Ixthos

Kaladin is going to be bonded by Yixli

18 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Kaladin is going to be bonded by Yixli, the voidspren that he met while travelling with the Parshmen. I have been convinced of this since I first read the scene where he meets her, and I am going to justify why I think this is going to happen, and the possible implications it will have on the story:

 

  • She is described as similar to Syl, a young spren woman, with key differences highlighted - her colour, moving by pulling the ground up to her rather than flying, etc. - she is the opposite of Syl in an obvious way
  • She spoke highly of him to the Fused before he was found out - her bitterness, along with her interest in him, might make her inclined to try and bring him to heel as punishment for her punishment. So we have both interest expressed in him, praise given about him to her masters, and then punishment for being deceived - thus she would have a reason to have Kaladin on her mind
  • Kaladin is both Honourable and Passionate - I think his passion is what would entice Yixli, especially if she bonds him on orders from Odium to try and turn one of Dalinar's most honourable knights to Odium, showing the difference between the two, but also allowing for the similarities - and the possibility Kaladin can find a way to combine the two and so show the good of passion as well as remaining Honourable
  • SYL initiated the bond with Kaladin, he didn't have a say in the matter, only in progressing the bond. Therefore it seems the Spren have the ability to start the bond, and so if Yixli wanted to bond Kaladin, or was ordered to do so due to Kaladin's passion, she could do so without Kaladin's input.
  • There is no indication that only one spren can bond someone at a time, that bonding a spren prevents others from doing likewise - the only similarity was the Midnight Mother trying to replace Pattern in Shallan, but that could be a case of trying to form a bond and then break the other due to the Midnight Mother's strength - her bond being so powerful it would prevent lower level spren from maintaining the bond, like a thick rope needed at the binding point and preventing thinner ones from being attached - as well as her being similar to a Cryptic, trying to bond to the same point in Shallan Pattern is bonded to, and so another type of spren, or a weaker one, would bond to a different part of the soul. Other magic systems have shown that multiple magic-granting bonds can be maintained at the same time, even of the same type (Warbreaker, Mistborn, Sixth of the Dusk, etc.)
    • [Edit] Also, there is no indication that she needed to remove Pattern, only that she was trying to
  • Syl is jealous of other spren expressing interest in Kaladin, and even batted away gloryspren which flew too close - this scene is right after he escapes from the group where he met Yixli, foreshadowing both Syl's jealousy as well as linking it to Yixli - and if Syl was battering away lesser spren, how would she feel about a voidspren
  • It will allow for voidbinding to be explored - see here for more musings - as well as noted above the positive aspects of passion, once the negative are faced, as well as having a voidspren on hand to act as a 

 

So, what do you think? Do you think this is likely, or unlikely, or impossible? If she does bond him, what do you think will be the dynamic between them, and between her and Syl? Thanks!

 

[Edit] Also, Yixli is similar in sound to "Yi - xS - Ly", or in other words Y-S-L ---> S-Y-L, so Syl. She is Syl's foil, and so having her interact with Syl, and competing for Kaladin, would make sense. :-)

Edited by Ixthos
Realised something to add
10

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It depends on how it would be handled I guess if this were to come to pass. 

I agree with many of your points that it COULD become a plot thread in the future books, but I do have to say that if Kaladin abandoned Syl for Yixli it would break my heart and in some ways ruin the book or books for me. 

If OTOH Kaladin were to somehow bond both... that could be very interesting. The interplay of Syl and Yixli, essentially an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other. Though because it is such a common theme, I feel that Sanderson will avoid it. 

He could use it as another instance of "humanizing" the enemy for us though. Like with Glys/Renarin and Venli, he keeps showing us that things are more grey than our heroes would like. That portion with Kaladin and the Parshmen was another instance of that theme and Yixli was already part of that. He could continue to dive into that with Kaladin and that might be an interesting way to see it. 

