Scadrial vs Roshar.

[StanLemon]

16 hours ago, Karger said:

Considering we don't know much about what materials are available to either army I see no reason why the Radinats could not have a significant amount of Stormlight.  I would also like to point out that the 7 Radiants(three of the 10 did nothing in the battle) were not fully realized.  Most of them were at the third ideal.  Finally there is Lanchester’s Law.  Those Radiants were outnumbered by orders of magnitude and had several different objectives which meant they were split up and much easier to overwhelm.  Dalinar says that an individual shardbearer with the element of surprise could break his entire army to the point where they would have to retreat(the Rift).  Adolin and one freind during WoR kill a good couple hundred Parshendi and neither of them can surgebind.  We have never seen a large number of Radiants go to war.

And a force of probably a 1000 Radiants wouldn't be outnumbered  by magnitudes? Also, using modern Skybreakers as an example, most Radiants likely weren't fully realized. Compound that problem with the fact that the majority  of them weren't  warriors means they weren't as effective as you think

[StanLemon]

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I can pull up the quotes regarding Szeth and Kaladin where they lash themselves to fly to get an idea, though off the cuff it lasts far longer than seconds. Lashing seems to depend on three things:

1. type of lashing used (quarter lightens you, half makes you weightless, full changes direction of gravitational pull)

2. number of lashings

3. size of the target lashed. 

 

So if you use a full lashing, with multiple lashings, on a large target, it is going to take a lot of stormlight, and last a relatively short amount of time (as evidenced by the rock Szeth lashed more than 15 times, to crush the shardbearer. Keep in mind he did not mention the stormlight running out and the stone falling. It kept the shardbearer's dead body pinned.)

Szeth used multiple lashes to change direction and strength repeatedly and showed no sign of slowing down, both in use, as well as stormlight increased speed and healing. Again this is from a user that is inefficient when compared to a 3rd oath windrunner. 4th and 5th oath radiants would be even more efficient. 

Except it isn't just the Lashing itself that drains Stormlight. Also, I would like a reference or example that shows that they get more efficient as they swear oaths. I must have missed a WoB or there isn't on on it and if you compare the first fight between  Kaladin and Szeth I don't think that that is a valid comparison  as at the time of the first fightKaladin didn't really properly  know how to use Stormlight.

[Pathfinder]

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

And a force of probably a 1000 Radiants wouldn't be outnumbered  by magnitudes? Also, using modern Skybreakers as an example, most Radiants likely weren't fully realized. Compound that problem with the fact that the majority  of them weren't  warriors means they weren't as effective as you think

I think the point they were making was in regards to the type of powers used. Let us take the stonewards, and limit their power usage. Let us say one can use cohesion to melt a area of stone in front of him or her, like we see in the vision. That would catch what? Five? Ten koloss? That is a low power usage, on a single knight's scale. Add windrunners swooping in slicing with giant blades that slice right through whatever the koloss is using. How many could a windrunner, using minimal stormlight in that case take out? 10? 20? Doesn't even have to be a fully oathed windrunner to do it. Then there are skybreakers using division to carpet bomb. Edgedancers sliding between the koloss slicing out with their blades. Lightweavers illusions distracting the koloss, resulting them in slicing into each other. Again, doesn't have to be a grand use of the powers. Just a three or so illusions per lightweaver distracting. Dustbringers could slip and slide among the koloss burning them, setting fire in their wake. We see Lift use abrasion for extended periods of time off a little food. Do not see why that would be a large use of stormlight. Elsecallers can do as jasnah did. Now this is debated, but from what I read of the book, she did the disease transformation trick, soulcasted a wall, and steps all before the joining of the realms. So a good soulcaster can accomplish quite a bit. Then there are willshapers who (potentially) can teleport in and out slicing and dicing. 

Just saying each radiant could, with minimal power usage, take out a fair chunk of koloss. Increase power usage, and have a bondsmith overcharge them, and I think that goes up. 

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

Except it isn't just the Lashing itself that drains Stormlight. Also, I would like a reference or example that shows that they get more efficient as they swear oaths. I must have missed a WoB or there isn't on on it and if you compare the first fight between  Kaladin and Szeth I don't think that that is a valid comparison  as at the time of the first fightKaladin didn't really properly  know how to use Stormlight.

