+Oltux72 Posted October 11, 2019 Report Share Posted October 11, 2019 I think we should explore this also, because it poses even more unique challenges than the economy. First of all, will there be crime? Yes, we'd kidding ourselves if we assumed otherwise. They may be demigods, but they are not saints. Nor do they grow up without scarcity. Sure, no sane person would break into a house to steal food or money, but there is still conflict. And not everybody in Elantris can be an Elantrian. At a minimum there must be children. (Or parents - a fascinating topic of its own) unique objects, like original paintings can still be stolen personal dislikes sex crimes But will there be a police force? This is not obvious. Ancient Rome had none. They had a force of watchmen against fire and stuff, but no police force. Actually I doubt that there is a genuine police force, as there is a core issue for law enforcement among Elantrians. How do you arrest an Elantrian? Short of personal supervision 24/7 this looks pretty much impossible to me. A court system, however, looks totally doable by aonic means. They even have one that makes the guilty feel pain. But then comes the core issue. What do you do after that? How do you jail an Elantrian? What else would you do? Fine them - that works, but is probably inadequate for more serious stuff. And what if they have no money? You can go to systems like public shunning. But at some point, what if they just don't give a rust? The Shaod can take anybody, hence you will get some pretty hardened criminals eventually. You could execute them. But that is a bit excessive. Now that leads me to an ugly conclusion: corporal punishment. There is a whipping post somewhere in Elantris. Yes, I know, but what is the alternative? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted October 21, 2019 Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 (edited) On 10/11/2019 at 8:50 AM, Oltux72 said: I think we should explore this also, because it poses even more unique challenges than the economy. First of all, will there be crime? Yes, we'd kidding ourselves if we assumed otherwise. They may be demigods, but they are not saints. Nor do they grow up without scarcity. Sure, no sane person would break into a house to steal food or money, but there is still conflict. And not everybody in Elantris can be an Elantrian. At a minimum there must be children. (Or parents - a fascinating topic of its own) unique objects, like original paintings can still be stolen personal dislikes sex crimes But will there be a police force? This is not obvious. Ancient Rome had none. They had a force of watchmen against fire and stuff, but no police force. Actually I doubt that there is a genuine police force, as there is a core issue for law enforcement among Elantrians. How do you arrest an Elantrian? Short of personal supervision 24/7 this looks pretty much impossible to me. A court system, however, looks totally doable by aonic means. They even have one that makes the guilty feel pain. But then comes the core issue. What do you do after that? How do you jail an Elantrian? What else would you do? Fine them - that works, but is probably inadequate for more serious stuff. And what if they have no money? You can go to systems like public shunning. But at some point, what if they just don't give a rust? The Shaod can take anybody, hence you will get some pretty hardened criminals eventually. You could execute them. But that is a bit excessive. Now that leads me to an ugly conclusion: corporal punishment. There is a whipping post somewhere in Elantris. Yes, I know, but what is the alternative? I think you might be right. There was no mention of a police force existing or having existed. Elantrians seem to have been the absolute monarchs in Arelon, as seen by the near-total collapse of their kingdom post-Reod. No judiciary court system or indeed nobility existed prior to the Reod. All judgements were brought up to the Elantrians. But it does somehow seem that the Elantrians were more benevolent than not, with merchants and with the Shu Korath faith, though those were probably politically motivated. The benevolence could be an effect of Devotion having implemented some method for the Shaod. Though the Ire seem counter to this example, as do multiple mentions of the Shaod being random. I don't think the Elantrians would agree to a whipping post being put up in their city. Too much humiliation involved, not only is that painful, it's also not politically advisable as it runs counter to projecting their power, 'godhood' and aura of benevolence. Edited October 21, 2019 by Honorless 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted October 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 14 minutes ago, Honorless said: I think you might be right. There was no mention of a police force existing or having existed. There was a highway police outside Elantris. I think tjis pattern will hold. 14 minutes ago, Honorless said: Elantrians seem to have been the absolute monarchs in Arelon, as seen by the near-total collapse of their kingdom post-Reod. But not inside. I think Elantris have an internal and external system totally decoupled. And probably two justice systems inside Elantris. The idea of equality before the law is just anachronistic. 