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Were there Spren on Ashyn?


CMac716

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I've seen a lot of theories about the Dawnshards being spren that were then turned into Unmade, but that would mean they originated on Ashyn since the Dawnshards were part of the planet's destruction... so either Spren were on Ashyn or the Unmade didn't come from the Dawnshards. Just idle speculation I suppose

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So to me, the real question here is whether the Voidspren are native to Braize, or if they're just trapped there as result of the Oathpact. If it's the former, then spren are probably a phenomenon that spans the entire Roshar system, and would therefore also exist on Ashyn. If not, and Odium presence hasn't spawned any native spren on Braize in the past ten thousands years, then we can conclude that spren are unique to Roshar the planet, and therefore wouldn't be present on Ashyn.

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4 hours ago, Gilphon said:

So to me, the real question here is whether the Voidspren are native to Braize, or if they're just trapped there as result of the Oathpact. If it's the former, then spren are probably a phenomenon that spans the entire Roshar system, and would therefore also exist on Ashyn. If not, and Odium presence hasn't spawned any native spren on Braize in the past ten thousands years, then we can conclude that spren are unique to Roshar the planet, and therefore wouldn't be present on Ashyn.

Sounds reasonable, but are voidspren trapped on braise or do the corrupted spren lose their connectiong to odium between desolations and revert back to normal spren. Odium doesn't seem to be able to affect Roshar much before a Herald breaks

From what I recall it's the Fused that get trapped there and they're cognitive shadows, not voidspren.

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Voidspren are odium ‘s spren specifically. They are not merely normal spren that have been corrupted. 

We know that after  desolations are over, fused as well as voidspren are trapped in braize. Ulim was the first voidspren who escaped somehow it is mentioned in the text. 

I don’t think that unmades however are trapped.. I think they remain. That further suggests that they originally were not of odium

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Yeah, Voidspren and corrupted spren are two different things- the former are spren created by Odium's influence- his equivalent of the Honorspren and Cultivationspren. It seems the Oathpact considers the difference between them and the Fused to be sufficiently esoteric that it catches them both- and indeed there are a few times when we've seen the word Voidspren being used to refer to Fused who currently lack bodies.

Whereas corrupted spren are products of Sja-Anat's ability, serving her rather than serving Odium directly. They probably shouldn't be affected by the Oathpact, since they're tied to Sja-Anat, who definitely isn't. As far as we know, corrupting sapient spren like Glys and the Kholinar Oathgate is something she's learned how to do recently, so creatures like Ulim and Yixli, who appear to have been as they for quite a while, can be inferred to something different.

Edited by Gilphon
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13 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

 

Whereas corrupted spren are products of Sja-Anat's ability, serving her rather than serving Odium directly. They probably shouldn't be affected by the Oathpact, since they're tied to Sja-Anat, who definitely isn't. As far as we know, corrupting sapient spren like Glys and the Kholinar Oathgate is something she's learned how to do recently, so creatures like Ulim and Yixli, who appear to have been as they for quite a while, can be inferred to something different.

Agree about sjanat and also agree that she learnt to corrupt sapient spren recently. 

But ulim and yixli are not corrupted spren they I believe are voidspren version of truespren I think. 

They I think if bonded by someone, should give them voidbinding. 

The lesser voidspren are like stormspren that are captured by singers into their gemhearts to attain forms of power

when they capture normal spren which are of honor or cultivation then I believe they get normal forms like work form, warform, etc. 

also I think that if spren like ulim, voidtruespren form bonds with humans or may be even singers ( seems unlikely because if it could be done, then it would have been done, but who knows once Venli’s secret will come out then may be odium will try it with his spren too) it will make them voidbinders. But I think it has to be through some other means, not oaths. Because odium is all about emotions and mindset right? 

Also the problem I see here is that emotions are ever changing and mind sets can change. So May be such bonds are not very stable. 

 

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Gotcha, my mistake. I thought voidspren were all from sja-anat, not directly from Odium. I guess that means potentially there were voidspren on Ashyn while Odium was there, but if that's the case, they I dont think they would be considered unmade but they could potentially have been the Dawnshards. 

If you buy into the theory that it requires a shards own investiture to kill it, that explains why Honor implied humans need them to defeat Odium. It would also explain why they were taken away from/lost to humans since the Shards switched beings apparently. 

 

Edit: by switched beings I meant the sentient species they backed

Edited by CMac716
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2 minutes ago, CMac716 said:

Gotcha, my mistake. I thought voidspren were all from sja-anat, not directly from Odium. I guess that means potentially there were voidspren on Ashyn while Odium was there, but if that's the case, they I dont think they would be considered unmade but they could potentially have been the Dawnshards. 

If you buy into the theory that it requires a shards own investiture to kill it, that explains why Honor implied humans need them to defeat Odium. It would also explain why they were taken away from/lost to humans since the Shards switched beings apparently. 

i like this idea, so if like i suggested, voidtruespren if form bonds with humans and grant them surges, 

then would they grant shards too. the only thing is that shard would be a dawnshard?

after all that would explain why dawnshards were there in Ashyn and why they are lost t humans now...

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It also works with the poem about them binding any being since we're know now they bind with singers 

 

I think my major concern with this theory is that 9 seems to be Odium's number, and (iirc) there were 10 Dawnshards.

Edited by CMac716
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4 hours ago, The traveller said:

yup i am also not entirely sure about the dawnshard resulting from a voidbond. And there are other theories linking them to unmades which may be more plausible.

Since even unmades are not clear if they are 9 or 10..

Undmades there definitely 9.

XS-Terrain

Also, does each of the Unmade have a corresponding order of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Eh... Kind of.

XS-Terrain

Ok. So there are nine Unmade right, so which one is left out?

Brandon Sanderson

Bondsmith. But it's not as one to one, there's some fuzziness in there.

 

We dont know the number of Dawnshards though, just that one is different from the rest. :/

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34 minutes ago, The traveller said:

I was referring to hessi s mythica whereshe says it is not clear whether they are 9 or 10

My research into the Unmade has convinced me that these things were not simply "spirits of the void" or "nine shadows who moved in the night." They were each a specific kind of spren, endowed with vast powers. 

—Hessi's Mythica, page 3

It will not take a careful reader to ascertain that I have only mention eight of the Unmade here. Lore is confident there were nine, an unholy number, asymmetrical and often associated with the enemy. 

—Hessi's Mythica, page 266

I am certain there are nine Unmade. There are many legends and names I could have misinterpreted, conflating two Unmade into one. In the next section, I will discuss my theories on this. 

—Hessi's Mythica, page 266
 
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