Who or What Would Win debate?

[Honorless]

@FictionSpren2019, bad choice of words on my part, just 'get-out-of-jail-card' would be better

@The traveller, while teleportation is possible in the Cosmere, perhaps through some kind of fast travel network via the Cognitive Realm or straight up utilizing the Spiritual Realm where time and distance has no meaning, the Surge of Transportation shouldn't be able to do what you described by either the magic system in question or the narrative.

What would be required for teleportation? In real world, your body would be destroyed on one end and recreated on the other. Wormholes won't work (if they were to exist, they've been mathematically proven to be possible not necessary probable) because while they'll transfer matter to the other side, life requires some truly delicate handling to remain, well, alive.

Either method is doable in the Cosmere: Destroying a body and recreating the same body is possible via the use of Identity, maintaining the continuity of the subject's consciousness by them continuing to exist as a Cognitive Shadow.

The other method is, as I mentioned earlier, by establishing a method of fast travel through the Cognitive Realm. Not true teleportation in the sense of instantaneous travel between two points without having to traverse the distance between them but it sort of fits. Jasnah can do that. Anything more would require fabrials, and I think we've already seen the fabrials in question, the Oathgates.

The third is through the Spiritual Realm, though we have no proof if it can be done.

⚠ Aether of Night ⚠

Spoiler

That book does have an example of some form of near-instantaneous travel. It is not true teleportation either though, because the distance between the two points is being traversed, just really really fast. Possibly within the Physical Realm itself.

The first method might be how the Heralds travel between Roshar and Braize (Damnation), it could also be by simply walking through the Cognitive Realm. The Fused do something similar too, except instead of a recreating their previous body, they just body-jack other Singers.

In conclusion, teleportation might require something akin to what Dalinar did at the end of Oathbringer, which is already far beyond the purview of even the Bondsmiths (he could only do that because Stormfather became the Cognitive Shadow of Honor)

Narratively, that kind of diminishes the importance given to Oathgates.

Also, one has to remember that the spren aren't dæmons like in 'His Dark Materials' trilogy. They are sapient beings independent of their Radiants. Radiancy isn't just a Radiant's magic, it's an alliance between humans and spren, though a very intimate one. We saw with the records of the ancient Radiants that politics and trade with the spren was an important part of the Elsecallers' duties. They have a very important Surge with Transportation, which they utilise to fulfill a crucial role. Teleportation, on the other hand, is a "niche" that has been already filled by the Oathgates.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Honorless

[Aon Tia]

I think I need to do some checking on how the oathgates do it and then see if it is possible for an individual to do as well. 

 

2 hours ago, Honorless said:

The other method is, as I mentioned earlier, by establishing a method of fast travel through the Cognitive Realm. Not true teleportation in the sense of instantaneous travel between two points without having to traverse the distance between them but it sort of fits. Jasnah can do that.

I agree that travel faster than light via CR seems to be what the oathgates do too. 

But if elsecalling is only for elsecaller order then what does the surge do for willshapers? 

Quote

near-instantaneous travel. It is not true teleportation either though, because the distance between the two points is being traversed, just really really fast. Possibly within the Physical Realm itself.

This works too as something that the surge of transportation provides. I will take it. 

2 hours ago, Honorless said:

 

2 hours ago, Honorless said:

n conclusion, teleportation might require something akin to what Dalinar did at the end of Oathbringer, which is already far beyond the purview of even the Bondsmiths (he could only do that because Stormfather became the Cognitive Shadow of Honor)

It is not a viable option also as it really strains him, oathgates are better and easier option.

[Honorless]

16 minutes ago, The traveller said:

I think I need to do some checking on how the oathgates do it and then see if it is possible for an individual to do as well. 

 

I agree that travel faster than light via CR seems to be what the oathgates do too. 

But if elsecalling is only for elsecaller order then what does the surge do for willshapers? 

This works too as something that the surge of transportation provides. I will take it. 

It is not a viable option also as it really strains him, oathgates are better and easier option.

We don't know how the Oathgates function, we'll just have to wait and see.

