Honorless Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, mathiau said: Actually what I meant by "magically" was that killing people with a sheathed sword supposed to be very hard (you must kill by blunt force with a 1kg object not meant for that) so I expected that "killing with the sheath on" was one of Nightblood powers Also thank @Honorless for the Sliver topic You're welcome! It does seem to be a Nightblood power though. He's not a normal sword. You don't need to cut someone to kill. The moment the sheath is up even a little, he is free to kill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+TheFoxQR Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 My theory is that it is one of a trio of Realmic Neutral Metals - Aluminium corresponding to the spiritual, Silver to the Cognitive and something else for the Physical. Aluminium resists spiritual change, Silver resists Cognitive change, and so on. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 6 minutes ago, TheFoxQR said: My theory is that it is one of a trio of Realmic Neutral Metals - Aluminium corresponding to the spiritual, Silver to the Cognitive and something else for the Physical. Aluminium resists spiritual change, Silver resists Cognitive change, and so on. Ooh, I like that idea. Perhaps lead? There's no particular reason for it to be lead, I just want it to be lead. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, TheFoxQR said: My theory is that it is one of a trio of Realmic Neutral Metals - Aluminium corresponding to the spiritual, Silver to the Cognitive and something else for the Physical. Aluminium resists spiritual change, Silver resists Cognitive change, and so on. An aluminium misting can stop the withering from a shade so I feel like the "Aluminium resists spiritual change, Silver resists Cognitive" classification doesn't really work (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76-shadows-of-self-chicago-signing/#e6374) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, mathiau said: An aluminium misting can stop the withering from a shade so I feel like the "Aluminium resists spiritual change, Silver resists Cognitive" classification doesn't really work (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76-shadows-of-self-chicago-signing/#e6374) Well, Identity is as much a Spiritual attribute as it is Cognitive (and that is the component usually used for healing in the Cosmere). The theory can't be proven or disproven as it stands since we simply don't have enough info. Edited October 17, 2019 by Honorless 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, Honorless said: Well, Identity is as much a Spiritual attribute as it is Cognitive. The theory can't be proven or disproven as it stands since we simply don't have enough info. Wait, shades corrupt Identity? I meant that if Silver protect from cognitive effects and Aluminium from spirituals ones they should not be able to protect from the same effects but I had not thought mixed effects could exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, mathiau said: Wait, shades corrupt Identity? I meant that if Silver protect from cognitive effects and Aluminium from spirituals ones they should not be able to protect from the same effects but I had not thought mixed effects could exists. We haven't been expressly told so but I suspect that to be the case. Otherwise why would healing by silver be on a timer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Honorless said: We haven't been expressly told so but I suspect that to be the case. Otherwise why would healing by silver be on a timer? I would expect any wound to the soul/spirit to put you on a timer, whether or not they touch the identity. Also bloodmaking can save you from withering and if I understand bloodmaking and regrowth correctly it modify the body so it is closer to your identity (which is why you can't heal wounds that are too old as you now consider them as part of you) so I would expect withering is not corrupting identity Although if the withering IS corrupting identity, it could be possible that the grey part of the body cannot be cured bloodmaking can stop it the from spreading (as the spreading line would not have a corrupt identity yet) (reference for bloodmaking healing shade withering https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76-shadows-of-self-chicago-signing/#e6374) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 From what we've been shown, Identity the Spiritual trait, and identity in the way we normally use it are not interconnected. Blanking your Identity and healing shouldn't change any limitations your self perception has created. Identity is more Investiture security ID than it is how you identify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 hour ago, mathiau said: Actually what I meant by "magically" was that killing people with a sheathed sword supposed to be very hard (you must kill by blunt force with a 1kg object not meant for that) so I expected that "killing with the sheath on" was one of Nightblood powers Also thank @Honorless for the Sliver topic That was my read of the WOB, he said "merely touching them with the sheath when the smoke is leaking can be deadly." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MountainKing Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 I think Aluminum is an investiture sink because of something in its spiritweb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halyo_Alex Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 3 hours ago, Honorless said: Ooh, I like that idea. Perhaps lead? There's no particular reason for it to be lead, I just want it to be lead. I like it as well, but what metal would physically resist change? that makes it sound like it would have to be immutable by mundane means only (and could be the most powerful metal for someone to Soulcast into, as it would be unchangeable without a Spiritual/Cognitive alteration). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said: I like it as well, but what metal would physically resist change? that makes it sound like it would have to be immutable by mundane means only (and could be the most powerful metal for someone to Soulcast into, as it would be unchangeable without a Spiritual/Cognitive alteration). It would need to be an imaginary metal (or non-metal), every thing else can be physically fused/destroyed. It would probably end up as some kind of cosmere adamantium. (so it cannot be lead, sorry @Honorless) Edited October 17, 2019 by mathiau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 10 minutes ago, mathiau said: It would need to be an imaginary metal (or non-metal), every thing else can be physically fused/destroyed. It would probably end up as some kind of cosmere adamantium. (so it cannot be lead, sorry @Honorless) Alternatively, it could be mercury which by virtue of its liquid state is entirely resistant to anything I would call permanent physical damage. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Quantus said: Alternatively, it could be mercury which by virtue of its liquid state is entirely resistant to anything I would call permanent physical damage. Anything liquid can be split in part (you poor a part in a glass and not the rest) so while it can be undone it can be damage, not like aluminium. While it is possible that the hypothetical physical-resistant metal is less insanely resistant than aluminium (silver can be corrupted by shades) it would need to be more resistant than that to be usable. Also mercury is only liquid at room temperature+pressure but not sure a physical-resistant metal would need to be resistant in settings men cannot live (which kind of undermine my "cannot be fused" argument in the last post, oops) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, Calderis said: From what we've been shown, Identity the Spiritual trait, and identity in the way we normally use it are not interconnected. Blanking your Identity and healing shouldn't change any limitations your self perception has created. Identity is more Investiture security ID than it is how you identify. Wasn't healing described as peeking into one's Spiritual perfect self and applying it on the body? Then again the Realms leak into each other. If access to Cognitive Identity is all it takes to change an object's form as we see in Soulcasting and Forging, then you're probably right and self-perception is used for healing. Edited October 18, 2019 by Honorless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 53 minutes ago, Honorless said: Wasn't healing described as peeking into one's Spiritual perfect self and applying it on the body? Then again the Realms leak into each other. If access to Cognitive Identity is all it takes to change an object's form as we see in Soulcasting and Forging, then you're probably right and self-perception is used for healing. It does tie into a sort of Spiritual template, described as a "Ideal" self, that the body tries to match... But I don't think that's Identity. For a couple reasons. First, for healing mechanics if Identity were the issue then the state you were in when you stored should effect its output. No need to worry about any Cognitive issues preventing a healing as long as that gold mind is from before the injury... And then by extension you have to ask if someone is healed while dumping Identity in aluminum... Does the healing fail or is that another way to ignore the limitations to healing? I just don't think Identity matters in this regard. Secondly, Identity is the key that says Investiture that's external to yourself is yours. People can't use your metalminds because it's suffused with your Identity. Hemalurgic spikes inherently steal Identity to the point that it's sometimes possible to use a Feruchemists metalminds who the ability was taken from (and consequently, the Identity conflict is why I think bindpoints are such a huge deal). Only the Awakener who placed Breath in an object can retrieve it because it's keyed to their Identity... But a lifeless (or Type IV) can't be retrieved because they are close enough to life to have developed an Identity of their own that the breath rekeys itself to. And this is consequently why I disagree vehemently with the lesser spren plate theory. Because shardplate stops Surges from effecting the wearer or being used... Unless it's their own plate, and then they can use Surges through it or on it. Which means it shares their Identity, which even lesser spren should have an Identity of their own as living beings of pure Investiture that would interfere with even the Radiant. Identity seems to be something that's complex due to how pervasive it is... But at it's core is the simplest Spiritual function we know of. It's a fingerprint on Investiture that says "this belongs to me" 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 