inquisitors on the Cognitive side to take out people as they pop over to address Kargers concern... Hell take the whole army. 

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Can the Scadrians transition into the CR though? The Radiants have Two Orders that work outta Shadesmar and a third that touches it for some of its most dramatic effects. Can TLR Pierce illusions? Two Orders manipulate light. How much intelligence does TLR have on the Rosharans? Truthwatchers are likely to know what he is and his capabilities on site as well as the likely strategy he'll implement. And he ain't gonna be able to use emotional allomancy on those with plate. The more Honor leaning orders are likely screwed but Culti's Orders can turn the tide. Lightweaver Truthwatcher Elsecaller Willshaper, those are the key to defeating TLR. And truthfully without him Scadrians in the era we speak of have zero chance of breaking Roshar with all the ranks of KR filled out. 

One question I have that we haven't seen, can Radiants pool their powers and if so how would it work? Maybe it needs the presence of a Bondsmith, like with Shallan's map. Will it work like WOT style linking?

A Full 5 Radiant regardless of Order beats anyone on Scadrial not named Rashek, Ati or Leras. Rashek can destroy an uninvested world single handed and likely several armies regardless of the level of Investiture. But Rashek taking on the entire Knight Radiant alone, that's tough even for him. And he's going to be alone, no matter the numbers he brings only an Inquisitor lasts more than 2 minutes against an army of Knights. One Full 5 Stoneward can eliminate an army of mundanes just by turning the ground into quicksand just as an example. 

I'm picking Roshar personally but it's a close run thing. Fullborn are ridiculously OP. Unfortunately for Scadrial, they only have one of those. Now if TLR decided via Hemalugy to create an army of lesser Fullborn then the contest probably goes to the Scadrians instead.

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52 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Can the Scadrians transition into the CR though? The Radiants have Two Orders that work outta Shadesmar and a third that touches it for some of its most dramatic effects.

In order to reach this neutral ground in Era 1, they have to have access. And I feel comfortable granting them that if we're allowing the radiants to have their spren off world. Because without that unspoken advantage, they'd be worthless. 

52 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Can TLR Pierce illusions? Two Orders manipulate light.

Considering Brandon has called him "nearly a Savant in all metals" and metal sight doesn't require spikes, I believe so. Inquisitors can't see their own reflection. Their vision isn't based off of light, so illusions would be useless against them, and I'd be surprised if TLR can't use that. 

And everyone is ignoring the trump card  that's going to apply to every Mistborn and the inquisitors and TLR, in addition to all of his other powers. 

Atium. 

Quote

Questioner

Who do you think would win, an atium misting, or Kaladin with Syl?

Brandon Sanderson

The atium misting, as long as they have enough atium, is probably got an advantage, but Kaladin can fly. So, I would bet on Kaladin, meaning he flies up high, waits 'til they run out of atium, then gets them.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

Brandon says Kaladin would have to wait out an atium mistings metal. 

Good luck Roshar. 

Edited by Calderis
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So are we granting the Scadrians a Trust Warren amount of Atium? Otherwise I don't see quite as much advantage in Atium usage, it runs out too fast and some of the things an Atium misting can do are negated by someone in Shardplate. I can't hit the misting but nothing he has can hurt me, especially if I'm chalked full of Stormlight too. Now TLR + Atium is a completely different kettle of fish. Between that and F-steel it makes it nearly impossible to checkmate him. 

If I'm team Roshar I am changing the landscape as often and as randomly as possible to limit TLR's advantages in speed and manuverability. Walls, mazes, domes, sky fighting, soulcasting away all immediate metal sources, dismissed Shardblades, realm jumping. I'm making him use up his F-zinc and taking A-Atium out of play until I can bring to bear a significant numerical advantage after he's burned off at least some of his reserves. Roshar has time and a Bondsmith on their side. They can wear down TLR, the only person on the battlefield with any hope of hurting a Radiant. And the Bondsmith can supercharge everyone with Stormlight. Rashek cannot survive a protracted battle with so many Invested opposing him. He must end them quickly or else. He has the tools to do so. 

If I'm Rashek and I know this battle is coming, I'm creating a bunch of Fullborn so I'm not limited in my attack posture. More people capable of hurting a Knight means more people Roshar has to account for. I can pick my spots and guarantee victory. But I won't be able to use my normal means of information gathering, the Kandra get outed by spren. Can a Kandra draw a Spren?