No problem. Give me like a half an hour to pull up the quotes in the books for both Kaladin and Szeth showing increased stormlight efficiency. Szeth alone goes from constantly having to draw in stormlight, to that scene I showed you. 

Right, speed and healing also drains stormlight. Which Szeth did in that scene while doing all those lashings. That is why I referenced it. 

 

edit: got a bit swamped. For a quick few references, please refer to Way of Kings page 24. Szeth on average can manage about 3 to 4 lashings between inhalations, but the big one is when he lashes the stone to crush the two men. Szeth had just drew stormlight in, and placed one lashing on a heavy stone he cut from the wall (just like the scene I mentioned prior), and almost drains all his stormlight. Conversely the scene later I mentioned had Szeth use over 15 lashes before it drained almost all his stormlight. In the section of page 24, Szeth gets punched in the face by a shardbearer and mentions how long it will take for stormlight to heal it. While on page 374 of Words of Radiance, Szeth gets run through by two spears (one from Dalinar, one from Kaladin), and he heals that damage in seconds, while still being able to surgebind. Also page 1024 shows Szeth healing at an accelerated rate from multiple wounds from multiple soldiers that he killed, all with plenty of stormlight over to surgebind. But this was more used to support my claim that Szeth was on his way to being a savant, rather than advancing in oaths since you cannot advance in oaths on an honorblade. Kaladin's and Shallan's (her use of lightweaving improves and becomes more efficient as well) will come a bit later. Sorry for not having the time right now to list what is used when. 

 

@StanLemon I updated this point with some references for Szeth. Will try and work on Kaladin and Shallan later. 

 

edit 2: oh yeah and lift! how much she eats and how often between surgebinding has changed. 

Edited October 24, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

4 hours ago, StanLemon said:

And a force of probably a 1000 Radiants wouldn't be outnumbered  by magnitudes? Also, using modern Skybreakers as an example, most Radiants likely weren't fully realized. Compound that problem with the fact that the majority  of them weren't  warriors means they weren't as effective as you think

They would but the number of magnitudes would probably be less.  Unless TLR has millions of battle hardened troops that he can call on.  Your 1000 Radiants would be outnumbered a few hundread to one.  That sounds bad except when you realize that at theylen field we are dealing with a good 10,000 of Armaram's troops vs 7 Radiants several of whom (Dalinar, and Lift) are not even fighting!  I would also like to point out that all of these Radinats were on their own more or less making them quite easy to flank and pin down.

[StanLemon]

3 hours ago, Karger said:

They would but the number of magnitudes would probably be less.  Unless TLR has millions of battle hardened troops that he can call on.  Your 1000 Radiants would be outnumbered a few hundread to one.  That sounds bad except when you realize that at theylen field we are dealing with a good 10,000 of Armaram's troops vs 7 Radiants several of whom (Dalinar, and Lift) are not even fighting!  I would also like to point out that all of these Radinats were on their own more or less making them quite easy to flank and pin down.

Except as I pointed out before in this Thread, it wasn't against just 7 Radiants. The Thaylen city guard also was participating. That wasn't anywhere near as small of a force protecting Thaylen city as 7 Radiants. And a big reason that they were even able to do as well as they did was because Amaram's troops had the weakness of a keystone in the form of The Thrill and they had access to all the Stormlight they could possibly want.

[Karger]

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

Except as I pointed out before in this Thread, it wasn't against just 7 Radiants. The Thaylen city guard also was participating. That wasn't anywhere near as small of a force protecting Thaylen city as 7 Radiants. And a big reason that they were even able to do as well as they did was because Amaram's troops had the weakness of a keystone in the form of The Thrill and they had access to all the Stormlight they could possibly want.

If you are going to throw in the Theylen city guard then I am putting in the dozens or hundreds of fused in this calculation.  Most of the army was easily distracted(like Kolass could be) by Shallan's illusions.

[Rich2244]

I honestly think this is very simple, all of Scadrials forces would be absolutely decimated by the Rosharan force you describe, apart from TLR.

TLR if he was given sufficient time to prepare, several days with metals and a blacksmith, would probably be capable of fighting all of Roshars forces combined unless fully realised knights have abilities that are more broken than we have seen so far.