What is a country and a people?

[+Oltux72]

On Sel answers to that question are subject to experimental verification.  The landscape does not answer the question how an Aon should look like fully. In particular, how far should it extend? Why is the Duladen Republic not a part of it? The defintion is not legal. Teod people can become Elantrians. It is also not linguistic. Nobody from Jin Do, even those who speak the language perfectly, becomes an Elantrian. The Dor also does not believe in birthright citizenship. Even if your family settled in Arelon a century ago, you count as Jin Do. Shuden can do ChayShan.

It looks like to the Dor ethnicity is by descent. So what is the end goal of teh Fjordell Empire? Is it political only? Or do they want to develop ScylaDor? SelDor?

[Pathfinder]

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

On Sel answers to that question are subject to experimental verification.  The landscape does not answer the question how an Aon should look like fully. In particular, how far should it extend? Why is the Duladen Republic not a part of it? The defintion is not legal. Teod people can become Elantrians. It is also not linguistic. Nobody from Jin Do, even those who speak the language perfectly, becomes an Elantrian. The Dor also does not believe in birthright citizenship. Even if your family settled in Arelon a century ago, you count as Jin Do. Shuden can do ChayShan.

It looks like to the Dor ethnicity is by descent. So what is the end goal of teh Fjordell Empire? Is it political only? Or do they want to develop ScylaDor? SelDor?

Perhaps part of it is seeing yourself as part of a people. The Duladel Republic sees itself as separate. Shuden still sees himself as Jin Do. People still treat him as Jin do. I have come across some WoB that may also illuminate:

 

Brandon Sanderson

Aons are an interesting part of this book–perhaps my favorite of the world elements. If you think about the system I've set up, you'll realize some things. First, the Aons have to be older than the Aonic language. They're based directly off of the land. So, the lines that make up the characters aren't arbitrary. Perhaps the sounds associated with them are, but the meanings–at least in part–are inherent. The scene with Raoden explaining how the Aon for "Wood" includes circles matching the forests in the land of Arelon indicates that there is a relationship between the Aons and their meanings. In addition, each Aon produces a magical effect, which would have influenced its meaning.

The second interesting fact about the Aons is that only Elantrians can draw them. And Elantrians have to come from the lands near Arelon. Teoish people can be taken, but only if they're in Arelon at the time. Genetically, then, the Teos and the Arelenes must be linked–and evidence seems to indicate that the Arelenes lived in the land first, and the Teos crossed the sea to colonize their peninsula.

Only Elantrians can draw Aons in the air, so someone taken by the Shaod must have developed the writing system. That is part of what makes writing a noble art in Arelon–drawing the Aons would have been associated with Elantrians. Most likely, the early Elantrians (who probably didn't even have Elantris back then) would have had to learn the Aons by trial and error, finding what each one did, and associating its meaning and sound with its effect. The language didn't develop, but was instead "discovered."

There are likely Aons that haven't even been found yet.

Elantris Annotations (Feb. 14, 2006)

 

 

Questioner

In Elantris, you have this array of people who are essentially gods, immortal, but they appear with absurdly high frequency. How come they basically don't take over the planet?

Brandon Sanderson

...There are a couple reasons for this. One is that magic on Sel is very strongly tied to location, and was even back when the Elantrians were at the height of their power. So, this is a big part of it, location-based magic. Meaning, the further you get from Elantris, the less powerful your magic was, and the Elantrians really didn't like going places where they were not super-powerful. And so this is certainly part of it, and I explored this idea in Warbreaker, where the people who happen to be gods are really aggressive and kind of slowly conquering outward and things like that. It felt right for me in Elantris to be doing it that way.

Questioner

Why can't they just increase their numbers. Because their numbers increase over time?

Brandon Sanderson

...The number of Elantrians had certain thresholds and upper limits, that I haven't described in the books yet.

Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017)

[+Oltux72]

17 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Perhaps part of it is seeing yourself as part of a people. The Duladel Republic sees itself as separate. Shuden still sees himself as Jin Do. People still treat him as Jin do. I have come across some WoB that may also illuminate:

The Shaod takes Dulas in the north of their native country.

[Pathfinder]

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The Shaod takes Dulas in the north of their native country.