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6 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

So are we granting the Scadrians a Trust Warren amount of Atium? Otherwise I don't see quite as much advantage in Atium usage, it runs out too fast and some of the things an Atium misting can do are negated by someone in Shardplate. I can't hit the misting but nothing he has can hurt me, especially if I'm chalked full of Stormlight too. Now TLR + Atium is a completely different kettle of fish. Between that and F-steel it makes it nearly impossible to checkmate him. 

If Kaladin can put a spear through a shardbearers eyeslit without atium, I see no reason a Mistborn or inquisitor couldn't exploit the same weakness when they know exactly where to move to land it there. And I still say leave them on the Cognitive side where Soulcasting isn't going to be much help (and Cohesion doesn't work on living targets anyway) to take out anyone who tries to move over to that side while TLR dominates the Physical. 

13 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

If I'm team Roshar I am changing the landscape as often and as randomly as possible to limit TLR's advantages in speed and manuverability. Walls, mazes, domes, sky fighting, soulcasting away all immediate metal sources, dismissed Shardblades, realm jumping. I'm making him use up his F-zinc and taking A-Atium out of play until I can bring to bear a significant numerical advantage after he's burned off at least some of his reserves. Roshar has time and a Bondsmith on their side. They can wear down TLR, the only person on the battlefield with any hope of hurting a Radiant. And the Bondsmith can supercharge everyone with Stormlight. Rashek cannot survive a protracted battle with so many Invested opposing him. He must end them quickly or else. He has the tools to do so.

And with his ability to act, I just don't see how that's possible. You're not going to change the landscape faster than he can traverse it. The Bondsmiths can't open a perp, and "supercharging" a single Radiant exhausted Dalinar. So you what... Supercharge 3-6 radiants and remove your Bondsmiths from the field? 

There's no chance for a protracted battle here. 

16 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

If I'm Rashek and I know this battle is coming, I'm creating a bunch of Fullborn so I'm not limited in my attack posture. More people capable of hurting a Knight means more people Roshar has to account for. I can pick my spots and guarantee victory. But I won't be able to use my normal means of information gathering, the Kandra get outed by spren. Can a Kandra draw a Spren?

I don't see any need for that. He can take down any radiant beyond their ability to heal, especially if he uses his Hemalurgic knowledge to damage souls, assuming they can survive decapitation at all. And why would Kandra be outed by spren? We know that there already one on Roshar. And we have no idea who it is. A Kandra could draw a spren themselves, but they're under the first contract. Using that year for information gathering is all they're good for. 

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What I mean for this to be is a "what if" scenario, the two sides are simply on a world, they did not come through the cognitive realm, lets say a shard transported them through the spiritual realm. Scadrial and Roshar have no prior knowledge of each other, I simply said that they had one year to gather armies, not to gather information.

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So they have a year notice of a battle, but no information about what's coming? 

OK then. TLR functions like normal. Sit back and send in skaa conscripts to see how things work. Send in Koloss, Allomancers to support, inquisitors and Mistborn as muscle and night assassins, and when that falls apart, he still wades in and destroys because of what he is. 

The Kandra are useless because of the first contract and language barriers preventing time to effectively spy. 

I still don't think anyone's going to manage to soulcast him when he does act so the radiants that can manage to retreat to the Cognitive escape. 

And this is all still reliant on spren being functional after being ripped away from Roshar in a way that isn't natural to them. It's hardly neutral ground. 

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1 hour ago, FatherTiempo said:

So, I'm confused about compounding. Miles hundred lives was compounding, but they still could kill him. Wouldn't TLR only have as much healing power as Miles?

They had to capture him, basically a dozen people dogpile on him, and take his metalminds away before they could kill him. And even then, he had swallowed some of them, so it still took multiple gunshot volleys before they could manage to kill him. Remember, he set off a stick of dynamite that he was holding in his hand, in order to get out of a set of nets, and walked away from it with nothing more than ripped clothing. Now imagine that, but with every single Feruchemical ability.

24 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I still don't think anyone's going to manage to soulcast him when he does act so the radiants that can manage to retreat to the Cognitive escape. 


They couldn't even manage to see him, let alone catch him long enough to soulcast.