That said, I don't think Syl bonded Kaladin until he said the first ideal. She was drawn to him, attracted to him because of his Honor, but I've never heard that they were actually bonded before the First Ideal. Share a source on that if you have it for my own education :)

 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not so sure. There are a number of foreshadowing moments where there *is a darkness in Kaladin* but I think this is just a description of his depression.

The person definitely has a choice to bond a spren; Kaladin chooses to forgo his oaths and allows the death of Ehlokar, which causes his bond to break. This doesn't kill Syl, as I'm pretty sure that the bond isnt permanent until the 3rd ideal (as evidenced by Kaladin stating that he made a choice at a crossroads, choosing the path of a radiant).

Trying to bond seems like trying to get someone to date you; you can give them a bunch of gifts and be nice to them, but that doesn't mean you'll end up dating.

Last I think the higher voidspren generally refuse to bond with humans. Renarin seems to be a total oddity and not predictable by even Odium (who has decent future sight among the shards).

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think Syl would allow it I think she might even try to break the bond with Kal and I would hate that.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Green Hoodie Mistborn I don't think Kaladin would leave Syl, but rather that Yixli would insert herself into Kaladin (and as voidspren aren't - at least purely - of Honour, the bond would work differently, much like with Sadeas' men at the end of Oathbringer, without them having to swear any oaths, just having the right mindset), and with or without either him or Syl knowing, but both probably sensing something is off. And at a crucial time he would feel power from her, power at a moment of crisis that would help, and so,you noted, would result in the conflict between Honour and Passion, the two sitting on his shoulders - at least metaphorically - and trying to get him to embrace a different path, each with its own benefits and drawbacks. I think - even though it might seem a little cliche - that Mr. Sanderson would be able to make it work by putting a new spin on it - remember, Honour isn't necesserily good, nor Passion evil - and THAT is what would make it no-longer a cliche.

I don't think he would try to hurt Syl, or betray his Oaths, but Yixli might be able to encourage him to favour other approaches which don't violate his oaths but which nevertheless stray from Honour, his bond with Syl stalling while Yixli offers an easier path to the powers needed to protect. And in the end he finds a way to balance the two, and so progress with both. I haven't posted it yet, but one of the posts I'm hoping to make in my post on the six remaining shards in the Cosmere section is an explination of how Honour and Odium are compatible, as Honour is about what you think about / what is important to you in how you conduct yourself in a personal capacity, and Odium is about how you think, so Passionate Honour would be to make rash oaths, or to feel a strong emotional component to the oaths you make. As Kaladin progresses more as a Windrunner, I doubt he will lose his intense emotions, but I do think he will be able to channel them better.

 

On the issue of the bond not being made until the first ideal, I'll need to recheck, but didn't Kaladin survive being strung up before the highstorm before saying the first ideal? I think he might have displayed at least some inhaling of stormlight before that. I'll need to check. Either way, I think voidspren bond differently to Honour's spren - Honour is about holding to ideals, while the spren that took control of Sadeas men only needed a certain mindset - a Passionate mindset. Which character's on Dalinar's side would you say as more passionate than Kaladin? :-) I think the bond would be possible not by Kaladin swearing a Passionate ideal, but by being of a Passionate nature, just as being of an Honourable nature drew Syl but requires fulfilling Honour's requirement of Oaths to bond, something Odium doesn't need.

 

@Config2 I think a lot of what I said above also applies to this, but to continue that point, I don't think Passion is inherently evil, any more than someone who keeps their promises is necessarily good. Yixli might be there to tempt Kaladin if she does bond him, but I also think the reverse is also possible, the good of Passion could be expressed by Kaladin, the evil Odium intended, or Yixli intended, turned to redeem her instead, just as Syl is changed by her bond to Kaladin.

 

@Kalaksbreath I don't think Syl would be able to stop it, especially if Yixli bonds him in a part of his soul Syl can't touch. The mere fact she felt the need to push the gloryspren away from him seems to indicate she feels like other spren might be able to try and claim Kaladin if she isn't careful - and even if she is careful, can we be sure that she can prevent them if they do so in a way she has never seen?