14 minutes ago, Honorless said: But it does somehow seem that the Elantrians were more benevolent than not, with merchants and with the Shu Korath faith, though those were probably politically motivated. Not really, at least not fully. A life of crime just makes less sense in Elantris. The wealth of an Elantrian is to a large extent in his social capital and the Aons he knows. You cannot steal that. Also the output of an Aon depends, all things being equal, on its size. That is easy to change. Giving away a lot of the same stuff is cheap. Yet even if their external benevolence extends to inside Elantris, there will still be conflict. Things like murdering your neighbor because he has an affair with your wife will happen and Elantris needs to deal with it. 14 minutes ago, Honorless said: The benevolence could be an effect of Devotion having implemented some method for the Shaod. Though the Ire seem counter to this example, as do multiple mentions of the system being random. I don't think the Elantrians would agree to a whipping post being put up in their city. Too much humiliation involved, not only is that painful, it's also not politically advisable as it runs counter to projecting their power, 'godhood' and aura of benevolence. That is basically the point. Humiliation is the intended goal. How else do you punish an Elantrian? You cannot use the death penalty for lesser crime, like, if we stay in the example, a man just beating up his neighbor. You could declare them outlaw. That is a pretty bad idea. A band of outlaw Elantrians roaming Arelon is a nightmare. What else is there? You may note that in countries on Earth things like fines and community service is used. That falls short. For fines you need to have money. For community service and even jail terms, you need to be able to keep people imprisoned. Long term imprisonment is impractical for Elantrians. So what do you do? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted October 21, 2019 Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: There was a highway police outside Elantris. I think tjis pattern will hold. But not inside. I think Elantris have an internal and external system totally decoupled. And probably two justice systems inside Elantris. The idea of equality before the law is just anachronistic. Not really, at least not fully. A life of crime just makes less sense in Elantris. The wealth of an Elantrian is to a large extent in his social capital and the Aons he knows. You cannot steal that. Also the output of an Aon depends, all things being equal, on its size. That is easy to change. Giving away a lot of the same stuff is cheap. Yet even if their external benevolence extends to inside Elantris, there will still be conflict. Things like murdering your neighbor because he has an affair with your wife will happen and Elantris needs to deal with it. That is basically the point. Humiliation is the intended goal. How else do you punish an Elantrian? You cannot use the death penalty for lesser crime, like, if we stay in the example, a man just beating up his neighbor. You could declare them outlaw. That is a pretty bad idea. A band of outlaw Elantrians roaming Arelon is a nightmare. What else is there? You may note that in countries on Earth things like fines and community service is used. That falls short. For fines you need to have money. For community service and even jail terms, you need to be able to keep people imprisoned. Long term imprisonment is impractical for Elantrians. So what do you do? Those were just the guards established by Iadon, after the Reod, to contain those taken by the Shaod. True, they would still need an internal system of justice. The novel is set post-Reod though, so unless book 2 delves into this deeper, anything would just be speculation. Wait a minute... That's it! Banishment is the perfect punishment. Remember that Elantrians are boosted by the city of Elantris. The further away from that they are, the weaker they'd get. Banishing an Elantrian from Arelon could work as long as the accused doesn't have too much support from the other Elantrians, I think. Edited October 21, 2019 by Honorless 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted October 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 57 minutes ago, Honorless said: Those were just the guards established by Iadon, after the Reod, to contain those taken by the Shaod. They were also policing the highways. 57 minutes ago, Honorless said: True, they would still need an internal system of justice. The novel is set post-Reod though, so unless book 2 delves into this deeper, anything would just be speculation. Wait a minute... That's it! Banishment is the perfect punishment. Remember that Elantrians are boosted by the city of Elantris. The further away from that they are, the weaker they'd get. Banishing an Elantrian from Arelon could work as long as the accused doesn't have too much support from the other Elantrians, I think. So, you send them where exactly? If it is close, they still are very powerful. If you send them far enough, they will end up in Derethi lands. Do you really want to send people who know a lot into an enemy empire? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Harrycrapper Posted October 21, 2019 Report Share Posted October 21, 2019 If Dilaf had a way of disrupting Raoden from channeling the Dor for his illusion, I'd bet there's a way to make a permanent Aon to disrupt any usage of the Dor in a specific area, like a jail cell. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted October 22, 2019 Report Share Posted October 22, 2019 4 hours ago, Oltux72 said: They were also policing the highways. So, you send them where exactly? If it is close, they still are very powerful. If you send them far enough, they will end up in Derethi lands. Do you really want to send people who know a lot into an enemy empire? Not pointing out their function, only date of establishment, which I hope I'm remembering correctly but it's been a while since I last read Elantris Maybe jail them within Arelon, but far away from the city of Elantris itself? There has to be some way 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted October 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2019 14 hours ago, Harrycrapper said: If Dilaf had a way of disrupting Raoden from channeling the Dor for his illusion, I'd bet there's a way to make a permanent Aon to disrupt any usage of the Dor in a specific area, like a jail cell. If there is, it isn't mentioned. And research into this would have been dangerous. You'd develop a weapon specifically against yourself for the enemy. 10 hours ago, Honorless said: Not pointing out their function, only date of establishment, which I hope I'm remembering correctly but it's been a while since I last read Elantris He kept his position as a functionary of Elantris. 10 hours ago, Honorless said: Maybe jail them within Arelon, but far away from the city of Elantris itself? There has to be some way They can use Aon Daa even in Teod and they can teleport, albeit not very well. Making a prison that can hold them for long does not look practical in Arelon. And why does there have to be a way? Because you do not like the consequences? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted October 22, 2019 Report Share Posted October 22, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Oltux72 said: He kept his position as a functionary of Elantris. They can use Aon Daa even in Teod and they can teleport, albeit not very well. Making a prison that can hold them for long does not look practical in Arelon. And why does there have to be a way? Because you do not like the consequences? Who's the "he" here? Who kept his position as a functionary? I was talking about the guards, who were put there by King Iadon to make sure the new Elantrians didn't escape, iirc Raoden teleported from Elantris, we don't know whether he got back the same way. Those were multiple Aon Daa, fired simultaneously. Plus, imprisonment should still be possible, don't forget 'Emperor's Soul', a prison for Elantrians could be made from 'Ralkalest'. Of course I don't like the implications, how would a society like that function? You yourself raised this point. Even if things were like that before, with Raoden and Sarene, and all the previous Elantrians dead or off-world, things are bound to change in the coming sequels. Edited October 22, 2019 by Honorless 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted October 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2019 38 minutes ago, Honorless said: Who's the "he" here? Who kept his position as a functionary? I was talking about the guards, who were put there by King Iadon to make sure the new Elantrians didn't escape, iirc Eondel 38 minutes ago, Honorless said: Raoden teleported from Elantris, we don't know whether he got back the same way. Those were multiple Aon Daa, fired simultaneously. They got back sooner than a transfer by ship would explain. 38 minutes ago, Honorless said: Plus, imprisonment should still be possible, don't forget 'Emperor's Soul', a prison for Elantrians could be made from 'Ralkalest'. All indications are that it is unknown on Opelon. You would really make armor out of it, if it helped against Elantrians. And you could still melt it. 38 minutes ago, Honorless said: Of course I don't like the implications, how would a society like that function? You yourself raised this point. Differently from ours. (Roshar) Spoiler Other worlds have a similar problem. Shardbearers are to an extent above the law. 38 minutes ago, Honorless said: Even if things were like that before, with Raoden and Sarene, and all the previous Elantrians dead or off-world, things are bound to change in the coming sequels. Yes, but the underlying causes will not change. Hence I proposed an alternative to prison: corporal punishment 