Edited by RShara
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29 minutes ago, RShara said:

They couldn't even manage to see him, let alone catch him long enough to soulcast.

I agree. The argument was that the Elsecallers would be able to transition into the Cognitive and then somehow work together to overcome the insane resistance of him compounding everything, and burning straight allomantic powers to soulcast him from a place they can't be hurt. 

That assumes they're able to transition before he's on them, they still have enough Investiture to effectively soulcast, that they can reach his Cognitive representation to do it in the first place, and that they can somehow "work together" to manage it. 

I don't agree with any of it. 

Edited by Calderis
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1 hour ago, Calderis said:

If Kaladin can put a spear through a shardbearers eyeslit without atium, I see no reason a Mistborn or inquisitor couldn't exploit the same weakness when they know exactly where to move to land it there. And I still say leave them on the Cognitive side where Soulcasting isn't going to be much help (and Cohesion doesn't work on living targets anyway) to take out anyone who tries to move over to that side while TLR dominates the Physical. 

Atium misting puts a knife through the viewslit of Radiant armor. Radiant heals damage in eyeblink. Fight continues.

 

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

And with his ability to act, I just don't see how that's possible. You're not going to change the landscape faster than he can traverse it. The Bondsmiths can't open a perp, and "supercharging" a single Radiant exhausted Dalinar. So you what... Supercharge 3-6 radiants and remove your Bondsmiths from the field? 

There's no chance for a protracted battle here

If Rashek shows up in their midst then sure, nothing they can do. But as invested as TLR is as well as his OPness, I cannot imagine a scenario where they don't see him coming for miles away. Even if they aren't looking through the CR and seeing the disturbance in the force, they have superior scouts in the Windrunners. F-steel is negated in air battles, any Windrunners worth her salt will be able to outfly him, and if they're flying high enough He may not even notice he's being observed. 

As for Kandra being outed, I don't see the Knights bringing anyone to this battle who isn't Invested, either as a Knight or a squire. A sprenless Kandra would stand out like a sore thumb. But even if they brought servants, wouldn't a Truthwatcher see through the guise almost immediately?

Dalinar supercharged a couple Radiants and was exhausted...as a 3 Oath Bondsmith. Kaladin/Syl would have issues with an Atium misting...as a 3 Oath Windrunner with no one to guide him in what is possible for him and his surges. The problem is one of projection. We know what Rashek is capable of already. We don't know what a Full 5 Radiant will be able to do, we can only project based on what we've seen so far. We both agree that the ceiling for any Radiant is significantly lower than Rashek, so much so that a couple hundred Radiants should pose only minimal problems for him. But what will we see when there are over 1000 of them, 20% of those being Full 5 and all but a few are armored? Every one of those suited characters are likely twice as strong as any Thug and far faster than something that big should move. The non awakened version of this armor jumps 40 ft chasms and can take a hit from a multi-ton chasmfiend without cracking. Invested Variable weaponry even for those with no armor?

Inquisitors only have a slight advantage against Squires. A Knight with Armor? Let him try that weak sauce against Division, they'll burn him until only his spikes are left.

I still contend that Rashek is gonna need more Fullborn if he hopes to win vs. Roshar. By himself he can kill a lot of people but he's the only one who can. Scadrians don't have a weapon that can harm a Knight for long. Coins bounce off armor like a particularly annoying hailstorm, obsidian shatters, and unless an Inquisitor can punch as hard as a chasmfiend or thunderclast then they'll only get a broken hand for their trouble. If Shallan can heal a crossbow bolt through the skull a knife through the viewslit should pose only mild inconvenience. To kill even one Knight Rashek has to hit hard enough to both shatter plate and completely obliterate the skull it protects. Any weapon he could use shatters in his hands either from the force he uses to weild it or the force he applies to the target. He'd have to do it by hand or by coinshot tricks, but every push, every hit has to be of duralumin fueled strength to break armor and only he could manage it. Unarmored foes can be murdered by the thousands, hell dead Shardblades and unpowered armor was good for at least a couple hundred per battle. Armor foes will be harder. Personally I think it takes Rashek 2 punches per Knight, one to puff off the helm and another to ruin the skull. Even with F-steel it will take time. Atium obviously helps but it ain't Cadmium Bendalloy.

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