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

I don't think Syl would be able to stop it, especially if Yixli bonds him in a part of his soul Syl can't touch. The mere fact she felt the need to push the gloryspren away from him seems to indicate she feels like other spren might be able to try and claim Kaladin if she isn't careful - and even if she is careful, can we be sure that she can prevent them if they do so in a way she has never seen?

I think Syl would be able to notice because Syl and Kaladin's souls have been intertwined with one another and I would imagine it would be hard for Syl not to notice Yixli approaching in shadesmar as well as making a bond with Kaladin.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Kalaksbreath said:

I think Syl would be able to notice because Syl and Kaladin's souls have been intertwined with one another and I would imagine it would be hard for Syl not to notice Yixli approaching in shadesmar as well as making a bond with Kaladin.

Let us assume they are completely intertwined - something which hasn't happened yet, as I think the bond deepens with each Oath, so only at the fifth ideal do they completely merge, or as close as they can. If that were the case I could believe Syl would be fully aware of Kaladin's connections and would be able to prevent a new one from forming. But two things: one, Syl and Kaladin aren't yet completely intertwined yet, and so there could be gaps present. Two, you yourself are fully aware of yourself, but mosquitoes can still bite you - Syl isn't fully in the cognitive realm any more - that "mass" was moved into the physical, and there isn't much indication she is as aware of the cognitive realm as she once was, and that is also assuming the cognitive realm is where the bond is initiated, where with Shallan and Pattern when they fought the Midnight Mother showed that - while they physically touched - the bond itself is spiritual, and doesn't seem to need physical contact in either the physical or cognitive realms. Still, even if it does require touching in the cognitive realm, do you think Syl would be able to sense Yixli? I can't recall, but didn't the scene with her and Yixli - while she was pretending to be a simple Windspren - involve her not being fully aware of if Yixli could see her and vice versa?

 

Basically, if Syl can't see into the cognitive realm - or exist there as she used to - and if the bond doesn't require physical or cognitive proximity, or if not proximity, then touching - and if you yourself can't keep mosquitoes off of you, it stands to reason that Syl wouldn't be able to prevent the voidspren from bonding Kaladin, especially if Syl and Kaladin aren't fully bonded yet, and Kaladin's passions are like exposing an arm for a mosquito to bite

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Ixthos said:

On the issue of the bond not being made until the first ideal, I'll need to recheck, but didn't Kaladin survive being strung up before the highstorm before saying the first ideal? I think he might have displayed at least some inhaling of stormlight before that. I'll need to check. Either way, I think voidspren bond differently to Honour's spren - Honour is about holding to ideals, while the spren that took control of Sadeas men only needed a certain mindset - a Passionate mindset. Which character's on Dalinar's side would you say as more passionate than Kaladin? :-) I think the bond would be possible not by Kaladin swearing a Passionate ideal, but by being of a Passionate nature, just as being of an Honourable nature drew Syl but requires fulfilling Honour's requirement of Oaths to bond, something Odium doesn't need.

The reason Sadeas's men were able to be bonded was they had been subject to the Thrill for a long time, causing intense emotion which lets someone become susceptible to shardic influence. We have WoB that Kaladin is resistant to the Thrill due to his bond with Syl. 

 

LadyKnightRadiant

Kaladin not ever feeling the Thrill. Is there a reason for that?

Brandon Sanderson

There is a reason for that... What do you think?

LadyKnightRadiant

I think it's because he's too good and too pure for this world.

Brandon Sanderson

That is, I would say-- Let's just say that there are points where Kaladin could have felt the Thrill. But once he had the attention of certain nebulous spren, somebody was watching out for him.

LadyKnightRadiant

That was gonna be my second. I thought "He's probably just too good for it," and then I was like, "It's probably Syl's fault."

Brandon Sanderson

There's a bit of a war inside of Kaladin.

Skyward Denver signing (Nov. 15, 2018) Edited by Pathfinder
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

 

Brandon Sanderson

There's a bit of a war inside of Kaladin.