30 minutes ago, Calderis said: It does tie into a sort of Spiritual template, described as a "Ideal" self, that the body tries to match... But I don't think that's Identity. For a couple reasons. First, for healing mechanics if Identity were the issue then the state you were in when you stored should effect its output. No need to worry about any Cognitive issues preventing a healing as long as that gold mind is from before the injury... And then by extension you have to ask if someone is healed while dumping Identity in aluminum... Does the healing fail or is that another way to ignore the limitations to healing? I just don't think Identity matters in this regard. Secondly, Identity is the key that says Investiture that's external to yourself is yours. People can't use your metalminds because it's suffused with your Identity. Hemalurgic spikes inherently steal Identity to the point that it's sometimes possible to use a Feruchemists metalminds who the ability was taken from (and consequently, the Identity conflict is why I think bindpoints are such a huge deal). Only the Awakener who placed Breath in an object can retrieve it because it's keyed to their Identity... But a lifeless (or Type IV) can't be retrieved because they are close enough to life to have developed an Identity of their own that the breath rekeys itself to. And this is consequently why I disagree vehemently with the lesser spren plate theory. Because shardplate stops Surges from effecting the wearer or being used... Unless it's their own plate, and then they can use Surges through it or on it. Which means it shares their Identity, which even lesser spren should have an Identity of their own as living beings of pure Investiture that would interfere with even the Radiant. Identity seems to be something that's complex due to how pervasive it is... But at it's core is the simplest Spiritual function we know of. It's a fingerprint on Investiture that says "this belongs to me" That just leaves me with burning questions about Connection. Isn't that the Spiritual component used to connect with a different land to speak their native language? Shouldn't that be a Cognitive component? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Honorless said: That just leaves me with burning questions about Connection. Isn't that the Spiritual component used to connect with a different land to speak their native language? Shouldn't that be a Cognitive component? Connection is... In my opinion, probably the most complicated of all of the Spiritual traits. I don't think there's much it's not involved in. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 3 hours ago, Calderis said: Connection is... In my opinion, probably the most complicated of all of the Spiritual traits. I don't think there's much it's not involved in. Oh Fortune is plenty complicated too. Is it an actual melding of all space-time where all possibilities lie or an expansion of the mind resulting in mathematically precise calculation of probability. Brandon says it's the former but for specific functions or reactions he uses the latter to explain what happened Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted October 18, 2019 Report Share Posted October 18, 2019 9 hours ago, Calderis said: First, for healing mechanics if Identity were the issue then the state you were in when you stored should effect its output. No need to worry about any Cognitive issues preventing a healing as long as that gold mind is from before the injury... And then by extension you have to ask if someone is healed while dumping Identity in aluminum... Does the healing fail or is that another way to ignore the limitations to healing? I just don't think Identity matters in this regard. Actually goldmind could store "closeness to your identity/perceived self" without it storing "closeness to THIS identity/perceived self", the perceived self you get closer to would in that case be chosen at the moment you tap in it. Your second point hold tho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanLemon Posted October 23, 2019 Report Share Posted October 23, 2019 On 10/18/2019 at 2:03 AM, Honorless said: Oh Fortune is plenty complicated too. Is it an actual melding of all space-time where all possibilities lie or an expansion of the mind resulting in mathematically precise calculation of probability. Brandon says it's the former but for specific functions or reactions he uses the latter to explain what happened I think that the latter is a simpler way to explain it but I doubt that it's the case. The reason is because of Taravangian. He is an example of someone who has had an expansion of the mind when he made the diagram but Odium was surprised he could make something as complex as the diagram without Fortune. I personally think that Fortune is a trait that let's your mind navigate the connections in the SR like what happened to Kelsier. He got a glimpse into the SR and came up with a plan even though he wasn't aware of the specifics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanLemon Posted October 23, 2019 Report Share Posted October 23, 2019 As far as aluminum goes though, I think it's something along the lines of mercury. A material that has just the right composition to let it be something special but still natural Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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