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted October 22, 2019 Report Share Posted October 22, 2019 (edited) On 10/22/2019 at 7:12 PM, Oltux72 said: Eondel They got back sooner than a transfer by ship would explain. All indications are that it is unknown on Opelon. You would really make armor out of it, if it helped against Elantrians. And you could still melt it. Differently from ours. (Roshar) Other worlds have a similar problem. Shardbearers are to an extent above the law. Yes, but the underlying causes will not change. Hence I proposed an alternative to prison: corporal punishment RIP Eondel, Karata, Hrathen We get an indication of how much time passed? Doesn't the scene cut straight to the funerals of Hrathen & co.? I'm pretty sure that it would've been more or less the same case as with Shardbearers in Roshar. The law would side with them, since it was made by them. As for now, maybe an Aon does exist to facilitate imprisonment of an Elantrian? Aluminum's negative interaction with Investiture is a Cosmere constant, I think. Of course this is assuming that 'Ralkalest' does refer to aluminium. Elantrians shouldn't be able to change it in any manner, now all that is needed is a teleportation jammer against Aon Tia. The political implications of a corporal form of punishment still remains though. Elantrians might be less god-like beings in the eyes of the Arelish now after the Reod but they are still rulers. Especially after the Reod and the Invasion, they're gonna need a united political front and retain public approval. Raoden's gonna have to find a more effective means of punishment than that, imo. Edited October 25, 2019 by Honorless 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Harrycrapper Posted October 22, 2019 Report Share Posted October 22, 2019 5 hours ago, Oltux72 said: If there is, it isn't mentioned. And research into this would have been dangerous. You'd develop a weapon specifically against yourself for the enemy. He kept his position as a functionary of Elantris. They can use Aon Daa even in Teod and they can teleport, albeit not very well. Making a prison that can hold them for long does not look practical in Arelon. And why does there have to be a way? Because you do not like the consequences? All swords cut both ways. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted October 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Harrycrapper said: All swords cut both ways. Right. But if you are a mosquito fighting a bird, you should not develop DDT. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallyrocket Posted October 23, 2019 Report Share Posted October 23, 2019 I bet if you lock some aluminum gauntlets/gloves on an Elantrian's hands, you'd pretty effectifly cut them off from accessing the Dor. This in and of itself could be a punishment, but combining this with other punishments could help with varrying degrees of crimes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dancer Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 On 10/23/2019 at 4:08 PM, wallyrocket said: I bet if you lock some aluminum gauntlets/gloves on an Elantrian's hands, you'd pretty effectifly cut them off from accessing the Dor. This in and of itself could be a punishment, but combining this with other punishments could help with varrying degrees of crimes. Couldn't they still just draw the Aon's with their feet, or craft Aon's out of wood or dust and make it work that way? Seriously what is up with Sel! It is practically impossible to imprison it's magic users. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted October 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 1 hour ago, Dancer said: Couldn't they still just draw the Aon's with their feet, or craft Aon's out of wood or dust and make it work that way? Aons per urination in the sand? Apparently Aons need some depth, so you cannot just write them. But there is just too much opportunity to make them. 1 hour ago, Dancer said: Seriously what is up with Sel! It is practically impossible to imprison it's magic users. They have no explicit external fuel. (Scadrial) Spoiler When Vin was to be imprisoned this was possible by cutting her off from metals. Also they have Leechers. (Roshar) Spoiler How would you imprison a Fused or the bearer of Yelig-Nar? The other magic systems are not different in their powers but in their source of fuel. It is impossible to imprison somebody with a full set of magic powers. It is strictly speaking not true that other magic systems of the Cosmere allows this. The difference is that they open up a way to turn a mage into a muggle at least temporarily, usually just by taking away the fuel. Anywhere where that possibility does not exist the problem arises. That is why we have a similar thread pertaining to Threnody. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