Skyward Denver signing (Nov. 15, 2018)

I think this is the key point, and which supports my theory - the war in Kaladin between honour and passion. As to your statement, yes, I agree that Sadeas' men were susceptible to that particular type of bond because of the thrill, and also because of the type of people they were. This highlights my main point, and the reason I brought up that example: Odium spren bonds don't require oaths, only mindsets. I don't say that Yixli will bond Kaladin the same way the voidspren - possible but not confirmed to be lesser voidspren - bonded Sadeas' men, only that it is the nature of their bonds - passion facilitates voidspren bonds, rather than oaths, and as the quote you provided shows, Kaladin has an internal conflict, and one which - I think - might well be translated into a more literal one.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm going to have to go re-read that section. 

In my memory of that scene, Sadaes men were all bonded/infused at the same time by just Nergaoul, not by many lesser spren.

I also think that "bonded" is too strong a term for what was done with or to them. Invested, infused, overpowered is more what that seemed to be to me.

To the point above, if unconscious Syl can fend off the Thrill, don't you think conscious Syl would be able to fend off a lesser voidspren? 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

17 minutes ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

I'm going to have to go re-read that section. 

In my memory of that scene, Sadaes men were all bonded/infused at the same time by just Nergaoul, not by many lesser spren.

I also think that "bonded" is too strong a term for what was done with or to them. Invested, infused, overpowered is more what that seemed to be to me.

To the point above, if unconscious Syl can fend off the Thrill, don't you think conscious Syl would be able to fend off a lesser voidspren? 

I'll have to read it again to be sure as well, but as I recall one of the Fused said to Odium in shock that Odium must have found a way for spren to bond humans, and Odium replied that it was always possible for spren to bond humans - but I will need to recheck. Also, I think it showed spren leaping into them, but again, I think reading it again would clear that up.

 

Yixli isn't a lesser voidspren, and the Thrill wasn't directed at Kaladin. Likewise, it is mainly about what you are susceptible to - the thrill is one type of passion, but remember there are other types and other emotions inspired by the Unmade. Kaladin isn't a bloodthirsty person, and the Thrill is bloodthirst - his passions, and so the part of him susceptible to bonding, isn't in that direction, and likely is something Syl can't yet grasp, and so doesn't know how to defend Kaladin if it is attacked.

 

Mistborn Hero of Ages spoilers:

Spoiler

If Preservation - Vin - couldn't keep Ruin from influencing a hemalurgically spiked Kandra, despite trying, then theoretically the same vulnerability in Kaladin - the same connection to Odium with Kaladin's unique passions - would also be a point to attack.

 

[Edit] Okay, I found this part:

Quote

Ahead of them on the battlefield, the human ranks slumped, their banner wavering. A man in glittering Shardplate, sitting upon a white horse, led them.
Deep within his helm, something started glowing red.
The dark spren flew toward the men, finding welcoming bodies and willing flesh. The red mist made them lust, made their minds open. And the spren, then, bonded to the men, slipping into those open souls.
“Master, you have learned to inhabit humans?” Turash said to Subservience.
“Spren have always been able to bond with them, Turash,” Odium said. “It merely requires the right mindset and the right environment.”

- RIght near the end of Chapter 115 "The Wrong Passion."

 

So it looks like you are right about it being one spren, but it also confirms that spren can bond to people - bond - if their emotions line up.

 

[Edit 2] Actually ... just checking again, and it isn't clear if the dark spren is one spren or several - there seems to be only one spren singled out before, the Unmade, rather than the others. So it might be several spren.

Edited by Ixthos
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My main issue is that you keep going back to passion, odium is 100% confirmed to be "divine hatred," not "passion." It's been a bit since I read OB (about a quarter of the way through WoR atm) so I don't recall exactly what kind of Voidspren Yixli is, but i dont feel passion is what Odium would be attracted to. 