 

Elsecalling isn't just for Elsecallers, all Orders share a Surge with another, so Willshapers can Elsecall too. It might do something similar in a different manner though. If the confusion is from the Elsecallers' role comment then, that role was taken up by an Order of Knights Radiant not just a Surgebinding Order, keeping in mind that the former is as much a socio-political institution as it is a group of people with a certain skillset. This is demonstrated here:

Quote

As to the other orders that were inferior in this visiting of the far realm of spren, the Elsecallers were prodigiously benevolent, allowing others as auxiliary to their visits and interactions; though they did never relinquish their place as prime liaisons with the great ones of the spren; and the Lightweavers and Willshapers both also had an affinity to the same, though neither were true masters of that realm.

—Words of Radiance, chapter 6

Plus, once political connection has been established, sending a different party to maintain diplomatic relations seems suboptimal.

This kind of diplomacy may become necessary again as the Stoneward spren, Willshaper spren (Spark is an outlier) and Ashspren in particular still harbour dislike towards humans for the Recreance.

 

Connecting the Three Realms would be hard, it was as much an effect of the Words he spoke as conscious decision to provide a way back into the Physical Realm for Kaladin, Shallan & Adolin, as well as to provide an edge to his own side by providing them with Stormlight (which we see him discussing with The Stormfather). So yeah, not a viable alternative to the Oathgates.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Honorless

[Aon Tia]

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

As to the other orders that were inferior in this visiting of the far realm of spren, the Elsecallers were prodigiously benevolent, allowing others as auxiliary to their visits and interactions; though they did never relinquish their place as prime liaisons with the great ones of the spren; and the Lightweavers and Willshapers both also had an affinity to the same, though neither were true masters of that realm.

I always took it to mean that elsecalling was easier and worked better for elsecallers than willshapers because it says “the others were inferior in this visiting”.....

I did not think that it was solely a matter of political preference. 

[Honorless]

1 minute ago, The traveller said:

I always took it to mean that elsecalling was easier and worked better for elsecallers than willshapers because it says “the others were inferior in this visiting”.....

I did not think that it was solely a matter of political preference. 

Not solely. The Elsecallers also had the Surge of Transformation. Soulcasting allowed them to view the Cognitive Realm while leaving their Physical body behind. I would count it as another eg of complimentary Surges (same as Lightweavers' "solid illusions" and Dustbringers' friction+division), it might've been beneficial for scouting the area of the Cognitive Realm where they intended to go before Transporting there, maybe

[Aon Tia]

5 minutes ago, Honorless said:

it might've been beneficial for scouting the area of the Cognitive Realm where they intended to go before Transporting there, maybe

Yes I can see the tactical advantage that offers. It just makes more sense to have the one order with both surges related to interacting with CR to be given the spren-human relations department. 

 

[Honorless]

On 10/21/2019 at 4:40 PM, The traveller said:

I agree that travel faster than light via CR seems to be what the oathgates do too. 

@The traveller, found something on it:

Spoiler

A WoB mentions that Forgers can't Forge a car into thinking it was parked in another different parking spot.

So, Oathgates may be using straight up Spiritual Connection & Identity to do what they're doing.

 

[Aon Tia]

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

@The traveller, found something on it:

  Hide contents

A WoB mentions that Forgers can't Forge a car into thinking it was parked in another different parking spot.

So, Oathgates may be using straight up Spiritual Connection & Identity to do what they're doing.

 

that would be so cool. That just blew my mind right now!!

Spoiler

oathgates functioning could be similar to it believing that people standing on it are actually standing on the other oathgate?? and that actually causes transfer of people in the PR. Something that forging can not do, may be possible on roshar..

I am just not very clear on the concepts of Spiritual Connection and identity... What exactly are you implying? All the oathgates are spiritually connected and they also have an aspect of identity, so using the connection they can exchange people from one to the other?

[Honorless]

19 minutes ago, The traveller said:

I am just not very clear on the concepts of Spiritual Connection and identity... What exactly are you implying? All the oathgates are spiritually connected and they also have an aspect of identity, so using the connection they can exchange people from one to the other?

No one is yet. Complete Realmatic Theory would come about around the time of Mistborn 4.

As I think it would work:

The Oathgates are all Connected. Transfer might be done along the lines of these Connections and/or Identity may be used to make one platform think it was another platform or in the location of the other platform (kinda like Soulcasting and Forgery but also quite different) [I highlighted Soulcasting because it is the Surge held by the Elsecallers alongside Transportation]

Edited October 23, 2019 by Honorless