And those Dulas could consider themselves part of the country where Elantris is, over Duladel

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

And those Dulas could consider themselves part of the country where Elantris is, over Duladel

Then why has no Fjordell immigrant ever been taken? Surely some of them considered themselves Elantrian.

[Pathfinder]

12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Then why has no Fjordell immigrant ever been taken? Surely some of them considered themselves Elantrian.

Not first generation that still speak the language of the land they were born in. Maybe not even the second generation that grew up bilingual with the culture of their parents to speak to them, while being able to speak to the locals. Maybe the third or fourth generation, that speak the language fluently, and grew up in the culture they live in. My ancestry may be Italian and Irish, but when someone asks what country I am from, I say America. When my great grandfather came to america, he spoke Italian, felt Italian, and was viewed as Italian. When my grandfather grew up in America, he was seen as Italian and heard quite a few slurs regarding his ethnicity. He could speak both languages. When my mother grew up, she spoke english without an accent and thought of her ancestry as italian and irish, but she didn't know Italy. she had never been. How can she hold an identity with a place and people she never experienced? 

[Wander89]

Thought this was going to be a Thor quote:
"Elantris is not a place, never was. This could be Elantris. Elantris is where our people stand"

and

"Elantris is not a place, it's a people."

Edited October 12, 2019 by Wander89

[Honorless]

Then the nation of Teod raises some questions. Why don't they have their own manifestation of Investiture? They were distinct from the Arelish for a long time. Why doesn't Duladel?

 

Also, what's west of Arelon?

Edited December 3, 2019 by Honorless
typo

[Karger]

5 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Then the nation of Teod raises some questions. Why don't they have their owln manifestation of Investiture? They were distinct from the Arelish for a long time. Why doesn't Duladel?

 

Perhaps their differences were linguistic or political rather then cultural?

[Honorless]

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Perhaps their differences were linguistic or political rather then cultural?

They are ethnically and culturally distinct. Both Teod and Arelon house a majority of Shu Korath populace however in the case of the Dula, they were also religiously distinct from the Arelish and did not use Aons in their names.

[Karger]

4 minutes ago, Honorless said:

They are ethnically and culturally distinct. Both Teod and Arelon house a majority of Shu Korath populace however in the case of the Dula, they were also religiously distinct from the Arelish and did not use Aons in their names.

Could it be something deeper?  France and England are different in all of those ways but at the same time they had similar governments, histories, beliefs, and languages... 

[Weltall]

2 hours ago, Honorless said:

Then the nation of Teod raises some questions. Why don't they have their owln manifestation of Investiture? They were distinct from the Arelish for a long time. Why doesn't Duladel?

The Dula probably had their own manifestation, it just appeared differently. Jesker was aware of the Dor and its practice attempted to understand it so it's possible there was an associated magic system to go along with it. We know that it's something Brandon plans to explore in the Elantris sequels and that it retains (or retained) information that newer religions did not.

[Karger]

5 minutes ago, Ookla the Nameless said:

The Dula probably had their own manifestation, it just appeared differently

If it was linked to the mysteries that could explain it.  Dula actively suppressed their own system unknowingly.

[Honorless]

6 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

If it was linked to the mysteries that could explain it.  Dula actively suppressed their own system unknowingly.

What do you mean? Jesker and Jeskeri Mysteries were completely different faiths

[Karger]

20 minutes ago, Honorless said:

What do you mean? Jesker and Jeskeri Mysteries were completely different faiths

Yes.  However I believe they both originated or were both at least practiced in the same region. 

[Honorless]

8 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Yes.  However I believe they both originated or were both at least practiced in the same region. 

 Jesker was still practiced till the unrest that Hrathen organized.

The Dula probably did try to stamp out the Jeskeri Mysteries and it did outlive its parent religion

Edit: What of the Mulla'dil or Strikers? Are the Teullu martial arts also a manifestation of Investiture? After all ChayShan is an example that it is possible. The Grands might be drawing on Investiture of some form for their long lifespan

There should be more to Seon bonds. Would a Skaze even agree to a bond, they are literally Splinters of Dominion? Could these bonds be connected to the manifestation of Investiture in some of these seemingly sterile nations of Sel like Teod?

Edited December 3, 2019 by Honorless

[+Oltux72]

7 hours ago, Honorless said:

 Jesker was still practiced till the unrest that Hrathen organized.