That being said, Kaladin has shown to have plenty of hatred for those that harm the ones he cares about, so he could still easily attract one from that alone. Hating those that do dishonorable things... maybe that could lead to him ascending to both shards eventually?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

something which hasn't happened yet, as I think the bond deepens with each Oath, so only at the fifth ideal do they completely merge, or as close as they can.

I agree that they won't be fully connected until the fifth ideal this is confirmed by the honor spren in shadesmar that being said I still think that Syl would be able to sense Yixli because of how the spren of Dalinar and of Renarin are able to sense the dead shard blades they had bonded the stormfather was able to break the bond between Dlainar and his dead blade (this may be because the stormfather is so strong) and I don't think that Syl would be strong enough to break the bond if it was already made between Yixli and Kaladin but I think she could prevent it from starting.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

17 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

I'll have to read it again to be sure as well, but as I recall one of the Fused said to Odium in shock that Odium must have found a way for spren to bond humans, and Odium replied that it was always possible for spren to bond humans - but I will need to recheck. Also, I think it showed spren leaping into them, but again, I think reading it again would clear that up.

 

Yixli isn't a lesser voidspren, and the Thrill wasn't directed at Kaladin. Likewise, it is mainly about what you are susceptible to - the thrill is one type of passion, but remember there are other types and other emotions inspired by the Unmade. Kaladin isn't a bloodthirsty person, and the Thrill is bloodthirst - his passions, and so the part of him susceptible to bonding, isn't in that direction, and likely is something Syl can't yet grasp, and so doesn't know how to defend Kaladin if it is attacked.

 

Mistborn Hero of Ages spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

If Preservation - Vin - couldn't keep Ruin from influencing a hemalurgically spiked Kandra, despite trying, then theoretically the same vulnerability in Kaladin - the same connection to Odium with Kaladin's unique passions - would also be a point to attack.

 

[Edit] Okay, I found this part:

 

So it looks like you are right about it being one spren, but it also confirms that spren can bond to people - bond - if their emotions line up.

Spren can be used as plural and singular. I will pull up the scene, but Kaladin and Co in the cognitive realm, or Venli being able to see into the cognitive realm, notice a large number of spren prior to them hopping into the bodies. I will edit this post to reflect that quote once I pull it up

 

edit: found it! it was Kaladin and Co, watching the army of spren disapear from the cognitive realm as they transitioned to bond sadeas's men in the physical realm. So definitely multiple spren. 

 

oathbringer page 1091

They joined him and watched as the strange army of spren began to vanish too, winking out in waves.

Edited by Pathfinder
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, CMac716 said:

My main issue is that you keep going back to passion, odium is 100% confirmed to be "divine hatred," not "passion." It's been a bit since I read OB (about a quarter of the way through WoR atm) so I don't recall exactly what kind of Voidspren Yixli is, but i dont feel passion is what Odium would be attracted to. 

That being said, Kaladin has shown to have plenty of hatred for those that harm the ones he cares about, so he could still easily attract one from that alone. Hating those that do dishonorable things... maybe that could lead to him ascending to both shards eventually?

I want to address that, but either way when Dalinar was shown by Odium his mandate, I think it was clear that Odium is more than anger, but anger is a large large part. I think that - and this is getting closer to Cosmere spoilers but not there yet - that Odium isn't passion in the sense that passion requires direction, and Odium's emotions aren't directed. And Odium keeps talking about Passion, and enjoying passion - read the chapter ... "Passion", to see that :-P

 

@Kalaksbreath Fair enough :-) it all depends on if Syl can realise the bond is happening, or that that is what she is feeling.

 

@Pathfinder noticed that a second before you posted ;-) thank you though :-) well spotted.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

11 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

I want to address that, but either way when Dalinar was shown by Odium his mandate, I think it was clear that Odium is more than anger, but anger is a large large part. I think that - and this is getting closer to Cosmere spoilers but not there yet - that Odium isn't passion in the sense that passion requires direction, and Odium's emotions aren't directed. And Odium keeps talking about Passion, and enjoying passion - read the chapter ... "Passion", to see that :-P

 

@Kalaksbreath Fair enough :-) it all depends on if Syl can realise the bond is happening, or that that is what she is feeling.