first void Posted July 13, 2020 Report Share Posted July 13, 2020 I can see several ways to punish. But all i come up with would be very extreme and might not work. Aluminum padded room. Solitary confinement style. Something like a sensory deprivation chamber illusion prison or punishment. If real enough, placebo happens, perhaps even on spiritual level. if not good enough, they can still experience horrors. An aon that produces some sort of embarrassing transformation Sonic weaponry/ torture boiling until lightly done, not dead lose some fingers/appendage privileges for a while loss of whatever passes for rank re-education program stretching rack investiture drain aon? bad hairdo. That's all i got for now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted July 13, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2020 5 hours ago, first void said: I can see several ways to punish. But all i come up with would be very extreme and might not work. Aluminum padded room. Solitary confinement style. Melt your way free. Unless you can build an equivalent of a Faraday cage with respect to the Dor. 5 hours ago, first void said: Something like a sensory deprivation chamber Aon Tia 5 hours ago, first void said: illusion prison or punishment. If real enough, placebo happens, perhaps even on spiritual level. if not good enough, they can still experience horrors. Aon Tia 5 hours ago, first void said: An aon that produces some sort of embarrassing transformation Sonic weaponry/ torture boiling until lightly done, not dead lose some fingers/appendage privileges for a while How do you make them undergo this while they can teleport? 5 hours ago, first void said: loss of whatever passes for rank That of course works only for those who care. 5 hours ago, first void said: re-education program stretching rack investiture drain aon? Do you really want this to be known to the criminals among you? 5 hours ago, first void said: bad hairdo. That's all i got for now. They all presuppose imprisonment. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
first void Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 I never said i found a way to imprison. Although some sort of full body bind thing might work, if they can be subdued or knocked out. Never claimed to have found a way to hold them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koloss17 Posted July 30, 2020 Report Share Posted July 30, 2020 (edited) I’d go with less public torture of a sort. I also think that it would be very silly to lose your finger privileges for a while. I got an idea: you have incredibles style holding places with aluminum clamped on their hands and feet. You then will give them hell for a bit (that’s a fine word to use here right?) by doing some aon hurties. This would continue for varying days, depending on the sentence. It would be a bit brutal, but would definitely lower crime. You would probably need a mixture of aluminum and a stronger metal since aluminum is a tad weak. Edited July 30, 2020 by Koloss17 Grammar and spellage 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted August 1, 2020 Report Share Posted August 1, 2020 I mean, you could just punish serious crimes with death. Alternatively, if you wanted to stop them from Aon Tia'ing their way to freedom, some sort of disorienting Aon along with a blindfold should keep them from knowing the exact directions they would need to teleport away safely. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
first void Posted September 27, 2020 Report Share Posted September 27, 2020 Assuming they can be subdued, any almost-death crimes could be solved by banishment,with harsher banishment being farther from Elantris. This would lower their power and capacity for trouble. Any prison not having 24/7 full body confinement would need to be outside the city a fair way. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted September 28, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2020 11 hours ago, first void said: Assuming they can be subdued, any almost-death crimes could be solved by banishment,with harsher banishment being farther from Elantris. This would lower their power and capacity for trouble. Any prison not having 24/7 full body confinement would need to be outside the city a fair way. You would guarantee that Elantrians fall into enemy hands or, worse, willingly join your enemies. Who would huard them there? If you don't guard them, how do you keep them there? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
first void Posted September 28, 2020 Report Share Posted September 28, 2020 They would be guarded, i was only saying any easy confinement would have to deprive them of their capabilities in some way. Distance seemed easiest. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspiring Writer Posted October 2, 2020 Report Share Posted October 2, 2020 I think that either the Shaod picked people who were more benevolent on purpose so it wasn't necessary, or there were corrupt Elantrians. You act as if they would no matter what have laws against them when they were preserved as gods. I can imagine there being some corrupt Elantrians that might explain why certain people hated them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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