The Dula probably did try to stamp out the Jeskeri Mysteries and it did outlive its parent religion

It would be a nice twist if the mysteries were the original old religion with a magic background and the official Jesker some new, sanitized philosophy.

[Honorless]

1 minute ago, Oltux72 said:

It would be a nice twist if the mysteries were the original old religion with a magic background and the official Jesker some new, sanitized philosophy.

Possible, but unlikely. The Jesker faith was stated to be older and had Realmatic knowledge, they knew of the Dor.

Jeskeri Mysteries spread out a lot, so maybe there was a reason for its rapid spread, but that too becomes a possible hurdle against it as Selish magics are region locked, getting weaker the further away from the homeland they get. But it's not impossible and would be an interesting card to play.

[Agent34]

8 hours ago, Honorless said:

There should be more to Seon bonds. Would a Skaze even agree to a bond, they are literally Splinters of Dominion? Could these bonds be connected to the manifestation of Investiture in some of these seemingly sterile nations of Sel like Teod?

IIRC the skaze in the epilogue says they're dependent on humans and hate it so I assume they also bond with people.

[Karger]

15 hours ago, Agent34 said:

IIRC the skaze in the epilogue says they're dependent on humans and hate it so I assume they also bond with people.

They are also aligned with dominion who would not necessarily object to ownership or providing a service if it meant personal benefits. 

[Pathfinder]

I think it is possible for Teod and Duladel to have magic systems of their own, just we have not seen it on screen and or it is not as flashy as Aon's and Dakhor. For instance a cursory read of Elantris would have you miss the potion mixing being its own magic system. WoB confirmed it is in fact its own magic system using certain ingredients, and the "aon" in this case would be how the potion maker stirred the potion. So I would readily believe there could be a more "minor" manifestation of magic in those two locations that either did not seem of note enough to bring up, or we just have not seen yet. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

You have to wonder how it would effect a nation without a land or a scattered one, like the Jewish people or the Roma. When you have generations of people who have never seen their land, how does the Dor work? What about a people that never had one?

The Torah was a much stronger focus than Israel for much of the past 2000 years; would that mean conversion would allow someone to use the Dor if the Jewish nation existed on Sel?

What about someone who joins the Roma? To my knowledge they don’t even have a land; they’re nomadic. How would the Dor effect them?

[+Oltux72]

5 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

You have to wonder how it would effect a nation without a land or a scattered one, like the Jewish people or the Roma. When you have generations of people who have never seen their land, how does the Dor work? What about a people that never had one?

ChayShan works for people born and raised abroad. However, you need to have a land of origin. I am afraid minority nationalities would be without access to the Dor.

5 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

What about someone who joins the Roma? To my knowledge they don’t even have a land; they’re nomadic. How would the Dor effect them?

Nomads can just as well have a land. In fact that is the usual case. They just don't use houses. I can see no reason that would preclude access to the Dor. But it very much looks like there is a strict one to one correspondence between area and system of access. That just does not work for ethnic minorities.

[Kingsdaughter613]

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

ChayShan works for people born and raised abroad. However, you need to have a land of origin. I am afraid minority nationalities would be without access to the Dor.

Nomads can just as well have a land. In fact that is the usual case. They just don't use houses. I can see no reason that would preclude access to the Dor. But it very much looks like there is a strict one to one correspondence between area and system of access. That just does not work for ethnic minorities.

I would think it should though.

It seems like for the Jewish nation it would work because we do have a homeland that we retained a connection to. But would it work for converts?

It feels like nomadic nations should have a means of accessing the Dor, but it might manifest differently than for those who have an actual land.

[+Oltux72]

4 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I would think it should though.

Why?

4 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

It seems like for the Jewish nation it would work because we do have a homeland that we retained a connection to. But would it work for converts?

We have all indications that the Connection one has to a land is unalterable by conscious decision. So no converts.

That touches upon a core question. Is the Connection between a people and a land exclusive? Teod and Arelon have diverged and the Teod isles are not part of Aons. I would say that a connection to a distant homeland stays valid until that homeland is occupied anew by a different people.

4 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

It feels like nomadic nations should have a means of accessing the Dor, but it might manifest differently than for those who have an actual land.

How? The other methods little to nothing in common.