 

@Pathfinder noticed that a second before you posted ;-) thank you though :-) well spotted.

Spoiler

I was referring to the WoB that specifically says he is not passion. He lies to people, including himself about it. He is, and has been divine hatred since he picked up his shard.

 

Edited by CMac716
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

8 minutes ago, CMac716 said:
  Hide contents

I was referring to the WoB that specifically says he is not passion. He lies to people, including himself about it. He is, and has been divine hatred since he picked up his shard.

 

I think I know what you are quoting, but it doesn't say he isn't Passion, only that he isn't entirely correct, is lying to himself, but also that there is more to what he says than just him lying.

 

From chapter 57 Passion:

Quote

“No.” Dalinar stood. “You shouldn’t have revealed yourself, Odium. I once feared you, but it is easier to fear what you don’t understand. I’ve seen you now, and I can fight you.”
“You’ve seen me, have you? Curious.”
Odium smiled again.
Then everything went white. Dalinar found himself standing on a speck of nothingness that was the entire world, looking up at an eternal, all-embracing flame. It stretched in every direction, starting as red, moving to orange, then changing to blazing white.
Then somehow, the flames seemed to burn into a deep blackness, violet and angry.
This was something so terrible that it consumed light itself. It was hot. A radiance indescribable, intense heat and black fire, colored violet at the outside.
Burning.
Overwhelming.
Power.
It was the scream of a thousand warriors on the battlefield.
It was the moment of most sensual touch and ecstasy.
It was the sorrow of loss, the joy of victory.
And it was hatred. Deep, pulsing hatred with a pressure to turn all things molten. It was the heat of a thousand suns, it was the bliss of every kiss, it was the lives of all men wrapped up in one, defined by everything they felt.
Even taking in the smallest fraction of it terrified Dalinar. It left him tiny and frail. He knew if he drank of that raw, concentrated, liquid black fire, he’d be nothing in a moment. The entire planet of Roshar would puff away, no more consequential than the curling smoke of a snuffed-out candle.
It faded, and Dalinar found himself lying on the rock outside Feverstone Keep, staring upward. Above him, the sun seemed dim and cold. Everything felt frozen by contrast.

Mistborn spoilers:

Spoiler

This is similar to what Kelsier saw in Preservation, and Sazed when he felt Preservation and Ruin. This is sensing the shard's mandate - I don't think it can be tricked.

 

I think Odium is passion without Devotion, passion without Autonomy, passion without Ambition. Passion without those things, and more besides, isn't truly passion, but still is close to the idea even if it is incomplete.

Edited by Ixthos
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

I think I know what you are quoting, but it doesn't say he isn't Passion, only that he isn't entirely correct, is lying to himself, but also that there is more to what he says than just him lying.

 

From chapter 57 Passion:

Mistborn spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

This is similar to what Kelsier saw in Preservation, and Sazed when he felt Preservation and Ruin. This is sensing the shard's mandate - I don't think it can be tricked.

 

 

Spoiler

yulerule

Is there any connection with the thought that it's not Hatred? Because in Oathbringer, he says he's Passion?

Brandon Sanderson

He would claim that he's Passion and not Odium. But that is part of why I chose it. Hatred felt too on-the-nose, because there is quite arguably that step toward just being all Passion, and that's what he claims that he is.

yulerule

His own perception of himself, can perception, in the cosmere, can that influence?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it can influence.

yulerule

So the Shard's intent can--

Brandon Sanderson

Can be influenced by their perception and the holder's, yes.

 

 

So, given what he says, maybe what Dalinar is seeing is the potential of what the shard could be, not what it is with it's current holder. Rayse (iirc) was not the greatest person, so that would have influenced it and amplified the hatred and subdued the rest.

With the right Vessel, it very likely could be Passion. Or maybe because Rayse is actively trying to convince people he is Passion, it's starting to change the intent itself.

 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.